How can I be sure I have the correct family?

[jules67]

My paternal grandfather was William Thomas Roberts. I know very little about his background and so far i have been unable to identify for sure his birth mother.
Over the last year i have found out a lot about him. Here is what i do know.

He died in Abergele North Wales on Dec 23rd 1931
He married Sarah Kenworthy (my grandmother) in St Asaph in May 1915
He married Alice Kenworthy in Dobcross Yorkshire in August 1905 ( and yes.....they were sisters!!!)

His headstone on the grave says he was 56 at the time of his death, but the dates on various census records and his marriages are not reliable. his age on both marriage records is 40 years old even though they were 10 years apart and on the 1911 census he states his age as 45.

He seems to of been born in Rhyl, Flintshire and his father (as noted on his wedding certificates) was Daniel Roberts, who was a farm labourer.

I do have a family I have placed him with in the Rhyl/Rhuddlan area on the 1881 census and a person i believe could be him working as a farm hand aged 15 in a neighbouring farm in 1891.
The mother of this family is Ann.
I can trace the family in Rhyl on the 1901 and 1911 census, but William Thomas is no longer with them.
I really need to find some link from 1891 to 1905 to confirm My William (post 1905) is connected to this family.

Or...of course.....the age on his gravestone may not be correct, in which case i have no idea of his birthdate!

Anyone able to give me any pointers to fillling in the gaps please?
I have found a William in Heaton Norris working for a Mr Edwin Simpson as a coachman. This man had links with the Rhyl area as he and his family appear to be holidaying in the area on an earlier census....and he later retired to the area. Its a possibility...but im not 100% convinced.

[jules67]

Just realised....should this of gone on the Flintshire forum? Whoops! Please move if i've posted in the wrong place!!

[Mutley]

It's not really posted in the wrong place but Flintshire would probably be a better place.
The removal van is on it's way. :smile5:

[Mutley]

Please can you confirm if this is the family you think William belongs with in 1881?

Living at Penddauglawdd Cottage, Rhuddlan
Daniel Roberts age 47
Ann Roberts age 40
David Edward Roberts age 17
William Thomas Roberts age 5
Anne Roberts age 4
Jane Roberts age 1

RG11/5527 Folio 136, Page 12

[jules67]

Yes...thats them Mutley.
Coincidently......my house is build on land once owned by the same farm!


im using the age and date on his gravestone as my guide to his age and birth date. Other family member seemed to think he was much older! (which is no help at all!!)

[MarkJ]

Do you actually have the death certificate for William - or either of the wedding certificates?
Although they can be a major expense, certificatres help to confirm details and avoid going down the wrong path....
Are you sure the grave headstone relates to the correct chap - not someone with the same name?

If the family Mutley has found are the right ones, then his age fits well with the death and the second marriage.

There is a William T Roberts death which looks promising -

December quarter 1931

St Asaph district

11b 359

Age is given as 57, but remember that the person giving the details may not have known his age. That is one reason to get the certificate - the persom giving the details will be identified and you may be able to work out the likelihood of them knowing.

[jules67]

yes...that him Mark. He died 23rd Dec 1931. Its definately him.....my nain is buried with him in the same cemetery as many other family members including my parents. I have his marriage certificate to Sarah and a copy of the parish entry for his marriage to Alice. I am in the process of getting Williams death certificate.

[MarkJ]

Sounds like you have got the right evidence there Jules :)

So the problem is locating his birth so you can identify his mother. Is the Ann mentioned in the census not his mother? Or did Daniel remarry?

If it is perhaps Ann, then a possible marriage with an Ann and a Daniel Roberts both listed would be -

St Asaph district
June quarter 1862
11b 641

and the Ann is Ann WILLIAMS

Not saying this is them, but just a possibility

[Mutley]

I will admit I am struggling to find much at all. Flintshire baptisms are on FMP and some on Family Search but I cannot find a William with a father named Daniel. I also cannot find a baptism for David Edward. There is quite a gap between David and William.

I keep wondering if they are Ann's children and had a different surname at birth.
Have you found Daniel, Ann and David in 1871?

[Megan Roberts]

I had a very similar problem with my gt gt grandfather Evan Roberts from Caernarfon. I first identified him from an in memorium card, and then his headstone, and death certificate, and each of them differed slightly in terms of age. I then got my gt grandfather's birth certificate which gave his mother's name as Jane Griffith. Go back in time there was, suprisingly, only one marriage that fitted, and the certificate for that showed his father as Llewelyn. For a long time the only birth I could identify for Evan, based on the ages given, showed his father as Robert. Now because this was around the time civil registration was introduced (early-mid 1840s), I thought maybe it was a patrionymic thing (Evan ap Robert becomes Evan Roberts), but that did not really explain Llewelyn.

Then another family researcher got the local registery office to page turn births looking for Llewelyn as the father, and found it, in 1839, so he was actually older than I thought.

The moral here is (a) be prepared to search on a wide band of years (+/- 5 years or if that does not work +/-10 years); and (b) don't assume because its Wales and Welsh names that its a no hoper.

Looking at the 1881 census that Mutley has identified that must have a good chance of being the right one, so if I were you I would concentrate on the births of a William Thomas Roberts 1875/1876, looking for one that has Daniel as the father. If the local registrar can't help then get the GRO to look by not specifying their references, just the years and the name of the father. Although you have to pay up front, if they can't find the match (i.e. Daniel father) then they refund immediately.

[jules67]

Well, nobody in the family seemed to know the names of either of Williams parents. I only discovered his father was Daniel after buying the marriage cert. The problem is William Thomas Roberts is a remarkably common name.....and so is Daniel Roberts!! lol.

I just wish i could find something between 1891 and 1905 to confirm they are infact the same person.....but thats when the ages start to fluctuate......I think he told a few porkies along the way...and not just about his age!

[jules67]

Mutley....no I havent found them in 1871. But its probable David is a son by a previous wife? or maybe Ann,s from a previous husband?

[Mutley]

I am not familar with the Welsh districts but seeing as I am struggling with the sons I thought I would take a look at their father Daniel.
He states born 1836 Henllan, Denbighshire which does not seem that far south of St. Asaph, Rhuddlan and Rhyl.

Would it be likely that there were several Daniel Roberts born there about 1836?

I have found one in 1851 living in Llandyrnog who is the son of Griffith (a farmer) and Harriet.
Living with them is an Uncle David and Daniel has a sister named Anne who is only 9 months old. There is also a servant named Edward Roberts.
HO107/Piece 2505 Folio 209

Perhaps it is worth putting one side until we have found a bit more. The marriage found by Mark would be useful to see.

[Mutley]

If the above is him then this also is possible for Daniel in 1861 in Llandyrnog.
Griffith Roberts age 50 b. Llanganhafal
Harriet Roberts age 46 b. Henllan
Daniel Roberts age 25, son b. Llanganhafal
Catherine Roberts age 6, dau b. Llandyrnog
Joseph Lloyd age 16. Servant
Thomas Williams age 15. Servant
Hannah Jones age 20. Servant
Moses Pierce age 25. Visitor
RG9/4294/16/2

[jules67]

Daniel Roberts was a hugely common name, especially in the Denbigh/Henllan area. They are dozens. most are farm labourers of some sort. Rhyl at that time was a very new town, most of the 'local' Rhyl people (so they say) are decendents from 5 families that settled here from Henllan to work at the brickworks when it first opened. and yes you guessed.....at least one of those families were Roberts.....

[jules67]

Thank you all so much for your help this evening. I do have a family line for Daniel that I have been given by a member on another site. Again....much of it fits but i'm not sure its my family. I shall look it up tomorrow and post.....although to be honest I didnt persue it much.....I need to be certain I have Williams parents correct before i spend too much time going back further. x

[jules67]

Sorry mutley, only just seen your last post. Its not the same line as the one i have, another possiblity!

[Mutley]

Daniel Roberts was a hugely common name, especially in the Denbigh/Henllan area. They are dozens. most are farm labourers of some sort. Rhyl at that time was a very new town, most of the 'local' Rhyl people (so they say) are decendents from 5 families that settled here from Henllan to work at the brickworks when it first opened. and yes you guessed.....at least one of those families were Roberts.....

Oh dear! :smile5: then the backward steps with certificates is the only way to be sure, that is, when you can find them!
Often you have to buy those of family members that are not your direct line, siblings to find a mother for example.

Being as you live in the area, is there a local church that may help you regarding parish records?

[Megan Roberts]

Daniel Roberts was a hugely common name, especially in the Denbigh/Henllan area. They are dozens. most are farm labourers of some sort. .

But the combination of Daniel as father with a son called William or William Thomas was not:
1881 Census
Flintshire - as per Mutley above and no others
Denbighshire - 2 possibles; 1 in Ruabon and 1 in Abergele.

1871 Census
1 example in each of Flintshire and Denbighshire.

[jules67]

I'll have to look into that one Mutley. Once again thanks all for you help....giving up for this evening x

[jules67]

The 1881 one is the one i have....
Id be greatful if u could point me in the direction of the 1871 ones Megan...im struggling! x

[jules67]

Just to throw another spanner in the works folks...another thing to think about. When he married Alice Kenworthy in Dobcross, he is recorded as a widower......so he had been wed before! But was that still at home in Wales.....or elsewhere? x

[Megan Roberts]

1871
Marchweil, Denbighshire - Wrexham district (suspect the place name is an Ancestry mangle, but have not looked at the original)
Daniel, wife Ann, various children including William aged 11, supposedly born Marchweil.
Ref: Piece: 5651; Folio: 195; Page: 9
I doubt that this is your family.

Whitford, Flintshire
The William here is 14, so I think probably far too old to be yours.
Parents Daniel and Mary.
Ref: Piece: 5638; Folio: 35; Page: 1

When you look at all of this again, look at my earlier suggestion about the birth certificate and the search for one where the father is Daniel.

[Mutley]

The 1881 one is the one i have....
Id be greatful if u could point me in the direction of the 1871 ones Megan...im struggling! x

Me too :smile5:

Seeing as David Edward was stated as born St. Asaph I had a look at birth registrations on Free BMD.
Births Registrations in St. Asaph between March 1855 and December 1875
David Edward Davies, Jun 1871
David Edwards WILLIAMS, Jun 1872
David Edward Jones, Sep 1875

If the Williams one is yours, it would also mean that David's birth dates were as wrong as your William's (9 in 1881 not 17). Would also explain why he is not in the 1871 census and sounds like he is the son of Ann. You could apply for the certificate requesting that Ann is the mother and it would not cost you anything if that is not correct.

[jules67]

Thanks again Megan. The only one that seems viable is the Rhuddlan one. To be honest, even if i buy the birth certificate its not going to tell me for sure its my William Thomas! I dearly hope it is.....but like i say, i need to make the connection with this boy to the info i have of him as an adult and i dont know how on earth i can do that xx

[jules67]

I have just found a William Roberts aged 27 on the census of 1901...still living in Rhyl. Its literally around the corner from his parents home. Says hes a bricklayer(?) Married to Mary with a son called Thomas?
guess I'm looking for another marriage! lol

its possible......

[Mutley]

Also if you do think the 1881 we found is your William then it is worth looking at his siblings. There are possible registrations for the younger daughters and if they are yours then they will tell you Ann's maiden name and any previous married names she had.
Births Dec 1876 Anne Roberts at St. Asaph
Births Mar 1880 Jane Roberts at St. Asaph

Good Luck with the marriage search - I must off to bed, let us know how you get on.

[jules67]

ah...yes Mutley....thanks again Nite x

[jules67]

I seem to of eliminated William, Mary and Thomas....they still seem to be in Rhyl in 1911, and I know for certain my William is in Abergle then.

[pippycat]

Ive also been looking for your William Thomas Roberts - not a great deal of choice out there with a father Daniel.

You'd like something definite, but unfortunately your not going to get any more than the records show.

The known facts:

William died Abergele 1931 - age 56
He was a widower when he married Alice Kenworthy in 1905 - age 40
He married Sarah Kenworthy 1915 - age 40
His father: Daniel, a farm labourer.

As William cannot have been age 40 for both marriages I imagine he took 10 years off his age when he wed Sarah Kenworthy. After that William had no choice but to stick with the lie.
The headstone would only reflect the death information - hence age 56.


Its probably nearer the truth William was born c1865 and really age 66 at death.
- I think as it was his 3rd marriage and he's 30 years older than his wife (for that era he is 'getting on a bit') so of course he took 10 years off his age, he was old enough to be Sarah's father!!

Your Ancestry tree shows Daniel married to Ann Williams - I assume thats come from "Daniel and Ann" on the census plus the St Asaph 1862 marriage entry?

It might well be the correct couple, but until you find a birth record for William its only guesswork - its not safe to do that with a Roberts in Wales!

I notice William and Sarah's son is a Daniel, wonder if they named their daughter Clara May after a family member too?


Have you looked at Denbighshire County Council website?
Under their 'Archive Service' you can eventually arrive at a list of personal names where its shows snippets of info - thats to assist you find records in their archives, but you may spot something there that jumps out at you!

This is the type of thing it shows:

There are only 2 Daniels listed under the Roberts surname:
Daniel Roberts, Griffin Inn 1920, 1934.
Daniel Roberts, Wrexham Regis, labourer, 1783.

Under Roberts:
Anne (formerly Jones) Henllan, 1781

Under Roberts (otherwise Wright)
Anne, Ruthin, Widow. 1790, 1803

Have a look, there are lots of Roberts and Williams, you never know!

Rebecca

[jules67]

ive looked for William in 1866 ish too.....but found nowt that works. what do u mean rebecca about making a list of names off denbighshire site? what site do u mean please? x

[jules67]

most of the rhuddlan area eas flintshire back
then. x

[pippycat]

The website is: Denbighshire County Council (just google it)

From their homepage select "Leisure and Libraries"
from there select "Archive Service"
then, on the left, you will see "Indexes - Personal Names"
Click on that and you can use the Name Index to search for Roberts (or whoever)

Its Archives for Denbighshire, which means they have documents from all over the county, including Flintshire.


As I said, it only shows little bits of info, but enough to help decide if it might relate to the person your searching for.

Jules I did mean to add to my previous post (but forgot) that William's age being incorrect on his marriage to Alice Kenworthy in 1905 - meant to be 30 yrs old, written as 40 instead - was maybe just an error, it happens!

There are a number of William Roberts births in St Asaph 1865, but not one for William Thomas Roberts
....although there is a William Thomas Roberts Holywell Dec 1865.
While William is pretty constant with being born in Rhyl you never know, his birth might just have been 'registered' in Holywell.

Have you searched your local Record Office for a birth for William? With all the discrepancies, probably be worth your while if you can.

Rebecca

[jules67]

Thanx Rebecca for your help. I have to be honest ...ive no idea where to start as far as going to the records office is concerned. theres so many questions i just cant get my head around what it is id need to look at. Thats my problem. Its just too big a job for me really. People suggest this and that. Ive looked online for records, births, deaths marriages for a year. Anyone that helps always comes back to the same family i have ...... but still i dont really have anything at all to connect what im certain of (william after 1905) with William as a child. Ive been told that the birth records are kept here in Rhyl, but i have so many avenues and i just cant get my head around what id do when i got there!!! In my mind......this family just dont 'feel' right.....dont know why.....but they dont feel like mine!!

Also Rebecca...the Holywell William Thomas Roberts was the very 1st one i found, its a family on Flint mountain that seemed to have dozens of children.....but thats not my lot for sure! lol x

[Megan Roberts]

Jules
Where was he living on the 1911 Census, and where does that say he was born?


and on the 1911 census he states his age as 45.

.

Megan

[Megan Roberts]

Jules,

I have been thinking a little more about your problem and set out my thoughts below, which I hope assist you.

Your question throughout has been “how can you be definitively certain that you have the right birth certificate, and so the right family?” The answer is that no one can be absolutely 100% certain; you only have to watch certain TV shows where people come on saying I’ve been brought up with Fred as my father and now they tell no it was Bob, to know that. But what all family historians do is gather together all the available information and try to connect each piece with another. Your problem is really compounded by the fact that you cannot trace him, with certainty, to any census other than the 1911 census.

You seem reasonably sure that he originally came from the Rhyl/Rhuddlan area. I have done a little digging to try and work out which Civil Registration Districts they would come under. Over the course of time with various local govt. and county reorganisations they have changed quite a lot, but I think that both places in the mid-1800s came under St. Asaph, Denbighshire district. See GENUKI - http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/FLN/RegDistricts/index.html#RegAsaph

Looking at the GENUKI pages, Rhyl did not exist separately until 1844, and was creating by taking part of Rhuddlan. See http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/FLN/Rhuddlan/index.html
This has some useful hints about where to find records etc.

I did a search on the birth index for a William Thomas Roberts born in Flintshire and Denbighshire between 1865 - 1875. These are the results:

1. Denbighshire, Wrexham 1868
2. Denbighshire, Ruthin 1869
3. Denbighshire, Ruthin 1869
4. Denbighshire, Wrexham 1870
5. Denbighshire, St. Asaph 1871 Qtr Oct Vol 11B Page 333
6. Denbighshire, Llanwrst 1871
7. Denbighshire, St. Asaph 1871 Qtr Apr Vol 11B Page 397
8. Denbighshire, Wrexham 1873
9. Denbighshire, Wrexham 1874
10. Flintshire, Holywell 1865
11. Flintshire, Holywell 1873
12. Flintshire, Holywell 1874

As you can see there are actually only 2 such births registered in the St. Asaph district.

I would recommend that you approach the registry office, in Rhyl (at least I think thats where they hold the records) and ask them to look at those 2 births and tell you whether either showed Daniel listed as father. If the answer is yes, I would invest in the certificate, and then see if you can work forward from that certificate to connect to the marriage certificate that you have from 1905.

Another piece of anecdotal corroboration is the fact that he and Sarah moved to North Wales and married in the St. Asaph registration district in 1915. A sudden thought has just occurred to me. If you do not have that certificate I would purchase it for (a) the address he was married from and (b) the names of witnesses, as there might be some clues to be had there.

Megan

[jules67]

Hi folks.
Been doing a lot of searching over the last few days with the help of a few lovely new pals on here....many many thanx to those who are jollying me along!
Not really found anything knew but been printing out what i have and getting my bits in order.
I am still no nearing to knowing for sure if the family I have is mine, but I have quite a bit on them now.
Many names are repeated over and over....I know that is perfectly common, but I guess it something to keep looking for as I search back.
Daniel
David
Clara
Jane
Thomas
William
Annie
constantly popping up. All of them common names at the time.
I know i dont know for sure Ann is my Williams mother, but I think I'm gonna have a root around for her and see if i can fiind any clues with the names of her family. x

[pippycat]

I've gathered together the info so far on William Roberts, Im hoping someone will please take a look and see if they agree the evidence is pointing towards Daniel and Ann being his parents.

Daniel and Ann Roberts children:
David Edward 1864 St Asaph
William Thomas 1876 Rhyl
Ann 1877 Rhyl
Jane 1880 Rhyl
Margaret 1883 Rhyl
Elizabeth 1886 Rhyl

Daniel and Ann census:
1871: unsure
1881: 5527 f136 p12 - Penddauglawdd Cottage, Rhuddlan
1891: 4626 f143 p28 - 212 Vale Rd, Rhyl

1901: 5236 f167 p13 - 212 Vale Rd, Rhyl
Daniel and Annie with their 2 daughters Annie 1877 and Fanny 1880 (was Jane?)
plus 3 Roberts grand.daughters all born Rhyl:
Maggie 1886 / Mary Maud 1898 / Clara Elizabeth age 6 months.


I think the above Clara is the daughter of their son David:-

1911: 5 William St, Rhyl (easy to find via Fanny 1907 Flintshire)

David Roberts 1865 St Asaph. Bricksetter.
wife: Mary 1866 Denbigh
son: William 1898 Rhyl
dau: Fanny May 1907 Rhyl
dau: Clare/Clara 1901 Rhyl
son: Edwin George 1902 Rhyl
Lodger: Ann Roberts 1877 Rhyl
Boarder: Elizabeth Ellen Crankshaw 1876

The lodger Ann is probably David's sister.



William Roberts:
1881 with his parents.
1891 couple of possibles that could be him.

1901 England census: 3288 f136 p8 - 23 Mauldeth Rd, Heaton Norris, Lancs

Edwin George Simpson 1850 Surrey. Trimming/fancy goods Mnfr.
wife Jane 1848 Manchester (plus a son and a daughter)
3 servants including:
Elizabeth Roberts 1883 Rhyl. Domestic Maid
William Roberts 1878 Rhyl. Coachman.

I think this is William and his sister Elizabeth.
(Edwin Simpson was in Rhyl area in 1891 and 1911)


William in 1911: 7 Jenkin St. Rhyl

William 1866 Rhyl. Gen Lab.
wife Sarah: 1890 Delph, Yorks (they wed 1915)
son: Daniel 1908 Abergele
dau: Clara May 1910 Abergele

My assumptions are:
William and his sister Elizabeth together in Lancs 1901
...William married in Yorkshire 1905 (not far from Lancs border) and his occupation on marriage was a Groom (Coachman and Groom = horses, which Jules says William was known for)

His brother David has their sister Ann lodging with him in 1911.
David's daughter Clara is with her grandparents, Daniel and Annie in 1901.

William has son Daniel and daughter Clara May
David has daughters Clara Elizabeth and Fanny May
- their sister is named Fanny May.


David has a son Edwin George b1902 which may/may not have a connection to Edwin George Simpson who was the employer of William and Elizabeth in 1901.
Edwin's wife Jane was born 1848 Manchester, but its not looking good for her being nee Roberts.
Maybe 'Edwin George' is a name from David's wife side of the family.

What do others think, does any of this seem plausible?

Rebecca

Rebecca

[jules67]

Thanks for posting that Rebecca. Its exactly what i have so far and you have backed up my own thoughts on the matter. Its Obvious this is all the same family, but whether thay prove to be mine remains to to seen.
Ann (daniel's wife) say on census she was born in Chester.
I found this last night

Christening date for Ann Williams
7th No 1841 at St Osbalds Chester
Parents William and Elizabeth Williams
Williams occ. Waterman.
possibly my Ann?

Then I have been able to follow them through the cesus in Chester in 1851 and 1861.
Then in 1871 she should be married to Daniel by then. I have found a couple of possibilities in Holywell, but on following them through, I dont believe them to be my Daniel and Ann.

Daniel has always stated his birthplace as Henllan Denbighshire and these Daniels dont fit the bill.

[jules67]

Ive been having another mooch around and im beginning to have more doubts. There are a suprising number of William Roberts in Rhyl around about the right age in 1901. On is living on Vale road...the same street as his parents and is a bricklayer....like his older brother.
I know those of you who are far more experienced at this than I keep telling me its seems very likely I have my family match.......but I still dont feel I have. I have found so many possibilities.......but still can't really make that connection between My William (after 1905) to the William I have before. Just been on Familysearch with links to FMP and its thrown up lost of links i hadnt previously seen.
I cant put this down as solved yet. Once again, thank you so much for all yr help, especially Pippycat......but im gonna have to keep digging. Will be a shame now if this branch of the Roberts clan are not mine.....ive gotten quite fond of them!!!

[Mutley]

We know that William was married before his August 1905 marriage to Alice but do not know where or when.
We do know his father was a Daniel.

Finding this marriage is crucial to being sure you have the correct family.

I suggest you let the GRO do the work for you. You can fill in the form online and they will search two years either side of the date you give them for a marriage of a William Thomas Roberts with a father Daniel. If they cannot find one, your money is refunded.
Maybe start with 1902 then try again moving your years to 1898 and then try again with the year of 1894.
(I hope I have my sums right :smile5:)

It takes time to wait for the replies but otherwise all the searching online is not going to give you the proof you need. That marriage may just lead you to the 1901 census without it, you will never be sure.

[jules67]

Thanks Mutley. so I just go to GRO website?

[jules67]

Sorry for being totally think.....what is it im looking for to request they do the work for me?

[malcolm99]

His headstone on the grave says he was 56 at the time of his death, but the dates on various census records and his marriages are not reliable. his age on both marriage records is 40 years old even though they were 10 years apart and on the 1911 census he states his age as 45.

Has anyone got the 1911 Census ref please?

[jac65]

I suggest you let the GRO do the work for you. You can fill in the form online and they will search two years either side of the date you give them for a marriage of a William Thomas Roberts with a father Daniel. If they cannot find one, your money is refunded.
Maybe start with 1902 then try again moving your years to 1898 and then try again with the year of 1894.
(I hope I have my sums right :smile5:)
.

In order to apply for a marriage certificate this way you need to know the Pace of Marriage, looking at the form it appears to be the only compulsory field apart from year of marriage

Andy

[jules67]

Malcolm.....I have the census record ......where do i find the ref to give you?is it that huge long number ??

[malcolm99]

Malcolm.....I have the census record ......where do i find the ref to give you?is it that huge long number ??

Just bits of it - all I need are the RG, PN and SN numbers

[Mutley]

In order to apply for a marriage certificate this way you need to know the Pace of Marriage, looking at the form it appears to be the only compulsory field apart from year of marriage

Andy

I thought seeing as Jules does not feel able to visit her local records office or follow the parish records route (as advised in her other thread), she would start with Flintshire. There are only a few in the time frame.

Family research by computer alone is a long haul of elimination and it is the only avenue of advice I have left to offer. :sad:

[jules67]

I do plan on going to the records office Mutley. Im not ignoring advice....but I do work full time and they close early!
I dont want to upset anyone. I thank you all again for your help. Sorry if my inexperience has got peoples backs up.

[Mutley]

I do plan on going to the records office Mutley. Im not ignoring advice....but I do work full time and they close early!
I dont want to upset anyone. I thank you all again for your help. Sorry if my inexperience has got peoples backs up.

You have not upset anyone as far as I know Jules. We all love to help, sadly in a case like yours, there is only so much we can do to help you online.
I cannot even find my own grandfather, he was also Welsh but I know nothing about him prior to his 1920 marriage where he states his father was John Davies. I have a whacking great file of every John Davies in Wales but it is no help without knowing a bit more.

Malcolm has asked you about the 1911 census and I now realise that I have not found your William there. If you do not know the reference to give us, can you tell us exactly what it says.
The name as transcribed and the site you found it on.
The birth year and place as transcribed.
The address given.

We may spot a clue your inexperience has missed. :smile5:

[jac65]

Hi

William was living in Abergele in the 1911 census wife wife Sarah (whom he didn't marry until 1915) and children Daniel 3 and Clara May 1

1911 reference RG14; Piece: 34142; Schedule Number: 145

Andy

[jules67]

the number on the census i have is ( in going to put it all because i dont know what else to do)

RG14PN34242 RG78PN1972 RD623 SD2 ED2 SN145
7 jenkin street abergele denbighshire.
Roberts Wiliam age 45 general labourer born flintshire rhyl

this is 100% defintely my grandfather. it says he and sarah are married but they dont actually marry until 1915. at this time he was still married to sarahs sister alice kenworthy whom he married in 1905.

[geneius]

Interesting that you should mention the inhabitants of an area came form 4/5 family surnames. I spend a lot of time in a village on the Lleyn Peninsular and I have heard the same comment past there! Maybe it is a Welsh saying

Is this your William ROBERTS

1901 RG13 3516 179 14
Prescot Union Workhouse and Nurses Home
ROBERTS William 25 Inmate Lab'r Ryee Denbighshire

[geneius]

On the 1901 census RG13 5236 167 3, with Daniel & Ann ROBERTS in addittion to their own daughters, there are 3 granddaughters.

On the information found, these can only be either David Edward's or William Thomas's daughters.

Maggie b 1886 Rhyl
Mary Maud b 1897 Rhyl
Clara E 1901 Rhyl

Have you checked any of them out?

Jane ROBERTS = Fanny on the census

[Jellylegs]

On the 1901 census RG13 5236 167 3, with Daniel & Ann ROBERTS in addittion to their own daughters, there are 3 granddaughters.

On the information found, these can only be either David Edward's or William Thomas's daughters.

Maggie b 1886 Rhyl
Mary Maud b 1897 Rhyl
Clara E 1901 Rhyl

Have you checked any of them out?

Jane ROBERTS = Fanny on the census

Mary Maud was born 29 Aug 1897 and baptised 19 Sep 1897. Her mother is given as Jane and the address is 212 Vale Road. No father is listed. Details from FMP.

In 1901 I think Jane is transcribed on FMP as Jenny (though the original looks to me like Fanny).

In 1881 there is a Jane, daughter of Daniel and Ann with the same birth year - 1880.

[pippycat]

Genius

Have a look at thread 38 - in 1901 we had placed William and his sister Elizabeth as working for Edwin George Simpson in Heaton Norris, Lancs.

Clara E is daughter of David Edward, but don't know anything about the other 2 granddaughters.

....although I did wonder about Mary Maud 1897. I was toying with the idea that she might have been William's daughter from his first marriage (of which nothing is known)...but thats as far as I got!

Rebecca

I see I've crossed paths with Jellylegs!

212 Vale Road is where Daniel and Ann are living in 1891 and 1901.

[jac65]

Hi

The 1905 marriage image is on Familysearch.org and it says that William Thomas Roberts was 40, widowed and his occupation was Groom. His father Daniel Roberts was a carpenter. Alice Kenworthy was 28. I had a quick look at the 1901 census for both England & Wales but couldn't spot a William or Daniel with similar occupations.

I also had a look for a likely death for Alice and the best one I found was an Alice Roberts age 38 in the Sept Quarter 1911 in the Saddleworth Reg District. If this is Alice then she died after the 1911 census when William was back in Wales with Sarah.

Andy

[jules67]

Thannk you again everyone who has commented. I have all that info already and looked at all those possibilities. Its without doubt they are all the same family and the grandaughters living with grandparents link it all together...
BUT...still none of it links the William Thomas from this family to My William Thomas.

If it wasnt for the fact his headstone states his age as 56 in 1931, my William, if the age is right on 1911 census and he was 45, and he was 40 in 1905 when he married Alice....then my William was born 10 years before this William!
It seems much more likely he would of lied about his age when he married Sarah as he was so much older. She was only 25 when they married. if he was 40 when he married Alice he would of been 50 marrying Sarah!

Andy. There is a William Roberts in Heaton Norris, born Rhyl working for Edwin G Simpson on 1901 census working as a coachman.....this occupation would fit. Also an 18 year old girl called Elizabeth is working there, born Rhyl.....Williams sister?

Geneius...I have the William in the workhouse on my maybe list too. x

[malcolm99]

It seems much more likely he would of lied about his age when he married Sarah as he was so much older. She was only 25 when they married. if he was 40 when he married Alice he would of been 50 marrying Sarah!


But what I've never understood is why he would lie about his age. If Alice & Sarah were sisters it's pretty certain each of them would know his approximate age from when whichever one first met him. There'd be no point in lying about his age when they both knew what it was.

[jules67]

I dont understand it either...but he has lied somewhere down the line. Why would he say he was 10 years older than he was when he married Alice?
I feel It makes more sense that he would fib to appear younger than his 50 years and say he was 40 when he married 25 yr old Sarah than it does to of added 10 years to his age claiming to be 40 if he were only really 30 when he married 28 year old Alice??

[malcolm99]

I dont understand it either...but he has lied somewhere down the line. Why would he say he was 10 years older than he was when he married Alice?

What I still don't understand is to whom is he trying to appear younger if Alice and Sarah already know his age? He was obviously already known to other members of the family and I find it hard to imagine who else might ever want to see the register entry or marriage certificate.

I'm still a bit agnostic on all this and I tend to agree with whoever it was who pointed out much earlier in the thread, that it's just as likely, and I would say more likely, to be a clerical error - but I think I'm in a minority:smile5:

[jules67]

You are not in the minority Malcolm.....It seems its me who is!! lol. I think I must have a completely different logic to everyone else!

Most peeps are telling me to ignore my hunch and take his age on the marriage to Sarah as correct and then he ties in with the match family.
But...the date on the marriage to Sarah could be the error and he might not be anything to do with the match family!

If William grew up in North Wales, moved to Yorkshire and met and married Alice, whatever age he told her he was is all she would know.
When William ran away with her baby sister only months later, I feel its highly unlikely that William and Sarah had many dealings with her family....she couldnt of been more than 15 at the time and William was legally punished for desertion. When Alice is back with her parents in 1911, she is still Roberts and still married!
I just feel that as a young woman of 25, Sarah might of felt it slightly more acceptable to pass her ole man off as 40 rather than 50.......even 15 years is a huge age gap!
That scenario just makes more sense to me.

[geneius]

I think you need to get the marriage certificate or check the entry for the 1905 marriage I have found 3 conflicting entry's on familysearch.

One suggests that William was single.....

[jules67]

3? I have found two. one says single and one widowed I have seen both those but not a third. They both say 40 thought.
And at 40, im quite sure he would of been wed before......again, I dont know for sure.

[jules67]

I have found the three now thanks. I was told it would of been registered in both his and hers parish records. :-)
x

[Mutley]

On the 1911 census William and Sarah have three children with them, the surname being Swaine.
The two girls are listed as visitors and the young lad as 'son', I wonder whose son he was?

Phyllis born St Asaph 1900 (I believe she was born 1901 and died St. Asaph age 19)
Edith born London 1901 and Harry born London 1908.

Do you have any idea who these children might be?

[jules67]

I have only found what you have found Mutley.....found a death record for Phyllis but nothing more.
I have a print out of the census, but the boy is not listed as a son on it. the eldest girls says visitor and the other two children have dittos under it.

I have even looked for William in London on the back of that...but to no avail!! lol

[Mutley]

The North Wales BMD site lists an index for birth, marriages and deaths.
There is a 1901 registration for a Phyllis Annie registered in Abergele. While many other births list the mother's maiden name, this one does not. :frown5:

[Mutley]

I have only found what you have found Mutley.....found a death record for Phyllis but nothing more.
I have a print out of the census, but the boy is not listed as a son on it. the eldest girls says visitor and the other two children have dittos under it.

I have even looked for William in London on the back of that...but to no avail!! lol

Sorry, son is on the transcription but you are quite right, not on the original, it has dittos.
I would still be very interested in these children seeing as you cannot find William before his marriages.

There is a registration for the birth of Phyllis in the Sept quarter of 1901 on Free BMD.

[jules67]

Yes. I have had a good mooch around for them. I do feel they might prove to be a link to those missing years. Ive been looking at Sarahs family to see if the name Swaine comes up, but I havent found anything so far x


(sorry all......this post didnt show after id done it....so appologies Ive put some of it twice!)

[jules67]

oooh...my last post disappeared!!
I have looked for them. I have even looked at Sarahs family to see if the name pops up but as yet I havent found anything. But the fact Phyllis was born in St George points at a link to William not Sarah. They could well hold a clue to the missing years!

[jac65]

I think you need to get the marriage certificate or check the entry for the 1905 marriage I have found 3 conflicting entry's on familysearch.

One suggests that William was single.....

One of the Familysearch entries has the image of the Parish Register copy of the marriage, this clearly shows he was a widower, it also includes original signitures of both bride & groom, and also the witnesses. This is the churches copy of the marriage and would/should be identicle to the Local Register Office copy. I don't know what the other two entries are, you would need to access the films to find out for certain. Whilst Banns can be read in both the bride and grooms parishes the marriage itself should only be recorded where it took place.

Andy

[geneius]

The record, you will note there is no image and it is a day out!
William Thomas Roberts
Date: 13 Aug 1905
event place: Friarmere, Delph, Yorkshire, England
marital status: Single
spouse: Alice Kenworthy
spouse's marital status: Single
film number: 2356154
digital folder number: 004497188
image number: 00010

[jules67]

there is an image from the parish church, Dobcross. i have it in front of me. x

[geneius]

You will need to look at the film with the image on to establish what happened on 13 Aug 1905 at Friarmead Delph

SWAINE Children

George Herbert SWAINE married Annie Ethel E SWAYNE June 1901 St Asaph ( Freebmd)

George Herbert was born 1883 Llanefydd, Denbighshire the son of William & Annie RG13 5237 6 3
Annie Edith E was b 1878 Hoo Kent in 1901 the family can be found in Abergele RG13 5238 18: 28.

[jac65]

Hi

FreeBMD doesn't actually say who married whom but NorthwalesBMD does

Annie Ethel E Swayne married Arthur Craister Nicholson at St Michael, Abergele
George Herbert Swaine married Elizabeth Hughes also at St Michael, Abergele

http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/

Interestingly there is a Civil Marriage at St Asaph in 1896 between a William Thomas Roberts and an Elizabeth Hughes. It could be a pure coincidence given how common the name Elizabeth Hughes was

Andy

[geneius]

OOPs I jumped the wrong way :mad5:...children had the names Annie & Edith which was why I opted...then I found that Annie EE SWAYNE was the daughter of an emminent Prof & surgeon...:detective:Gamekeeper marrie duaghter of Surgeon overtones of Lady Cahtterley's Lover!!!! :reddevil:

[jules67]

Hi everyone. Its a long while since I have been here, but I just wanted to update those of you that were good enough to help me with this search.Last summer my local newspaper released archives from 1818 to 1919 and a quick search came up with 4 news stories about William Thomas Roberts between 1895 and 1905. They gave his age, his address ( where the family were on census) and....the clincher...named his employer as Edwin Simpson....who had businesses and homes in Rhyl and Stockport thus tying together the information I had on him and his family. I have now gone back two more generations and have found baptism records for most family members. The GRO have done searches for me to find William Thomas' s birth record....but they too have been unable to find one. I have located Daniel and Annes grave...although its unmarked im happy to know where it is....and its just a 3 minute walk from my home. Thank you again for your help...especially Pippycat for encoraging me to keep at it when the going got tough. Happy New year to you all. Regards...Jules x

[Ladkyis]

Oh we do like to hear an update! We really like an update with good news. Thank you for taking the time to tell us your exciting news.

Happy hunting!

[janbooth]

Just come across this post and I may be giving you information that you already know, but Ancestry has the actual marriage record of William Thomas & Alice in 1905, details given below:

14 August 1905 at Dobcross Parish Church William Thomas ROBERTS, 40, Widower, Groom, Hollins View Marsland, father Daniel ROBERTS, Carpenter & Alice KENWORTHY, 28, spinster, Well Brow Delph, father Edward KENWORTHY, Butcher. Both signed and witnesses were Grant KENWORTHY & Amelia SHARP.

If the details on this record are correct, it means that William Thomas must have been married prior to his marriage to Alice and that his father Daniel may have been shown as a Carpenter on earlier census records.

Janet

[janbooth]

Oops, I think I have cross posted with information you already have - so please ignore the above info.

Janet

[pippycat]

Jules

Its excellent news to know you've managed to find more info and get back further in time.

(I always did wonder if it really was William and his sister Elizabeth working for Edwin Simpson in 1901, seems it was)

Your persistence has paid off Jules - good girl, keep going :biggrin:

Rebecca

[jules67]

I have that info..thank you. I have a copy of parish records with same info....except hes down as a batcholer. I know for certain he was single in 1901.There is no continuity with his age on census records. But I am mow pretty certain his age at death is correct meaning he was nearer 30 when he married Alice...not 40. My personal theory is.....his 1st language was welsh. He had a speech impediment and was just possibly hard to understand. The speech thing is a guess......but there is a number of men in our family with it....so its a hunch x