Parents of Moses Smith c 1816 Harby, Leics

[EastoftG]

Moses Smith's mother, Sylvia, is on the 1841 Census in Wymondham.
Does anyone know any more about Sylvia, or his father, Thomas?

[Mutley]

Welcome to the forum.

Please can I ask if you know for sure that Sylvia is his mother?
I can see the 1841 census and she looks to be so but relationships are not given so I presume you have other evidence.

Also can you tell us if you have Moses in all the following census?
(The 1861 is interesting, there is about 20 of them in the household.) :smile5:

[Waitabit]

Family search has these baptisms for Thomas Smith & Sylvia. Not found a marriage yet.

name: Moses Smith
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 19 May 1816
baptism/christening place: HARBY,LEICESTER,ENGLAND
father's name: Thomas Smith
mother's name: Sylvia
(batch) no: C05370-1

source film number: 590782

Violet- Apr 12. 1819 Melton Mowbray, Leics.
Moses - May 19 ,1816- Harby, Leics
Robert Apr 8th 1811- Wyndonham. Leics
Henry Smith- Aug 19 -Wyndonham, Leics.

Leicestershire Family History group may help you.

[terrysfamily]

Freereg

Baptism Date: 12 Apr 1819, St. Mary's, Melton Mowbray, Leicestershire
Name: Violet
Father: Thomas Smith, Mother: Sylvia
Abode Lives every where and no where
Father's Occupation Gipsy
Notes Ceremony by Tho. Ford vicar

[Mutley]

Family Search also has the baptism of Moses and Elderey's daughter Sophia at Harby on 2 Oct 1842.

So though the family "Lives every where and no where" Moses returned to the scene of his baptism 26 years later.

[Mutley]

Lincolnshire Chronicle, 12 Aug 1865
Burial - On the 6th instant at St. John's Wood, Lincoln Eldri, (sic) wife of Mr. Moses Smith age 42.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romanies are extremely difficult to research, especially the Smith line (mine are Londoners)
There are a multitude of Thomas Smiths, I don't suppose you know where he was born?
Sylvia states on the 1841 'not born in County'

Whilst searching the Lincolnshire newspapers I came across this family. At the moment I cannot make any connection to yours but I think it is worth putting the info one side. They are living in North Luffenham which is Rutland but less than 20 miles from Melton Mowbray. Wymondham, where Sylvia and the children are in 1841 is less than 15 miles away.
There are not so many Moses Smiths and I am wondering if he may be related to your Thomas.
The dots may join up, one day.... :smile5:

Lincolnshire Chronicle, Date: Friday 20 August 1841
Died at North Luffenham, on Monday last, Mr. Moses Smith, plumber and Glazier age 67 (1774)

Lincolnshire Chronicle, Date: Friday 03 January 1845
Died at North Luffenham, on Wednesday last, Mrs. Smith aged 72 (1773), widow of Mr. Moses Smith, plumber and glazier

Mrs Smith was Martha (late Wilson). The children of Moses and Martha were:
6 Sept 1801 Eliza
12 June 1803 Lucy
8 Sept 1805 George Wilson
4 Dec 1808 Emma (b. 20 Nov)

Stamford Mercury, 21 Jan 1842
At Wisbech on the 17th instant (by Rev King) the marriage of Robt Kelham plumber and Glazier to Emma, youngest dau. of the late Mr. Moses Smith all of North Luffenham, Rutland

The baptisms are on Family Search, this Moses is in the 1841 census with Martha and two of the daughters.

Best of Luck.

P.S. Have you found Sylvia in 1851, I've not come across them yet?

[EastoftG]

Thanks, but I already have the baptisms of all the siblings of Moses mentioned above and his marriage certificate and the the burial of his wife.
I also have him on the 1861, 1871, 1881 and 1891 census.
The only census I have found Sylvia on is the one I mentioned in 1841. Moses is there too, with his future wife, Eldria Gray and their first child, Thomas.
Moses' children by Eldria Gray were:
Thomas Christened 1st November 1840 Saxilby, Lincs, died 1909
Sophia Christened 2nd October 1842 Harby Leics, died 1920
William Christened 9th April 1845 Scampton, Lincs.
Emily b abt 1847 Normanby/Toft Newton, Lincoln, died 1924
Sarah Christened 18th February 1849 Willoughton, died 1892
John/Joshua Christened 1st Jun 1851 Bishop Norton, Lincs.
Rabbi Christened 11th Jan 1857 Nettleham, Lincs., died 1930
Walter Christened 3rd January 1860 Reepham, Lincs.
Rainie Christened 14th December 1864 Lincoln, Lincs, died age 8m

John a.k.a. Joshua was my direct ancestor.
The last trace I have of him is in 1911 with his second wife Agnes Smith formerly Bancroft, in North Retford, Notts.

I'll try the Leicestershire Family History group.

I don't know anything at all about Moses' father - apart from his name.
Moses' brother, Thomas, settled in Eagle, Lincs, but I don't know what happened to his other siblings.

[EastoftG]

PS
Much has been posted online about who the various people are in Moses Smith's household in 1861, and about the whole James Mobbs, William Gray, Bethaniah Smith and Tabitha Smith saga.

Since John aka Joshua Smith (son of Moses) married Elizabeth Gray (daughter of Sidney Gray and Violet Smith), they appear elsewhere in my tree as well, because Sidney Gray was the son of William Gray and Tabitha Smith, christened only 4 months before Moses' wife, Eldria Gray.
According to the baptisms, Sidney and Eldria Gray were full siblings, but I'm not convinced that is true.
The 1861 Census census entry implies that Elizabeth Mobbs (aka Bethaniah Smith) was Eldria's mother.
In February 1822, Tabitha and Bethaniah Smith each had a child by William Gray. That time the baptisms were only 3 days apart (in places 12.3 miles apart, according to Google maps).
It seems to me quite likely that the same thing happened again 2 years later, only with the births 4 months apart instead of 3 days.

Also, James and Betty Mobs appear immediately after Elden (Eldria) Gray on the 1841 Census in Wymondham. Even though the age is wrong, I have wondered if Betty Mobs was Bethaniah Smith, travelling with her daughter.

Eric Trudgill told me by email that he is going to publish an article on James Mobbs on gypsygenealogy.co.uk in January, and William Gray in February 2013, so I am going to wait and see what he says. Maybe I am missing something.

In the meantime, I was wondering whether anyone had researched Thomas and Sylvia Smith - hence the post.

[Mutley]

Your first post gave us limited information. to try to help you, we have to follow the family as you have done otherwise we would just be grabbing any old Smith rather than your Smith.
However, I am sorry, I am not able to help you with anything that you do not already know.
You seem to have researched the family as best you can though I wish they could be found in 1851.
Do you have Sylvia's death? I did see one possible but it was not in Leics or Lincs.
It would be interesting to know who registered it and what was written in the 'occupation' column.

Keep popping back to the thread or make sure you have email notification ticked in your profile.
People google for a name and from there are directed to a thread on BG, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not this year or next but I have seen people join several years down the line because.... they googled for granddad and found him here.

Good Luck

[EastoftG]

Sorry I was not specific enough about what I wanted to know. I am new to using forums. I didn't mean to sound ungrateful.
I also searched past threads on this forum and contacted someone I thought might be able to help.
She has now sent me Sylvia's death certificate - so using the forum has moved my research forward.
It says she died in 1848 and was the widow of Thomas Smith, Fiddler.
The death is registered as Silver or Silven Smith in the Grantham Registration district.

[Mutley]

Certainly not ungrateful, don't think that for a moment. We always need to follow the family to be sure we are giving the best advice but that often means giving you information you already know.

We do have members that have Romany resources and I am very glad you have been in contact with one.

My Thomas, though not a Smith, was also a fiddler so we have something in common.

Good Luck.