London Metropolitan Archives?

[stella]

I'm hoping sks would be able to try to find my rellie please. Francis Wenlock HOLTON born 1799/ 1800 (stu, yep it's me again!) I need look-ups for Holy Trinity, Clapham. Details baptisms 1792-1803 - XO78/020
Index X102/110
Transcripts of baptims 1799 XO14/129

Would really appreciate it, only when convenient.
Thanks again, Stella, Australia

[Patrisia]

Hi Stella,

No promises but I will have a try when I go later in the month - as long as I get there ;)

[stella]

Hi Patrisia,

Many thanks for offering to look-up, here's hoping!!
Stella

[Peter Goodey]

For the benefit of anyone who might be in a position to look for you, it might have been helpful to have mentioned that the church is in the IGI for that period (albeit BTs) and that your person isn't listed.

[stella]

Hello there Peter,

I was not aware of those details ie:IGI. I simply went on the lMA web site & found the index numbers etc. Obviously I needed to check the IGI also. Apologies.

To Patrisia,
Please do not try for a look-up for me, Peter has pointed out other steps I should have taken. I do apologise, & thanks for offering so kindly.

We learn something new each day-thank goodness

Stella

[stella]

Peter,
Just thinking a bit, I thought that the IGI was not complete, & I chose Holy Trinity in Clapham, as it is near to Francis's earliest census. If so, how on earth do I find Francis's parents?
I'm just about ready to give this line in, London is just too big for me!Or maybe I'm missing something?
Any ideas's would be most helpful
Kind Regards, Stella

[Peter Goodey]

I sympathise. A couple of my lines have come to a grinding halt in London. Do you have his marriage? I wonder if there were any clues shown eg possible siblings, 'by licence' etc.

[stella]

Peter,

I have Francis Wenlock HOLTON married to Sophia CHANDLER by banns in 1823, at St.Mary's Lambeth. They both stated that they were of this parish. Witnesses were a William Sefton (no clues there so far) & Thomas Chandler. That's it.

[Patrisia]

Hi Stella,
More questions!

Can you give us more detail about the census entry ie. which year?
How did you get the idea of Clapham etc?
There are a couple of other churches, Independent etc but even the IGI batch numbers site doesn't help too much.

If you could pin down the place a little more, it might still be worth looking at the LMA.

[stella]

Hello Patrisia,

I have the details (sks found them)of the 1841 census, ref H107 736 ED 10 f 17 page 99, which has Francis 35 born London, Sophia (wife) 35 born out of London.living at 9 Titchborn st, Piccadilly.
I found their banns marriage in St.Mary's Lambeth in 1823, which states they were both of this parish. Francis died in 1844, Sophia died in 1848. I tried for Clapham simply by process of elimination ? Not such a good idea:o
I also found his will which states he was in partnership with a F.Thomas a glass & china merchant.in Piccadilly. This was written by Francis 9 days before he died.
Little bits I know, not yet clicking unfortunately.
Thanks for your time much appreciated, Stella

[Patrisia]

I have the details (sks found them)of the 1841 census, ref H107 736 ED 10 f 17 page 99, which has Francis 35 born London, Sophia (wife) 35 born out of London.living at 9 Titchborn st, Piccadilly.Oh dear, the proverbial needle in a haystack! :(



I found their banns marriage in St.Mary's Lambeth in 1823, which states they were both of this parish. Francis died in 1844, Sophia died in 1848. I tried for Clapham simply by process of elimination ? It could be that it was the bride's parish; or that they were just staying there - as I found with my g2.gr.parents!
As you have the witnesses, I don't think it would be worth looking at the LMA for anything else; and it doesn't sound as if the will gives any more clues.

I must confess I'm stumped, it would mean trawling through all the London PRs, starting with Lambeth, on the off-chance that you might find him - unless anyone else has any bright ideas?

[stella]

Hello Patrisia,

Many thanks for your reply. I'm glad someone else feels the same! I thought I was missing something. At least I know now I have to do the ploughig parish by parish.
I really do appreciate your help & knowledge, thanks so much.
Stella:)

[Peter Goodey]

"...living at 9 Titchborn st, Piccadilly"
Interesting. The 1841 London PO Directory shows "Thomas, Ferdinand, china dealer" at 9 Titchbourne St, Haymarket. Presumably that's your F Thomas. Were they living with him? Or just 'over the shop'?

[Mythology]

"I have the details (sks found them)of the 1841 census, ref H107 736 ED 10 f 17 page 99, which has Francis 35 born London, Sophia (wife) 35 born out of London."

I'll bet it doesn't.

The 1841 has Y or N for whether or not the person was born in the same *county*. There is, historically, no such thing as the county of London, and even that bureaucratic invention, the administrative county of London, did not exist in 1841.
HO107/736, St James Westminster, is Middlesex. Therefore, if the census information is correct, Francis was born in Middlesex, Sophia was not.

Now, it is very true that there is often no apparent logic to baptisms - I have, for instance, a fellow who consistently states that he was born in Paddington. I believe him - all the evidence regarding younger siblings suggests that the family did not live in Paddington *after* he was born, so he would not have *thought* that he was born in Paddington because of growing up there.
There is no baptism for him in Paddington, nor in St Pancras, which is where those younger siblings were born.
He is consistent on his age, and should be born April 1817 to April 1818.
I found him quite by accident while looking for somebody else - a nice baptism record which gives a birth date of 2 February 1818, a baptism date of 9 November 1818, some nine months later, and has the parents address as Cumberland Street, St Pancras.
So, if he is correct about being born in Paddington, the family moved to St Pancras some time in those nine months, no problem there.
The baptism is at St Giles in the Fields.

So, it can indeed be like looking for a needle in a haystack, but from what that 1841 census entry says, as Sophia was *not* born in Middlesex, my thought would be that what we have here is probably simply the usual thing of the marriage being in the bride's parish, Lambeth being in Surrey. The phrase "of this Parish" is virtually meaningless, a theoretical residential qualification of a mere four weeks with no proof being required, so it is quite possible that the groom wasn't even living there at the time!

If this fellow were mine, I would, therefore, cross my fingers that he's simply gone there to grab the girl and, as he's living in Westminster in 1841, hope that's where he came from, and Westminster is where I'd start looking, certainly not Clapham or anywhere else in Surrey.

[stella]

To Peter,
Yes,That's the right address for Ferdinand Thomas (Francis's partner), I think he must have been living there also, as he died there too.:( Thank you for searching the London Directory,Cheers:)

To Mythology,
Many thanks for your knowledge, it helps to know someone else goes down the same road,good on you for finding one of your relatives! & obviously you've been digging for your people alot longer than myself! It's really "reading between the lines" is'nt it. I'll go with your suggestion, I've looked up the LDS, & it looks like I've got 7 churches to order films for.I'll do it one by one, as I DO enjoy reading them, it's fascinating stuff!
Once again thank you. Will no doubt let everyone know if I should find him:D
Kind Regards, Stella