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WilliamPwllyfan
24-04-2014, 11:21 PM
My 3rd-gt-grandparents Evan and Dinah got married at Capel Cynon, Llandysiliogogo on 15 June 1837, a fortnight before the new registration system began.

I know that Evan was born in Llandysul around 1810/11, and died on 6 June 1891. Dinah was born in Llandysiliogogo around 1816 and died on 22 November 1900. Both are buried at Pantydefaid Unitarian Cemetary, Pren-gwyn, Llandysul.

The 1841/51/61 Censuses show them living at Cnwc-y-dwrgi, a smallholding on the Darren Fawr farm in Talgarreg. They then moved to Castle Howell Mill, Pont-sian by 1881, and Pantteg, Pont-sian by 1891.

They had at least 8 children - John (1839-1860), Mary (1842-fl.1861), Watkin (1845-fl.1861; went to the industrial south, and never heard of again, according to family lore!), David (1848-1859), Thomas (1851-fl.1861), Evan (1853-1859), Hannah (1857-1876) and Margaret (1859-1936).

So, is there any way I can find out who Evan and Dinah's parents were? I have scoured the parish records in Llandysul and Llandysiliogogo parishes, but am drawing blanks. It is simply speculation on my part that they followed the tradition of naming the children by the names of the grandparents, thus John and Hannah Jones; Watkin and Mary Watkins. Or do these names simply reflect the patronymic?

Does anybody have any ideas, please?

Megan Roberts
25-04-2014, 7:30 AM
Have you seen the original marriage entry in 1837? A lot of churches and chapels changed their entries in the run up to civil registration to reflect the requirements of it.

Have you got the originals of every census to see if there are any relatives living close by? For instance if you found a likely sibling of Dinah's they may have married after the introduction of civil registration.

It's quite likely that they would have followed the tradition of naming children after parents and grandparents, but you can only take that as an indication.

With regards to patronymics, you need to have evidence about what was the norm in that particular area and family. You cannot simply say (as the IGI does) its before that date and in Wales so it has to be the patronymic naming system.

janbooth
25-04-2014, 11:37 AM
FindmyPast has the actual parish register entry of an Evan JONES born & baptised in Llandysul in 1812. Sorry, I can't give you details but you can search their records on a pay as you go basis.

The witnesses on the marriage record (available to view on a family tree on Ancestry) are a David THOMAS & a Thomas JONES - perhaps a relative of Evan?

Janet

janbooth
25-04-2014, 12:38 PM
Have you noticed that on the 1851 census record for Evan & Dinah that the next house down shows a John WATKINS aged 30 born Lllandysilio and his family including a son David and his mother Mary. Could this be a relative of Dinah's, perhaps a brother? And in the 1841 census of Llandysilio next door to Evan & Dina(h) is a Watkin WATKINS, aged 55, Farmer & his wife Mary and next door to him is John WATKINS again. This is very suggestive as Evan & Dinah named one of their sons Watkin didn't they, so this Watkin WATKINS is of the correct age to be Dinah's father. FindmyPast also has the parish register burial record for Watkin in 1843 which presumably is the reason why Mary is living with son John in the 1851 census.

It might be worth your while looking at Ancestry's Select England & Wales baptisms. There are baptisms at Llandyssiliogogo, Cardiganshire for children of a Watkin & Mary WATKINS including a Mary WATKINS on 5 July 1824 and a Margaret on 1 February 1826, Can't find the baptism of a Dinah WATKINS or John WATKINS but they may have moved to Llandyssiliogogo when they were very young.

However, this may give you another avenue to explore.

Janet

WilliamPwllyfan
25-04-2014, 5:06 PM
Thanks, Megan and Janet.

It's my tree you saw on Ancestry, Janet (!), and as you'll both see this marriage is the very last one recorded in the old style register at Capel Cynon, i.e. no abode, no fathers.

I've also been scratching my head about Watkin and Mary Watkins and their family living at Darren Fawr, Talgarreg. There is an entry in the marriage register at Llanarth (Mary's birth parish according to Census 1861, although Census 1851 says she was born at Llandysul), of one Watkin Watkins marrying a Mary William on 27 April 1815. This would line up with Dinah being born close to the beginning of their marriage sometime in 1816.

Watkin died on 21 February 1843 and was buried at Llandysul churchyard. Both his gravestone and the burial register say he was 61. His son John takes the farm on, but he dies on 11 August 1859, aged 39.

The 1861 Census states that John's widow Anne is now farming Darren Fawr, with her widowed mother-in-law Mary still living there. Mary joins Watkin in Llandysul churchyard on 28 January 1870, although interestingly she is not commemorated on the same gravestone. (Neither is Anne commemorated on the headstone of John and two of their children who died in childhood - David, 1854 (age 8) and Evan, 1859 (age 2).)

Janet, as you rightly point out, Mary and Margaret were both baptised at Llandysiliogogo, but there is no record for a baptism for John or my Dinah, despite the censuses giving their birthplace as Llandysiliogogo. John was born around 1820, with Dinah some 4 years before him. The baptism registers are extant for Llanarth, Llandysul and Llandysiliogogo throughout this period, but there is no John or Dinah Watkins listed. In fact, the very first offical reference I can find of Dinah's existence is in that 1837 marriage register.

Is there anything else I can do at this point to move from "on the balance of probability" to "beyond reasonable doubt", or must I speculate that Watkin and Mary impiously overlooked the baptism of their first two children, before finding the church door again with Mary and Margaret?

This narrative is spoiled, however, by the fact that Watkin Watkins, Darren Fawr, shares his grave with his son David, who died on 29 May 1837, aged 24, i.e. born in 1812 or 1813, two or three years before the Watkin Watkins/Mary William wedding in Llanarth. (Unless, of course, there was an earlier Mrs. Watkins?)

I don't seem to be able to replicate your baptism search for Evan Jones on FMP, Janet. The only Evan Jones baptism I can find find is one for Llandysul, Montgomeryshire in 1812.

Lastly, to the matter of Thomas Jones, witness at Evan and Dinah's 1837 wedding. He may well have been a brother, but given the common surname and the lack of any other information, I'll just have to file that fact away at the moment!

janbooth
26-04-2014, 9:53 AM
Sorry, that is the baptism I found. I did not realise there were 2 different places called Llandysul. However, could this perhaps be a later baptism for your Evan on Ancestry Non-conformist Baptisms:

23 March 1813 at Horeb Independent, Llandyssul, Cardiganshire Evan JONES son of Thomas JONES & Margreat

This might tie in with the witness Thomas JONES at the marriage of Evan & Dinah. What do you think??

Janet

WilliamPwllyfan
26-04-2014, 10:48 AM
Thank you, Janet. Yes, St. Tysul must have gotten around a bit; I didn't realise about the Llandysul, Montgomeryshire, either.

Horeb is the mother chapel of a very large area in southern Cardiganshire and northern Carmarthenshire. It still hold services to this day. RG4 Piece 1684 at the PRO (on Ancestry.co.uk) is a fascinating piece of Georgian social history.

I took a look at Evan Jones. He comes from Llanfyhengelararth [Llanfihangel-ar-Arth, Carmarthenshire]. Now, that could mean quite literally the other side of the River Teifi from Llandysul across the village bridge (Llandysul station was there, and it was considered part Llandysul, if only in another county!), or somewhere 10 miles away from Horeb at the far end of Llanfihangel-ar-Arth parish. (Horeb Chapel, the only non-conformist chapel of any denomination in the area in 1813, is a 2.5 mile walk from Llandysul bridge.)

I will keep this Evan son of Thomas in my list of maybes. My Evan's birthplace is only a slight mystery (!). The censuses give his origin thus: 1841 Y (Cardiganshire), 1851 Llandysul, 1861 Llandysiliogogo, 1871 Llandysul, 1881 Llandysul, 1891 Llandysul.

janbooth
27-04-2014, 11:49 AM
And I thought my SMITHs were difficult to research! So on balance of probability it is likely that he was baptised in Llandysul or else he moved there as a youngster. I don't suppose either of the WATKINS or JONES parents are likely to have left a Will which might clarify matters?

Janet

WilliamPwllyfan
27-04-2014, 10:59 PM
I didn't realise that the National Library of Wales had digitised the wills proven at the consistory courts up until 1858, and placed them free to view online.

But now I have found the will of Watkin Watkins (†1843), Darren Fawr. Lo and behold, he gave "unto my Daughter Dinah the Wife of Evan Jones Cnwc the sum of two shillings and six pence". The rest of the estate he divided equally "between my dear Wife Mary Watkin and my children by the said Mary Watkin hereinafter named that is to say Mary, John, Margaret and Daniel".

I guess the unequal treatment as between the 5 living children must be because Dinah was the only married child when this will was made a few months before Watkin's death. 2/6d in 1843 is worth around 170 in economic status in today's terms.

It's still a surprise that Mary and Margaret have their baptisms recorded, but not Dinah, John, Daniel, or for that matter David who shares his father's grave.

Still working on the Joneses!

setay.hd
28-04-2014, 9:11 AM
We know of dinah watkins,her father &mother. She was born in 1815 &married in 1837 ten days after her brothers death.She was left 2 shillings and sixpence bye her father in his will of 1843.
If you are interested contact us on setay.hd@gmail,com

WilliamPwllyfan
28-04-2014, 10:26 AM
Re #9. Sorry, I meant to say that Watkin Watkins's will was signed on 9 February 1843, just 12 days before his death on the 21st.

I still think 2/6d to be a strange sum. Other farmers in a similar era and similar economic circumstances gave their married daughters a 1 or so, if they could. Half a crown seems rather odd, unless that's really all they had to spare for someone outside the immediate household?

janbooth
28-04-2014, 10:27 AM
Great find, William, so that at least confirms the WATKINS side of the family. Perhaps Dinah had already been given a marriage portion and as you say the 2s 6d was just a token amount. Good luck with your Jones family!

Janet

WilliamPwllyfan
18-05-2014, 11:29 AM
The David Watkins with whom Watkin Watkins is later buried is named David Jones in the Llandysul burial register. This is strange as the MI is specific: "David WATKINS, Darrenfawr, plwyf Llandissiliogogo, bu farw Mai 29 1837 yn 24 oed. Watkin WATKINS, Dad y rhagddywededig David WATKINS, bu farw Chwefror 21 1843 yn 61 oed [Verse begins: 'Mae yma dad mewn ...']".

To add to the mystery, a John Jones from Darren-fawr, Llandysilio is listed in the burial register for 9 Jun 1838, aged 9 months. No MI exists for him.

Could this John have been the first-born son of Evan and Dinah Jones, I wonder? They married on 15 Jun 1837, but their other unmarried children are buried with them at Pantydefaid Unitarian Cemetary, viz. Evan, 21 Mar 1859 (6); David, 21 Mar 1859 (12); John, 23 Jul 1860 (21); Hannah, 8 Jan 1876 (20).

I find it unlikely that John 1838 was the son of David Jones/Watkins 1837, as he would have been buried with his father and grandfather.

In which case, it would further enhance my initial theory that Evan Jones was the son of a John. Conjecture: Dinah was already carrying Evan's child when they married in June 1837 a fortnight after her (half-?)brother's funeral. John #1 was born in around September 1837 and died around 7 Jun 1838. John #2 was born in 1839 and died 23 Jul 1860.

I have found a baptism for an Evan, son of John EVAN, Blancaffel [Blaencefel] in Llandysul on 4 Oct 1812. (No mother is listed in this record, although they are given for other baptisms in this period.)

Now, this might be unremarkable, except for the fact that right next door to Evan and Dinah Jones's grave is that of one Rees Jones, Blaencefel, who died 12 Mar 1865, aged 54 (born c. 1810/1). One of their children, named Thomas, died 12 Apr 1926, aged 77 (born 1848/9).

Frustration warning: there are appear to be two leaves missing from the Llandysul baptism register as the entries jump from 31 Mar 1811 to 4 Aug 1812. There are BTs from 1811 which I still have to check. :nopity:

Since conjecture and supposition are all I have to go on, I am having to bring together a narrative account of my 3rd-great-grandfather's origins.

As usual, all information is gratefully received!