mariners/masters/fishermen

[pejay]

could anyone please explain to me the difference between mariners,masters and fishermen, if one owned a small fishing boat would they then be a mariner?, or did people have delusions of grandeur? when stating their occupations and would a master be the same sort of thing, i apologise if the same question has already been asked, but i do feel quite confused!

[Geoffers]

could anyone please explain to me the difference between mariners,masters and fishermen, if one owned a small fishing boat would they then be a mariner?
From a small amount of experience with looking at the fishing fleets from Yarmouth and Lowestoft - he would be a fisherman; but within that may be described as a master, mate, or crew according to his position on the boat.

Geoffers

[pejay]

thanks for info, i think i now understand, i have some ancestors who owned small fishing cobles on the north east coast. so they would be fishermen but masters of their boats, who would be a mariner? i have a marriage certificate that says mariner, however he must have just been a fisherman with his own small boat,as he doesn't appear to have been in the navy, and spent his life fishing.

[Geoffers]

thanks for info, i think i now understand, i have some ancestors who owned small fishing cobles on the north east coast. so they would be fishermen but masters of their boats, who would be a mariner?
A mariner is a seaman - so someone who earned their living on boats/ships at sea could describe themselves as a mariner


i have a marriage certificate that says mariner, however he must have just been a fisherman with his own small boat,as he doesn't appear to have been in the navy, and spent his life fishing.
If he was a fisherman, it surprises me that he didn't describe himself as such; but then further up the coast it may have been the tradition for fishermen to refer to themselvse as mariners.

When you mention that "he doesn't appear to have been in the navy" Do you mean Royal or Merchant Navy? I would imagine that a fisherman would have followed his living; but in some circumstances may have been crew on perhaps the coastal trade.
Geoffers

[pejay]

hi there, - and thanks very much for replying to my query, i noticed on a marriage certificate it stated mariner, this was dated 1853, when he married again in 1861 it states fisherman on the certificate., so first i wondered if perhaps he had been in the navy, and then i thought - maybe he fancied calling himself something a bit different to a fisherman, i suppose i never thought of the merchant navy.indeed i know absolutely nothing about it, he did have his own fishing coble though.

[Geoffers]

I think you may find some information to assist in The National Archvies, but first make a cuppa and browse through their research guides on the Merchant Navy:
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=257
in particular the links connected with service registers 1835-1857 and crew lists and agreements 1747-1860

Geoffers

[pejay]

hi, thanks for replying to my query. i have looked at the research guides on the merchant navy at the national archives,and i do not think he was in the merchant navy however - i am sure they will come in handy for checking out other ancestors.

[Geoffers]

i do not think he was in the merchant navy
Bearing in mind that the Merchant Shipping Act 1835 included registered ships of 80 tons used in coastal trade or fishing - and your comment -

"i noticed on a marriage certificate it stated mariner, this was dated 1853, when he married again in 1861 it states fisherman on the certificate."

Which on its own suggests someone who was a mariner and became a fisherman.

It may be a mistake not to look at the records for merchant seamen. However, it is your research and so must follow the line(s) you wish to pursue.

Geoffers

[pejay]

Hi thanks very much for your reply, it does make sense to follow all leads,
i think i will keep searching for him. he is a gt gt grandparent. sooner or later i am sure to find something on him, i have a bad habit of giving up too soon and moving on to another person.

[Dennis Harker]

pejay,

A mariner is anyone who goes to sea for a living.
A fisherman is a mariner who earns his living from fishing.
A Master is a MN mariner who is in charge of a MN ship. The general public would normally call him the Captain which is not his real rank. He must hold a Master's Certificate of Competency to do this. The fishing equivalent is a Skipper.
A Mate is next in line-of-command to the Master or the Skipper. He must hold a Mate's Certificate of Competency.
There are different levels of qualification in both the Deck (mates) and the Engineering (engineers) departments all of which must be held before individuals can take up their relevant posts and duties. All highly skilled and hard qualifications to obtain.

The MCA differentiate between the MN and Fishing Industries.

The qualifications held by all mariners are generally to a high degree starting from basic sea survival, life saving and emergency work to the higher levels of Nautical Degrees.

The British MN and Fishing Fleets have been decimated over the last 40 years or so as a result of companies hiring cheaper, less-skilled labour, flagging-out ships to other countries' economies and other political decisions made by our 'rulers'. If all shipping were to cease we would be hit very hard.

I have just retired from 39 years in the British MN, originally from Lincs and did my Nautical Training at Grimsby.

[pejay]

|wave| HI AND THANKS FOR REPLYING TO MY QUERY. I MUST SAY I WAS FEELING CONFUSED :confused: BY THIS, BUT I DO FEEL I UNDERSTAND MORE NOW,I THINK HE WOULD BE A FISHERMAN, AS THAT IS HOW HE EARNED HIS LIVING, BUT WOULD ONE HAVE TO BE IN THE MN AND BE IN CHARGE OF A MN VESSEL TO BE A MASTER? OR COULD YOU JUST HAVE YOUR OWN FISHING BOAT? ,AN ANCESTER WAS PRESSED INTO SERVICE INTO THE RN FROM 1798 - 1806 AND HIS OCCUPATION WAS GIVEN AS MASTER THIS IS WHY I ASK, HE HAD HIS OWN SMALL FISHING BOAT. - ON A COLD WET WINTER DAY LAST YEAR, I DISREGARDED THE WEATHER AND WENT TO THE FISHING HERITAGE MUSEUM AT GRIMSBY, AND WENT ONTO THE FISJING VESSEL, - VERY SLIPPERY STEPS, IT CERTAINLY OPENED MY EYES TO THE PERILS OF HAVING TO RELY ON THE INCLEMENT WEATHER, LIFE MUST HAVE BEEN AT TIMES A BIT OF A NIGHTMARE!

[Dennis Harker]

It is possible for someone to gain a Master's Certificate of Competency and still be in charge of a fishing vessel. However, I think a Skipper's Certificate is all that is required to command the trawler. Your ancestor may have gone the full hog with his qualifications and then decided to go fishing only or he may have been in the MN first before moving into the fishing industry. However, if he is described as a Master it would make me think MN. I could be wrong of course.

In the RFA we worked with the RN all the time and I don't recollect any of them being called Master. They use the rank of Captain for the four-ring officer. I know they had difficulty working out where our Masters fitted into the hierarchy until they saw them in uniform. It then became obvious they were the equivalent of the RN's Captain.

I did a lot of my training with the fishing lads in Grimsby. It was a hard life for them at sea and I am glad I went deep-sea. Yes, we still got the rough weather and some dodgy voyages but the fishermen could look forward to that just about every trip around Iceland and Northern Norway.

[Dennis Harker]

This book extract may give you an idea of just how hard the trawlermens' lives could be. I could never make up my mind whether they were foolish or very brave for choosing this occupation.


http://www.saabphotos.com/gallery/albums/Miscellaneous-non-Saab/trawler01.sized.jpg

[pejay]

|wave| hi thanks for your reply. i assume this person started his working life as a fisherman, but i have no idea really, certainly the sea must have been in his blood .i was amazed when i read about the trawler in 1979!! i think they were very brave men or very foolhardy, and i suppose often it must have been a case of needs must, still it was so hazardous, not knowing if you were going to come home and i thought it was cold here! - or perhaps the sea was in their blood too.

[ChristineR]

could anyone please explain to me the difference between mariners,masters and fishermen, if one owned a small fishing boat would they then be a mariner?, or did people have delusions of grandeur? when stating their occupations and would a master be the same sort of thing, i apologise if the same question has already been asked, but i do feel quite confused!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_Mariner

A Master Mariner was someone qualified to command any ship - not just in the RN. Wikipedia gives a good description.

Christine

[pejay]

|wave| hi and thankyou for your reply it is a good definition of 'master'

[Noel]

Hi
My 3 x great grandfather was a master mariner of Lowestoft. In truth his was a fishing skipper.
I was a tug master old Home trade cert. So you could call me a master mariner also.
As the Grimsby chappie says under MCA Rules you have to go from deck to Wheelhouse to get your cert's. As he would know fishermen at 19 yrs old could be Mate of a fishing boat,at 21yrs old you could be (Skipper) of a fishing boat.Trawler etc.The time you are talking about Smacks were still going so would have known also about sailing.
Noel

[pejay]

|wave| hi and thanks for your reply, it is certainly an interesting subject, and i feel that i cannot put my ancestor to sleep - so to speak at the moment.I feel he would not have got certificates and that he probably learned everything from other fishermen, perhaps by some sort of apprenticeship though i could be wrong, would you need to be rich in those days to gain certificates? it seems these men were fishermen probably from the year dot,and it was only broken by my grandfather who was seasick everytime he went out on a boat, and so becane a miner instead! also would you possibly be able to tell me what a boatswain was? would it be another name for a midshipman?

[Dennis Harker]

Hi Pejay,

I must have missed your question many moons ago when you posted it and I have only just come back to this thread - apologies for the late reply.

The fishing lads I did some of my MN training with at Grimsby in the 60s were known as 'deckie-learners'. However, this was for the deep-sea trawlers which went up around Iceland and the top of Norway. They did need qualifications because of the nature of the voyages. The trawler companies should not have signed them on without those qualifications (in theory - practice was often different). However, your ancestor may have been involved with the smaller inshore fishing boats (as opposed to ships) and I doubt if the rules and regulations applied in the same way. Much the same as anyone can buy a boat these days and take it out to sea without any form of 'driving test' etc.

Boatswain is normally shortened to Bosun and he is the Petty Officer who is in charge of the deck crew. He normally works for the Chief Officer (Mate) who in turn works for the Master (Skipper).

[Dennis Harker]

Pejay,

Just to clarify. To be called the Master of a ship you must hold a MASTER's Certificate of Competency. This is a standard MN qualification. If your ancestor called himself a Master then he was either telling fibs or he had actually gained that qualification. A Master is also known as a Master Mariner.

In the RN they are called Commanding Officers and can be any rank from Lieutenant upwards (minesweepers to bigger stuff) and hold military qualifications but in the MN you have to hold that Master's qualification if you want to command a ship. Many MN companies now call their Masters 'Captain' but that is really only a company convention - they still have to hold a Master's Certificate.

Treat any definition in Wikipedia with caution as it is not a definitive source.

[pejay]

Hi and many thanks for your reply, unfortunately i am no further on with this guy, i still occassionally look for any info that could be relevant. but so far I keep drawing blanks, - i think he must be yet another 'brick wall'

[Dennis Harker]

You say he owned his own boat and fished off the north-east coast. Could you be a bit more specific (if you have any more info of course) such as the name of any boat, where off the north-east coast and where he lived according to the marriage certificate? With more info there may be others who can help.

[pejay]

:) hi there - seems i missed your post, very sorry :o i do have some info on the guy who called himself a mariner on his first marriage certificate in 1853 , which was at tynemouth. and both him and his wife were resident there at time of marriage. his 2nd marriage in 1861 where it states fisherman as his occupation was at st nicholas parish , newcastle upon tyne, and it gives his new wife as resident at tynemouth, and him - at this port,which i assume must be newcastle. both him and family were born and bred in a place called newbiggin by the sea which is about 15 miles away from newcastle, so i assume he fished around about in that area. on his death cert it also states fisherman as his occupation though he w26nbsp; and both him and his wife were resident there at time of marriage. his 2nd marriage in 1861 where it states fisherman as his occupation was at st nicholas parish , newcastle upon tyne, and it gives his new wife as resident at tynemouth, and him - at this port,which i assume must be newcastle. both him and family were born and bred in a place called newbiggin by the sea which is about 15 miles away from newcastle, so i assume he fished around about in that area. on his death cert it also states fisherman as his occupation though he was 79 years of age ! - no rest then, seems like you worked virtually until you dropped unless you were very rich. my other ancestor who was pressed into the navy during the napoleonic wars i have a copy of a muster roll that i am pretty certain is him , gives his occupation as master, he served on 6 ships, though the largest was a 2nd rate, and the smallest was a 14 gun ship. which i suppose would be a sloop or cutter?

[Dennis Harker]

Don't worry about missing a post - can't be glued to the PC all the time!!

I know Tynemouth quite well having carried out many ship refits on the Tyne living ashore whilst the ship repairers took our 'home' to bits. Tynemouth (as the name suggests) is at the mouth of the Tyne on the north bank. It is next to North Shields which had a big fishing fleet and associated processing industry until fairly recently. The fishing was mainly North Sea and I don't think any deep sea trawlers sailed from North Shields. That was more the preserve of places like Grimsby, Hull and Fleetwood.

Reading back over this thread it would appear that this ancestor was a fisherman. His first description as 'mariner' is correct as is the second of 'fisherman' since that is the particular type of mariner he was. If he was the skipper of his own boat(s) he may have been modest and just used the general terms above.

With regard to the other ancestor I believe some could be called master that far back. However, I think it is more Master-at-Arms and the like rather than Master of the ship. Someone better versed in RN history may give a better answer than that!

[Stuman]

I think that back in Napoleonic times there was another category of seaman in the RN who would have been called a master. He would have been a professional seaman who knew a lot about the running of a ship and navigating. He was not a posted officer but he advised them. He would have been a very experienced seaman and could possibly in his time been a fisherman but more likely merchant ships.

I am not sure when the position disappearred but probably sometime in the Victorian Navy when it could well have transmuted into Warrent officer rank of Master-at-arms, although as I undertsand it that position tended to be more one related to discipline within the ships than the running of the ships.

The term Master Mariner in the early 1800s would most certainly have implied the position of "captain" of a merchant vessel although back then there were no general certificates of competancy - they came later. There were some certificates issued by Trinity House but it was perfectly possible for someone to command a ship on the basis of experience alone.

Stuart

[pejay]

hi there, - many thanks for the replies, i think i now know they were 'fishermen', they both had their own small fishing boats, so they would be masters or skippers of their boats i had not seen the term mariner relating to any of my ancestors before, only 'fisherman' i suppose the ancestor who was pressed would be an experienced fisherman hence the occupation of 'master' he would probably prove helpful and useful.