Problem with a Marriage Certificate

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

I hope someone can help me and tell me what to do next? A couple of years ago, I found a marriage entry on the IGI (a true extraction) for a couple and yesterday I received a copy of the marriage certificate.

The marriage was at the Parish Church of Saint Peter in Nottingham, above the signature of the Registrar, it says: Parish Church - Rites and Ceremonies - Established Church by Licence by me - R.W. Almond Rector.

Date of 9th February 1841 - Erasmus WELBY of Full age Bachelor and Mary Ann HALL Minor Spinster - then just before the column which gives occupation of Surgeon, this is written:

Provided that a previous marriage in Scotland is invalid.

:eek: Help please?

[Mythology]

I don't know, but, as a starter ....

We know from the probate notes to my Robert Bigsby's will that in June 1839 your Erasmus was assistant to Edward Gross, Surgeon, in Earl Soham, Suffolk.

If I remember rightly, your Erasmus did his medical training at Edinburgh - it's mentioned on a census entry, isn't it? In 1839 he'd have been about 24-25 years old going by the 1815 baptism, so I would *assume* that this was before he became assistant to Edward Gross.

I would *assume*, therefore, that Erasmus has married some time prior to June 1839, probably in Edinburgh, but for some reason the marriage was invalid. (Given the way your Welbys carried on, the bride was probably his sister. ;) )

Nothing shows up on Scotland's People - but I know very little about Scottish records. I have no idea (a) how complete things are and (b) whether, if a marriage was declared invalid, the entry may have subsequently been crossed out and not indexed.

[Peter Goodey]

I can't help with Scotland I'm afraid but do you think it might be worthwhile getting a copy of the marriage licence?

[Mythology]

In a case like this, yes, it's certainly worth a shot, isn't it? There may just possibly be something more detailed on the licence that took up too much room for the liking of Mr. Almond when he made the register entry - nothing ventured, nothing gained, and all that.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

I can't help with Scotland I'm afraid but do you think it might be worthwhile getting a copy of the marriage licence?
Could you or Myth :D tell me how to do that please? :)

[Geoffers]

The marriage was at the Parish Church of Saint Peter in Nottingham, Date of 9th February 1841 - Erasmus WELBY of Full age Bachelor and Mary Ann HALL Minor Spinster - then just before the column which gives occupation of Surgeon, this is written:
Provided that a previous marriage in Scotland is invalid
I've only ever come across one similar entry (Aylsham, Norfolk 1810) - there the vicar has written a long note about the marriage in Scotland. It may be possible that there is a fuller note in the parish register, which has not been copied into the certificate - this might then lead you to the place of the invalid marriage. Possibly something to check as and when you have time?

Geoffers

[Mythology]

Yes, that's another thing that's worth a shot - you just never know what might turn up with these things until you look, like the Death Duty register entry for one of Patrisia's lot where the clerk has copied out almost the entire contents of the will - just as well, because it looks as though the will itself (a Somerset one) is probably one of those lost in the Exeter fire.

Re the licence. I realise you're housebound these days, but how much does your hubby love you? ;)
(Gerry will kill me for this!)

First thing I'd try is the Archdeaconry of Nottingham records, at Nottingham University. I've no idea whether you need a reader's card or anything, never been there myself, so check that out first, but if you can persuade him to trundle along there and dig out AN/MB/237, that's the bundle for 1841. Their catalogue says it's the bonds, which can't be right, they didn't have bonds in 1841, so it'll be the allegations, but that's the obvious one for starters.

A bit out of my territory here, but from what I can make out, the other two possibilities would be:
Archbishop of York - at the Borthwick Institute.
Archbishop of Canterbury (Faculty Office, not Vicar General) - forget that one, I'm in the middle of my quarterly SoG member's freebie (hence the other Welby info in my e-mail which I won't clog this thread up with), so checked that on British Origins already, and no joy.

[Peter Goodey]

Notts marriage licences are at the University. Drop them an email including your full postal address to confirm that they've got it and they'll send you the copyright form which you sign and return together with the money. It's quite cheap - I've got several!


http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/

Dept of Manuscripts & Special Collections
Hallward Library
University of Nottingham
University Park
NOTTINGHAM
NG7 2RD

[email protected]

[Peter Goodey]

PS


To avoid misleading anyone else, Nottingham University has the records of the Archdeaconry of Nottingham which is what Diane needs.

They do not have records relating to the Peculiar of Southwell which are at Notts Archives.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Geoffers & Myth :D

Thank you both for your replies and with ref to:
Re the licence. I realise you're housebound these days, but how much does your hubby love you?
(Gerry will kill me for this!)
The answer is 'not enough' and consider yourself already dead if I'd let Gerry read your message! Getting him to even set foot in Nottingham, is as likely as a big win on the Lottery! However, if we did win, then I could pay a Researcher to do it for me!

Thank you for the email and the transcription of the 1841 Census, the answer is Yes ...... I have Elizabeth in 1861, aged 81 and still in Farndon. Adlard is the elder brother of Erasmus, born 1809 ...... he was married then, so I don't know where wife Clara is, seeing as she's not with him.

I received a huge parcel this morning from Australia, papers one inch thick, it cost a fortune to send by air mail. I haven't had a chance to study everything yet, but in my next message, I'll tell you some snippets. I had this bit in my file already concerning Adlard ..... Father of Erasmus, but now I have the gory details!

Adlard and his wife, Elizabeth, separated in 1819.

Adlard went to live in Italy with his mistress, Mary Hutchinson and he lived there until she died. They had eleven children, the first one was born before Erasmus in 1815, to his wife Elizabeth.

Adlard did for a time live in America and wrote a book called A visit to North America and the English Settlements in Illinois, London 1821.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Notts marriage licences are at the University. Drop them an email including your full postal address to confirm that they've got it and they'll send you the copyright form which you sign and return together with the money. It's quite cheap - I've got several!


http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/mss/

Dept of Manuscripts & Special Collections
Hallward Library
University of Nottingham
University Park
NOTTINGHAM
NG7 2RD

[email protected]
Thank you Peter :) - I was typing my last message and have only just seen these two of yours. I shall certainly do what you suggest.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Myth :D
Adlard married Elizabeth HALL who was the daughter of the Rev.Thomas HALL of Westborough, Lincolnshire, I don't know the name of her Mother as yet - it may be in the info I received today. Adlard did not get a divorce, so his social position was ruined, hence the trip to America then.

Erasmus trained at King's College, London where he gained the qualifications of MRCS., LRCP., LSA. then gained the degree of MD at St. Andrews. The reason I couldn't find him in 1881, is because he went to Biarritz, France aged 64 and returned to the UK in 1890.

In his Will, apart from the money he left to his children, there were gifts of gold watches, rings, two shooting guns and a revolver. His medical instruments he left to his son, William Montague Hall Welby. It also mentions that William practised at 38 Caledonian Road, North London, before becoming Asst. Surgeon to the 2nd Waikato Regiment in N.Z. (I found that info out myself as you know).

Possibly, William MHW was struck off? After returning from NZ, he disappeared from the Medical Directory about 1891. I found him in 1901 Census as a Chemist's Asst. but nowhere to be found in the 1881 or 1891.

[Mythology]

"Adlard married Elizabeth HALL "

OK - with you there, this is Adlard senior we're talking about, not Erasmus's brother Adlard, married 1801. She's Elizabeth Mary Hall, and that's the Elizabeth Mary Welby, 60, who I spotted on the 1841, with Adlard junior next door, minus his wife. So (you needn't answer this!) what is the relationship between her and (a) the Ann Hall, 55, who is living with her and (b) the Mary Ann Hall who her son, Erasmus, married? Is Ann her unmarried sister, or is she Mary Ann Hall's widowed/deserted mother - or is Mary Ann Hall illegitimate, so the answer is "both"? :D

Your lot are beginning to look like an upper class version of my bunch of emigrant inbred village idiots!

Have fun - I look forward to the news when you've had time to digest all the info from Australia, but don't rush it, get it sorted out in your own head first before you confuse mine.

Oh - and it was St Andrews, not Edinburgh, was it? Ah well, I knew it was somewhere north of Watford, can't be expected to remember all the details in my head, now, can I? ;)

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Myth :D

I've just answered Geoffers on another thread, read this posting of yours, so will now say nite-nite! As usual, when I get tired (not normally on the puter after 7.30p.m. as you know) I get confused, so I end up confusing you too! Sorry about that, but yes, you got it in one ..... you're right of course, at this stage I haven't a clue as to who Ann Hall is, so when I'm all sorted out, I'll let you know. ;)

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

I'm still wading through all the info I received ..... but I've just found something written on a separate section of the family tree (starts with Erasmus Welby m. Mary Anne Hall and shows their descendants).

Alongside Mary Anne Hall's name, this is written:
b. 1822
m. 1840 (Gretna Green)
m. 9 Feb 1841
d. 1875?

Not Erasmus with a previous marriage in Scotland then! ;)

[Mythology]

Ooh! Well, that's a Pippin's bonfire, isn't it? I'm glad I stressed the word "assume" in my original message - on the wrong track completely!

So - we have a border-hopper dodging the stroppy parents. Fat lot of good it did her, by the look of it, if the fellow who "persuaded" her has shoved off within the year.

Two possibilities show up on the Gretna Green database - three if you allow for the fact that she may have used "Ann" rather than "Mary", but (you won't like this!) no way of selecting a year to narrow things down and at £15 a shot just for the *details* of what's in the register, not an actual copy, I think you may decide that it's a bit of a rip-off and shelve it.

Ann Hall & Thos Harraday
Mary Hall & Francis Culiton
Mary Hall & William Wiser

I've no idea how complete their database is - there is not much info on the site other than the fact that it basically covers 1795 to 1895, but if you're interested it's at
http://www.achievements.co.uk/services/gretna/index.php

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Myth :D

I've never heard of a Pippins bonfire ..... is it good? Maybe Mary Ann was being forced to marry Erasmus by her Parents, so she tried to escape with the love of her life? I can't help it if I'm a romantic soul! :)

Yes, I will shelve that idea at £15, although I'll have a look at the site for pure nosiness ...... thank you for trying to find out for me though.

What about Peter's message ..... is it any good if I go ahead with that or not?

[Mythology]

Yes, I certainly would - I've not used them myself and didn't realise how helpful they are. Peter's suggestion is obviously a lot better than my one of sending Gerry along and (assuming they have it) even if it doesn't enlighten you as to who the groom was you will at least end up with a genuine copy of something relevant to put in your collection without any great expense.

In my book, that's a better use of the pennies than sending a speculative £15 for a transcript of what could relate to the marriage of a completely different Mary Hall in 1803, then another £15 for one relating to another different Mary Hall in 1862, then another £15 for one relating to an Ann Hall in 1886, with somebody in Canterbury rubbing their hands with glee at the thought of having conned yet another mug.

Nottingham Univeristy will, we are advised by Peter, send you a copyright form to fill in - that's normal practice, I fill these in when, for instance, getting fiche copies from Suffolk RO.
With the other lot, I wouldn't be surprised if they acknowledge your donation to their drinking fund by recognising your gullibility and offering to send (at a special reduced price, of course) a form to fill in to become an Honorary US citizen, omitting to mention that it's only the *form* that you're paying for, not actually becoming a US cit. ;)

"Maybe Mary Ann was being forced to marry Erasmus by her Parents, so she tried to escape with the love of her life? I can't help it if I'm a romantic soul!"

or

Maybe Mary Ann was up the duff, so the bloke promised to marry her to shut her up, then ditched her as soon as he'd found another job well out of earshot. I can't help it if I'm an unromatic soul! :p

"Poppin's bonfire". Errrr .... sorry - typed that without thinking. This is what comes of having a stepfather who permanently spoke in riddles. If you have read "Lord of the Rings" you will be familiar with the character known as Pippin. His proper name is Peregrin Took. A Pippin's bonfire is, therefore, a burn up for the Tooks = a turn up for the books.

I'll get my coat .....

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Dear Mr. Unromantic Myth :D ...... Thanks for the explanation of Pippins Bonfire (very good!)
I'll write to Nottingham University and of course, I'll let you know if I can find out anything more.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

"Maybe Mary Ann was being forced to marry Erasmus by her Parents, so she tried to escape with the love of her life? I can't help it if I'm a romantic soul!"

or

Maybe Mary Ann was up the duff, so the bloke promised to marry her to shut her up, then ditched her as soon as he'd found another job well out of earshot. I can't help it if I'm an unromatic soul! :p

|bowdown| Myth ....... You know how it is? When something is staring you in the face and you can't see the wood for the trees?
Marriage date: 09 Feb 1841 William MH Welby bap. 17 Jan 1842 (born 1841) and the eldest child, Harriette Madeleine Welby born 1841?!?! according to this from the Deaths in The Times:

http://uk.geocities.com/[email protected]/WelbyHarriette.jpg

I'll now get my coat .......

[AnnB]

Hello Diane

In an idle moment, I've just found something which you possibly already know about, but as it was very interesting thought I'd tell you anyway :rolleyes:
Have you seen http://sleafordmuseum.org.uk/DBTemp/artefact.asp?ID=U175 It is about the 'Memorandums and Reflections of Adlard Welby of Rauceby Hall'
Sorry if this is old ground....

In case you haven't caught up with my posting on the 50% off thread I thought you might like the snippet from the North Devon Journal of 6.9.1832 with regard to teeth, seeing as you have lost a couple lately ;)
'At East Retford, aged 83, Mrs Giniver. This venerable lady when in her 81st year, cut three teeth.'

Best wishes
Ann

[Peter Goodey]

Lincs Archives:-

The journals of Adlard Welby

Catalogue Ref. MISC DON 969
Creator(s):
Welby, Adlard, 1776-1861

[from Scope and Content] Adlard Welby, the youngest child of William Welby and his wife, Elizabeth, was born in Islington on 3 October 1776. In 1801 he married Elizabeth Mary Hall, the daughter of the Rev. Thomas Hall of Westborough, and shortly afterwards the couple settled in South Rauceby. The marriage produced numerous children, but was evidently unsuccessful, as Adlard separated from his wife in April 1819. Following their estrangement, Adlard continued to live in South Rauceby and subsequently acquired South Rauceby Hall (he retained this property until 1832, when it was sold to Anthony Peacock-Willson).

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

http://sleafordmuseum.org.uk/DBTemp/artefact.asp?ID=U175 It is about the 'Memorandums and Reflections of Adlard Welby of Rauceby Hall'
Sorry if this is old ground....

'At East Retford, aged 83, Mrs Giniver. This venerable lady when in her 81st year, cut three teeth.'

Best wishes
Ann
Thanks for the link Ann, I've bookmarked it and will have a look when I have a minute.

Ooops .... sorry Ann, I read your message about cutting teeth, I forgot to answer it, as I got so snowed under with the Welby's!
Although it would be very nice if that happened to me, keep your fingers crossed that I only cut one (bottom molar) as the other one I lost, was at the front ..... and I've got a 'bridge' over the gap! :eek:

[Mythology]

Diane, much as I'd like to laugh my socks off, I'm afraid there's a bit of a letdown re Harriet.
Note that she is eldest *daughter* in the newspaper extract, not eldest *child*.
FreeBMD has Harriette Madeline Welby 1842 Dec Q (a year after WMHW who is in 1841 Dec Q births) Newark 15 516.
I doubt if there are two of them, so the lady's age has evidently been exaggerated a little, though it might be worth getting the cert just in case it's a late registration - your Welbys could afford the fine! How does a late 1842 birth date fit with anything you have on a census for her?

Incidentally - re WMHW baptised Uttoxter. Adlard (junior) and Clara's son, Richard, was baptised there 1840, so as well as Erasmus and Mary, that's probably where absent Clara is in 1841 - Adlard's just visiting mother in Notts I guess.

(Edit)
Afterthought;
Put the birth cert on hold. The census was *June* 1841 and WMHW is in the December quarter 1841 births. If Harriet *is* an inheritance from Mary Ann's little escapade, not a true Welby, she'll be on the 1841 when we find Erasmus, won't she? :)

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Lincs Archives:-

The journals of Adlard Welby

Catalogue Ref. MISC DON 969
Creator(s):
Welby, Adlard, 1776-1861

[from Scope and Content] Adlard Welby, the youngest child of William Welby and his wife, Elizabeth, was born in Islington on 3 October 1776. In 1801 he married Elizabeth Mary Hall, the daughter of the Rev. Thomas Hall of Westborough, and shortly afterwards the couple settled in South Rauceby. The marriage produced numerous children, but was evidently unsuccessful, as Adlard separated from his wife in April 1819. Following their estrangement, Adlard continued to live in South Rauceby and subsequently acquired South Rauceby Hall (he retained this property until 1832, when it was sold to Anthony Peacock-Willson).
Hi Peter,
Many thanks for this, the person in Australia who sent me a big parcel a couple of days ago, has told me that copies of Adlard's journals are held by some Members of the family. She has requested that copies be sent to me, so I live in hope! :D

The only different info I have to the above is that after the separation in 1819, Adlard and his mistress, Mary Hutchinson, then went to live in America for two years, but he was disillusioned, so upon returning to South Rauceby, he wrote a book called *A visit to North America and the English Settlements in Illinois,* London 1821.

Adlard left the Village in 1832, to live in Italy with Mary Hutchinson and they had eleven children altogether.

He first leased, (but later in 1841) sold Rauceby Hall and the Estate, to Anthony Peacock (later a name change to Willson).

After the death of Mary Hutchinson, Adlard returned to England in 1858 and settled in Islington until his death.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

|bowdown| Myth ..... this is getting to be a habit, but what would I do without you? (Don't answer that!) I seem to be eating, sleeping Welby's at the moment, but I suppose all will come right 'in the wash' eventually ... I hope! Thanks for all the info ..... I'll find out out what I can re Census tomorrow.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Myth :D No joy with Harriette in Censuses 1861-1901 inclusive, although I will check the index on 1901 Online in a minute. So many of the Welby's were abroad for years, so maybe Harriette lived abroad too ...... just returned to England in her later years?

[Mythology]

I'll keep an eye out for her in the wilds of Wyoming, then - if she's anywhere near my lot, you're in *real* trouble!

Best of luck

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Myth :D
"Maybe Mary Ann was being forced to marry Erasmus by her Parents, so she tried to escape with the love of her life? I can't help it if I'm a romantic soul!"
The above applies, if the Groom at the Gretna Green marriage, wasn't Erasmus as you mentioned! I'm still waiting in the queue to hear back from Nottingham University re the 1841 marriage, but I've just received an email from my contact ...... Harriette is a Welby. :)

William Montague Hall Welby born 25th. Nov 1841 Uttoxeter
Harriette Madeleine Welby born 22nd. Nov 1842 Uttoxeter

[Mythology]

"Harriette Madeleine Welby born 22nd. Nov 1842 Uttoxeter"

I doubt it - it's a Newark reference.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Ooops! Pure carelessness on my part, sorry ....... I typed Uttoxeter again! |blush| She was born in Brant Broughton, Lincolnshire.

Going back to the 'romance' saga though, it looks as though Adlard Welby Senior didn't want Erasmus to marry Mary Ann either. If she was forced to marry him by her Parents, she sure got her revenge! :D

Adlard Welby's Journal is somewhat critical of Erasmus, as he wrote at various times:

"Erasmus paid too much for his Practice, his wife is extravagant and a bad manager, so he is always short of money."

"Erasmus avoids Society and lives what is called close, which may be most agreeable with a wife after a man's heart, who has sense and mental resources to aid him in passing his hours of leisure .... but such a plan will not do well, nor is it right, for a professional man whose duty, as well as interest, should lead him to associate with his Neighbours. With good management, the expense need not be great, it would certainly increase the list on his books. What he feels, I know not, but even as a sojourner, life drags."

"This evening, I found Erasmus and his wife in most sleepy or desponding gloominess, with the remains of one candle upon the table at their backs. I cannot understand this couple, discontent seems to reign uppermost with them, to which is added sloth."

"Erasmus is too much like his Mother."

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

I received my copy about five minutes ago, in respect of the WELBY/HALL marriage in 1841.

It doesn't mention anything about a previous marriage for Mary Anne HALL, at Gretna Green in 1840, but Erasmus WELBY made an Oath to the effect that he knows of no impediment why the marriage in 1841 shouldn't take place.

The interesting thing I have found out though, is that Mary Anne's Parents must have died before 1841, as Erasmus states that he has the consent to marry Mary Anne (a minor), of her two Guardians ...... a Mr. James STANBOROUGH and a Mr. Thomas KNIGHT.

Her Mother was Harriet nee STANBOROUGH. :)

[Mythology]

Oh well, we can forget that idea about her parents making her marry Erasmus then, can't we?

Shame that there's nothing about the Gretna Green one on it. I have a feeling that one could prove difficult and expensive to track down - if a record even exists and it wasn't some hedge-parson whose register disappeared with him.

Still at least you learnt something from it - I always reckon that, for what little they cost, these sort of odds and ends are worth going for because you just never know what *might* turn up.

Speaking of which .....
Do you remember that will of John Wallinger that solved the mystery of (a) how 5x great-grandfather's brother, a "servant" on his marriage licence, managed to buy the lease of Wickford Hall, (b) why he says he's living in Fulham when he gets married and (c) why 5xgg gives "Hare Hall" as his address in 1758?
Well, I'm going to have to chase the Marquis of Exeter now - see if he left a load of dosh to his servants too. There's an entry in the British Record Society's Suffolk wills stuff for an admon for my Jemima Bridgman. "Bridgman late Finch" is an obvious cock-up by somebody - Jemima's *daughter* (also Jemima) *married* John Finch. So - I looked up the Death Duty Register entry to see what that said. Sure enough, the deceased is Jemima Bridgman of Stansfield, Suffolk, and it's granted to Jemima Finch, wife of John Finch of Stamford, Lincolnshire ......
..... Coachman to the Marquis of Exeter.

Oh no! Not *another* one working as a coachman for the nobs! :eek:

(No wonder Raving Ronnie got all those crazy ideas about our lot being descended from the aristocracy into his head :D )

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Myth :D
I'm pleased I bought the copy, as it was worth it to find out the extra info about Mary Anne's Guardians.

Yes, your lot seem lucky to have been employed by generous 'nobs' don't they? ;) Thanks for mentioning Raving Ronnie ...... I'd forgotten about him and his Earl of Shrewsbury theory!

[Mythology]

:D

Going off the topic of your marriage here, but you'll like this, I think.

I suspected that Stamford, "Lincolnshire" was actually the bit of Stamford across the river in Northamptonshire, because that's where I have the Finch couple on every census from 1851 until they fall over and die.
Makes sense, because I find that Burghley House, which is on the Northants side, belonged to the Marquess of Exeter.
John Finch is still a coachman in 1861, but not in 1871.
The second Marquess of Exeter was Brownlow Cecil, 1795-1867. Possibly John ceased being coachman there when this fellow conked out - certainly worth a fiver for his will to see if there's a mention, and as I'm going to Holborn for Linda on Thursday anyway, I can look him up at the same time.

Note the name though - Brownlow Cecil.

So, *that's* where my Bennetts, related to this Bridgman/Finch lot, got the name of "Brownlow Dove Bennett" from for their son - this Suffolk shower have done the same as the Essex crowd and nicked the names from unrelated aristocracy!

:D

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Myth :D
Thanks for the snippet of interesting info, perhaps John inherited a tidy sum and was able to buy his own coach and consequently set up his own *taxi* business? ;)

"Brownlow Dove Bennett" ...... A very unusual name as you say, makes you wonder now where the "Dove" bit came from!