Marriages Mystery - 50 years of Licenses vanish.

[Jack Richards]

That was a headline in the Manchester Evening News last Wednesday 31.08.'05.

Apparently, records of marriages between 1898 and 1950s at the Rochdale parish church (St. Chads) are not held there, nor are they at Rochdale Local Studies nor Manchester Central Library. The only place with a full record is Rochdale Register Office, which charges £7 per copy.

The church state they had sent the records to the Central Library, who in turn state they sent letters in 2003 asking for the records but received no reply.

Donald Foster, Rochdale deputy registrar says "The church has two records running at the same time - one for them to keep and one they send to us. They (the registrar's) have a comprehensive list for St. Chad's from 1837 to present day.

Here's the "crippler"!

Members of the public can't ask to look at the register, but they can get a copy of the marriage licence for £7 ........!

(My comment - I seem to remember a recent thread on this list on this very same subject. Legally, is he correct?).

The current Rochdale vicar Rev. David Foss, states they only keep one list which is sent to Manchester Central Library when it is complete. A Manchester City Council spokesman said "We hold marriage records from St. Chad's from 1582 to 1898. No other marriage records haave been deposited by the church."

I could add my personal comments concerning archives and Manchester City Council but it is best left unsaid!

Regards

Jack

[jeeb]

I hear you loud and clear Jack and totally agree with your unsaid comments!
Well said!!
Jeremy

[Ken Boyce]

Hi Jack

Are the Register(s) in question the Parish Church ecclesiastical records of marriages, baptisms funerals etc. or are they the Civil Registration Registers of Marriages?

As I understand it (I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong) the former are the property of the church and are under the jurisdiction of the incumbent or Bishop. Disposition of, and access to, these “Parish” Registers is entirely up to the Church Authorities who theoretically own the Rights to these documents (but in practice seem to have lost control over them)

The Civil Registration Register of Marriages belongs to the Crown who owns all the Rights. They are under the jurisdiction of the Registrar General and are subject to legislated requirements.

The church (and all entities licensed to marry) retains an assigned Civil Register until it is full at which point it must be returned to the Registrar. A second register is used to transmit copies of the marriage entries .to the Local Registrar This document must also be returned to the Registrar when full.

I believe there are rigid regulations as to who can access the ‘floating’ Civil Registers not kept at the Registrar’s Office and I think that it may be illegal for a library or other unauthorized agency to hold and/or display Civil Registers, historic or otherwise.

Could someone more familiar with the rules and regs enlighten us?

Regards

[Jack Richards]

Friends

I'm quoting from the article in the Manchester Evening News.

I read it as the Registrar has the records but the Church do not have theirs, stating they were sent to the Manchester Central Library, which is really the equivalent of the Local Studies (as I understand it).

The article states Manchester Central Library.

In Manchester as in most places the Central Library is separate to the County Record Office.

My conjecture is that within the next couple of days, we may have one of our friends who works in the Manchester Central Library making comment. Likewise another friend will make reference to the previous thread re access to records at the Registrars.

I was merely bringing this article to the attention of researchers within the
B-G Forums.

Regards

Jack

[uksearch]

I deleted my original reply as I mis-read the dates.:o I will have words with the Senior Archivist,Kevin Bolton at 10.01 in the morning.I will also read the MEN report...what do they mean..marriage licences,certificates or parish records?


UK

[Jack Richards]

Hi (sorry I could not find your name). (uksearch)

The article was on page 19 across middle of page - 5 short para's - Wed. 31 Aug.

It was referring to Records of Marriages at the parish church of St. Chad's, Rochdale.

As a serious researcher of some 23+ years, I have absolutely no research interests in Rochdale nor elsewhere in Gtr. Manchester and Lancashire (well a couple of minor interests in Radcliffe and Ashton under Lyne), though living within easy travel of Manchester Central Library, I have used in the past both the old "upstairs cubby holes" and the newer facilities.

I was merely posting this as a new thread for general interest and for those on the Forums that have an interest in the Rochdale area that may not have seen the article.

I hoped you might respond and I thank you for your interest.

Kindest regards

Jack

[Guy Etchells]

The legislation with regards to Baptisms and Burials is contained within
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~framland/acts/prrm1978.htm

The legislation for Marriages is at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/%7Eframland/acts/1949bAct.htm

60.-(I) Where any marriage register book required to be kept in duplicate under this Part of this Act is filled, one copy thereof shall be delivered to the superintendent registrar and the other copy-
(a) in the case of a register book kept by an incumbent, shall remain in the custody of the incumbent and be kept by him with the registers of baptisms and burials of the parish or other ecclesiastical district in which the marriages registered therein have been solemnized ;

The public have the right (under law) to view (search & make copies if they so wish) all registers held at a church and all registers held at the Local Registrar's office.
They do not have the right to search registers held at the Superintendent Registrar's Office.
Cheers
Guy

[Jack Richards]

Guy

Thanks for your response, I was hoping you would become involved in this thread / discussion.

I am embarrassed in that recently there was a thread of a similar nature and I cannot find it. Correct me if I have it wrong, but I seem to recall the view expressed was that the Supt. Registrar did not have a legal right to refuse a persons request to view the registers, albeit in reality every Registrar did refuse access.

Also, thank you for attaching a copy of the relevant Acts. I'm sure other members (like me) of this Forum will also be thankful of your response. Whilst, it is highly unlikely I will need to use the Act, it is one for the "memory bank".

As far as Church registers are concerned, I have always been given access to the registers that are in the possession of the incumbent and have been pleased to make a donation to the church.

Wherever I have gone over the many years of my research, almost without exception, I have been afforded assistance, help and courtesy.

Kindest regards

Jack

[Guy Etchells]

One point, (Civil Registration) only Registrars must allow access to registers in their keeping, Superintendent Registrars are not Registrars for this purpose and do not have to allow access to the registers but do have to allow access to the Indexes in their keeping. Cheers
Guy

[uksearch]

For the benefit of those unable to read the arcticle the vicar stated that he would look into the matter.Obviously he had not been around at the time they were "deposited" at MCL.When the vicar "looked into the matter" he found the PRs were still at the church.The vicar has promised to deposit them in the MCL Archives "soon".
I have heard of another similar story where PRs have not been deposited here and been found hidden away in the church in question...maybe it's something in the water:D .

UK

[Jack Richards]

Reference the response by uksearch.

Absolutely brilliant, the mystery solved. I am sure I speak for many people when I thank you for the information you have provided.

Maybe the M.E.N. will do a follow up of the article.

Meanwhile, a happy and satisfactory ending to the thread.

Regards

Jack

[uksearch]

The marriage records for this church are now here in the Archive.The other registers are to follow "soon".

UK