PDA

View Full Version : TURNER - Birr



William N Smith
06-08-2013, 6:40 PM
William Henry TURNER was born in 1855 at Birr. By the age of 18 he had come to London and married. He had a cousin, Charles TURNER also born at Birr who subsequently became a Catholic priest in London.

Does anyone have any information about their families?

Wilkes_ml
06-08-2013, 7:58 PM
Hi and welcome! Do you have them in the census? Do you have William Henry Turner's marriage and if so who did he marry and where?

christanel
06-08-2013, 11:09 PM
Could this be him in 1881
RG11 Piece 599 Folio 63 Page 9
23 Blunel Street Lambeth
William H. Turner 26 Carpenter and joiner King's Co Ireland
Alice Turner 25
Alice Turner 5
William Turner 3
Alice and children all born Lambeth Surrey

Umm, maps says Birr is in Co Offaly.

The same bloke in 1871 with his parents. Nothing to say he is your bloke as yet. As Michelle asks, do you have them in any censuses or have anymore info that will identify him? So can we rule this one in or out? :yes: :nonod:

RG10 Piece 667 Folio 4 Page 1
36 Park Street Lambeth
Henry Turner 50 Cellar man Marylebone
Mary Turner 36 County Tipperary ireland
William Turner 16 Carpenter and joiner King's county
John Turner 14 assisting his father King's county
George Turner 12 Tipperary
Charles Turner 9 Lambeth
Henry Turner 3 Lambeth
Mary Ann Turnerb 9 Months Lambeth
Ann Rogers 23 single, wife's sister unemployed servant Tipperary

William N Smith
07-08-2013, 8:23 AM
I have all the information about William once he arrived in England.

In 1873 he married Alice Masters – I have the marriage certificate. They had three children Alice Mary (b.1875), William Henry (b.1878), Alice (my grandmother b.1886).

In 1873 he lived at 11 London Road, Southwark; in 1875 at 12 Aukland Street, Lambeth; in 1881 23 Brunel Street, Lambeth; in 1891 until death in 1944 at Mayes Road Wood Green. I have the census data for 1881 onwards. When I was a child in the 1930s/1940s I regularly visited him and his son and daughter at Mayes Road.

From the above records I know he was born in Birr (Kings County – renamed Offaly). What I am seeking is references to him and his family in Ireland before he came to England.

Thanks for your interest.

christanel
07-08-2013, 10:03 AM
Hello again

So we have the right family which gives some background for anybody able to offer help in finding them in Ireland.
We now know that Henry, father of William was born in Marylebone/London whereas his wife Mary was born in Ireland as were William 1855, John 1857 and George 1859. It is the next child Charles who was born Lambeth c1862 so may we assume that Henry and Mary returned to London between 1859 and 1862.
Was Mary already in London prior to meeting Henry where they met and married then returned to Ireland before the birth of their first child or was Henry in Ireland for some reason and that is where they met and married.
What we do know from the 1871 census is the name of Mary's sister and an approximate birth date and place. So henry married a Mary Rogers.

Now we can start the search. :yes:

And thanks to you I now know that King's County became Offaly.

Christanel

Pamelawagster
07-08-2013, 10:30 AM
Could this be his birth reg?

Name: TURNER, William H
Mother's name: Not available before 1966
Regiment:16th Foot
Place : Birr
Country: Ireland
year: 1854 Volume :
Page: 30
Record source: GRO Regimental Birth Indices (1761 to 1924

christanel
07-08-2013, 10:31 AM
To be definite about William's mother's maiden name buying a birth certificate would help.

Births Jun 1/4 1862
Charles Turner
Lambeth vol 1d page 296

Wow, just seen your post pamelawagster. Great work! So dad was in the army.

William N Smith
07-08-2013, 10:45 AM
Christanel,

The family you have outlined in your message is not the right one for me!

Bill

William N Smith
07-08-2013, 10:48 AM
Pamelawagster.

Very possibly - how do I get access to this?

Bill

christanel
07-08-2013, 10:49 AM
Ok then Bill let's start over.
You have the marriage certificate for William Henry born 1855 Birr. What is William Henry's father name and occupation? Names of witnesses?

Christanel

Pamelawagster
07-08-2013, 10:55 AM
I found the birth on FMP simply typed in his name and approx DOB. There is no other info on the birth reg other than what I sent.

christanel
07-08-2013, 11:01 AM
I think you had better give us the references and details for the 1881 and 1891 censuses you have for William and Alice because I keep coming back to the one I already have.

christanel
07-08-2013, 11:13 AM
This is the 1891 census reference for a Charles Turner, priest age 27 born Ireland. So born 1864.
RG12 Piece 350 Folio 96 Page 47

William N Smith
09-08-2013, 1:54 PM
Christanel,

Below is the info you requested - but it does not help much with the Irish ancestry.

Bill.

William Henry TURNER married Alice MASTERS on 2nd April 1873 at St. Jude's, Southwark, Surrey (now London). The witnesses were Elias & Elizabeth DUNN. Bride & groom were both shown as living at 11 London Road, Southwark. The groom's father is Henry TURNER a Head Cellarman. The groom's age was 19 and the bride 18. They were young to be married. As far as I have been able to trace their first child was born in August 1875 (my grandmother, Alice).

christanel
09-08-2013, 11:43 PM
Could this be him in 1881
RG11 Piece 599 Folio 63 Page 9
23 Blunel Street Lambeth
William H. Turner 26 Carpenter and joiner King's Co Ireland
Alice Turner 25
Alice Turner 5
William Turner 3
Alice and children all born Lambeth Surrey

1871 RG10 Piece 667 Folio 4 Page 1
36 Park Street Lambeth
Henry Turner 50 Cellar man Marylebone
Mary Turner 36 County Tipperary ireland
William Turner 16 Carpenter and joiner King's county
John Turner 14 assisting his father King's county
George Turner 12 Tipperary
Charles Turner 9 Lambeth
Henry Turner 3 Lambeth
Mary Ann Turnerb 9 Months Lambeth
Ann Rogers 23 single, wife's sister unemployed servant Tipperary

Hello Bill

These two census records I gave earlier match the information you have given from Henry and Alice's marriage cert. (by the way what was William's occupation on that?)

(In your post #4 you say " They had three children Alice Mary (b.1875), William Henry (b.1878), Alice (my grandmother b.1886). Then in your latest post you say your grandmother was born 1875. Is it possible the first Alice Mary born 1875 died and they named the next dau born 1886 Alice? It was quite a common practice to give a child the same name as a sibling that had died earlier.) Ignore this in brackets, see next post

One of the other helping on here may come along and tell me if I am on the right track. :yes:

Christanel

christanel
09-08-2013, 11:57 PM
This is the same family in 1891
RG12 Piece 1078 Folio 36 Page 16
Mayes Road 1 Glynfield Villas Tottenham
William H Turner 36 carpenter and joiner
Alice Turner 36
William Turner 13
Anne Turner 5
Alice M Turner 15

So the names of the daughters is sorted. Alice Mary born c1875 (possibly your grandmother) and Anne born 1886.

In your post #4 you say " 1873 he lived at 11 London Road, Southwark; in 1875 at 12 Aukland Street, Lambeth; in 1881 23 Brunel Street, Lambeth; in 1891 until death in 1944 at Mayes Road Wood Green. I have the census data for 1881 onwards. So I have the right family in 1891?

I do think we have found the correct family for your William Henry Turner. His mother was Irish but his father was born in London. William Henry was born in Ireland because his father was in the army there. So you will only be looking for his mother's Irish ancestry, which makes it a little easier. :wink5:

Christanel

William N Smith
10-08-2013, 2:34 PM
Christanel,

First an apology. In post #4 I made a mistake. Where I said..........
“In 1873 he married Alice Masters – I have the marriage certificate. They had three children Alice Mary (b.1875), William Henry (b.1878), Alice (my grandmother b.1886).”
........I should have said
“In 1873 he married Alice Masters – I have the marriage certificate. They had three children Alice Mary (my grandmother b.1875), William Henry (b.1878), Anne ( b.1886).”

1881 RG11 Piece 599 Folio 63 Page 9 IS my great grandparents, my grandmother and her brother and sister.

What is new to me, and for which I thank you, is 1871 RG10 Piece 667 Folio 4 Page 1 36 Park Street Lambeth. This seems to be a perfect fit showing my great grandfather at the age of 16 with his parents and siblings. In my first post I mentioned Charles Turner who became a Catholic priest. I was never sure of his relationship to my great grandfather but now I see that they were possibly brothers because the age fits (Rev Charles James Turner was born 16/01/1862 – I know a great deal about his life as a priest).

You might be interested to know that I have a carpenter’s saw and spirit level both marked with the name “C.Turner” handed down through the family. These may have been among the tools Charles no longer needed when he became a priest. This side of my family have all been Catholic. I suspect William Henry and Alice upset the family when they married in the Church of England.

You asked for the occupation of William on the marriage certificate – it also shows him as a carpenter. His son (my great Uncle Will) William Henry (junior) (b. 1878, died 14/1/52) also a carpenter – I used to visit him in his workshop over 60 years ago at the Charing Cross Station railway hotel in London where he was employed. At the back of my mind I have the thought that his father was there before him also.

I am grateful to you for unlocking some more of the research for me and starting me off again down some further paths.

Bill

christanel
10-08-2013, 10:17 PM
Hello Bill
My husband would be so envious of you having the old tools belonging to Charles. OH collects and restores old carpenter's tools.

I think Charles, the priest, is the brother of William Henry.

Looking at the 1871 census tells us that the family returned to London from Ireland between the birth of George in 1859 and the birth of Charles in 1862. There won't be a record of a sea voyage for them between ireland and England so if they can't be found in the 1861 census in London then it may be presumed they arrived 1861/62.

To help you with Mary's family, it is lucky that her sister was with them in 1871 so Mary's maiden surname was Rogers, born in Tipperary.
You have a little more information than some of us who are struggling with only having Ireland as place of birth and no clue as to maiden names.

Oh and there is a 6 year gap between the birth of Charles and that of Henry. I wonder if there was another child/children who died in infancy? Just a thought.

Good luck with the search and if you get stuck you can always come back here to see if we can help further.

Christanel

William N Smith
11-08-2013, 12:54 PM
Christanel,

Genealogy is so much more interesting when you have more than just names and dates. In the pictures attached there is one of me with my great grandfather, William Henry Turner (senior), taken in about 1934 at Mayes Road. He would then have been a little younger than I am now. The other shows him with his son William Henry (junior) and daughter Anne. He could never have imagined that seventy years after his death instant messages would cross the world talking about him.

Again I am very grateful to you for your help and interest.

Bill



http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/extensions/uploads/8d0bc951-0c1c-4b20-b2d5-ccf94349dd89.jpg

http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/extensions/uploads/aeeb6b8a-4dee-437b-be07-a6328bd6fe9b.jpg

William N Smith
11-08-2013, 12:55 PM
Oops,
the picture is of William Henry TURNER with his wife and daughter
Bill

WoodsmanT
21-08-2021, 3:56 PM
Hi William,
I have only just come to this site so missed being able to reply to all your earlier posts.

William Henry Turner was also my Great Uncle. So we share a Great Grandfather in Henry Turner (b abt 1818 Marlelebone).

I am descended through Willian H Turner younger brother Henry Turner (sometimes George Henry and occasionally just George), who was born 3 June 1867 in Southwark and married Ellen Donoghue. I have a lot of information about the family, including service records.

We actually live very close to each other I live between Sidcup and Swanley.

I am happy to share what I know with you. Perhaps we could meet.

I am not sure how we can contact each other privately.
I sure someone on this site could tell me.

Hopefully you will be able to get this.

Regards

David Turner

christanel
21-08-2021, 7:32 PM
Hi David
to contact William privately just click on his user name and from the drop down menu choose and click on Private Message. These are exactly what they are called, they cannot be accessed by anyone else at all.
Christina

Lesley Robertson
21-08-2021, 7:36 PM
Welcome in, David.
I see that Chris has already explained our messaging system. William hasn’t been in since 2013, but if he is still using the same email address as he registered with, he should get a message from our system to say that you have replied. Good luck!
In the mean time, why not have a look round and see whether there’s anyone else with a connection.

WoodsmanT
22-08-2021, 9:03 AM
Thank you, I will try it.
David

WoodsmanT
22-08-2021, 9:05 AM
Thank you.
I hopefully he is still a member maybe, just not used the site since then.
I will wait and see.
David

Lesley Robertson
22-08-2021, 1:37 PM
If he had stopped his membership, the system would be showing his as "Guest" under his name. It's just a matter of valid email addresses.

WoodsmanT
22-08-2021, 1:45 PM
If he had stopped his membership, the system would be showing his as "Guest" under his name. It's just a matter of valid email addresses.

Thank you Lesley. I have sent him a PM so I wait with hope.

William N Smith
22-08-2021, 3:44 PM
Hello David.

Yes I am still here! I had done little or nothing more with my family history research for some few years now and only ten days ago decided to tidy it up a bit.

I am not sure how this site works. Before I go into any more detail have you seen all the messages I exchanged with various researchers back in 2013? I could give you a lot of information for what is worth about my g g grandfather's descendants but little or nothing going back in time.

Bill

WoodsmanT
22-08-2021, 4:36 PM
Hello David.

Yes I am still here! I had done little or nothing more with my family history research for some few years now and only ten days ago decided to tidy it up a bit.

I am not sure how this site works. Before I go into any more detail have you seen all the messages I exchanged with various researchers back in 2013? I could give you a lot of information for what is worth about my g g grandfather's descendants but little or nothing going back in time.

Bill


Hi Bill

Glad to hear from you.
I have got birth certificate for William Henry Turner B1854, John Turner b1856 George Thomas Turner b1859 and a baptisim record for Charles (James) Turner b1862 all in Ireland.
Can't find as yet one for my Grandfather Henry (possible Geo Henry).
Birth and Death for Mary Ann Turner b1870 d 1879.
Baptizan for Susannah Ann Turner b abt 1873.
all children of Henry Turner and Mary Turner nee Rogers who married in 1853 Birr County Ireland while Henry was serving there in the army. I have a copy of the parish register for this marriage which I got when I went to Ireland to do some research there about 10 years ago.
I also have a service record, or rather a discharge document for Henry. And another army dischage document for William Rogers who is I believe Mary Rogers father who was born in Wales.

Did you get the "private message " that I sent to you?
I am hoping that it worked.

As I said I live near Ruxley Garden Centre so it would be nice to meet and share research.

Hope to hear form you
David Turner

Lesley Robertson
22-08-2021, 5:33 PM
Welcome back, William!
I think that all your earlier messages are available higher up this thread. I can't find any others under your current membership name. If there should be more, I'll need the relevant user name to track them down.
There's no need to repeat any information in the the previous messages, just refer to the number of the message, as shown on the right-hand end of the red bar at the top of that message.
Enjoy!