JOSEPH JOHN BRAWDY 1833

[ROY JOHN]

I have hit the proverbial 'brick wall' regarding my great grandfather Joseph JOHN. Born in Brawdy area in 1833. His father was William JOHN a farmer (labourer). Joseph married Martha Mathias in May 1876 and later Mary Ann TAYLOR from Llanstadwell. They lived in Clarence Street Pembroke Dock where Joseph finished as a grocer. He played for Neyland Rovers RFC during 1907 to 1909
I can find no record of Joseph's birth, apparently in Brawdy.
Is there anyone out there who has any information, anything that may help will be appreciated.

Thank you

[Peter Goodey]

Have you checked non-conformist registers?

For example there's a Joseph JOHN bap 1834 in Whitchurch (Independent).

RG4/3920

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C2494586

[christanel]

I have hit the proverbial 'brick wall' regarding my great grandfather Joseph JOHN. Born in Brawdy area in 1833. His father was William JOHN a farmer (labourer). Joseph married Martha Mathias in May 1876 and later Mary Ann TAYLOR from Llanstadwell. They lived in Clarence Street Pembroke Dock where Joseph finished as a grocer. He played for Neyland Rovers RFC during 1907 to 1909
I can find no record of Joseph's birth, apparently in Brawdy.
Is there anyone out there who has any information, anything that may help will be appreciated.

Thank you

Am I misreading something here? Joseph would have been about 74 in 1907. :smile5:

There is an entry on familysearch.org

Joseph John age 66 estimated birth year 1833
Buried 16 May 1899 At Pembroke Dock, St John, Pembrokeshire, Wales

The image is available on Findmypast (FMP)

Christina

[ROY JOHN]

Am I misreading something here? Joseph would have been about 74 in 1907. :smile5:

There is an entry on familysearch.org

Joseph John age 66 estimated birth year 1833
Buried 16 May 1899 At Pembroke Dock, St John, Pembrokeshire, Wales

The image is available on Findmypast (FMP)

Christina

Thank you Christina,
I am aware of a Joseph john burial detail. However I am at a loss how this joseph finished in a workhouse as both he and Mary Ann appeared to be comfortably off, in fact Mary Ann had a property in Churchfields Llanstadwell.

Roy

[christanel]

On familysearch.org
Joseph John
Born 28 April 1834
Christened 22 May 1834
Father - William John
Mother Jane Griffith
At Bethel Sardis and Tabernacle Ind. or Cong, St Florence St Issels and St Mary tenby, Pembroke Wales

This looks like him in 1841 with his parents. Whether he is your man or not?
HO107 piece 1452 book 2 folio 12 page 15
Log? Mill? B?
Wm John 44 Labourer
Jane John 40
Isac John 17 Labourer
Jane John 10
Thos John 8
Joseph John 7
Rebeca John 4
Mary John 1
All born in county. There is a Henry John on opposite page with his family and a Griffis (sic) family at the top of the same page. Tenby and Brawdy approx. 30 miles apart.

Then at Narberth South there is also a Joseph John age 10 with William age 8 in the household of Thomas Evans a carpenter. On the opposite page is a Daniel John age 3 in a Griffiths household.
HO107 piece 1448 book 19 folio 9 page 9

Do you have Joseph John in the censuses prior to his marriage? I also see that there is a marriage record on FreeBMD in 1874 with a Joseph John and a Martha Mathias on the same page. Can there be two Joseph Johns and two Martha Mathias in Pembroke?

Was your Joseph John married previously? Was he a bachelor on the marriage cert?

Just trying to get my head around it all. :smile:

Christina

[ROY JOHN]

On familysearch.org
Joseph John
Born 28 April 1834
Christened 22 May 1834
Father - William John
Mother Jane Griffith
At Bethel Sardis and Tabernacle Ind. or Cong, St Florence St Issels and St Mary tenby, Pembroke Wales

This looks like him in 1841 with his parents. Whether he is your man or not?
HO107 piece 1452 book 2 folio 12 page 15
Log? Mill? B?
Wm John 44 Labourer
Jane John 40
Isac John 17 Labourer
Jane John 10
Thos John 8
Joseph John 7
Rebeca John 4
Mary John 1
All born in county. There is a Henry John on opposite page with his family and a Griffis (sic) family at the top of the same page. Tenby and Brawdy approx. 30 miles apart.

Then at Narberth South there is also a Joseph John age 10 with William age 8 in the household of Thomas Evans a carpenter. On the opposite page is a Daniel John age 3 in a Griffiths household.
HO107 piece 1448 book 19 folio 9 page 9

Do you have Joseph John in the censuses prior to his marriage? I also see that there is a marriage record on FreeBMD in 1874 with a Joseph John and a Martha Mathias on the same page. Can there be two Joseph Johns and two Martha Mathias in Pembroke?

Was your Joseph John married previously? Was he a bachelor on the marriage cert?

Just trying to get my head around it all. :smile:

Christina

Wow thank you Christina,
I am aware of the the Tenby link, but the census clearly shows he was from Brawdy and that is quite a long way from Tenby. The marriage certificate for his marriage to Martha showed him as a single man. Martha was a tenant in the house where he was head in Clarence Street Pembroke Dock 1882.

Thank you for all your help

Roy

[gasser]

...and two Martha Mathias in Pembroke?


Yes....FreeBMD has these
Births Mar 1857 Mathias Martha Pembroke 11a 645
Births Jun 1858 Mathias Martha Pembroke 11a 714

[christanel]

Thank you Christina,
I am aware of a Joseph john burial detail. However I am at a loss how this joseph finished in a workhouse as both he and Mary Ann appeared to be comfortably off, in fact Mary Ann had a property in Churchfields Llanstadwell.
Roy

Hi Roy
The only Joseph John I have found in a workhouse at the moment is in 1901 RG13; piece 5011 folio 131 page 4. It says he is a coal miner age 66, Single and born St Davids.

I see your Joseph with Mary Ann, their son Joseph age 6 (is he the one who played for Neyland Rovers?) Mary's mother and Aunt
1891 RG12 Piece 4529 Folio 106 Page 17

Mary Ann and Joseph T age 16 in 1901 RG13 piece 5126 folio 5 page 2.

So Mary Ann is a widow in 1901 and a dress maker so she is not as comfortably off as in 1991 when Joseph was a grocer.

This could be her husband's death
Joseph John age 66 estimated birth year 1833
Buried 16 May 1899 At Pembroke Dock, St John, Pembrokeshire, Wales

The bloke in the workhouse is not your Joseph.

Christina

[christanel]

Yes....FreeBMD has these
Births Mar 1857 Mathias Martha Pembroke 11a 645
Births Jun 1858 Mathias Martha Pembroke 11a 714

Thanks gasser :biggrin:

[ROY JOHN]

Hi Roy
The only Joseph John I have found in a workhouse at the moment is in 1901 RG13; piece 5011 folio 131 page 4. It says he is a coal miner age 66, Single and born St Davids.

I see your Joseph with Mary Ann, their son Joseph age 6 (is he the one who played for Neyland Rovers?) Mary's mother and Aunt
1891 RG12 Piece 4529 Folio 106 Page 17

Mary Ann and Joseph T age 16 in 1901 RG13 piece 5126 folio 5 page 2.

So Mary Ann is a widow in 1901 and a dress maker so she is not as comfortably off as in 1991 when Joseph was a grocer.

This could be her husband's death
Joseph John age 66 estimated birth year 1833
Buried 16 May 1899 At Pembroke Dock, St John, Pembrokeshire, Wales

The bloke in the workhouse is not your Joseph.

Christina

Hi Christina,
My grandfather was Joseph Taylor JOHN. His father Joseph was the rugby player.
How can I thank you enough for all your efforts. I will look into the burial records for the date you have given me. i will let you know what I find out.

Once again my sincere thanks

\Roy

[christanel]

You could order the death certificate from Here (https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp) for the death registered in 1899 using the details on FreeBMD which means the surname is Johns not John. Then specify that the wife's name must be Mary and possibly the husband's occupation grocer but not necessarily so. If the wife is not Mary then you will get a refund.

Deaths Jun 1/4 1899
Joseph Johns age 66 Pembroke vol 11a page 618

[gasser]

My grandfather was Joseph Taylor JOHN. His father Joseph was the rugby player.


Son Joseph Taylor John aged 16 in 1901 with widowed mother Mary Ann......
Is it just me being thick or what? How can someone play rugby 1907/1909 who supposedly died in 1899 :confused5:

[janbooth]

There is this Non-conformist baptism on Ancestry from St Florence Independent Pembrokeshire register:

"Joseph the son of William JOHN by Jane GRIFFITHS his wife, now of Jamestown Manorbier, lately of Old Pound? Pencilly (Pencelli??) was born on the 28th April and baptized on 22 May following in the year 1834"

Now, I don't know if this could be a red herring or not, but given the Brawdy connection there is another Non-conformist baptism on 23 November 1823 at Brawdy, Trefgarn Independent or Congregational of a Thomas JOHN son of William & Hannah JOHN. Another baptism at Brawdy to the same couple this time of an Allet JOHN who was born at St Lawrence Ludlow on 28 July 1826 and baptised at Brawdy on 3 September 1826, and yet another, this time a Sarah JOHN born at St Lawrence Ludlow on 7 December 1831 and baptised at Brawdy on 29 January 1832. Yet a couple more, both born at Ludlow but baptised at Brawdy Independent, Ann born 2 January and baptised 2 March 1834 and James born 14 April and baptised 23 May 1836 but no Joseph. Intriguing, as there is obviously a William JOHN having children baptised at Brawdy around the time of your Joseph's birth!

Janet

[christanel]

Son Joseph Taylor John aged 16 in 1901 with widowed mother Mary Ann......
Is it just me being thick or what? How can someone play rugby 1907/1909 who supposedly died in 1899 :confused5:

No gasser it is me also. John, great grandfather would have been 74 years old too if alive so a bit old to be playing club rugby.
:smile:
Christina

[janbooth]

I think Ancestry have their churches muddled a bit! On further investigation, it looks as if St Lawrence is actually in Pembrokeshire not Ludlow as Ancestry have transcribed it. Sorry for any confusion. Strangely, I do not appear to be able to find this family in the 1841 census at the moment to see if there is a Joseph with them but will keep looking.

Janet

[gasser]

No gasser it is me also. John, great grandfather would have been 74 years old too if alive so a bit old to be playing club rugby.
:smile:
Christina
Definitely! More likely his son, but Roy says otherwise (no offence here Roy!) The rugby club claims to have formed in 1885 and Joseph John(s) would have been in his 50's then! Could Joseph just have had 'connections' with the club through sponsorship or similar, seeing as he had been quite well off? Anyway, this is going off Roy's initial quest in find Joseph's birth record, which is proving to be a task in itself !! :wacko:
Gail

[ROY JOHN]

Thank you all so much for all your efforts.
I am sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but you are all correct Joseph Taylor played rugby for Neyland, you gather senility is creeping up here.
There was a Joseph John aged 10 living in Lochvane which is only a few miles from Brawdy in 1841. He was living with a Mary Howells a farmer, but I don't know of any link between them.

once again my thanks to you all.

Roy

[Orielbenfro]

Joseph John was buried in Section D plot 74 on the 16th May 1899 at Llanion Cemetery.

Sections A-G now form the circular feature of headstones at Llanion and are placed in no particular order, so require a long walk to see if the headstone still exists.

From my book on the Headstones of Park Street Cemetery Pembroke Dock (Closed to new burials from 1868, except for family plots) there are 2 William John buried there 1 in 1858 aged 77 (believed husband of Sarah) and 1 in 1884 aged 72.

Since there is no Joseph John baptised in the established church in the Dewisland Hundred circa 1833, it would appear most lightly that he is N-C.

Rgds
Owen Ap Benfro

[Orielbenfro]

"Joseph the son of William JOHN by Jane GRIFFITHS his wife, now of Jamestown Manorbier, lately of Old Pound? Pencilly (Pencelli??) was born on the 28th April and baptized on 22 May following in the year 1834"
Janet

Given that all mrge pre Sept 1837 had to take place in the established church irrespective of faith followed, the following may well be the mrge of William & Jane ;
William Johns a widower and labourer married Jane Griffiths at Penally 27th June 1829

Rgds
Owen Ap Benfro