Pallot's Marriage Index

[Betty Willson]

Beginning of July, I asked how to find the marriage record of my great great great grandparents, which appears on Pallot's Marriage Index for 1826 at St. Mary's, Marlebonne. Mythology kindly told me to try St. Mary's Bryanston Square. The tape finally arrived, this week, at the LDS centre near where I live but there is only a small section for that church and doesn't include the marriage of Robert Nelhams and Mary Walthew, my G.G.G. grandparents. Most of the tape is taken up with churches in Sussex. It consists of typewritten copies of Bishops Transcripts. If I could find names of witnesses to the marriage etc., I could possibly get a better idea of Mary Walthew's origins. I have no idea where she was born.

Thanks again Mythology. I appreciate your help. Have you any other uggestions? Betty Willson

[Mythology]

Not immediately, Betty - hang fire a bit.

If you remember, Plan B was the mother church, St Marylebone itself, on the basis that the "St Mary" on those Pallot's slips could be an abbreviation of that, rather than indicating that it was St Mary, Bryanston Square.

It shouldn't be, because St Marylebone marriages up to 1826 are in Boyd's (I did check the proper list later in case my scribbled note was wrong) and it isn't there.

That leaves us with a number of possibilities.

1) Boyd did not do the whole of 1826. This seems unlikely, because from the LMA catalogue, it is just one register that goes from January to December, nothing odd like a split part way through the year, but you never know.

2) Boyd missed it - like any index, Boyd's isn't perfect.

3) The Pallot's entry has the wrong year stamped on it. If it's 1827 onwards, that's not covered in Boyd's.

Now, if it is any of the above, in September I will be having a good bash at St Marylebone marriages in the 1820s myself. There are five which I know were there which I want copies of and, as I never trust any index, there is one elusive one which could have taken place any time between about 1825 and 1830 anywhere between Lands End and John o' Groats (he's from Aberdeen, she's from Suffolk, and the kids are born in Cheltenham) which, as so many others of the same family have turned up Marylebone, I intend checking for on the off-chance. So, if you don't mind hanging on for a few weeks, I can look for your one at the same time rather than you ordering yet another film.

Possibility (4) is, of course, that the Pallot's entry is completely wrong - somebody put the wrong stamp on those two slips, and it's not in Marylebone at all, on which case we are pretty well stuck.

Next time I'm at the Guildhall Library, I'll ask them to get their little book out which has all the notes about Pallot's, see what it says about the source. Like most things, it's inaccurate in places - the church where my 3x great grandparents married is certainly on Pallot's and isn't even listed in their book - but it may give us a clue, you never know.

[Betty Willson]

Thanks again for your help Mythology. Awhile ago, I stumbled on a marriage for F.J. Walthew to Elizabeth Bent at Trinity Church, St. Marylebone. It was in Bells Newspapers 1830/31. I guess, it is possible that F.J. was Mary Walthew's brother but at the time, I though it unlikely, as I doubt my g. g. grandparent's marriage would have rated a mention in Bell's Weekly. (I put an extra "great" in the last entry, by mistake). This marriage is also on Pallot's index and I could not find it either, on the tape at the LDS centre. It is a long tape and I am going back next week to have a second look at it and will concentrate on Trinty church. Of course, I don't mind hanging on. I've been at a dead end for months with my research. Any help you can give me is most appreciated. Betty Willson

[Peter Goodey]

These are at the London Metropolitan Archives

LONDON BOROUGH OF WESTMINSTER 1826 Jan - 1826 Dec X023/056 - index X102/072
SAINT MARYLEBONE, MARYLEBONE ROAD, WESTMINSTER
Register of marriages


LONDON BOROUGH OF WESTMINSTER 1826 Jan - 1826 Dec X100/341/ X100/342
SAINT MARYLEBONE: MARYLEBONE ROAD, WESTMINSTER
Transcript of baptisms, marriages and burials


This appears to be the successor of the ancient parish church.

[Mythology]

Yes, "St Marylebone" is "St Marylebone" - the register goes with the parish, not the bricks and mortar, so although they replaced the church with a new one a few yards along the road, it makes no difference to the registers.

What we have later on is an actual split-up, not a replacement church, in the 1820s - St Marylebone carries on as normal, but from July 1825 onwards you get three *additional* registers, for which I use LMA-style definitions based on the present day, ignoring minor details like the fact that Cosway Street didn't exist then - from memory I think it was Stafford Street. These three are:

All Souls, Langham Place
Marriages are on the IGI, and Betty had, in any case, already checked this one before discovering that the Pallot's slips included specific reference to "St Mary".

Christ Church, Cosway Street
Not on the IGI, and not in Boyd's. As a long shot, worth checking, but those of mine who married there are marked as such on the Pallot's slip - and if the slips for Betty's one are actually wrong in having that "St Mary" reference, there's no reason why it should be *anywhere* in Marylebone, so I would not hold out much hope.

St Mary, Bryanston Square
Not on the IGI, and not in Boyd's. With the specific reference to "St Mary" on the Pallot's slips, this is, therefore, the obvious first choice - but Betty has now checked it and found that it wasn't there.

(More follows - patience, 'cos I'm typing this as I go, not pasting in, so expect a ten minute delay at least - and there is a sting in the tail here!)

[Mythology]

(continued)

From June 1828 onwards, we have yet another additional church:

Holy Trinity, Marylebone Road
Not on the IGI, and not in Boyd's. However, if the 1826 marriage date is correct, it obviously can't be this one. Also, from what Betty says in her last message, it seems that the LDS have put this one the same film as St Mary, Bryanston Square, so she has that one to look at anyway.

That brings us back to the mother church, St Marylebone, Marylebone Road, which was "Plan B" - second choice after St Mary, Bryanston Square, on the basis that it is sometimes abbreviated to "St Mary" rather than "St Marylebone" - the latter sometimes being three words, sometimes with no terminal e, there are, as one might expect, a number of variations over the years!

Marriages are not on the IGI for the 1820s - but on my own list I have a scribbled note which says they are on Boyd's up to 1826, and Betty's marriage does not appear. I think this was something I jotted down one day at Westminster Archives when I was using their film copies rather than the LMA. Whatever, mindful of the fact that I could have screwed up, I checked the details given on British Origins, and that also says they go up to 1826, so we agree.

Like you, I found that the whole of 1826 is in one register, and I thought it unlikely that Mr Boyd would have just got fed up part way through and packed in half way through August or whenever! So, although it's obviously worth a shot in case Boyd missed it, it doesn't look hopeful, does it?

(a bit more to come)

[Mythology]

(final bit)

Now - the sting in the tail.

I am a complete cynic.

I approach family history the same way as I approach everything else in life - with the attitude that nobody on the entire planet is capable of ever getting anything right.

So, I went on to the British Origins site this morning, and used my usual "if in doubt, try Smith" method.

On the Boyd's search, I selected "MIDDLESEX" as the county, and "ST MARY LE BONE" as the parish, and threw in the surname Smith with a year range 1820 to 1826.

NO RESULTS !!!

Knowing what a busy church St Marylebone was, this struck me as highly improbable, to put it mildly.

Extending the year range, making it 1810 to 1826, produced 64 RESULTS - every single one of them in 1810, 1811 or 1812.

I flatly refuse to believe that 64 people by the name of Smith got married there in three years, and *none* in the following fourteen years!

Like every other damned list I've ever come across, it is obviously WRONG - coverage evidently finishes in 1812, not 1826, which makes things look a lot more hopeful as far as Betty's marriage being at St Marylebone is concerned, doesn't it?

[Betty Willson]

Thank you very much Mythology. Nothing to do with family research comes easy for me. I can't believe that after finding my g.g.grandparents marriage on Pallot's list, it is so difficult to find the actual marriage record. You have gone to such a lot of trouble on my behalf. I'm a bit of an idiot so if you can't find it, there is not much hope for me. At least, I know Mary Nelhams maiden was Walthew. She named her first son Walthew Robert. I thought that she just couldn't spell Walter, so it's a bit of a relief to know she named him after herself. I am going to the LDS centre again on Wednesday and will see if anyone knows if there is another tape for Marylebone available. I've printed out your messages so intend to study them now. best wishes, Betty Willson

[Betty Willson]

Thanks Peter Goodey, I'm still waiting for a tape of the 1851 census for Sunbury, you told me about. I am interested in your reply about these marriage records. There is a record of an order in Bankruptcy of my g. grandfather (1862) at the London Metropolitan Archives (i.e. the son-in-law of the g.g.granparents whose marriage record, I am seeking.) Do you think it is possible to write to someone there for copies of records etc. at a price? It all seems nigh impossible to me. Thanks again. Betty Willson

[Peter Goodey]

Betty


I've never used LMA's services remotely so can't really help. They have a research service but it's fairly expensive for the limited amount of information you want. Perhaps it would be best to contact their enquiry team setting out what you want, with references if you have them, and ask what they can suggest.

If I was planning to go there myself in the near future (I don't think I will be going in thext few weeks), I'd see what I could do to help. Perhaps someone else can suggest something.

The free enquiry service is described here -

http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corporation/leisure_heritage/libraries_archives_museums_galleries/JAS/lma/visitor_information/lma_enquiry_team.htm

The research service is here -

http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corporation/applications/family-research/family_history_research_service.htm

[mary t]

Found a marriage on Pallot's - William Kimpton - Garret, Eliz: Letitia
Stamp: S.And. Holborn 1803.
Wrote to LMA for Copy - They said they searched - whole 1803, St. Andrew Holborn; St. George Bloomsbury, St. George the Martyr, Queen Square, Holborn; St. Giles in the Fields. They say the marriage did not take place at any of these. Suggest I contact Westminster Archives to check a couple of other churches. Or contact the compilters of Pallot's Index and ask for clarification of the definition of the area of Holborn????? Dont know full history of Pallots, but assume done some time ago.....and have heard some has been destrohey said they searched - whole 1803, St. Andrew Holborn; St. George Bloomsbury, St. George the Martyr, Queen Square, Holborn; St. Giles in the Fields. They say the marriage did not take place at any of these. Suggest I contact Westminster Archives to check a couple of other churches. Or contact the compilters of Pallot's Index and ask for clarification of the definition of the area of Holborn????? Dont know full history of Pallots, but assume done some time ago.....and have heard some has been destrohey said they searched - whole 1803, St. Andrew Holborn; St. George Bloomsbury, St. George the Martyr, Queen Square, Holborn; St. Giles in the Fields. They say the marriage did not take place at any of these. Suggest I contact Westminster Archives to check a couple of other churches. Or contact the compilers of Pallot's Index and ask for clarification of the definition of the area of Holborn????? Dont know full history of Pallots, but assume done some time ago.....and have heard some has been destroyedy said they searched - whole 1803, St. Andrew Holborn; St. George Bloomsbury, St. George the Martyr, Queen Square, Holborn; St. Giles in the Fields. They say the marriage did not take place at any of these. Suggest I contact Westminster Archives to check a couple of other churches. Or contact the compilers of Pallot's Index and ask for clarification of the definition of the area of Holborn????? Dont know full history of Pallots, but assume done some time ago.....and have heard some has been destroyed.
Has anyone any ideas where I might find this marriage info. I am researching my Twyford family. Elizabeth Letitia Garret Kimpton married George Twyford at St. Marylebone in 1824 - I have copy of that marriage. Assume the Kimpton fellow died. Have not found if she had children by the first marriage and have not found her birth. Her death cert in Australia says her Garrett father was a bootmaker in London. Any help would be very gratefully received. Mary T.

[Mythology]

If it's been wrongly stamped, then it's anybody's guess really, but ....

With St Andrew Holborn, being of a suspicious mind, my first thought would be "I wonder what they actually checked". It's an unusual one, in that there are two registers not one - there's one for marriages by banns and a separate one for marriages by licence. Was whoever checked it at the LMA aware of this, or did they go through the first one, think "Oh - it's not there" and move on?

I'd also check other years at St Andrew Holborn, not just 1803 - I've come across one where it was simply a case of the wrong year stamped on it.

[Betty Willson]

Thanks Peter Goodey again. All I wanted to do originally, was write a story about my g. grandparents. I thought I knew a lot about them but 2 or more years later, I now realize, I know very little. I'm not even sure who they actually were. I'll have to think about all this information. Betty Willson

[Betty Willson]

Well Mythology, here I am again after in depth study last night, of the information, you gave about the various churches. On the tape I have at the LDS centre St. Marylebone Parish Church 1813-1837 is listed and Holy Trinity 1828-1837, St. Mary, Bryanston Sq. 1825-1837, Christ Church, Cosway St. 1825-1837 and at least 11 more. After reading that you found 64 results for Smith at St. Marylebone even if it was only up to 1812. How many more should there be 1813-1837, unless all the Smiths migrated. I am sure the tape I have can not have a full list of all marriages. It is long but not that long. I will try for another tape. There could be?? It might be, because the tape I have is only copies of Bishop's transcripts. Best wishes, Betty Willson

[Betty Willson]

Mythology, I though you might be interested in a note I found on the tape at the LDS centre, yesterday. It explains why I have no hope of finding the marriage of my g. g. grandparents on the tape I have. ie. "The following specific references to Sussex in the Marriage Reg. 1813-1837 have been extracted by W.H.Challen of 108 Sackville Rd. Worthing since when the marriage books 1668-1923 and other registers have been deposited at County Hall, Westminster Bridge, London SE1" I've now ordered another tape. I guess it explains why there are so few entries for Marylebonne. I think it means all the people whose records appear on this tape came from Sussex. Robert Nelhams, I believe was born in Surrey. Silly me! Best wishes, Betty Willson

[Mythology]

Hi Betty

I don't know a lot about Challen's Transcript except that, as with your find there, it's listed as one of the many sources of the Pallot's entries. There is a whole typed booklet at the Guildhall Library (I think it probably came from the IHGS, who bought Pallot's from the firm of solicitors who compiled the index) which goes into great detail, with all sorts of odd notes like "retyped in 19xx by Mrs xxxx" and so-on, but I gave up the idea of copying it all out because, like everything else I've found associated with Boyd's, Pallot's etc., etc., I didn't have to go very far through it before I realised that it was wrong - at least one City of London church which very definitely *is* on Pallot's is not listed at all.

Now, you are going to scream ..............

This is so clearly written, not one of those faded pages like Lynn's Henry Robert Rogers one, that I honestly do not think that you could have missed it, so I suspect that the LDS must have somehow given you the wrong film and you were, therefore, looking at the wrong St Mary.

The marriage of Robert Nelhams and Mary Walthew took place on 4 February 1826 at the church where I said it ought to be in the first place - St Mary, Bryanston Square.

I have taken a copy from the film at the LMA (X089/074), will e-mail you tomorrow with full detail, but basically they are bachelor/spinster, so no previous marriage complications, both allegedly living in the district, it's by banns, and the two witnesses are An [sic] Owens and Ann Parry.

[Betty Willson]

Thank you Mythology for the information about my G.G.Grandparents. I've been at the LDS centre today searching the records for St.Mary-le-Bone. Of course I didn't find the record of the wedding, I required, as I was searching the wrong St. Mary as you said. The LDS seem not to have a record of the St. Mary at Bryanston Square as that is the church I expected to have on the new tape today. You have been very kind and no doubt think I am an absolute fool. I'll look out for your e-mail tomorrow. I honestly felt very distressed today as I guessed I had the wrong tape, yet again. I did not doubt that you were correct about Bryanston Square. It just appeared not to be available. Thanks again and best wishes, Betty Willson

[mary t]

If it's been wrongly stamped, then it's anybody's guess really, but ....

With St Andrew Holborn, being of a suspicious mind, my first thought would be "I wonder what they actually checked". It's an unusual one, in that there are two registers not one - there's one for marriages by banns and a separate one for marriages by licence. Was whoever checked it at the LMA aware of this, or did they go through the first one, think "Oh - it's not there" and move on?

I'd also check other years at St Andrew Holborn, not just 1803 - I've come across one where it was simply a case of the wrong year stamped on it.

Thanks for your information...............have just arranged for a London Researcher to do some family research. Gave her this marriage to look up, she advised me that London Met Archives only have a film of the Marriages by Licence for Holborn. The Banns register is held at the Guildhall Library, and she is going to check there for me and obtain a copy of the Marriage. Fortunately I had held off searching other registers when I got your reply. I had been busy with family weddings etc. and have only just got back to my research. Many Thanks. Mary T.

[Mythology]

Fingers crossed. :)

"London Met Archives only have a film of the Marriages by Licence for Holborn."

Well, thanks for that info - that's something I didn't know!
St Andrew Holborn is a bit odd in more ways than one as the parish is partly within the City boundary, partly without, but the actual *church* is within the City boundary, so I always count it as City of London and my natural instinct is, therefore, to use the Guildhall Library rather than the LMA.
The Guildhall Library have the lot - from their nice detailed handbook (I do wish the LMA would sell something similar), the marriages by banns in 1803 are on film 6670/9 and the ones by licence on 6671/8.

However, if I'm at the LMA, don't have any reason to go to the Guildhall Library that day and have a St Andrew Holborn event to check, obviously, I've used their copies to save a bus journey just for one look-up.

It's only between 1754 and 1812 that this situation of two registers occurs, and most of my stuff there has been about 1820 onwards, so I didn't realise that the LMA actually don't have copies of both registers. It's probably the same for the whole of that 1754-1812 period - I'll have to investigate when I'm next there and update my own notes!

[mary t]

Hi Mythology,

My researcher was able to get me a copy of the Kimpton/Garret marriage at the Guildhall Library. So I am very pleased.... Thank you once again for your ideas. Have now found that the Kimpton/Garrett marriage produced 4 children. Their baptisms are on the IGI so that will be my next project. (Need to save up due to the exchange rate). May have to be satisfied with the certificates from these generations......there is nothing on most of marriage certs saying who their parents were, so may not get back much further.

cheers Mary

[Mythology]

Oh good - glad there was a happy ending. :)

Our English records are indeed very poor compared to Australian ones - even from July 1837 onwards, you only get the father of the bride & groom, not the mother. I remember nearly falling off my chair with shock the first time I ordered an Australian marriage cert - birthplace for bride and groom, both parents - we're not used to that over here! :D