Gates Family in England

[Sharon Medley]

Hello everybody,
Was wondering if anybody is reaching the family of John and Eliza (Elizabeth ) Gates? They only information I have on the family is on the baptisim records of their four children (may be more but have not found).
Children: George Gates born 31 Dec 1842..Frederick Gates born 20 Jul 1846..Thomas Gates born 20 Apr 1848..Harriet Elizth. Gates born 04 Jun 1855,
all were Baptised @ St. Thomas, Stepney, London England. I do know that Frederick migrated to Canada in 1865. I am desperately trying to find the maiden name of John's wife Eliza. Any information would be appreciated.
I will be happy to share what information on Frederick (he is my GGgrandfather).
Thank you
Sharon (Watson) Medley

[Francesca]

My G-G-grandmother was called Maria Gates. She was born in 1810 in MDX< England. Her father was James Gates and was born in Buckinghamshire. She married Joseph Webster. In 1871, she was a Launderess, and lived in Mile end, London. Her father James Gates 1779-1864 was born in Buckinghamsire. In 1861 at the age of 81 he was a gerneral carmen and lived with his daughter and two grandsons at 6 upper John Street, Mile end Old Town.

[Sharon Medley]

Thank you for your reply Francesca, I will check and see if I find any of them in my Tree...I've just started my research on the England part of my family so may take awhile. Still trying to find the parents in England of my GGgrandfather who was born in England then moved to Canada.

Sharon

[idredge]

The best way is if you can find his birth certificate, this would give his mother full maiden name, father and fathers occupation. It may not give a full address but it will tell you where they were living.

Are you sure that they were Fredericks siblings, if so if you can't find his birth Certificate in 1837.com then you may be able to find one of the siblings.

Have you looked on Freebmd this is the indexing in London from which you can order birth marriage or death certificates. They started to record bm & d in Sept 1837 and the indexing is up to present day. Freebmd is free but you will find that it is not finished yet so some quarters still missing it covers 1837- to around 1910

1837 com are scanned copies of the indexing you can view all but it will cost you .10 pence per page, it could cost a min of .40 pence per year, so its better if you have a rough idea when the birth marriage or death happened. You can buy credits of 55 = £5.00 more if you want to. Note how long they last so use them or lose them. You can save each page to your computer so you will only have to pay the once for that quarters page. Don't forget to save it by naming it the year name & quarter.

You may find that you want to view the pages later if you find cousins born around that time so it makes sense to save them.

So start by using Freebmd and then if they are not there try 1837.com

Try different spellings, and check that they didn't have a different 1st name, if you can't still find them then they may not be there as not all were recorded. Birth parents didn't have to record births until 1875 when it then became law for them to do so. Up til then the registrar went around and recorded any new births if they family were missing then the birth went unrecorded.

Also on Freebmd in the Marriages, if you find one for John Gates you can click on the page number and it should bring up every one on that page. 1837 - about 1870 will give you 8 name, 4 of each for 4 marriages per page, check to see if there was an Eliza it may just be yours. After about 1870 they put only 2 marraiges per page so 2 of each.

Hope this helps.

Irene

[Sharon Medley]

Thank you Irene,
I would love to find a birth certificate, only problem is that I don't know exactly where in England they were born. Only know where they were christened(found four children on LDS site, all show same parents Jon Gates and Eliza_______).Have tried going back to LDS library but they are closed until 01 Aug.
I have gone to freebmd and found seven John Gates marriages with several Elizabeths (no Eliza). Have tried looking at England censuses but sofar no luck.
If you have anymore suggestions would love to hear them.
Thank you for your reply.
Sharon

[Johnpegram]

Hi there,

I've been researching my 'Gates' ancestors and found the following site had a very good family tree, for the Gates's in Cranham and Ockendon in the county of Essex in England, from 1740 - 1940.

Cranham & Ockendon are about 10 miles to the East of Stepney in London.

Cheers

John

[Peter Goodey]

Hi John

Apologies if I've misinterpreted your surname but I you've come across an Arthur Charles Pegram who was around in 1910 in the London area? Someone of that name surfaced briefly in my tree.

[Lizbee]

My G-G-grandmother was called Maria Gates. She was born in 1810 in MDX< England. Her father was James Gates and was born in Buckinghamshire. She married Joseph Webster. In 1871, she was a Launderess, and lived in Mile end, London. Her father James Gates 1779-1864 was born in Buckinghamsire. In 1861 at the age of 81 he was a gerneral carmen and lived with his daughter and two grandsons at 6 upper John Street, Mile end Old Town.

James Gates 1779 -1864 had two other daughters, Jane and Elizabeth. Jane married Stephen Dixon a butcher whilst Elizabeth remained single and worked for the latter part of her life in Wanstead Infant Orphan Asylum as a nurse. Joseph Webster was an apprentice butcher working with Stephen in New Road Stepney.

[flyingpast]

Hello everybody,
Was wondering if anybody is reaching the family of John and Eliza (Elizabeth ) Gates? They only information I have on the family is on the baptisim records of their four children (may be more but have not found).
Children: George Gates born 31 Dec 1842..Frederick Gates born 20 Jul 1846..Thomas Gates born 20 Apr 1848..Harriet Elizth. Gates born 04 Jun 1855,
all were Baptised @ St. Thomas, Stepney, London England. I do know that Frederick migrated to Canada in 1865. I am desperately trying to find the maiden name of John's wife Eliza. Any information would be appreciated.
I will be happy to share what information on Frederick (he is my GGgrandfather).
Thank you
Sharon (Watson) Medley

Hi Sharon,

Re. your message about the Gates family in England, dated July 2005, I am wondering if you received any helpful answers to your query? There is a remote possibility that my family may be connected but I cannot show that on evidence known to me. My great-grandfather was a George Gates, son of John Gates, but that is all I know.
Thanks, Tim Gates

[Dundee10]

Hi and Welcome flyingpast.

The family that Sharon listed details for in her post were actually named YATES, not GATES. Eliza's maiden surname was also YATES. The birth registrations are on the GRO indexes and they are also YATES in census records. I have only had a brief look at Sharon's other posts and it seems she was going around in circles and possibly didn't end up working it out. Her Frederick had the same date of birth (not sure if she means exact date or just year) as Frederick YATES so maybe he changed his name.

You might like to tell us what you know about your George to see if we can find him. Who and where did your George marry? Children?

[flyingpast]

Hello Dundee10

Thanks for this. You are absolutely right, since my post I checked the census records myself and the surname clearly appears as YATES in 1851, 1861 & 1871. So, as far as I am concerned, this lead was a red herring.

My great-grandfather was GEORGE GATES. His employment records give his birth date as 31 May 1847. He consistently claimed to have been born in Germany and may well have changed his name when he came to London. For this reason it has proved impossible to trace his ancestry. He was a mariner and, oddly enough, was in New South Wales in August 1871 where he took out a Miner's Right. But, again, it has proved impossible to learn anything about him from that.

It's kind of you to offer help but I fear his origins will always be an enigma.

[christanel]

Welcome to the British-Genealogy forums flyingpast.
Do you have George's marriage certificate to Alice Grover in 1897 Registration district Poplar? Does it give a father's name? The census records giving his place of birth as Germany does not make him German. He was a British citizen born in Germany. Do you have a marriage certificate for his first marriage to Henrietta? Their son Thomas George birth reg 1877 Poplar has his mother's maiden name as Brooks? But I can't find a birth registraton with mmn Brooks for the daughter Henrietta born c 1867. Was Henrietta married previously so her daughter registered in another name or was she Henrietta's illegitimate daughter? So many questions :smile5: but if you do not want us to look into this any further just say 'Stop" :smile5:

Added:- Have just reread your post and see George's father's name was John Gates.
Christina

[almach]

Their son Thomas George birth reg 1877 Poplar has his mother's maiden name as Brooks?

If the above Thomas George, son of George and Henrietta are your family it appears Henrietta's birth surname was Brooks and she was a widow when she married George GATES. Do you have a copy of the marriage certificate, and if so is an occupation given for George's father?

Henrietta Brin
Marital Status: Widowed
Marriage Date: 23 Feb 1874
Marriage Place: St. Thomas, Stepney, Middlesex, England
Father: George Brooks
Spouse: George Gates
Father: John Gates

Marriages Sep 1866, Poplar 1c 1220
Henrietta Brooks/Richard BRIND

BRIND, HENRIETTA MARIA, Mother's maiden name BROOKS
GRO Reference: 1866 D Quarter in POPLAR UNION Volume 01C Page 693

[Dundee10]

George's father was labourer, marriage cert and more info here:

http://www.brind.co.uk/Brind/FT/Yaki/flood.html#cert2

I see that George's birthplace in 1901 is Sunderland, maybe something to keep in mind as that may be where his family came from even if he wasn't born there.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X94F-J8C

[flyingpast]

Thanks to Dundee10, Almach and Christanel for your posts.

Between you you have done a pretty thorough job on this family so thank you for that.

As you have discovered, George Gates' marriage certificate of 1874 states that his father, John Gates, was a 'labourer' and that is all we know about him. Again, Jonathan Brind has posted details of GG's first wife, Henrietta Brin(d), nee Brooks, on his website. There you may also find a reference to a bible belonging to her father, George Brooks, which was given to him in 1832 when he was fourteen. That bible has been handed down through my family and contains records of the Brooks family but no details relevant to George Gates.

I made contact with Joan Flood last year and she was able to provide new and interesting details of some of George Gates' grandchildren and their descendants but nothing further about George Gates' own ancestry. She also drew my attention to the fact that there is a place called 'Sundernland' in Westphalia which could possibly explain the reference to his birthplace as 'Sunderland' in the 1901 census (except that is written explicitly as 'Sunderland, Durham', though this could be the census taker's own interpolation). Joan says she has researched this possible German connection but without result.

There seem to be two possibilities, both equally unhelpful. (1) If George Gates was indeed born in Germany he may or may not have been born of British parents and hence may or may not have been a British subject at birth; if not he may have taken or assumed British citizenship on coming to the UK. If the latter then this was done without formality as there are no relevant Home Office naturalisation papers. If he (and his parents?) changed their surname from eg Goetz, Gotts, or several other common and similar German names, then there is no official record of their having done so, and they would in effect become untraceable (2) George Gates may not have been born in Germany but had reasons of his own to say that he had been (eg he may have been illegitimate or an orphan or wished to disown or disguise his family background).

I have trawled through BMD records from 1874 onwards looking for a plausible date of death for George Gates' father, named as John Gates on his marriage certificate of that year, but have failed to find a likely fit. That too makes me suspicious that GG may have been deceiving us.

I fear that I have drawn the three of you into a problem that has so far resisted all attempts at a solution. I am most appreciative of all you have uncovered but am afraid that you may be led further onto the same wild goose chase that I have been pursuing for the last 20 years!