Divorce? Annulment? Declared Dead?

[gemmaallen1977]

Hello

Wondering if anyone could help/advise me on a situation regarding my great grandmother. She was born Elizabeth May Todd (in Woolwich) in September 1902 and married a ? (first name unknown) Collins in Woolwich in September 1923 with a son Charles Collins being born December 1924. Apparently her husband was a soldier in the barracks at Woolwich and (not sure when) he disappeared and apparently was not heard of again.... leaving Elizabeth with a baby/young child on her own. But she then met Charles Randall and several children with him from abt 1928 although they didn't marry until 1943 in Woolwich. On the marriage certificate Elizabeth is listed as a widow... I'm wondering how I can possibly find out more about her first marriage and if she really did become a widow how would she have known her first husband had died if nobody knew where he was? Would she have been granted a divorce/annulment and if so could I possibly find out about it without knowing all the specific details? On talking to my uncle he seemed to think that her first husband, Collins, might have been declared dead? Would love to hear from anybody with any suggestions/advice - Many thanks, Gemma

[Guy Etchells]

After not hearing from her husband for seven years she was free to re-marry.

If her husband had gone overseas and she knew he was still alive she would still be free to marry after seven years because he was overseas.
Cheers
Guy

[Nicolina]

Elizabeth M. TODD married Charles COLLINS Dec 1923 Woolwich Vol 1d Page 2200

[Nicolina]

given the year of her second marriage, it is possible that Charles died in WW2.

[Jan1954]

given the year of her second marriage, it is possible that Charles died in WW2.In which case there is a death of a Charles COLLINS on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website, who died 27th February 1941 and who is commemorated at Shorncliffe Military Cemetery: http://www.
cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2655218/COLLINS,%20CHARLES%20CECIL

No telling if this is your chap, but maybe his military records would give you a few clues.

[gemmaallen1977]

Dear Guy, Nicolina and Jan

Thank all so much for your helpful advice and suggestions - These are all very positive leads and I am going to look at all of them, thank you so much. I appreciate your help with this :) Gemma

[Nicolina]

without knowing how old he was it is hard to narrow him down. If you were to get the marriage certificate it might give his age, or if not his father's name which could help find him in the Census.

[Peter Goodey]

You do need certificates. The more sticky the problem, the more you need.

Without the benefit of knowing many names, my reading of the GRO indexes suggests that the Randall/Todd children were all legitimised in a bumper bundle in 1945 (see the Legitimacy Act of 1926). Is that right?

My understanding of the law as it was at that time is that neither parent should have been married to someone else at the time of the birth.

If that's right the mother surely ought to have been widowed or divorced by the time the first child was born.

[Peter Goodey]

Have you not got the Todd/Collins marriage certificate? You need it for the husband's name, father, age and occupation. You can use the reference number that Nicolina provided to order it.

[gemmaallen1977]

Hi Peter

Thanks for your post (and to all who had previously posted). I have now ordered the Marriage Certificate – I must be keeping the GRO busy with the amount of certificates I’ve ordered recently! To be completely honest I only really found out about this whole situation properly in July of this year, it was something that wasn’t ever discussed until I started asking questions at a family party and unfortunately the people that I can still ask don’t know very much either. Until recently I had been researching other lines of my tree and so I wasn’t aware of any of this until I couldn’t find a marriage between a Todd and Randall!

Also I didn’t even know that the children’s births might have been re-registered until I read your reply and I will definitely look at this tonight and hopefully the Marriage Certificate will provide further clues as to what happened to Charles and why he disappeared and her second marriage.

Once again many thanks to you and everybody else for their advice and assistance with this, much appreciated.

Gemma

[gemmaallen1977]

I have now received the marriage certificate for my great-grandmother's first marriage to Charles Collins. However I still cannot find a birth for him. They married in December 1923 in Woolwich, Charles Collins is aged 19 years and a clerk with the R.F.A. and his residence is Royal Artillery Barracks Woolwich. He father is deceased and is James (undecipherable) Collins. His father was a stoker with the Royal Navy. Therefore if anybody could help me decipher this unknown name I would be very grateful, I don't think I can post an attachment to here?? or if anybody has any ideas as to how I can find out who this disappearing Charles Collins was or where and when he was born? Thanks, Gemma.:confused5:

[Jan1954]

Hello Gemma

You can post to the forum by using a site like Photobucket. Instructions on what to do are here (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php/30819-How-to-use-Photobucket). Just post a snippet and we will try to work out what it says. :smile5:

[Del 80]

Hello, I have a similar situation, to the one being discussed, in a family that I am tracing in Scotland, may I just ask ,if the person is missing, and then declared dead ,do they then show up [on certs] as being deceased ? allthough there is a chance that they are still alive?...........Del.

[Waitabit]

MAny times on marriages a Parent is said to be dead, for many reasons. Truth-deceased. wish- family troubles, unknown.
If deceased can be proven with certificates GRO deaths all good. Otherwise take with a grain of the usual.

[Mutley]

If you can post a section of the marriage certificate it would be useful.
Do you think the name might be Jessie?

There is a Jessie Collins at Chatham in the 1911 census. He is a leading Stoker in the Royal Navy. He says born 1882 in Canterbury.

Problem is that he is single and I would have thought he should have been married because Charles would have been born by then, unless Charles was illegitimate and is with his mother somewhere.

The other problem is that Jessie is a female name and there are loads of them, I am struggling to find a male.

[Mutley]

The other problem is that Jessie is a female name and there are loads of them, I am struggling to find a male.

The male versions of the name seem to be Jess, Jesse or Jesiah.

[gemmaallen1977]

Hi everybody thanks for your posts and your help, here is the link to the marriage cert of Elizabeth Todd and Charles Collins....

http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh516/gemmaallen1977/Gemma%20Certificates%202012/e3327cb8.jpg or an alternative link is

http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh516/gemmaallen1977/Gemma%20Certificates%202012/e3327cb8.jpg

All help in deciphering Charles Collins' dad's name would be greatly appreciated. I know his name is James ???? Collins.

Thanks

Gemmahttp://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/hh516/gemmaallen1977/Gemma%20Certificates%202012/e3327cb8.jpg

[Mutley]

Sorry, I misunderstood, I thought you meant it looked like James.

But what it is, I don't really know.
It seems to end in ***swell.
I thought at first it was Guyswell but looking at his other 'y' letters they have a straight tail.
If you look at the word England it has a loop to the 'g' which is the same as in the name.
I cannot make out the first letter, it does not look like the 'E' in Elizabeth.
I wondered about Kingswell but it does not look like a 'K'.

It may not be a first name, it is possible that it is a surname from the maiden side of the family.
I've looked in the census for a James born about 1875 +/- 3 which puts him in his later 20s when Charles was born but I cannot see one with a middle name anything like it. Lots with initials and of course, we do not know where he was born.

I'll keep looking and hope someone can help more.

[gemmaallen1977]

Thanks for trying Mutley! I've been asking everybody I've seen and nobody can work out what this says!

[Waitabit]

I wonder if it's a fancy 'F'? Freyswell.

[Waitabit]

After much squinting= Greysmith?
probably just squinty eye syndrome!