Uniform Identification

[debdavies]

http://s1303.beta.photobucket.com/user/debdavies/media/WilliamFranklinPhoto2.jpg.html#/user/debdavies/media/WilliamFranklinPhoto2.jpg.html?&_suid=1354974227317003788919170665611
Is anyone able to help with Identifying this uniform. The picture was emailed to me by someone I met on a family history site so I do not have the original. It is believed to be of my great grandad who served in the second Boer War. He has been my brick wall for years now, so this could be a major breakthrough!
I am also curious about the helmet to his left, is it likely to be a photo prop or would it have belonged to him?
All suggestions appreciated.
Thanks
Deb

[Mutley]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

At the moment we cannot see the picture. If you are having difficulty uploading it then this thread (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php/75288-Photobucket?highlight=photobucket) may help you.

[debdavies]

http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag155/debdavies/WilliamFranklinPhoto2.jpg

[Coromandel]

I can't help with the uniform so have been focusing on the photographer instead.

Googling to try to fill in the missing bits in the bottom corners suggests that the photographer was
W.H. Franklin, 3 & 9 High Street, Deal.

There's another photo by him here with a similar caption:

http://www.
flickr.com/photos/stendec2008/4917208236/

Trades directories and/or old newspapers might narrow down the date when he was operating from those addresses.

[debdavies]

Thank you Coromandel, thats helpful will look into it.

[Coromandel]

An earlier photo by W.H.Franklin, dated around 1889, has him at 3 High St & Victoria Rd:

http://www.
flickr.com/photos/22124479@N03/5954651605/

Interestingly the uniform, looks quite similar to the one in Deb's photo and is identified as being that of the Royal Marines Light Infantry. I've no idea how to spot a marine though.

[debdavies]

Thanks, will look at that now.

[debdavies]

Marines never entered my mind, I assumed Army, but that does look similar. Thanks.

[Coromandel]

In case it is your great-grandfather and he was in the Marines, you could try searching the database here:

http://www.
nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/royal-marines-register-service.htm

[Mutley]

I found this picture on
http://www.
casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/12473.html
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r297/MutleyBG/RoyalMarinesUniform.jpg
Private, Royal Marine Light Infantry,
by Sawyer of Walmer

The only difference appears to be the black silk ribbons hanging from the Glengarry
Curiously, this photo was taken less than 2 miles away from yours!

[debdavies]

Thanks Coromandel I will look at that today.
I think I will also try putting the picture in the Marines and Army section of the forum and see what comes back.

[debdavies]

Yes curious, perhaps they were based near by. Interestingly the Marine in the above picture also has what I thought might be a whip for a mounted regiment. Also same sort of sea and ship background, I wonder if that is significant.

[debdavies]

Thanks Mutley and Coromandel. Both very useful, my google searches on Boer War uniforms returned this type of uniform as being Zulu, Army uniforms had become much more plain, which obviously confused me! Marines is looking very likely. I will check out both the area and National Archives. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
Deb

[arthurk]

Deal was one of the main bases of the Royal Marines, so that would tie in with studios there and at Walmer.

Arthur

[debdavies]

A search at the national archives returned 2 good matches within the right date range. I down loaded them both, 1 of them has a service record that matches information my dad told me years ago. The records also contain next of kin, which I was counting on to follow the family further back. I'm not sure this is as expected but the story I have has never found any matches so is perhaps wrong. This is the most reliable lead I have so will follow it up and see where it takes me.
Thanks to Mutley and Coromandel, you're both very good at this.
Deb

[debdavies]

Thanks Arthur, just seen your post, I'd not had time to search that yet.

[jeffersj]

The helmet could just be prop used by the photographer as the badge on it looks more like Army Service Corps.

Jeff

[debdavies]

Ahhh,I've been having doubts today caused by that helmet! Further uniform searches suggest the Royal Marines had a ball on their pith helmets rather than a spike.
Thank You
Deb

[Coromandel]

I'm way out of my depth here, knowing so little about military uniform that I'm dangerous. So I won't attempt to comment about the helmet except to give this link which has some examples of similar-looking helmets called the "Home Service" pattern:

http://www.
nyc-techwriters.com/militaria/british_helmets1.htm

They don't have any from the RMLI, unfortunately. The one they have with a ball on the top is labelled as a Royal Artillery helmet.

You could try posting your photo on the Victorian Wars Forum, victorianwars.com (put www. in front). But I hope you will stay with us on BG too, now that you've found us.:)

Edit:

Oh, I've just found a post on the VWF with a discussion of RMLI uniform . . . there are some excellent photos including some featuring spiked helmets:

http://www.
victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5962

[Mutley]

Good find Coromandel.
I think the helmet is just a prop. The poster on the VWF certainly seems to know his stuff. He has shown pictures with the Field Service Cap and the Glengarry. Your photo shows the Glengarry so that should help with the dates.

Co-incidentally one of the photos is taken by W.A. Sawyer of Walmer, same photographer as the photo in post #10. It would be good if we could find another photo of an entirely different uniform and see if the same helmet, pedestal and background are included. :smile5:

[Mutley]

If you want to try and find the dates for W.H. Franklin, try Historical Directories (google)
He was at High Street Deal in the Kelly's Directory of Kent, 1903. I didn't check the others.

P.S. According to a site called Watch the Birdie
W. H. Franklin was at Deal from 1878-1895.

Dates not quite in agreement!

[debdavies]

Good finds, I think the uniform is probably marines as the uniform appears dark, kahki would be much lighter I think. However, it is a good idea to put the picture on the other site to see what comes back. I'm glad you found the listing in Kelly's because the enlistment papers I downloaded have 1896 as the date of enlistment. That was another little niggle!
Thanks for all the advice folks, I'll let you know how I get on.
Deb
P.s. Yes I will stay with the site-it's been very good.