Execution Records

[Gypsyrose51]

For a number of years I've been researching a double execution in my family history. John Robert Miller(1871) and John Miller(1840 ish). They were Uncle and Nephew of Cullercoats in Northumberland. I'm trying to find any court records of the trial etc. Its been so hard to search their family tree as different newspaper accounts give different details. Any advice would be gratefully received. Thankyou

[Neil Wilson]

Have you tried the record office for Northumberland?

http://www.northumberland.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=1665

[Gypsyrose51]

Thanks for your reply. My husband and I went to Northumberland Archives at Woodhorn and they didn't have anything. Many years before that I went to Newcastle Archives in the Library, as they were hanged on Dec 7th 1907 at Newcastle Upon Tyne, but nothing again.

[Jan1954]

Thanks for your reply. My husband and I went to Northumberland Archives at Woodhorn and they didn't have anything. Many years before that I went to Newcastle Archives in the Library, as they were hanged on Dec 7th 1907 at Newcastle Upon Tyne, but nothing again.I have the details of the murder case and trial in a book that I own: The Encyclopaedia of Executions in the 20th Century. However, it has the date of their executions as being 1901. It is getting rather late this evening to do anything, but if you could PM me your email address, I will send you the details that I have tomorrow.

[Coromandel]

North-Eastern Circuit assize records are at the National Archives, Kew. Unfortunately the records for the period you want seem not to have survived, as you can see from the following quotes from the online catalogue:

Crown and civil minute books (in ASSI 41):
'No minute books, crown or civil, of the North-Eastern circuit survive for the years 1890 to 1920, because these records were erroneously destroyed by the clerk of the assize during the Second World War.'

Indictment files (in ASSI 44)
'The indictment files of the 1891-1923 period were destroyed erroneously by the clerk of the circuit during the Second World War.'

Depositions (in ASSI 45):
'With the exception of one piece of 1906 depositions from 1891 to 1923 have not survived.'

The only little ray of hope is that there is a reference to the case in HO 144 ('Home Office: Registered Papers, Supplementary'):

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C7176267

I cannot tell from the catalogue what this document is. It is apparently dated 15.10.01.

[Mutley]

Going at it from another direction....

John Ellis was an executioner, he started his job on May 8th, 1901.
His first execution was at Newcastle on the 7th of December 1901, helping William Billington at the hanging of John Miller. They hanged Joseph Miller and his nephew, John Robert Miller, for the murder of Joseph Ferguson in Northumberland.

This information needs to be verified as the date and name of the uncle are different to that given by you. It may be easier to confirm the details by looking at the biographies of the executioners. There are quite a lot of sites to found on google which may help.

[Megan Roberts]

I am not certain that court records would give you any more information about their families than that which can be gleaned from the newspaper accounts.

I have had a look at a few and they all seem pretty consistent in saying that John Miller aged 67 (born about 1834) was the uncle of John Robert Miller aged 37 (born about 1864). Further that Joseph Ferguson (the victim) was the step father of John Miller aged 67.

Looking in the marriage records the only (that I can see) marriage record between a Joseph Ferguson and a Ms Miller is:

1898 Tynemouth Qtr Apr Vol 10b 534 - bride Mary Miller.

I had a quick look for Joseph and Mary Ferguson in the 1901 Census but could not see them. However, as they all seem to be connected with travelling shows its possible that they "missed" the census.

I think that I would start by buying the marriage certificate and seeing what clues that holds.

[Jan1954]

I wonder if any extra information could be gleaned from the death certificates:

Both are registered in Newcastle upon Tyne district in December 1901, volume 10b, page 93 as John MILLER aged 67 and John Robert MILLER aged 31.

John MILLER was the son of Mary FERGUSON by her first husband, who had since died. She had subsequently married Joseph FERGUSON, who was therefore John’s step-father. The other MILLER, John Robert, was a nephew of John MILLER.

The murder happened on Friday 20th September 1901, when Joseph FERGUSON was stabbed six times about the head and face. His death was registered in the December quarter of 1901 in Tynemouth registration district, volume 10b, page 139 with the age of 65 being recorded. I wonder who registered this and if there are any further clues therein?

John Robert pleaded insanity at the trial, saying that he had been kicked in the head by a horse when he was a child and had suffered from headaches ever since. This didn’t wash with the judge (Mr Justice Grantham) and so both he and John were sentenced to death.

John was hanged at 8:00am and John Robert at 9:30am.

[Gypsyrose51]

This is what I mean about newsparers and books, getting data wrong. I have the death certificates of both the hanged men, John Miller aged 67 and John Robert Miller aged 31. The did murder Joseph Ferguson in 1901, who married Mary Miller in 1898. Her maiden name was given as Viney. She was the stepmother of elder Miller and Grandmother of the younger. trying to go back from there accurately has been a nightmare. On every census, Mary Miller gave a different age. I sent for the younger Millers birth certiciate and found his father was James Miller, so he has to be the elder John Millers brother, so I looked for Miller familys with a mother Mary and at least two sons John and James. I found one with a father John, who died in c1896. Can't find and accurate birth for Mary Viney. Found one in York with a father John Viney. Thats as far as I've got. Thanks for your help.

[Megan Roberts]

If John Robert Miller was 31 when executed at the end of 1901, then he was born in 1870. There are 2 John Robert Miller births registered in 1870. One in Islington, London and one in Newcastle upon Tyne. At a guess the latter would seem more likely.

Qtr Jul 1870 Vol 10B Page 57

Working on that assumption you can find him with his parents (James and Mary) and brother James R born 1869 in the 1871 census living at Front Street, Cullercoats, Tynemouth. Refs: Piece: 5122 Folio: 8 Page: 10. His father was described as an oil merchant, so perhaps was not involved in the travelling show business.

There are 3 possible marriages for his parents in Newcastle upon Tyne: 1867, 1868, 1869. As you have John Robert's birth certificate you will know his mother's maiden name, and therefore be able to work out which is the correct one. If you purchase the marriage certificate then you will know his (James's) father's name.

In 1881 they are living at 1, Line Place, Leeds. Refs: Piece: 4518 Folio: 117 Page: 7. This time his father is described as a professional musician who was born at Whitehaven, Cumberland.

I haven't found him in either the 1891 or 1901 Census. Neither can I find his father in 1891. However, in 1901 he is living at 112, York Street, Leeds and described as a music hall muscian. Ref: Piece: 4221 Folio: 133 Page: 10

In 1911 James, by then a widower, was working as a travelling showman and was living at Buntons Yard Byker N/cle (Newcastle upon Tyne).

Going backwards, I have not found James in the 1851 Census, but in the 1861 Census he is with his parents (John and Mary) at 2, Caravans, High Street, Bedlington, Northumberland. His father is a hawker, and his brother John (presumably the other one executed) was born 1842 Thirsk, Yorkshire and is described as a "Travelling Shooting Gallery" - but looking at the return, I think that was the business for the whole family. Obviously that age (42) is very different to other records.

In 1881 John and Mary Miller are living at 10, Chatham Pl, Newcastle Upon Tyne All Saints, and he is described as a retired hardwareman. Mary has lost 4 years in age since the 1861 Census and now says that she was born in 1831 at York.

In 1891 they are living at 22, Hudleston Street, Cullercoats, Cullercoates, Tynemouth and he is described as a retired mechanic.

[Gypsyrose51]

Thanks for your reply. What a bummer when records are destroyed and the one surviving is 6 years to early. Onwards and Upwards.

[Megan Roberts]

What a bummer when records are destroyed and the one surviving is 6 years to early.

Sorry do not understand your comment.

What records are destroyed?

6 years too early?
If you are referring to ages; with virtually ever family you have to approach with caution, as many of our ancestors were not literate.

[Jan1954]

Sorry do not understand your comment.

What records are destroyed?

6 years too early?
If you are referring to ages; with virtually ever family you have to approach with caution, as many of our ancestors were not literate.I think that Gypsyrose51 is referring to Coromandel's post at #5 that show that certain records were destroyed. Also, the reference to an entry in 1901, rather than six years later in 1907, which is the year that Gypsyrose51 is saying that events transpired.

If I am wrong with this supposition, then I apologise.

[Gypsyrose51]

Thanks Megan for all your hard work. Not sure where to start with all this. Firstly the certificates I have are JOHN ROBERT MILLER 1870, His parents are JAMES MILLER and MARY JANE RAMSAY.They married in 1866 in Gtaeshead. I don't have that certificate as yet.
I to have seen the 1851 census at No 2 caravan, High street, Bedlington. This ties in with the rest of my tree as they were all gypsies. They went on to build Spanish City in Witley Bay. The problem with the elder John is getting the correct birthdate. On the death certificate he is aged 67. So that would make his D.O.B 1834 but on various census it varies between 1834 and 1842.
The other problem is that even though I have found Mary married to John Miller, I cant find a marriage certificate. Mary also keeps adding or substracting from her age.
Mary and John Miller had the follwing children but if Mary is John Miller jnr(the hanged one)stepmother then John Miller snr was married previously. More confusion. I believe that John jnr's mother was Ann Miller and he was born 1941 in Thirsk. Then he went on to marry Mary Viney and had 2 more sons James )1847)and Joseph (1952). James was born in Whitehaven, Cumberland and Joseph in Roxboroughshire in Scotland. James Miller died in 1920 in Newcastle Upon Tyne. I hope all this isn't to confusing. I desperately need frsh eyes on this as I seem to be going round and round in circles.

[Gypsyrose51]

Apologies, I even got the date wrong let alone who I sent the post to.

[Gypsyrose51]

I did have the date wrong. Its definetly 7 Dec 1901. Sorry about that. I'm new to this site, how do I PM you?

[Jan1954]

I did have the date wrong. Its definetly 7 Dec 1901. Sorry about that. I'm new to this site, how do I PM you?Click on my user-name (Jan1954) and a drop-down box will appear. One of the options is to send a private message. Click on that and you are there. :smile5:

[Gypsyrose51]

I wonder if any extra information could be gleaned from the death certificates:

Both are registered in Newcastle upon Tyne district in December 1901, volume 10b, page 93 as John MILLER aged 67 and John Robert MILLER aged 31.

John MILLER was the son of Mary FERGUSON by her first husband, who had since died. She had subsequently married Joseph FERGUSON, who was therefore John’s step-father. The other MILLER, John Robert, was a nephew of John MILLER.

The murder happened on Friday 20th September 1901, when Joseph FERGUSON was stabbed six times about the head and face. His death was registered in the December quarter of 1901 in Tynemouth registration district, volume 10b, page 139 with the age of 65 being recorded. I wonder who registered this and if there are any further clues therein?

John Robert pleaded insanity at the trial, saying that he had been kicked in the head by a horse when he was a child and had suffered from headaches ever since. This didn’t wash with the judge (Mr Justice Grantham) and so both he and John were sentenced to death.

John was hanged at 8:00am and John Robert at 9:30am.

In all newspaper reports Mary is staed to be JOHN Miller's stepmother. So making his brothers half brothers and that Mary's first husband JOHN MILLER had been previously married also. So convoluted. Maybe I've got the details wrong. Who knows.

[Megan Roberts]

Have you realised that there were 2 James Millers born at the same time in the same place (Brampton); both registered in Carlisle in 1842?

The second one's parents were Joseph and Sarah, and in 1851 he had brothers Robert, Joseph and Walter - so I would guess that there is a connection - perhaps this Joseph was a brother to Mary's first husband John?

Where it gets really confusing is each generation repeats the same first names!

By the way there is a baptism record for Mary Viney - born 14 March 1824, Bapt. 5 April 1824 at York to parents John and Jane Viney.

[Gypsyrose51]

Thanks again Megan. I've got the christening of Mary Viney but hadn't realised there was two James Millers in 1842 in Brampton. I'll look into that.

[Megan Roberts]

I have had another look in the censuses and found the following:

1891 Census - Joseph born 1852 Scotland (son of Mary Viney) living in South Shields with his wife Sarah (1852 Newcastle) and sons John and James born 1872 and 1873 in Newcastle and both described as travellers. So this John Miller is virtually the same age and born in the same area as John Robert Miller. It's no wonder you get confused.

1911 Census - James Ramsey Miller harpmaker living in Bristol born 1868 Newcastle, USA and is a USA citizen. His wife Mary is the same age but born in Wolverhampton and they have been married for 25 years. Now this could be a complete red herring but it is the combination of the name, age and birth town (same as the brother of John Robert Miller) that made be stop and wonder.

[candyflossking]

Hi Gypsy Rose

So which Miller clang are you from, hope we can chat and see what we can piece together of the fascinating double hanging of my great great grandad ( I presume )

[Pam Downes]

Hello candyflossking,

Welcome to British-Genealogy. :smile5:

Unfortunately you've found a very old thread, and Gypsyrose is no longer a member of the forum, as denoted by the word 'guest' beneath their name. We therefore have no contact details so can't alert them to your post.
However, nil desperandum. You never know who else of the Miller clan might find your post and contact you.

Pam

[candyflossking]

There was no Joseph , just John and John Robert