Incorrect information on certificates

[vicaby]

This is probably a very naive question and no doubt has been raised before...

I have just received a copy of my grandmothers birth certificate, from the office where her birth was registered in 1885 (Guisborough, N. Yorks). To my great surprise it gives her mother's maiden name as Powell. The other siblings I have checked have her as Tovey. I am positive I am looking at the right family because I have checked the 1881, 1891 and 1901 census data, and the names etc. tie in with what my mum remembers, and my gran had a twin sister which is a great help.
I wondered whether somewhere along the line someone can't read old script very well and has just made a mistake deciphering the writing. However I did ask the register office to check & they have said its definitely Powell.

Where are the original registration documents held? Are they available for public viewing? Anyone any ideas on how I can establish whether the details on the birth certificate are actually correct? This probably doesn't matter much in the great scheme of things (I doubt I'm an heiress to a vast fortune!) its the principle that concerns me.
Thanks,
Vicky

[LynA]

I have just received a copy of my grandmothers birth certificate, from the office where her birth was registered in 1885 (Guisborough, N. Yorks). To my great surprise it gives her mother's maiden name as Powell. The other siblings I have checked have her as Tovey.Thanks,
Vicky
I wonder if there is any chance your great grandmother could have been married twice? One of the surnames might have been her maiden name and one her previous married name. I believe the certificate should still have shown her as something like "Nee Powell, formerly Tovey" (or vice versa), but certificates are not always 100% accurate. :)

Regards,
Lynda

[Wirral]

Do you have a copy of your grandmother's twin's birth certificate? Does that have the same info? I understand that with a twin birth (in England & Wales) the time of the birth is recorded on the birth certificate, not just the date. In Scotland I think they may put the time routinely (but don't quote me on this!).

[Geoffers]

Carrying on from Lynda's response, could your gt-grandfather have married twice? - First to a woman called POWELL and then to a TOVEY? Does your gran's twin's birth certificate have the same name for the mother?

You might try checking for the death of the twin's mother and re-marriage of their father.

Possibly your gt-grandmother was born illegitimate, but her mother married and so your gt-gran used both surnames in time?

Geoffers

[vicaby]

Thanks for the responses so far.
I'm reasonably sure she didn't remarry. If Tovey is correct, I have a marriage in 1866 when she was 21/22 (I have sent for the cert but it hasn't arrived yet) The first son was born in 1868, followed by other children in 1870, 1872, 1875, 1878 then my gran & her sister in 1885. She was 40 when the twins arrived. These are the children I know reached adulthood - there could have been others who were born & died between censuses. According to census info she was widowed sometime after 1885 (twins birth) & 1891. She was shown as a widow on the 1901 census, the only others in the household were her second-born son & the twins.
I don't think gt. granddad remarried either, though it is one scenario I hadn't considered. I've just checked the indexes for likely deaths (divorce highly unlikely) & marriages in the relevant area, between 1878 - 1885. I know this isn't conclusive as I've only looked at information available on-line so far.
She's shown as Widow in 1891 & 1901 with children described as "sons and daughters"; wouldn't that have said "step-" if their natural father had died by then?
Yes the birth cert has the time on it.
Elder siblings & the twins all show same father, though I admit its a reasonably common name in that area at that time... How easy was it to get a birth registered then?
I am dubious about ordering the twin's cert as it may show exactly the same error if the same person writes it out!
Regards
Vicky

[Peter Goodey]

"I am dubious about ordering the twin's cert as it may show exactly the same error if the same person writes it out! "


It probably will contain the same information and the fact there was a time on the cert confirms she was one of two (or more!).

But don't keep calling it an error - you'll only help to confuse yourself. Look on it as another version of the truth, until proved otherwise.

How certain are you that both the father and the mother of your ancestor and of her siblings were indeed precisely the same people?

[Wirral]

I think that most of the certificates that I have ordered through the gro.gov.uk online site were photocopies of the records that they held. Before finding online ordering I used to apply directly to the local registration office for the certificates. Many of these were modern transcriptions, rather than photocopies of the originals.
I have just ordered some certificates today online. They cost £7 each & the estimated despatch date is the 5th Sept.

[vicaby]

I think I will order the twins birth cert from GRO, and until I have that I'll try to keep an open mind.
They say you might not have the father you think you have but you can be reasonably sure about the mother!
I think my mum would have known if my gran & her siblings had different mothers, after all its not as though its got the same stigma as an illegitimate birth might have had.
Vicky

[Geoffers]

Many of these were modern transcriptions, rather than photocopies of the originals.
The GRO certificates (births and deaths at least) are photocopies of a copy held by the GRO made from details supplied by the local registrar. As such, they're not photocopies of an original.

Geoffers

[Geoffers]

If Tovey is correct, I have a marriage in 1866 when she was 21/22 (I have sent for the cert but it hasn't arrived yet)
A marriage certificate may help to provide an answer. If no father for the bride is mentioned then she is likely to be illegitimate. If the father's surname is different (maybe Powell?) then this may also point to an illegit birth. If the father's surname is the same, she may still be illegit if her parents didn't marry or married after her birth. In any case you will have something to work on.


The first son was born in 1868, followed by other children in 1870, 1872, 1875, 1878 then my gran & her sister in 1885.
A gap. It always arouse my curiosity when children are born at farily regular intervals and then there is a gap. Was there possibly another child born then and the child and mother died? At least you only have a seven/eight year gap in which to check records.

continued.....

[Geoffers]

.....part 2....

She's shown as Widow in 1891 & 1901 with children described as "sons and daughters"; wouldn't that have said "step-" if their natural father had died by then?
Whilst it often is so recorded, this isn't always the case.


Elder siblings & the twins all show same father, though I admit its a reasonably common name in that area at that time... How easy was it to get a birth registered then?
It's just being plain nosey, but what is the father's name?

Registering a birth - very easy.


I think my mum would have known if my gran & her siblings had different mothers, after all its not as though its got the same stigma as an illegitimate birth might have had.
It might do if the first wife hadn't died but was abandoned and he ran off with the other woman - but that's another problem

Geoffers

[Peter Goodey]

"A gap. It always arouse my curiosity when children are born at farily regular intervals and then there is a gap. Was there possibly another child born then and the child and mother died? At least you only have a seven/eight year gap in which to check records."

Pretty much what I was thinking.


Originally Posted by vicaby
I think my mum would have known if my gran & her siblings had different mothers, after all its not as though its got the same stigma as an illegitimate birth might have had.


It might do if the first wife hadn't died but was abandoned and he ran off with the other woman - but that's another problem

I think Vicky needs to take a step back and consider the possibility that her mum may not have known everything about her mother's family.

Well spotted about the marriage certificate. Vicky definitely needs that (and one might argue that she needed it before ordering the birth certificate).

[vicaby]

Well spotted about the marriage certificate. Vicky definitely needs that (and one might argue that she needed it before ordering the birth certificate).

I asked for the birth certificate to confirm the parents names. Please can you tell me how I can get hold of a marriage certificate before I know who the parents are?

[vicaby]

I have tried several times to post another response but it got totally screwed up with the editing. If this gets mangled I'm leaving it as it is!

Part 1.


How certain are you that both the father and the mother of your ancestor and of her siblings were indeed precisely the same people?

Well we all have to start with some basic assumptions don't we? Isn’t it reasonable to assume that 3 consecutive censuses showing consistent data are actually showing the same family? It would be a set of incredible coincidences if they weren’t.


"It always arouse my curiosity when children are born at farily regular intervals and then there is a gap.”

My mum was also a surprise late baby, born 10 years after her sister. I don't think it's that unusual for a surprise addition to arrive when mum is 40ish, happened to 2 of my aunts too!

[vicaby]

Part2.
If anyone wants details of my research steps so far, please email me privately, I have tried several times to post some specifics but they are so long the editor keeps mangling them.

Did they check if the parents were married when the birth was registered? If the mother & father weren't married to each other, would the father's name still be shown?

I can't help feeling we're getting off the point of the original question... until I see the original birth entry for myself I’m still inclined to think the certificate I have got contains a transcription error. Have other people had similar experiences?

[Geoffers]

I asked for the birth certificate to confirm the parents names.
Yep, fair enough


Please can you tell me how I can get hold of a marriage certificate before I know who the parents are?
Once you get back to the period of census returns, it becomes easier. It works on the assumption that you are tracing records backwards in time. So, you have a birth certificate for a grandparent, using this you can find the marriage certificate for gt-grandparents and hopefully find thus find them on census returns.

continued....

[Geoffers]

You should now have the names and occupations of gt-grandparents fathers, details of a family (hopefully with a spread of children) from a census return and a wife's forename. If searching a very common surname such as Smith, Wright, etc - it can be difficult; but you have birthplaces of parents, where they were living and can hopefully calculate a rough period when they married from the ages in the census return. You might be able to go to the GRO index of marriages and find a match for a marriage there. Especially helpful in this respect is the freebmd web-site in that you can show all entries so far recorded from a page, which includes the mother's forename.

Geoffers

[Geoffers]

If anyone wants details of my research steps so far, please email me privately, I have tried several times to post some specifics but they are so long the editor keeps mangling them.
I apprecitate the problem, it does however, help to provide some simple basics such as a name, date and place of birth. That way specific names can be used, so that the replies make more sense to individuals, rather than referring to the parents and grandparents of gt-grandparents. As a bear of simple brain, this always confuses me :)

continued....

[Geoffers]

My mum was also a surprise late baby, born 10 years after her sister. I don't think it's that unusual for a surprise addition to arrive when mum is 40
Fair enough, I was a late surprise too - good or bad I've never found out!

But that aside, birth patterns have changed over time. A couple of centuries ago, couples having large numbers of children were the norm. From my observation of parish registers as the second hald of the 19th century progressed there was the beginning of a slow move towards smaller families. But, when a family has several children in regular succession and then there is a gap; this arouses curiosity. It may well be as you mention, just a late child, but - there may be something else and as you wrote in another post, it's best to keep an open mind.

Geoffers

[vicaby]

I apprecitate the problem, it does however, help to provide some simple basics such as a name, date and place of birth. That way specific names can be used, so that the replies make more sense to individuals, rather than referring to the parents and grandparents of gt-grandparents. As a bear of simple brain, this always confuses me :)

continued....
Sometimes giving specifics is more confusing! On both sides of the family I have several instances of father & son having the same names & being born in the same area, the only way to separate them in (eg) e-mails is by giving birth dates which is tedious!
OK then, as you ask...
my gran Frances Annie Richardson, known as Annie, sister Rose Ellen. Born Guisborough, Middlesbrough, 18 March 1885.
Father Thomas Richardson. born c1841/2 in Swanscombe, Kent (Census info). Mother Agnes born c.1844/45 in Bristol, Somerset. Census info 1881,1891 & 1901 is consistent.
Older children Catherine b.1872 & Jessie b.1875 have mother's maiden name on cert. given as TOVEY. Likely marriage Richardson/Tovey is Dartford 1866.
If Agnes nee Tovey died, it would have been between 1875-1881 most likely in North Yorks.

[Geoffers]

Sometimes giving specifics is more confusing! On both sides of the family I have several instances of father & son having the same names & being born in the same area
Yes, it can get confusing with same names; in my own reseach I have three Williams giving birth to three Williams within 2 miles and 20 months of each other, to add to the confusion, each other mothers is called Ann.

One of the ways I've used to show the difference is with the facility to colour script on these forums, so you could refer to the father and son with same names in different colours. Just a passing thought.

continued.......

[Geoffers]

Father Thomas Richardson. born c1841/2 in Swanscombe, Kent (Census info). Mother Agnes born c.1844/45 in Bristol, Somerset. Census info 1881,1891 & 1901 is consistent.
Thanks, that's all that's needed to summarise things. Since you have the birth of Catherine c.1872 (and obviously a birthplace from the census) - have you then been able to find the RICHARDSON family in the 1871 census?

If Agnes's birthplace and age are consistne tin 1871, I think you could discount as a remote possibility that Thomas had married twice - at least put that to the last of your options to pursue.

The marriage in 1866 looks very promising and as mentioned in an earlier post, the detail that provides may assist in finding clues as to why Agnes's surname changes. Also with the marriage certificate and hopefully (I can't find a smiley for fingers crossed) the name of Agnes's father, you will stand a better chance of locating Agnes in the 1861 census which may help. It's just a nusiance her being born in a large city. Have you tried searching the IGI for a baptism for Agnes TOVEY / POWELL?

Good luck and let us know how you get on with the certificates.

Geoffers

[vicaby]

Have just looked at the 1871 census & its just messed things up!
Family is still in Swanscombe, but Agnes place of birth is given as Swanscombe!!! The rest of the details tie in, eg ages & children. No trace of Agnes Tovey in 1861. Children born prior to the twins had mother Tovey, so I'm thinking more likely a second marriage for Thomas between 1875 & 1881. Still can't find anything likely though!
1881 census has them living further down the street than the 1885 address. In those times surely they couldn't have got away with not being legally married?

[Geoffers]

Have just looked at the 1871 census & its just messed things up! Family is still in Swanscombe, but Agnes place of birth is given as Swanscombe!!!These things are sent to try us! Is the birthplace given as 'ditto' or actually written - are there other birthplaces on the page? Sometimes enumerators or people completing census schedules were lazy and just wrote down the same thing all along. However, it may also support the possibility of a second marriage. Wait till you get the marriage certificate and see what that says.


No trace of Agnes Tovey in 1861. Any Toveys at all born or living in Swanscombe and/or Bristol? I just wonder if she may have been indexed under the wrong forename. I've come across Agnes being shown as Ann in the past


In those times surely they couldn't have got away with not being legally married?They could easily have lived together without being married, there are quite a few posts on these forums to testify to the fact, I'm sure I can remember one where a couple had children for 10 or more years - something like that and then got hitched.
Geoffers

[vicaby]

Thank you everyone who has contributed to this.
Apparently Agnes Tovey had a twin sister Emma. I have made contact with one of her descendents & between us we think we have sorted it out, thanks to a couple of pieces of luck with census data.

Agnes & her twin were legitimately born to Thomas & Frances Tovey. Thomas died in 1851, (fortuitously just after the 1851 census which showed us another child). Frances then remarried in 1852, to Joseph Powell. 1881 census has her with Emma (then married, with Frances Powell shown as Mother-in-Law). 1871 census has her living with the other married daughter. Frances died in June 1882.

I am still at a loss to know why Agnes gave her former name as Tovey all the time her mother was alive, but seems to have changed her mind after she died!

As a postscript, I am now curious to know what is on her death cert.

regards
Vicky