How to find this type of record please

[Heather Barford]

I have been told that local councils in the past wanted/needed the information of a baby born out of wedlock to a single mother so they could make sure that the cost of supporting the child did not fall on their shoulders. My grandfathers born 1869 real father paid all cost including education and apprenticship but would not give permission for him to leave the country till he was 21. Somewhere records must be stored at least on information pertaining to education. Where would you need to search for these?
Heather

[Jan1954]

Have you identified which school your grandfather attended? If so, an email to the local record office/archives could prove fruitful. I know that the Hertfordshire RO, for example, has records for some schools - mainly private ones - and are happy to help. Hopefully, others are the same.

If you are looking for apprenticeship records, then this TNA research guide (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/apprenticeship-records.htm) may help. :smile5:

[Megan Roberts]

You could also look for records of Bastardy Bonds.

[Kerrywood]

You could also look for records of Bastardy Bonds.
As this is 1869 or later, you'd be looking for an affiliation order (bastardy bonds belong to an earlier period).

Any order that survives would be amongst the records of the petty sessions (local court). These are normally held at the county record office.

To identify the appropriate petty sessional division to search, you would need to know exactly where the mother was living at the time. So what is the address on the birth certificate?

I'm not sure why this thread is in the Adoption forum. Would you like it moved elsewhere, perhaps to Illegitimacy, or to the appropriate county forum (if you can tell us which?).

[Peter Goodey]

I'm puzzled by the question.


My grandfathers born 1869 real father paid all cost including education and apprenticship but would not give permission for him to leave the country till he was 21.

What evidence do you already have of this? Are you looking for more evidence to back it up? To identify the father?

If I was clearer about what you want to achieve, I might have some ideas.

[Heather Barford]

I leave it to you to pop it in an appropriate place.
I think the reason I put it where I did is probably because of the fact that the date of his birth was registered by the grandparents and the address given was theirs. In the census records he is always described as grandson. Although born in 1869 he lived there with them from1871 untill 1897 and this couples name was given on his marriage and death certificate as his parents. Perhaps because no one in those days nobody wanted to shout from the rooftops that they were illegitimate. Not that it was anybodies business except theirs, but that is just the way it was even when I was young. Circumstances and attitudes have changed since then, now more children are born before, than after, if marriage at all takes place. In fact I was shocked when my daughter at 9 years of age informed me that she had always thought that people met lived together, had children then married. I thought about it and realised that all the weddings we attended one or other of the couple had a child or children and most of her little friends had parents recently married. My son born in 1966 informed me when he went to High School that he was the only child in the class that still had his origional parents. And to top it all off our kids felt deprived because of this.

[Heather Barford]

I think 1837 was the end of this however from then on a child born out of wedlock was legitimated by the subsequent marriage of his parents. His mother did marry at a later date but I don't know if he was the father.

[Heather Barford]

It was never a secret at home I was brought up by my grandparents and it was due to his good education that he managed to have a lot of opportunities in life. He was a builder, cabinet maker, barrel maker, engineer, roads and bridge builder and train driver. I found his certificate to drive the engines at the railway yards in Abbytown, when he was quite young. He formed companies and employed a lot of men and helped to develop the area he arrived in.
His father was always referred to as old man Marshall and as far as I know his name was John Marshall and my greatgrandmother was the upstairs maid there, he was the son who never married. However in the 1871 census she was working for another family and as she was only 16 when he was born the 1861 census wouldn't give us any clues. In 1923 my grandfather got a letter from one of his half sisters in America to say that his mother had cancer and wanted to see him before she died to explain why she hadn't been able to take him to America with the rest of the family. He caught the first ship available but she had been dead a month when he arrived at Christmas. After spending time with his half sister visiting all the cousins in America.In 1924 he then went to England to tell his real father about her death, his father was living with two spinster sister in a large house and he brought home a lot of things,water colour paintings one had done and toys they had, had as children and needlework. As his father wanted to meet the wife in 1928 my grandmother also went on a trip with grandad to meet the family in fact they got a housekeeper in to look after the children, who had no wish to travel and spent 2 years in the UK. When they did a return visit in 1934 he was no longer alive. Gifts had always been sent to the grandchildren and cards to grandad signed Dad or John and it was after his grandfather had died by the date stamp. Anyway when I was 21 and given an old Browns Diary by a friend as a present I thought because the area for family information hadn't been filled in I will do a family tree. When I mentioned it to Dads older sister she was horrified her words " You can't do that you know dad was illegitimate our name should be Marshall not Douglas. Well I waited till after she died. So really I would like to know if my name should have been Marshall although I prefer Douglas I think my brother will have to have a DNA when it gets cheap enough. Besides their is a whole branch of my family tree missing so we are deprived of that knowledge and I am sure he would have wanted us after all we now live in an era where class distinction is no longer important.

[Kerrywood]

Thread moved from the Adoption forum.


His father was always referred to as old man Marshall and as far as I know his name was John Marshall


So really I would like to know if my name should have been Marshall although I prefer Douglas ... their is a whole branch of my family tree missing

It seems you're trying to identify the father. Is that correct?

If you can tell us exactly what is on the 1869 birth certificate, especially the addresses, it might be easier to help.

If you'd prefer not to do this, I believe it will be possible only to offer general advice of the kind given above.


and my greatgrandmother was the upstairs maid there, he was the son who never married. However in the 1871 census she was working for another family and as she was only 16 ...

Can you please provide the census reference for 1871, and any others that you have? If you don't have the numerical references, at least the names, ages and census locations for each year would help our members to identify the people involved. :smile5:

[Heather Barford]

English birth certificates I have found very disappointing unlike certificates from other countries are not very informative, all it gives is is the date he was born, the date he was registered. Two years later and the name of his parents who were really his Grandparents as accident would have it his mother and grandmother had the same name of Hannah and as John is such a common name father and grandfather is John. The only address on the certificate is his grandparents. Christening certificate just has the mothers name of Hannah.

[Heather Barford]

Talked to a second cousin on the phone yesterday whose family came to New Zealand about 20 years later and she seemed to think that her parent attended the Church of England school in Abbytown Cumberland England. As I have a postcard of the school perhaps I could scan a picture of it and ask if it is the correct school, even if it isn't they may recognise the building.
I did however think about the fact that payment of monies might have been a gentlemans agreement and not done through official channels anyway.

[Kerrywood]

all it gives is is the date he was born, the date he was registered.

Perhaps you have only a 'short' birth certificate, giving only basic details.

A full birth certificate in England and Wales should give you the following:

Date and place of birth
Forenames
Sex
Name and surname of father
Name and maiden surname of mother
Occupation of father
Signature, description and residence of informant
Date registered

Do you not have the above information?

If you're not familiar with the format of English birth certificates, you might want to have a look at our webpages. (http://www.british-genealogy.com/certificates/birth-certificates.html).