'1933 Who's Who in Methodism' & 'Hill's Arrangement'

[mary elms]

I shall be visiting my parents on the 20th September and would be happy to do some lookups in these two books while I'm there.

'Who's Who in Methodsism 1933' contains details of ministers and those lay people who were Circuit office holders when the Weslyan, United Methodist & Primitive Methodist Churches united to form The Methodist Church in 1932.

Hall's Arrangement' is a list of circuits with their ministers. The lists are online here

http://rylibweb.man.ac.uk/data1/dg/methodist/ministers/minister.html

[EDIT - My parents' copy is the 1912 edition and contains Wesleyan circuits & ministers up to and including 1912]

There is more information on some of the names and if anyone wants me to check on a name I will be happy to do so.

Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hello again Mary,

I was just copying and pasting from my file, to give you some info re my Stephen, in the other message thread. By the time I'd sorted it and posted my reply, this one of yours was already on! :)

Thank you very much for the offer.

[mary elms]

You're welcome Diane. I hope there's something more there for you. The occasional Methodist questions on this site tend to appear just after I've got back from Devon :( so I thought I'd try it this way round! :) Kate's question was no exception - it just happens that I've got to go back sooner than usual this time.

Mary.

[Val Goddard]

My great grandfather was Reverend William Dance GUNSTONE a New Connexions Minister. He died in 1935. At that time he was chaplain at some almshouses in Sheffield. If either of the books give any other information and you have time I would be very grateful - keep meaning to get to Manchester and never quite make it! Home email [email protected]

[mary elms]

Hello Val,

The Methodist New Connexion was formed in 1797. In 1907 they joined with the Bible Christians & the United Methodist Free Churches to become the United Methodist Church. They in turn joined with the Wesleyans and the Primitive Methodists in 1932 to form the Methodist Church.

William D Gunstone is definately in Hill's Arrangement where he's listed as a United Methodist minister - see

http://rylibweb.man.ac.uk/data1/dg/methodist/ministers/t4.html#G

And he's probably in Who's Who too. I'll gladly add him to the list.

Mary.

[Val Goddard]

Yes I had found him some time ago in the link you gave.
Thanks for adding him to the list.
When I very first started searching censuses his job had been transcribed as a New Conner Minder (or New Connexions Minister as I later discovered) - don't you love it!

Val

[mary elms]

When I very first started searching censuses his job had been transcribed as a New Conner Minder:D Now on this one I think I'll have to sympathize with the transcriber - even Methodists have trouble with Connexion - a word we still use to the bafflement of many members. :D

Mary.

[mary elms]

Val,

I've e-mailed these details to you but thought I'd post them here as well as they give a good picture of what's in the 1933 Who's Who for the ministers.

From 'Who's Who in Methodism 1933'

GUNSTONE, William D.
born: 1856 at Deptford
Theological College: Ranmoor
entered ministry: 1880 (U)
married: Annie Walker of Dewsbury
four sons three daughters
Circuits: Newcastle-under-Lyne, Manchester, Dewsbury, Newark, Hull, Oldham, Chester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Barrow-in-Furness, Halifax N, Ashton, Rawtenstall, Chaplain of Firth's Almshouses 1927
Publications: Companion to Minutes of Conference 1889 and 1896
Address: The Chaplaincy, Firth's Almshouses, Sheffield

Mary.

[mary elms]

Diane,

Hall's Arrangement is an alphabetical list of circuits with their ministers. I found Stephen in 12 circuits but there are some gaps. Like trawling through a census (only fortunately not handwritten) the gaps don't necessarily mean he's not there - just that I didn't spot him. I'd be happy to have another look next time I have access to the book.

I found Stephen FORREST (sic) in the following circuits -

1864 Halifax Place, Nottingham
1870-72 Hebden Bridge
1873-75 West Bromwich
1879-81 St Peter's, Leeds
1882-84 Wesley, Halifax
1885-87 Longsight, Manchester
1888-90 Bury
1891 Radnor Street, Manchester
1892-94 Shipley, Bradford
1895-97 Gledholt, Huddersfield
1898-1900 Blackburn
1901-03 Hill Top, West Bromwich


Mary.

PS - You probably know this but just in case - 1) These are circuits, not churches. They may cover a large or a small area depending on local circumstances. 2) The Methodist year runs from September to August which is why, for instance, Stephen is in Bury on the 1891 census.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Mary,

|bowdown| Thank you so much for all this information and for telling me about the 'Methodist year' as I didn't know that!

I've just looked at my file and spotted that I don't have Stephen in the 1851, 1861 and 1871 Censuses. I've got his Parents, but didn't realise that Stephen isn't with them. I should be able to pick him up on Ancestry for two of them, thanks to you, I know to look in Hebden Bridge in 1871.

He didn't start preaching until 1863, so I don't know where he was in 1861, or ten years before that! In 1851, he would only be about 9 years old ...... do you know if future Preachers attended 'special' Schools or anything? Otherwise, I don't know where he can be, as I would have expected him to be with his Parents, but he isn't with them in 1851 or 1861.

Your book goes up to 1912 I believe, do you know of any later editions please? At least I know which year to search for his death, again ..... thanks to you!

[mary elms]

Hello Diane,

There's a list of Methodist Publications and their dates on the Methodist Archives site at this page

http://rylibweb.man.ac.uk/data1/dg/methodist/methguid.html

There were a number of Methodist Boarding Schools to which people might have sent their children but not particularly to make them preachers. They were sometimes used by ministers to give their children a consistant education because they moved so often.

Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Snap Mary! Now it's my turn to say that I missed that link! ;) I'll have a read and find out what's there.

Perhaps Stephen told his Father at an early age, that he would like to be a Methodist Minister, so he possibly went to one of the Schools? His Papa was quite well-to-do and could afford it ...... the only one who had any dosh! :cool:

If I can find Stephen anywhere, I'll let you know.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Mary,

I've just found Stephen in the 1861 Census. |woohoo|
I must have had a sike-kic (can't spell that word!) flash yesterday, as he is Assistant Master to Wesleyan Local Preacher, (John Pryce JONES) in Oswestry .

It's a School with 16 Pupil Boarders, so I got the pupil bit wrong then!

[mary elms]

Hello Diane,

Congratulations!

? Psychic ?


Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Mary,

Oh, that's how you spell it! Trouble is, it won't 'stay' in my brain, so I gave up trying ...... my friends all know that I've got a block with this word!

[Val Goddard]

Thanks so much for that information - there were some things I did not know before.

Val

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Mary,

I've just popped in to give you an update on my Stephen, (I've been doing some gardening today and chatting on the phone!) ;)

He certainly flits about, as I found him in 1871, living at Scout Road Wesleyan Chapel & School, Sowerby, Halifax, with his unmarried sister, Ruth. I was pleased to find out that he has passed his *test* and is now a Wesleyan Minister! :D

[mary elms]

there were some things I did not know before. :cool: that's always nice!


He certainly flits about, as I found him in 1871, living at Scout Road Wesleyan Chapel & School, Sowerby, Halifax, with his unmarried sister, Ruth. :) That certainly makes sense for Hebden Bridge Circuit! So I wonder where the 9 year old Stephen went to school? Was the Oswestry school around in 1851? Was he a pupil there before becoming assistant master?

Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

So I wonder where the 9 year old Stephen went to school? Was the Oswestry school around in 1851? Was he a pupil there before becoming assistant master?

Mary.
I was thinking the same as you Mary, as his Parents and Uncles are all living in Staffordshire in 1851 and he's not with any of them. I've just been to Genuki Shropshire for a look-see, so will have to put my thinking-cap on now, as to how to track him down ;)

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Mary,
He's got to be a pupil at the School! |woohoo| I will do my best to obtain a copy of the census page, so will have a look at Shropshire FHS to see if they can get me one? Anyway, the transcription from Family History Online, says that Stephen Forest aged 10, is living in Oswestry Town, so it looks good!

[mary elms]

:) Cor you've been busy! I await the next installment!

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

I was being naughty and decided to leave starting the ironing for a bit longer! |blush| ....... but now I shall sail through it! Thank you so much Mary for all your help, it's because you gave me so much info as to Stephen's whereabouts over the years, it's made me want to find out as much as I can about him.

Definitely going offline now to get some work done! :D

[mary elms]

:confused: Ironing :confused:

Oh, you mean flattening clothes ...... that gets done on a need to wear basis in this house ....... |laugh1|

Have fun,

Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Mary,

I've just found Stephen in the 1861 Census. |woohoo|
He is Assistant Master to Wesleyan Local Preacher, (John Pryce JONES) in Oswestry.

It's a School with 16 Pupil Boarders, so I got the pupil bit wrong then!

Re being a Pupil at this School in 1851:

I was thinking the same as you Mary, as his Parents and Uncles are all living in Staffordshire in 1851 and he's not with any of them.

So who forgot about his sisters?????


Hi Mary,
He's got to be a pupil at the School! |woohoo| I will do my best to obtain a copy of the census page, so will have a look at Shropshire FHS to see if they can get me one? Anyway, the transcription from Family History Online, says that Stephen Forest aged 10, is living in Oswestry Town, so it looks good!
continued ....... Can you guess what's coming next?

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

continued .....

I decided to chase up the Census for Stephen's sisters (haven't worked on the Forrest file for a while now, as I like change!) One of them is Sarah, who is a widow in 1891 and living back home with her Father. I entered in my file that she was married to Unknown Jones!!!!

Even then, I didn't *twig* ...... so brain must have gone to sleep with the ironing, so I did a search on her full names, year and place of birth. It turned out (as you have probably guessed by now) that the census image page was exactly the same one that I have for Stephen. I thought the address was familiar when I spotted it! |blush|

Yes, she is the wife of John Pryce JONES as per previous messages! :D

continued ......

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

continued .....
I shot back into Family History Online and did an 1851 Census search for John Pryce JONES in Shropshire. I have the transcription, same as for Stephen, the reference numbers are the same:
HO107/1993/605/37
so he's a pupil at the School, with his Uncle John as The Boss.

Don't panic Mary with the next thing I found! :D In the 1871 Census for John Pryce JONES, an Assistant Master is his other nephew, William ...... Stephen's younger brother! I was going to ask you for look-ups in your book for these two, but William is a Furniture Dealer in 1891 living with his Dad, so he musn't have liked preaching. John Pryce JONES died somewhere between 1871 and 1881, as I found Sarah as a widow in the later census. I suppose his name doesn't appear on the list of the link you posted, because he must have left the Ministry before his death.

[mary elms]

Yes, she is the wife of John Pryce JONES as per previous messages! ;) Glad I'm not the only one who does this!


John Pryce JONES died somewhere between 1871 and 1881, as I found Sarah as a widow in the later census. I suppose his name doesn't appear on the list of the link you posted, because he must have left the Ministry before his death. Ah, but we Local Preachers aren't Ministers, Diane. We preach in our "spare time". John Pryce JONES was trained to take preaching services. Only under special dispensation in truely unusual circumstances might he be allowed to administer the sacraments and I'm not sure what the Wesleyan rules were so I can't say if this would have been allowed at all. He wasn't ordained so he wouldn't be on the clergy list. Judging from his census returns he was a teacher. If you want to find out more about him you need to follow the ideas here -

http://rylibweb.man.ac.uk/data1/dg/methodist/methguid.html

No 3 If your Anscestor was a Local Preacher

Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Thank you for explaining Mary ...... I'm not well up on Methodism at all as you can tell! My late Aunt who was baptised C of E, started going to her Village Methodist Chapel about 30 years ago, but I never asked her why as I think a person's religion is their own choice.

The thing I do regret, is not listening properly when she told me that one of my FAWCETT Ancestors had *something* to do with the set-up of a Moravian Chapel in Heckmondwike, so now I have no idea who or when! |shakehead

[mary elms]

OK - trying to avoid some paperwork so couldn't resist seeing what I could find! ;) You probably know all this already but here goes -

A transcription of Baines Directory 1822 gives - Fawcett George, hat manufacturer in Birstall

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Birstall/Birstall22Dry.html

A transcription of Pigot's directory 1834 gives - James Fawcett, hat munfacturer & dealer in Birstall.
It also says there was a Moravian School at Gomersall with the Rev. Benjamin Beck as its master and a Moravian Chapel. In fact the place is a veritale non-conformist hot-bed "The only places of worship are a chapel each belonging to the Moravians, Wesleyan methodists, and calvinists." :D Much the same wording can be found in 1829

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Birstall/Birstall34Dry.html
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Birstall/Birstall34.html
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Birstall/Birstall29.html

A transcription of White's directory 1837 for Heckmondwike gives

James Fawcett, blanket manufacturer

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Birstall/Birstall37Dry.html

The births, baptisms and burials registers 1788-1937 (EDIT - that should, of course be 1837) for YORKSHIRE: Gomersall (Moravian) (Limited Brethren) are kept at TNA in Kew - RG4 / 3031 - They might give you some clues and certainly an idea of dates.

S'pose I'd better do that paperwork now as I've run out of avoidance ideas! :(

Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Mary,
Thanks for trying to help, but my FAWCETT's weren't 'posh' enough to be hat manufacturers! They lived in Heckmondwike but were all baptised etc. at Birstall, so I have looked at Genuki (a great place) for the surrounding villages, but thanks for thinking of me and posting the links.

If only (which are two of the saddest words) we had started all these threads a year ago ...... I could have asked my Aunt exactly what she knew! :(

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Mary,

After someone new contacted me last week re my FORREST's, I looked at my file, which has gathered dust for quite some time now and I found this in Stephen's notes:

Stephen became a Wesleyan Minister in 1863 and he was still preaching, when he died in 1923.

Hall's Arrangement is an alphabetical list of circuits with their Ministers - Stephen is in 12 circuits but there are some gaps:

1864 Halifax Place, Nottingham
1870-72 Hebden Bridge
1873-75 West Bromwich
1879-81 St Peter's, Leeds
1882-84 Wesley, Halifax
1885-87 Longsight, Manchester
1888-90 Bury, Lancashire
1891 Radnor Street, Manchester
1892-94 Shipley, Bradford
1895-97 Gledholt, Huddersfield
1898-1900 Blackburn, Lancashire
1901-03 Hill Top, West Bromwich

N.B.
These are circuits, not Churches. They may cover a large or a small area depending on local circumstances.
The Methodist year runs from September to August which is why, for instance, Stephen is in Bury on the 1891 Census and Blackburn on the 1901 Census.

The majority of this, is copied from your message 9 in this thread, but this bit:

Stephen became a Wesleyan Minister in 1863 and he was still preaching, when he died in 1923.

isn't on it. |sad1|

I can't think where I've got that from? If you didn't tell me that, has my imagination gone into overdrive?

It's *floored* me, not being able to find the source of that info, as I was going to ask if you knew whether he died abroad, as after trawling the death indexes from 1920-1925, I couldn't find him.

Is it me ...... quietly going round the bend? ;)

[mary elms]

Diane,

The info didn't come directly from me but I had a little look round and it would seem to have come from Hill's Arrangement as listed on what used to be the Methodist Archives and Research Centre site. You can find this on the Wayback machine here -

http://web.archive.org/web/20070712035511/rylibweb.man.ac.uk/data1/dg/methodist/ministers/minister.html

Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

|bowdown| Mary ....... Thank you so much for finding the information for me. Better late than never, I've now made a note in my file of where it came from, which I should have done in the first place! |blush|

Have a good weekend.

[mary elms]

Diane,

It looks like he probably "sat down" (i.e. retired from full-time ministry) in August 1904 since the last appointment is 1901-1903. That would make complete sense of his dates as that would mean that he did his full 40 years. Note that I said 'full-time ministry'. As a supernumery he would probably have gone on preaching and may even have accepted pastoral responsibilities. The question, as you say, is - where? Ministers & Probationers of Methodism (otherwise refered to as Hill's arrangement because he started it) may have more information though it may just give you a shorter version of the information you already have. The edition the archives were using was 1969.

Hope that helps,

Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Many thanks for the explanation Mary. :)

He may have gone back to Wales then, for although his parents were dead in 1904, most of his siblings and their families were still there.

[mary elms]

Diane,

I now have a copy of the 1963 edition of 'Ministers and Probationers of Methodism'. The information in the index about Stephen Forest is all there is - just his name, the year he commenced his ministry and the year he died.

Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Many thanks again Mary. :)

What a pity that Stephen became so 'elusive' in the end. With all the information you gave me and all the census returns ....... I can't 'bury' him! |sad1|

When I trawled through the death indexes, I did look for Forest and Forrest, but found nothing. As soon as I can, I'll have another look, just in case I missed him, but if I find nothing again ....... perhaps he was *beamed up* to heaven?? ;)

[mary elms]

....... perhaps he was *beamed up* to heaven?? ;)Well now ... they say that Enoch and Elijah were, so why not |angel| Stephen Forest?! ;)

Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

|jumphappy Why not indeed, Mary! At least it would save the family the cost of a funeral! ;)

[mary elms]

Diane,

I was trawling through Hall's Arrangement this evening looking for someone else and I hadn't got very far before I spotted one Stephen FORREST - and when I checked, it was an appointment that I didn't find last time!

1867-69 Accrington Circuit


Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Mary :)

Wow! What a memory you have ....... remembering *my Stephen* after all this time! :)

Thank you so much for the extra piece of info. After reading your message in my inbox, I shot straight into my family tree programme and amended the list before coming here! It looks very good, thanks to you ...... only two gaps. :)

Hall's Arrangement is an alphabetical list of circuits with their Ministers - Stephen is in 13 circuits but there are some gaps:

1864 Halifax Place, Nottingham
1867-69 Accrington Circuit
1870-72 Hebden Bridge
1873-75 West Bromwich
1879-81 St Peter's, Leeds
1882-84 Wesley, Halifax
1885-87 Longsight, Manchester
1888-90 Bury, Lancashire
1891 Radnor Street, Manchester
1892-94 Shipley, Bradford
1895-97 Gledholt, Huddersfield
1898-1900 Blackburn, Lancashire
1901-03 Hill Top, West Bromwich

[mary elms]

It's amazing how, when you're not looking for someone, they turn up all over the place. I can fill another of your gaps Diane!

1876-78 Stephen Forrest was in the Farnworth circuit, Bolton.


Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

|bowdown| Thank you so much Mary, you're a real gem!

If only I knew exactly where the rest of my D&D's were, with such detail as you've given me. ;)

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Diane,

I now have a copy of the 1963 edition of 'Ministers and Probationers of Methodism'. The information in the index about Stephen Forest is all there is - just his name, the year he commenced his ministry and the year he died.

Mary.

Hi Mary,

In a previous message, you said that Stephen probably 'retired' in 1904, as he had done his 40 years, but could the year he died be wrong?

Forest, Stephen W (Wesleyan) 1863 - 1923

I have just found this entry on FreeBMD:

Deaths Dec 1915 (>99%)
Forrest Stephen 74 W. Bromwich 6b 1049

Stephen was born in September 1841, so this death may be his, as he was in W. Bromich in 1903? What do you think please?

[mary elms]

Hello Diane,

It's the right name and the right age in the right place.

The info in 'Ministers and Probationers of Methodism' can't claim to be 100% accurate. Transcription and manually collected information rarely is - there's always that moment of lost concentration!

I'd say the chances are high that this is your Stephen especially if you can't find him in 1923.

Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Mary,

Thank you for your opinion. :)

Somewhere in this long thread, I did say that I'd looked at the death indexes on Ancestry, for the years 1920 to 1925 for Forest and Forrest, with no success.

Hopefully, in a couple of weeks time, (as that series starts again on Wednesday!) I'll be able to tell you whether or not it's the right cert!

I'll order it today, before the rush ....... then it's bread and water for the rest of the week, as I ordered two certs yesterday. ;)

[mary elms]

Let me know if it is ... then we'll know where to start looking to see if there's an obituary.

Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Thank you Mary ....... I wouldn't know where to start looking. :o

[Val Goddard]

I was interested to read you had a new Methodist Preachers book and wondered if it contained any more information on William Dance Gunstone (1856 - 1935) - you kindly hepled me some time ago. I do have indications of the various places he was posted gleaned from censuses and also births of his 7 children but it would be great to have more precise dates.
Val

[mary elms]

Hello Val,

The only information I have on William Dance GUNSTONE is the information from the 1933 Who's Who of Methodism which I posted earlier in this thread on the 24th September 2005 -


From 'Who's Who in Methodism 1933'

GUNSTONE, William D.
born: 1856 at Deptford
Theological College: Ranmoor
entered ministry: 1880 (U)
married: Annie Walker of Dewsbury
four sons three daughters
Circuits: Newcastle-under-Lyne, Manchester, Dewsbury, Newark, Hull, Oldham, Chester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Barrow-in-Furness, Halifax N, Ashton, Rawtenstall, Chaplain of Firth's Almshouses 1927
Publications: Companion to Minutes of Conference 1889 and 1896
Address: The Chaplaincy, Firth's Almshouses, SheffieldUnfortunately it doesn't have dates but using a working hypothesis of around 3 years per circuit (perhaps a couple more for the later circuits) adjusted when you know a date for sure from another source will probably get you about right. Hope that helps.

Mary.

PS - The book I was using for Diane - Hall's Arrangement - sadly only lists Wesleytan circuits and ministers.

[Val Goddard]

Thanks very much for that

Val

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Mary :)

I think I'm going to be disappointed. I told a friend I'd ordered Stephen's death cert last Sunday and this is his reply:

***********

I hope it's your fellow, but I have a feeling it may well not be.
What I always do with something like that is...

Check the 1901 and see if there's anyone else just as likely!

Your fellow:
Stephen Forrest, aged 59, born Tollend Tipton Staffordshire - he must be the 1841 Sep Q Dudley RD birth.

Another fellow:
Stephen Forrest, aged 60, born Cradley Worcestershire - he must be the 1841 Mar Q Stourbridge RD birth.

And although they are different ages on the 1901 census, because of the time of year, they would both be 74 in 1915 Dec Q, wouldn't they?

And where is Stephen Cradley Stick-in-the-mud Forrest in 1901?
Just along the road in Wednesbury, which is West Bromwich RD.
Your gallivanting bible-basher is more likely to have moved, possibly emigrated, in the intervening years than the Cradley fellow, isn't he?

If I didn't have an alternative candidate, I'd assume that the Methodist 1923 date was wrong, and risk the £7.
But when there's an alternative candidate staring me in the face, I'd assume that the Methodist info was right, that Steve the Rev has fallen over outside England and Wales, and let the moths continue to sleep on my £7.

*************

Looks like Stephen will have to remain *on the Stairway to Heaven* doesn't it? |sad1|

[mary elms]

In that case we need to see if we can find a 1923 obituary.

I'm just stopping off at home for a few days between excursions but I'll think on it ... perhaps I'll have an |idea|

Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

The death certificate has just arrived and I'm now upset about the cause of death (as is my norm) ....... even though he is a total stranger! |sad1|

Stephen FORREST of 9 Trouse Lane, Wednesbury, Staffordshire died 17 December 1915 aged 74 years.

Occupation: Formerly an Ironworks Labourer

Cause of death:
1. Diabetes
2. Gangrene of Foot
3. Heart Failure ......... Certified by E.A. Dingley M.D.

Informant: Emma SHENSTON - Daughter, Present at the death 9 Trouse Lane, Wednesbury

All my working life, I was a cashier/book-keeper for firms of Solicitors' and I never once *cooked* the books, but how about this, seeing as I am now retired?

My Stephen got fed up of his profession after forty years, so he decided to have a complete change and went to work in the local ironworks, sometime after 1904?
Perhaps daughter Emma's birth, baptism, marriage records and census returns were all lost or destroyed?

Answers on a postcard please! |laugh1|

[chrisj1961]

Hi - I don't know if anybody could help me but I am after information on Arthur Wharton Hall, who was a methodist minister from 1890 upto his death in 1955.

Many thanks for any help :)

Chris

[mary elms]

Is this him? This is from the ministers section of Who's Who in Methodism 1933

HALL, Arthur W T Coll. Didsbury e.m. 1890 (W) Circuits: Supply; Gold Coast W A; Blackpool; Bradford; Wind Hill; Penrith; Bacup; Nottingham, Wes; Birmingham, Aston Park; Margate; Hull, Waltham St; Halifax, St John's; Newton Abbot; Super. Address c/o Rev S Swithenbank, Birches, Keswick, Cumberland.

Abbreviations
T Coll. = Training College
W A = West Africa
(W) = Wesleyan

Mary.

[mary elms]

Sorry, I missed an abreviation -

e.m. = entered the ministry

Mary.

[mary elms]

Assuming that this is your fellow then -

He's a Wesleyan so I looked in Hall's Circuits and Ministers 1765-1912

This is arranged by circuits rather than by ministers so it helps to know where someone was. Using the information from the 1933 Who's Who I found some dates for his earlier appointments -

Blackpool 1894 - 1896
Bradford (Wind Hill) 1897 - 1899
Penrith 1900 - 1902
Bacup 1903 - 1905
Notingham (Wesley) 1906 - 1908
Birmingham (Aston Park) 1909 - 1911
Margate 1912


Mary.

[chrisj1961]

Can I just say, thank you so much - have been working today so I have just looked at it - yep - that is my man, my 2x great uncle, I knew he was a methodist minister but had no idea on how to find out where he was based.

I am creating a book for my uncle on his relatives or his christmas present and this will go down very well.

Once again, thanks very much xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[mary elms]

Ah ... now that sounds familiar ... writing a book for my father was how my sister and I started this quite a number of years ago. She has stayed with the original project and is now working on one for my mother - and I have branched out as it were!

If you can cross the border to Manchester it might be worth arranging to go to the John Rylands Library (where the main Methodist Archives are kept) to see if they can help you with the rest of Arthur's carreer.

http://www.library.manchester.ac.uk/specialcollections/collections/methodist/

If they have copies of the Wesleyan Methodist Magazines for 1891, 1892 or 1893 it might be worth looking at the Missionary notices. There might just be something that mentions him, his travel arrangements, or is written by him. I'm afraid the nearest one I've got is 1895.

The Methodist Missionary Society archives are kept at SOAS -

http://www.soas.ac.uk/library/

Have fun!

Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Mary,

I have received an email from a contact of mine, (part of it is below) ...... would you mind looking in your book again please, to see if you can find anything? |bowdown|

*************************

Weslyan Methodist Chapel in Holmfirth.

As a matter of interest, my husband's maternal grandfather, Harry RHODES, was reputed to be the minister there during Eleanor's childhood. Not sure of the accuracy of this, as he's listed on census returns as being a newsagent.

I've emailed the church to ask them to check their records, but I have had no reply. Perhaps he was a lay preacher at times? We have been told it was called the Zion Methodist Chapel.

************************

(Eleanor was born 23 Sep 1904)

[mary elms]

Hello Diane,

I can't find a Harry RHODES on any of the lists. That doesn't mean he didn't exist. Was his name actually Harry or was that just what the family called him? Or he may simply be missed off the lists - it happens.

There was a Willie RHODES ministering in Huddersfield sometime between 1912 (when Hall's Arrangement ends) and 1933 (when the Who's Who was put together)

I'm just off out for the day but I'll have a more detailed look this evening.

Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Many thanks Mary. :)

I'll write to my contact to check on the "Harry" name and I'll let you know, as soon as I find out.

[mary elms]

Hello again Diane,

I've had a look in Hall's Arrangement (up to 1912) and he's not listed for the Holmfirth circuit or any of the other Huddersfield circuits.

I've looked at Ministers and Probationers With Circuits (which includes Hill's Arrangement) and there's no Harry RHODES listed - though there are a number of ministers with this surname.

I've looked in Who's Who in Methodism 1933 (both in the ministers section and in the lay officers section) - same result.

I've looked in the Methodist Local Preachers Who's Who 1934 - same result.

Was he still alive in 1934 ? If not he may still have been a local preacher as this books contains those who were preaching in 1933 / 4

Some thoughts -

The census returns say he was a newsageant - she used the plural so there was more than one that said this?

What does it say for his occupation on his children's birth and marriage certificates?


Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Mary :)

Many thanks for all the searching you've done!
My contact confirms that his forename was definitely Harry, but unfortunately, her tree on the internet doesn't list a death date for him. I'll ask her if she has one, along with any birth/marriage certificates for Harry's children.

In respect of the Census returns, I've just checked them out ....... he was a Scholar in 1881, a Weaver in 1891 and a Newsagent in 1901.

[mary elms]

Ok. It looks less likely from the information we have that he was an ordained Wesleyan minister. It might be worth trying to find out what any local historians know about Methodism in the area. Looking at the Holmfirth Methodist website the name of the Wesleyan chapel doesn't appear to match. I wonder if there were independant chapels in the area? Or if the chapel wasn't in Holmfirth but somewhere nearby?

Mary.


Sorry Mary, I've removed the URL. While their information is excellent, every time I've clicked on it I've had pop-up adverts for online gaming and it looks as though the site might have been got at - I can't see the Methodists being happy with the gambling! If it hasn't, it breaks Bo's ban on commercial sites. People can find it quite easily via Google if they want it.
Lesley

[mary elms]

Along similar lines to my last thought. Holmfirth was a Wesleyan circuit. Was Zion one of the other churches in the circuit?

Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Mary :)

Many thanks for the link ..... but if anybody else clicks on it, please DO NOT click on the Scholes Methodist Church link in the top left menu, as I have just done! |sad1|

A box came up on the page and it told me my IP address, the name of my ISP, that I'm using XP and Firefox ...... and I don't like that! I shall be posting a message to Mark J in a minute!

Back on topic Mary ..... I'll send the link you gave me to my contact and I'll ask her to do what you recommend, plus mention your last query about Zion Churches.

[mary elms]

Sorry Mary, I've removed the URL. While their information is excellent, every time I've clicked on it I've had pop-up adverts for online gaming and it looks as though the site might have been got at - I can't see the Methodists being happy with the gambling! If it hasn't, it breaks Bo's ban on commercial sites. People can find it quite easily via Google if they want it.
LesleyThanks for doing that Lesley ... and they'd be very strange Methodists if they WERE happy with it :)

Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Thanks for doing that Lesley ... and they'd be very strange Methodists if they WERE happy with it :)
Mary.

Yeah ..... like someone I know who was brought up Methodist, insisted on being married by a Methodist Minister ..... and yet drinks like a fish! |shakehead

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Sorry Mary, I've removed the URL. While their information is excellent, every time I've clicked on it I've had pop-up adverts for online gaming and it looks as though the site might have been got at - I can't see the Methodists being happy with the gambling! If it hasn't, it breaks Bo's ban on commercial sites. People can find it quite easily via Google if they want it.
Lesley

In hindsight Lesley, I'm going to forget about this link. I don't want to tell my contact about it at all ...... even to Google for it.

Sorry Mary. |oopsredfa

[mary elms]

That's OK Diane,

I would tend to agree with you.

Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Mary :)

An update on Stephen FORREST for you.

In the 1911 Census, he and his wife, Sarah Jane, were living at Pool Road, Oswestry and Stephen's occupation was still listed as Wesleyan Methodist Minister ....... so still working, as you suggested!

A friend of mine has just sent me the following information:

In 1913 Kellys Directory for Shropshire, Stephen is listed twice - as a private resident at 8 Victoria Parade, Roft Street, Oswestry and also as a supernumerary at the Wesleyan Chapel there.

Listed under Places of Worship:

Wesleyan, Beatrice Street, (Severn Valley Mission) Oswestry.

The Superintendent there, is listed as Rev. G. Kirby White.

[mary elms]

Hello Diane,

My apologies. I saw this, read it, and meant to reply but I started a new job just as you posted and it looks as though I never did. So he went back to Oswestry where he went to school! Interesting.

I was doing some lookups for a friend and she mentioned that she had the 1912 Methodist Who's Who so I asked her if she'd have a look for Stephen. The Who's Whos are an opt in system so Stephen probably wasn't interested. However, my friend didn't stop there. She also has access to the 19th century newspapers database and looked him up there with great results including an advert from 1866 for Grove Park School, Wrexham, principal J Pryce Jones, which cites Stephen as one of the people to send references to. It shows Stephen continuing to be involved in wider family affairs. There's also an account of his ordination and details of some of the moves he made including one where he was all set to go to Newcastle under Lyme but is sent instead to be the superintendant minister in Bury.

If you don't have access to the papers then e-mail me and I can send you a copy of her transcript and some other stuff she sent me.

Best Wishes,

Mary.


PS For anyone else that's interested - The Methodist Who's Who 1912 is available free online.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Oooh, how wonderful! :)

I'll email you in a minute.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Mary,

I've just sent you an email, but I can't find out if it's gone off or not! :confused:

[mary elms]

It arrived.

Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Thank you for telling me! :)

[MzCompston]

your so kind to help people find info :) I see there was a layman named Edmund Leach Compston in the methodist church and if you could find anything out regarding him and especially his death.. Or point me in the right direction..i am from the USA so it is hard for me to do so.. thanks :)



I shall be visiting my parents on the 20th September and would be happy to do some lookups in these two books while I'm there.

'Who's Who in Methodsism 1933' contains details of ministers and those lay people who were Circuit office holders when the Weslyan, United Methodist & Primitive Methodist Churches united to form The Methodist Church in 1932.

Hall's Arrangement' is a list of circuits with their ministers. The lists are online here

http://rylibweb.man.ac.uk/data1/dg/methodist/ministers/minister.html

[EDIT - My parents' copy is the 1912 edition and contains Wesleyan circuits & ministers up to and including 1912]

There is more information on some of the names and if anyone wants me to check on a name I will be happy to do so.

Mary.

[mary elms]

I can't help with his death but here's the Who's Who in Methodism 1933 entry -

COMPSTON, Edmund Leach. M.B., Ch.B. (Hons.), b. 1870 at Settle, Yorks. (W. and U.), ed.Owens Coll., Manchester. m. Elizabeth Ellis of Manchester. two d. Physician. Organist (45); Choirmaster (18); Officer in charge, Aux Mil. Hosp. during war; Sen. Surgeon St. John's Ambul. Ass., Rawtenstall and Crawshawbooth; late Hon Sec. and Pres. Rossendale Med. Soc. Publications: Medical. Spl Int., Incurable Diseases (so-called); Homeopathy; Tep.; Purity; Young People; Music; Nature Studies. Club. Mem of the B.N.S. Address, Higher Cloughfold, Waterfoot, Rosendale, Lancs. Tel. Rosendale 73 and 198.

Those abreviations that are explained in the book are -

b = born
W = Wesleyan Methodist
U = United Methodist
ed = educated
m = married
d = daughter(s)
Spl Int = special interests
Temp = Temperance
Tel = telephone


He looks to be a very interesting person. I particualrly like the "so-called" after incurable diseases!

Mary.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Mary,

Yesterday, I received some wonderful information from a friend who lives in London, in respect of Stephen Forrest and his wife, Sarah Jane. Said friend has far more 'brain cells' than I have |oopsredfa and he thought of the possibility that Stephen's death year given as 1923 in transcriptions ....... may be 1928 ...... owing to a 'faded' 3 being difficult to read?

Whilst looking for 'his own people' on the National Probate Calendar, he looked for 'my Stephen' - not only that, but Sarah Jane as well!

Transcriptions:

Stephen Forrest, of 10 Princes Avenue, West Kirby, Cheshire, died on 28 August 1928.

Sarah Jane Forrest, of 10 Princes Avenue, West Kirby, Cheshire, died on 30 November 1933.

I'll be ordering the two Wills this week, to 'round off' this bit of my family.

A little bit of chit-chat for you now, to expand the picture.

In the 1901 census, his two unmarried siblings were still living in Wrexham, in their late parents family home, so I wondered if Stephen had moved from Oswestry sometime after 1913, (his last known whereabouts) to be nearer to them. Before my friend gave me the info, I checked the 1911 census index for them both, (better late than never!) and guess what? They were both living in Oswestry, same as Stephen!

I know from my friend's info that Stephen and Sarah Jane ended up in Cheshire, the same applies to Stephen's two siblings.

From FreeBMD:

Deaths Sep 1928 Forrest Stephen 86 Wirral 8a 430
Deaths Jun 1930 Forrest Sophia 94 Wirral 8a 538
Deaths Mar 1932 Forrest William 83 Wirral 8a 663

From GRO Indexes:

Deaths Dec 1933 Forrest Sarah J. 78 Wirral 8a 539

Many thanks to you Mary, for your wonderful contributions to *The Life & Times of Stephen Forrest - The Bible Basher* ...... (as I affectionately call him!) :D and of course to my friend, who solved the final mystery for me.