Margaret Julia Tracey

[lynn2405]

My paternal grandma, Margaret Julia Tracey was allegedly born in London (not managed to locate birth cert yet, although got her marriage cert!) Her family seems to have originated in Ireland, specifically Co. Kerry. I'd love to know more about her (she died when I was a little girl) & maybe even find evidence to substantiate the family myth that Spencer Tracy was a distant relation!

[Kerrywood]

Hi, and welcome to the forums :seeya:

I've copied the above post from the Surname Interests forum, where threads are automatically closed and can't be responded to.

If we could have a few more details from you about Margaret, it will be easier for our members to help. :smile5:

[mistybay]

Please read my THREADS {Margaret Tracy (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php/68697-Margaret-Tracy)} & {Elizabath Agnes Hughes - Carlisle (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php/67815-Elizabeth-Agnes-Hughes-Carlisle)}.
To see if there is information that might be relavent to our Margaret??!!
Maybe the moderator can hard link the threads, I'm not sure how.

[lynn2405]

Hi
First, many thanks, Kerrywood, for reposting this for me! I'm so sorry, Mistybay, my gran was born in London in about 1890, so they can't be the same person, but if I see anything useful during my searches, I'll post it on here; you never know! I have got Margaret Julia's parents' marriage cert (1887) & they were living in "Peabodys Buildings" (I put that in quotes as that's how it was written & I wonder if it was a local name for the flats & not the correct postal address?) I have also got her own marriage cert (1910); my grandad was born and brought up in Bury, Lancashire & that's where they got married & lived for the rest of their lives. They appear on the 1911 census & this is where we got the info of her being born in London. Her mum and dad were Nicholas Charles Tracey and Margaret Asley, but Nicholas was listed as deceased on Margaret Julia's wedding cert. I have a wedding cert also for Nicholas' mum & dad (1848; they were living at Lamb Court, London) and they appear on the 1861 census, which gives place of birth as Roscommon (Andrew) & Kelly Ireland (Julia). I assume "Kelly" is Kerry as her maiden name Bresnan/Breshnan/Brosnan (she couldn't write so we're not sure of the exact spelling)seems to originate from there. Sorry about posting so much but not sure what's useful & what's not!! Thanks again!

[Sumi]

As the marriage of Nicholas and Margaret was registered at Holborn, I had a look at Holborn births for a Margaret....second names were not always given or sometimes just given at baptism. A long shot is Margaret TRESADERY registered Sept qtr 1891....I've seen worse transcriptions!

good luck

Sue

[Kerrywood]

Thanks for the extra information.

Have you found Margaret Julia TRACEY in any census with her parents?

The 1871 for her supposed father Nicholas (aged 9) is presumably RG10/410 folio 91 page 29 (St Luke's, as TRACY), but I can't find him in 1881.


I have got Margaret Julia's parents' marriage cert (1887)
Can you please tell us Nicholas' occupation, and the occupations of both fathers, as given on the 1887 marriage certificate? Also the names of the witnesses?

I wonder if Nicholas TRACEY and Margaret (ASLEY) had split and regrouped after the 1887 marriage and before the 1891 census? There's a possible candidate for Nicholas (born St Luke's c1864) living with a Sarah in St Pancras in 1891, and in Newington in 1901. He is a Hammerman, which is why I wondered about the occupation on the marriage certificate. It's a distinctive combination of forename and surname.

1891 - RG12/124 folio 27 page 47 (Ancestry has indexed him as Vietolas TRACEY)
1901 - RG13/385 folio 114 page 25
(census records held by TNA, Crown copyright)

If by chance they had split and regrouped before Margaret Julia's birth, she might have been registered with a different surname.


& they were living in "Peabodys Buildings" (I put that in quotes as that's how it was written & I wonder if it was a local name for the flats & not the correct postal address?)
There were (are) a large number of Peabody Buildings in London. Was this a Catholic marriage? If you can tell us the church, we may be able to pin down the address for you. Also, Margaret Julia may have been baptised at the same church?


Sorry about posting so much but not sure what's useful & what's not!!

It's all useful -- the more details the better. :smile5:

[grisel]

I have been wondering about the 1893 marriage of a Nicholas Tracey, also in Holborn. There is a Sarah Mallett on the same page.
I can't find a Margaret Tracey death though.

[lynn2405]

With regard to censuses, I haven't found Margaret Julia on any with her parents but, thinking about it (& with respect to her dad's occupation) I suppose that could be because they were out of the country. He is listed as a soldier on his 1887 marriage cert. He was born in 1861 in the district of White Cross Street (parents' address given as Elizabeth Place). His dad was Andrew Tracey & I have found HIM on the census - guess what? Born in Ireland! I can find no other trace (apart from census listing as Andrew's wife) anywhere of his wife whose was Margaret Asley. Mind you, Nicholas' parents were illiterate so I suppose it's possible Margaret's parents were too (I have a wedding cert for Thomas Walker & Ellen Grogan which gives her surname as Groven. Well, if you couldn't read & write, you couldn't say it was wrong, could you? I find that so sad). Nicholas' dad (Andrew)was a pavior (as were lots of my forebears apparently!) Margaret's dad (Patrick Asley) was a farmer. Both dads were deceased in 1887. Nicholas & Margaret were married in St Joseph's Catholic Church, which I thought might be the one on Bunhill Row. (The marriage cert says "district of Holborn". Does that make sense? I suppose I am getting hung up on the details really as I do have Margaret Julia's marriage cert & I know when & where she died. I am very new to family history (only started last month, due to prompting from my cousin!) and I find the gaps SOOOOO frustrating! I can say that I imagine Margaret Julia's grandparents came over from Ireland due to the famine (Andrew & Margaret getting married in Whitechapel in 1848). Thanks to everyone for your help & suggestions - it's great to see an online community where everyone is so helpful to one another!

[lynn2405]

Thanks for this, but my grandma was a Walker by the time she died in Lancashire in 1958. I was just amazed that our family has a couple of generations in London when I was led to believe they went direct from Ireland to Lancashire!

[lynn2405]

Thanks for this Sumi, I think the date is too late, but the idea of inaccurate transcription is a good one, so I am now using that as a starting point. Cheers!

[Kerrywood]

I am very new to family history (only started last month, due to prompting from my cousin!) and I find the gaps SOOOOO frustrating!

It may be best to slow down a little, and try to fill the gaps as you go along. That way you can have more confidence that you are following the right family. Leaping over gaps can be dangerous. :wink5:

Can we go back just one step further ... ?


I have also got her own marriage cert (1910) ... but Nicholas was listed as deceased on Margaret Julia's wedding cert.

Is there an occupation recorded for Nicholas on this marriage certificate of 1910?

Is he recorded there as Nicholas, or as Nicholas Charles?

There is an army service record for a Nicholas TRACEY in the Royal Artillery, but there may be more than one person of that name. So it is important to get all the facts straight first.

[lynn2405]

Thanks for the advice! I take your point about slowing down! Yesterday, I decided to go systematically through all the sites I have access to & look for all the people about whom I need to know more. And, yes, I found the military record for Nicholas! I know it is the same person, even though it just says Nicholas, as one of the docs has his wife's name (her full maiden name) as his next of kin. On their marriage cert & on Margaret Julia's marriage cert, he is shown as Nicholas Charles, but on his own birth cert & the census record of 1871, he is Nicholas. Mind you, I have considered the possibility that MJ also had just one Christian name at registration, so that's another avenue to explore! As to the Peabody Buildings address I have spoken to the historian at Peabody Trust & she said (with the wedding being at St Joseph's RC church) it was probably White Cross Street or Roscoe Street. I am finding that, just when I think I might lose heart, another little nugget turns up & keeps me digging!

[Kerrywood]

I found the military record for Nicholas! I know it is the same person, even though it just says Nicholas, as one of the docs has his wife's name (her full maiden name) as his next of kin.

Yes, I know the army record is for the Nicholas TRACEY who married Margaret ASLEY. That is not in doubt.

What concerned me earlier was whether this Nicholas TRACEY -- who served in the army and married Margaret ASLEY -- was also the father of your Margaret Julia TRACEY. Without a birth certificate for Margaret Julia, that is still not proven. There could be more than one Nicholas TRACEY.


On their marriage cert & on Margaret Julia's marriage cert, he is shown as Nicholas Charles
Good. :smile5: The use of the middle name Charles on the 1910 marriage certificate now makes the connection more likely, because the combination of names is more distinctive.

As a next step, you need to try to connect the information about Nicholas Charles TRACEY on the 1910 marriage certificate with the Nicholas TRACEY who has been found elsewhere.

So, can you please tell us what occupation (if any) is given for the 'deceased' Nicholas Charles on that 1910 marriage certificate? Perhaps we can match that up with other information?


I have spoken to the historian at Peabody Trust & she said (with the wedding being at St Joseph's RC church) it was probably White Cross Street or Roscoe Street.
The location of Peabody Buildings is made clear in the army service record. If you look closely at the detail, you will see that these buildings were in Errol Street. A glance at a map will show you that this is indeed part of the complex of buildings off Whitecross Street (still there today).