LOWE, GOLDING, GRANT Kirby-le-Soken

[Geoffers]

William LOW(E) lived in Buxton, Norfolk 1744-1820. Buxton is a small village on the river Bure. The river Bure was used by wherries to transport goods to Yarmouth.

Several of the sons of William LOW(E) migrated to Lincolnshire and Essex:

1) Abel Shepherd LOWE (1787-1869) moved to Kirby-le-Soken and married Elizabeth GOLDING there in 1817. He had several children up to 1830, who lived in this area of Essex.

2) William LOWE (1778-1869) moved to Kirby-le-Soken and married Elizabeth Ann ANNIS there in 1810. Several children were born there before William and his family returned to Norfolk, sometime around 1822-25 (two of this William's sons emigrated to America).

Kirby-le-Soken is a small port.

continued...

[Geoffers]

3) John LOWE (1781-1863) married in Lincolnshire to a woman called Elizabeth (probably Elizabeth HOWE) and had a child there in 1822 and two more in 1827 and 1831. Another child was born back in Buxton, Norfolk in 1833.John then returned to Lincolnshire where he appears in census returns, and had two more children. John LOWE lived in Boston, a port on the east coast.

The baptisms of Abel Shepherd LOWE and William LOWE both appear in Kirby parish register.

There now appears to be the possibility that John LOWE may also have had a child in Kirby-le-Soken in 1823. An entry refers to the baptism of John son of John & Elizabeth LOWE on 2nd Oct 1823. I have found no other references to a John & Elizabeth LOWE in Kirby - they seem to appear there out of the blue.

I am now exploring the possibility that John LOWE moved first to Lincs, married there, moved to Essex (did he receive word from his brothers that it was a place worth trying for work?) before going back to Buxton (in the workhouse) and then Lincolnshire again. I don't need specific help, but this post is on the offchance that someone else on this forum may be researching a Lowe family from Kirby-le-Soken and may be stuck as to their origins.
Geoffers

Diane continues this thread with information about the GOLDING family, one of whom married to LOWE family - the thread then goes onto GRANTs who are connected to the GOLDINGs it gets a bit complicated, but if read you browse through the whole thing, it's really quite interesting and best kept as one single thread which has evolved over time.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

1) [color=darkgreen]Abel Shepherd LOWE (1787-1869) moved to Kirby-le-Soken and married Elizabeth GOLDING there in 1817. He had several children up to 1830, who lived in this area of Essex.

Hi Geoffers,
I haven't got any LOWE's in my file, but my Sarah GOLDING bap. 20 Nov 1803 Kirby-le-Soken married Thomas GRANT in 1820 in that Parish ..... wonder if Elizabeth was an older sister?

I've only got an elder brother William bap. 1801, both are the children of Thomas GOLDING m. Elizabeth BROWN in 1790, so it's quite possible?

Years ago, I paid someone a fee to look up Sarah's baptism for me and her brother just happened to be on the same page ..... trouble is, I can't remember the name of the researcher now! :(

[Geoffers]

I haven't got any LOWE's in my file, but my Sarah GOLDING bap. 20 Nov 1803 Kirby-le-Soken married Thomas GRANT in 1820 in that Parish ..... wonder if Elizabeth was an older sister?
I've only got an elder brother William bap. 1801, both are the children of Thomas GOLDING m. Elizabeth BROWN in 1790, so it's quite possible?
Sadly I don't have anything on Elizabeth's parents, but in a small place it's a distinct possibility. I've added your information to my card index in the hope that one day I can show a connection. Thanks
Geoffers

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Sadly I don't have anything on Elizabeth's parents, but in a small place it's a distinct possibility. I've added your information to my card index in the hope that one day I can show a connection. Thanks
Geoffers
Hi Geoffers,
Great minds :D think alike! I added your info to my Unrelated Individuals section in Family Tree Maker *just in case*!

All I've got on this family is, William bap. 2 Aug 1801 Kirby-le-Soken, Parents Thomas GOLDING (no dates) m. Elizabeth BROWN (no dates) on 11 May 1790 Kirby-le-Soken.

[dennyg]

Hi Geoffers,
Great minds :D think alike! I added your info to my Unrelated Individuals section in Family Tree Maker *just in case*!

All I've got on this family is, William bap. 2 Aug 1801 Kirby-le-Soken, Parents Thomas GOLDING (no dates) m. Elizabeth BROWN (no dates) on 11 May 1790 Kirby-le-Soken.


HI. THOMAS GOLDING & ELIZABETH BROWN ARE MY GT GT GT "ETC"
GRAND PARENTS. MARRIED IN KIRBY LE SOKEN, ESSEX IN 1790.

I AM AT PRESENT, LOOKING TO TRACE THOMAS GOLDING'S ORIGINS "BEFORE" HE MARRIED IN KIRBY LE SOKEN.

LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR REPLY

DENISE GOLDING

[dennyg]

Hi Geoffers,
I haven't got any LOWE's in my file, but my Sarah GOLDING bap. 20 Nov 1803 Kirby-le-Soken married Thomas GRANT in 1820 in that Parish ..... wonder if Elizabeth was an older sister?

I've only got an elder brother William bap. 1801, both are the children of Thomas GOLDING m. Elizabeth BROWN in 1790, so it's quite possible?

Years ago, I paid someone a fee to look up Sarah's baptism for me and her brother just happened to be on the same page ..... trouble is, I can't remember the name of the researcher now! :(

----------------------------------------------------------------------

HI. THOMAS GOLDING & ELIZABETH BROWN ARE MY GT GT GT "ETC"
GRAND PARENTS. MARRIED IN KIRBY LE SOKEN IN 1790.

I AM AT PRESENT LOOKING TO FIND THE ORIGINS OF THOMAS GOLDING "BEFORE" HE MARRIED IN KIRBY LE SOKEN.

LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR REPLY

DENISE GOLDING

[R A KING]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

HI. THOMAS GOLDING & ELIZABETH BROWN ARE MY GT GT GT "ETC"
GRAND PARENTS. MARRIED IN KIRBY LE SOKEN IN 1790.

I AM AT PRESENT LOOKING TO FIND THE ORIGINS OF THOMAS GOLDING "BEFORE" HE MARRIED IN KIRBY LE SOKEN.

LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR REPLY

DENISE GOLDING

Hello
I noticed you message as I live in Kirby Cross adjacent to Kirby-le-Soken i would be happy to have a wander in the church grounds and see if there are any graves for the Golding family if you have not already done this. regards Rosemary

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

HI. THOMAS GOLDING & ELIZABETH BROWN ARE MY GT GT GT "ETC"
GRAND PARENTS. MARRIED IN KIRBY LE SOKEN IN 1790.

I AM AT PRESENT LOOKING TO FIND THE ORIGINS OF THOMAS GOLDING "BEFORE" HE MARRIED IN KIRBY LE SOKEN.

LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR REPLY

DENISE GOLDING

Hi Denise,

I've only read this thread today, as it appeared in my New Posts. For some reason, your message didn't turn up in my inbox in August, as my usual 'subscribed threads' do.

A contact gave me the names of seven children altogether, for Thomas & Elizabeth GOLDING, as I only had two originally.

Unfortunately, I have no further information for the said Thomas's origins before his marriage.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hello
I noticed you message as I live in Kirby Cross adjacent to Kirby-le-Soken i would be happy to have a wander in the church grounds and see if there are any graves for the Golding family if you have not already done this. regards Rosemary

Hi Rosemary,

I'm sure that Denise will be delighted with your offer, when she checks in next time. If you happen to find any graves, will you let me know as well please?

If you happen to trip over any graves for GRANT's whilst you're looking, that would be a bonus for me ........ seeing as they're all still alive in my file! :D

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Sadly I don't have anything on Elizabeth's parents, but in a small place it's a distinct possibility. I've added your information to my card index in the hope that one day I can show a connection. Thanks
Geoffers

Hi Geoffers,

Since our last messages of three years ago, :eek: a contact informed me that my Sarah GOLDING did have an older sister, named Elizabeth.

No way of knowing if she is the same as 'your' Elizabeth, but if you wish to add her baptism (not verified) to your card index, this is the date:
15 Feb 1792 Kirby-le-Soken.

[Geoffers]

I noticed you message as I live in Kirby Cross adjacent to Kirby-le-Soken i would be happy to have a wander in the church grounds and see if there are any graves for the Golding family if you have not already done this. regards Rosemary

.............and if you happened to see a grave for Abel Shepherd LOW(E) (1869) and Elizabeth (who was a GOLDING) - and any other LOW(E)s I would be really grateful.............pretty, pretty please.


Hi Geoffers,

Since our last messages of three years ago

Doesn't time fly when you're enjoying yourself


a contact informed me that my Sarah GOLDING did have an older sister, named Elizabeth.

Oooh, that's interesting


No way of knowing if she is the same as 'your' Elizabeth, but if you wish to add her baptism (not verified) to your card index, this is the date:
15 Feb 1792 Kirby-le-Soken

Oooh, that's very interesting. Census returns consistently show her as being born in Kirby about 1791-2 - many thanks, card index amended.

[R A KING]

Hi Denise,

I've only read this thread today, as it appeared in my New Posts. For some reason, your message didn't turn up in my inbox in August, as my usual 'subscribed threads' do.

A contact gave me the names of seven children altogether, for Thomas & Elizabeth GOLDING, as I only had two originally.

Unfortunately, I have no further information for the said Thomas's origins before his marriage.

I went th St Michaels at Kirby-le-Soken this afternoon. The really old graves are quite difficult to get to as surrounded by nettles and overgrowth also a lot have ivy growing into them. I looked as best as I could but did not find any information for you - sorry

[R A KING]

Hi Rosemary,

I'm sure that Denise will be delighted with your offer, when she checks in next time. If you happen to find any graves, will you let me know as well please?

If you happen to trip over any graves for GRANT's whilst you're looking, that would be a bonus for me ........ seeing as they're all still alive in my file! :D

I went th St Michaels at Kirby-le-Soken this afternoon. The really old graves are quite difficult to get to as surrounded by nettles and overgrowth also a lot have ivy growing into them. I looked as best as I could but did not find any information for you - sorry

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Rosemary :)

Thank you so much for trying anyway.

I know the feeling, as Birstall Parish Churchyard in Yorkshire, was absolutely shocking when I went there ...... I couldn't find a thing! Grass knee high, nettles, broken headstones and I nearly joined my ancestors, as I nearly had a few nasty falls!

Cornwall is another matter ...... well maintained and I found lots there, at least in my relevant Parishes.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Oooh, that's very interesting. Census returns consistently show her as being born in Kirby about 1791-2 - many thanks, card index amended.

Hi Geoffers,

I have just found the census returns for your Elizabeth and I noticed that one of her children was named Sarah!

I wish we could prove a connection, seeing as your Elizabeth and my Sarah were living very close to each other. ;)

Elizabeth: CENSUS JUNE 1841 Ref: HO107/338/17/6/6
Dwelling: Quay Lane, Kirby, Essex

My Sarah: CENSUS JUNE 1841 Ref: HO107/338/17/11/16
Dwelling: Lower Street, Kirby, Essex

Elizabeth: CENSUS MARCH 1851 Ref: HO107/1779/301/23
Dwelling: Quay Lane, Kirby, Essex

My Sarah: CENSUS MARCH 1851 Ref: HO107/1779/302/25
Dwelling: Lower Street, Kirby, Essex

Sarah is MANN in this last census ...... but my notorious Frederick GRANT/SALMON/GRANT-SALMON is with her! :D

[Geoffers]

I have just found the census returns for your Elizabeth and I noticed that one of her children was named Sarah!

I wish we could prove a connection, seeing as your Elizabeth and my Sarah were living very close to each other.

Thanks - I'd be very surprised if they weren't related and the date of baptism/estimated years of birth from census correspond. I really need to view the parish registers, Land Tax returns and Tithe survey some time. Unfortunately the last time I asked to purchase a copy of the registers on fiches, I was told by Essex RO that they weren't available for purchase. I'll dig out my notes from 20 years ago and see if they give any more information.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Geoffers :)

I am a very *nosey* so-and-so ......... I had to find out what the relationship would be, if there was a connection, between your Elizabeth and my Sarah.

Miles away! Better than nothing I suppose?

Elizabeth GOLDING b. 1792 would be the 3rd Gt.Gt.Aunt of my husband! |biggrin|

[Geoffers]

The connection to my line is a bit more convoluted. Elizabeth married the nephew of my 5 x gt grandfather.

The daughter, Sarah whom you mentioned, married a chap called Simon Crick, I was in contact with a descendent of theirs a few years ago.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Geoffers :)

Thanks for the info and now for another nosey question!

Have you ever made 'first/new' contact on here, (BG Forums) with someone who is closely connected to your family?

[Geoffers]

Have you ever made 'first/new' contact on here, (BG Forums) with someone who is closely connected to your family?

No. If this is a connection it is the closest I have made here (and it couldn't be to anyone nicer).

I went 22 years reseaching before I found anyone new researching the same family group.

[R A KING]

Hi Rosemary,

I'm sure that Denise will be delighted with your offer, when she checks in next time. If you happen to find any graves, will you let me know as well please?

If you happen to trip over any graves for GRANT's whilst you're looking, that would be a bonus for me ........ seeing as they're all still alive in my file! :D

hello Just remembered a book we have about the Kirby riots and thought I would look to see if any of your names are mentioned. Well it seems that the Grants were very much involved. The riots were in 1830 as result to change in farming practice and to do with the land its seems to be because machines were being brought onto the farms.
The following happened as result of the rioters destroying a thrashing machine.
James GrantAged 30 the son of Thomas and Mary Grant husband of Elizabeth(nee Sallows) and father of mary Grant a baby who was not baptised until after her father had been tranported. james was sentenced to transportation to Tasmania for 14 years .
Thomas Grant Aged 29 the brother of James husband of Sarah (nee Golding) and father of Thomas Grant aged 9. James Grant aged 8 Mary Ann Grant aged 6, Elizabeth Grant aged 4 years. Susan Grant aged 2 years and John Grant a baby who was not baptised until after her father had been tranported. Thomas was sentenced to be transported to Tasmania for 14years.
John Grant Aged 25 the younger brother of James and Thomas. John was not married He was sentence to be tranported to Tasmania for 7 years.
The trial is reported in the Essex Chronicle 17th December 1830.
The Australian Convict Archives (this is all taken from the book)
James Grant Born 1880 married in England with children died? tranported on the Eliza, tried in Essex
John Grant born 1805 married in England died? tranported on the Eliza tried in Essex
Thomas Grant born 1801 married in England with children died? tranported on the Eliza tried in Essex
THE BOOK IS CALLED "THE KIRBY RIOTS" BY MALCOLM BATTY There is not an ISBN number . If you would like a copy I will try to get one locally for you.
Thought you would be interested in this.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Thought you would be interested in this.

Hi Rosemary :)

In a word ....... |woohoo| My husband and I are over the moon about all this information, thank you so much for posting your message. If you can manage to find a copy of the book, that would be great ....... I could send you a cheque for it, plus postage and packing of course.

It's a shame that my father-in-law is no longer with us, as he would be tickled pink! His mother was such a snobby so-and-so (his words) and she would have hated this scandal! |jumphappy

I am very pleased to find out that Thomas GRANT, bap. 07 Sep 1800, Kirby (my husband's 3xGt.Grandfather) had two brothers I knew nothing about, i.e. James & John. Their parents were Thomas GRANT m. Mary PURKIS on 30 Oct 1791, Kirby. Not being able to access any records, I paid someone to look up a few things for me at the CRO ....... but only for the direct line. A friend did look at Essex CRO, for a burial for Thomas, after I found the following census ........ now I know why he couldn't find one! ;)

CENSUS JUNE 1841 Ref: HO107/338/17/11/16
Dwelling: Lower Street, Kirby, Essex

Sarah GRANT (36) Washwoman b. In County
Susan GRANT (13) b. In County
Jno. GRANT (11) b. In County
William GRANT (6) b. In County
__________________________________________

It looks like Sarah was a *naughty* girl too in respect of the William in the census. I know he may not be her son, as relationships aren't given, but her daughter, Mary Ann GRANT (my husband's 2xGt.Grandmother) had three children out of wedlock. I make no wonder that her son, Frederick was such a 'wide boy' ........ even he had a second illegal marriage!

A friend of mine visits Colindale about twice a year, so I shall ask her to see if she can find out any trial details in the Essex Chronicle.

|bowdown|Thank you so much, again.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

If this is a connection it is the closest I have made here (and it couldn't be to anyone nicer).



You may want to have a re-think about that Geoffers ....... a family full of thieves, rogues and vagabonds! :D

[Astoria]

:D Glad you are having such a good day.

[oxon57]

And it's about to get better, Diane - I had a feeling there was something familiar about the name "Malcolm Batty".

Personally, I would get the book if possible, on principle - I don't know about you, but I do like to have books, things found online have a habit of disappearing.

However, while you are waiting to see if Rosemary can obtain a copy, Malcolm Batty is evidently someone writing for pleasure rather than profit, and has kindly put it online on his website:
http://www.battym.freeserve.co.uk/kirbyriot.htm

I assume, as it doesn't say otherwise, that's the full text - it includes the report in the Essex Chronicle that was referred to.

[oxon57]

Just thumbing through the rest of the site, found on another page...
"A full hardcopy version with illustrations and maps is available for £5. Contact Malcolm by e-mail for details."
So I guess it's the full *text* - but the book will give you something extra.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

How funny ...... I just popped back here to tell Rosemary about that link! :)

I've just read it (and found some extra children too!) :D but I didn't know about the link to the book ...... thanks for that.

I'll write to him and order a copy of the book, as that's much nicer to have, as you point out.

Thank you again to Rosemary and to you of course! |bowdown|

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Just thumbing through the rest of the site, found on another page...
"A full hardcopy version with illustrations and maps is available for £5. Contact Malcolm by e-mail for details."
So I guess it's the full *text* - but the book will give you something extra.

I'm so sorry, but I can't find it! :confused:
Will you give me a link to that bit please? :)

[oxon57]

Certainly.
I found the actual text that I quoted on his "the sokens" page:
http://www.battym.freeserve.co.uk/sokenindex.html
but that doesn't give you the e-mail address itself - that can be found on his homepage:
http://www.battym.freeserve.co.uk/index.html

I won't put it on here or he will doubtless be deluged with spam.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

I know why I couldn't find it now! :o

As mentioned in a previous message of mine, I found the Kirby Riots pages on the web site ...... then I came here to post the same link to them, as yours.

However, at first, I googled Kirby Riots and I clicked this link:

http://www.frinton.org/history/

then I clicked on the link to Malcolm's web site, which is just under the picture, at the top of the page.

When you mentioned a link to get to his email address, it was on the above site I was looking for it! |dunce2|

Thanks once again to you ....... I shall be writing to Malcolm later on today, as I would like to purchase 5 copies of this little book. One for my husband and the other four for his siblings ...... although I'll have to print out a direct line Ancestor chart for each of them, to send with the book, otherwise they won't have a clue who Thomas GRANT is! |biggrin|

I shall also push my luck and ask Malcolm if he will give permission to me, to copy those pages into my computer, as a back-up precaution of the info ..... just in case! ;)

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

On Malcolm's *Kirby Riots* pages, towards the end, he mentions Sarah GRANT again and how much she would have struggled, without Thomas. No known death date is listed for Thomas, but the info below is from my file:

Sarah GRANT m. William MANN on 09 July 1841, Kirby-le-Soken
William MANN, bachelor of this parish, & Sarah GRANT of this parish, widow. Banns published May 23rd/30th/June 6th.

I'm pasting two census returns next, as I have to start tracking two Williams' now! ;)

CENSUS JUNE 1841 Ref: HO107/338/17/11/16
Dwelling: Lower Street, Kirby, Essex

Sarah GRANT (36) Washwoman b. In County
Susan GRANT (13) b. In County
Jno. GRANT (11) b. In County
William GRANT (6) b. In County
__________________________________________

CENSUS MARCH 1851 Ref: HO107/1779/302/25
Dwelling: Lower Street, Kirby, Essex

Sarah MANN (49) Head Widow b. Kirby, Essex
Mary GRANT (27) Daughter Single b. Kirby, Essex
John GRANT (20) Son Single Mariner b. Kirby, Essex
William MANN (13) Son b. Kirby, Essex
Arthur MANN (8) Son b. Kirby, Essex
Arthur GRANT (7) Grandson b. Kirby, Essex *
Ellen GRANT (4) Grandaughter b. Kirby, Essex *
Frederick GRANT (1) Grandson b. Kirby, Essex *

* Children of Mary Ann GRANT
___________________________________________

William MANN aged 13, was born before the marriage date, so fair enough ..... but who is the William GRANT aged 6 in 1841 Census? |banghead|

[oxon57]

Her illegitimate son by God-knows who - he is mentioned by Malcolm if you read all the notes at the tail end.
"In the parish record of Kirby, in 1836 Sarah Grant had her son, William, baptised."

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

I'm sorry, :o I didn't make things clear enough when I typed these two sentences:

I'm pasting two census returns next, as I have to start tracking two Williams' now!
William MANN aged 13, was born before the marriage date, so fair enough ..... but who is the William GRANT aged 6 in 1841 Census?

I did read the section about William GRANT being baptised at Kirby, so I knew then that he was Sarah's son, on the 1841 census. I meant *by tracking two Williams' now* ...... that I was wondering if William MANN in the 1851 census, is one and the same person as William GRANT in the 1841 census? Ages slightly awry, but if Sarah *changed* his surname on the 1851 census, seeing as she had married his father later? Rather than her having two children out of wedlock?

I have been accessing the census returns today, (process of elimination) and I've had no success in finding a suitable candidate for this particular William GRANT. William MANN's ages vary on them, twice they would cover a birth in 1837, twice they would cover a birth in 1835 and the 1901 as a birth in 1836, (ages all approximately of course).

[R A KING]

Hi Rosemary :)


In a word ....... |woohoo| My husband and I are over the moon about all this information, thank you so much for posting your message. If you can manage to find a copy of the book, that would be great ....... I could send you a cheque for it, plus postage and packing of course.

It's a shame that my father-in-law is no longer with us, as he would be tickled pink! His mother was such a snobby so-and-so (his words) and she would have hated this scandal! |jumphappy

I am very pleased to find out that Thomas GRANT, bap. 07 Sep 1800, Kirby (my husband's 3xGt.Grandfather) had two brothers I knew nothing about, i.e. James & John. Their parents were Thomas GRANT m. Mary PURKIS on 30 Oct 1791, Kirby. Not being able to access any records, I paid someone to look up a few things for me at the CRO ....... but only for the direct line. A friend did look at Essex CRO, for a burial for Thomas, after I found the following census ........ now I know why he couldn't find one! ;)

CENSUS JUNE 1841 Ref: HO107/338/17/11/16
Dwelling: Lower Street, Kirby, Essex

Sarah GRANT (36) Washwoman b. In County
Susan GRANT (13) b. In County
Jno. GRANT (11) b. In County
William GRANT (6) b. In County
__________________________________________

It looks like Sarah was a *naughty* girl too in respect of the William in the census. I know he may not be her son, as relationships aren't given, but her daughter, Mary Ann GRANT (my husband's 2xGt.Grandmother) had three children out of wedlock. I make no wonder that her son, Frederick was such a 'wide boy' ........ even he had a second illegal marriage!

A friend of mine visits Colindale about twice a year, so I shall ask her to see if she can find out any trial details in the Essex Chronicle.

|bowdown|Thank you so much, again.

:)I am so pleased that this has helped you with your research. I get as much pleasure finding out things for others as I do with my own research. I would love for some-one one day to surprise me with some interesting information.

[oxon57]

I'm sorry, I didn't make things clear enough when I typed these two sentences
No need to apologise - after Rosemary's revelation, I expect that "rather excited" would be an understatement and you're all flustered at the moment - not just Thomas, but two of his brothers too!

As to the question of whether William Grant and William Mann are the same person, I can't really answer that, I could only guess and say "probably". As we do now have a baptism year for William Grant, and later census ages for William Mann seem to point to this as much as they do to a later William, I expect the 1851 entry will turn out to be plain wrong.

Furthermore, if they are not the same, where is three year-old William Mann in 1841? I haven't looked at the 1841, but I take it you have, and presumably the future husband doesn't have a young William with him so the boy on the 1851 is genuinely Sarah's not a "son" who she's inherited?
They are both called William, and Sarah was not one of those awkward women who make life difficult for us by being too ashamed of her illegitimate child(ren) to go along to church - she's happily had William baptised in 1836.
So, if there is a later William too, you should find (a) a burial for the first one, and (b) a baptism for the second one, either as Grant again or, if a few porkies were told, or the baptism took place after she'd remarried, as Mann.

While you couldn't pin the blame on him for certain, it's quite possible, of course, that William Mann was the father of the 1836 William. The Grant brothers may have been given a free ticket to warmer climes, but it gets very cold in the winter in that part of Essex, the wind from the North Sea cuts your legs off as soon as you step outside the door - a lady needs a fellow in for the winter at least, and she may well have been "half living" with William long before, in the (presumed) absence of any news from Tasmania, she decided she was a widow. It may be significant that only one of the pre-marriage children has been given the Mann name on the 1851 - she has not, as is often the case, renamed the whole family on acquiring another partner, the other two are still Grant, aren't they? So if, when you get the opportunity to get at the Parish Register, you find that there is indeed only one William, he's a strong suspect as the father, I would think.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

I did look for William MANN in the 1841 census, but I couldn't find one who didn't belong to a household, or one with a single adult, named William.

Unfortunately, I can't access the Parish Records at the moment, but I live in hope!

On a lighter note, in respect of the weather report ........ I prefer the cold of Essex, to the terrible heat of Tasmania! :)

[R A KING]

How funny ...... I just popped back here to tell Rosemary about that link! :)

I've just read it (and found some extra children too!) :D but I didn't know about the link to the book ...... thanks for that.

I'll write to him and order a copy of the book, as that's much nicer to have, as you point out.

Thank you again to Rosemary and to you of course! |bowdown|

Hello Diane
|book2|I have just got a book out of the library on Essex People 1750-1900 and its mentions the background to the Kirbys Riots - I have scanned the page and sent it to you separately - except I don't know how to|blush|
I thought I just had to click on your name - what do I do?

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Rosemary :)

Sorry for the delay in replying to your message, but I had no internet connection at all, from last Saturday until yesterday afternoon ........ I was in limbo between two ISP's!

Thank you for scanning the page for me ....... could you upload it to a Photobucket account, then just copy and paste the url link to it, into a message on here?

[SamiW]

Hi Geoffers
I'm not sure if you're still watching this thread, but I came across this site when I googled 'John Lowe born in Kirby, Essex'.
I was interested to see your Abel Shepherd Lowe 1787 - 1869, as the John Lowe I am trying to trace had a brother called Albert Shepherd Lowe born c1865.
I was just wondering if you had any further info on the Lowe's descendants, as I have rather come to a dead end trying to tract the correct John Lowe back to Kirby.
Hope you read this some day!
Best
Sami

[Geoffers]

I was interested to see your Abel Shepherd Lowe 1787 - 1869, as the John Lowe I am trying to trace had a brother called Albert Shepherd Lowe born c1865.

Welcome to the forums.

What do you know of your John and Albert Shepherd Lowe?

Where were they both born?

When was John Lowe born?

Have you found them in any census returns?

From teh marriage and/or birth certificates of them, who were their parents?

[SamiW]

It's mainly guesswork I'm afraid.
I have a Samuel Robert Lowe born c. 1864 in Stepney Middlesex.
On his marriage certificate in 1885 it shows his father as John Lowe, shipwright.
I think I have found Samuel Robert on the 1871 census, though it shows him born in Limehouse rather than Stepney, with an older brother Frederick born c. 1859, mother Maryann born c.1834 (no father), & 2 Younger brothers Albert & Francis. The only John Lowe that I can find in the 1871 census, whose birth date and place match, is in prison at Stourbridge, Worcestershire!

Hoping that this is the correct Samuel Robert, in the 1861 census there is a family
John Head born c.1822 Kirby, Essex
Maryann born c. 1833 Ratcliff, Middlesex
John J born c. 1857 Ratcliff, Middlesex
Frederick W. born c. 1859 Limehouse Middlesex

I then found three of the brothers on the FreeBMD site (though not Samuel Robert), and this is where I found that younger brother Albert was registered as Albert Shepherd, born 21st April 1865 in Stepney, Mile End.
I've not actually applied for birth certificates, as it was Samuel Robert I was interested in, and I couldn't find his birth details.
I also couldn't find a record of John and Maryann's marriage.
So as you can see it is rather a lot of conjecture, but I was intrigued by the coincidences of the Kirby birth place, and giving one of his son's Shepherd as a middle name.
What do you think? Could they be descendents of your Kirby Lowes?
Best
Sami

[SamiW]

Hi Geoffers
Following my last posting, I have just found a possible birth for Samuel Robert - but as Low rather than Lowe. So I've sent off for the certificate to see a) if it's the correct one, and b) who his parents were.
Will let you know, if you think it is of any interest to you.
Best
Sami

[Geoffers]

I have a Samuel Robert Lowe born c. 1864 in Stepney Middlesex. On his marriage certificate in 1885 it shows his father as John Lowe, shipwright.

Who were the witnesses to the marriage?


I think I have found Samuel Robert on the 1871 census, though it shows him born in Limehouse rather than Stepney, with an older brother Frederick born c. 1859, mother Maryann born c.1834 (no father)

If I have the same entry it records:
RG10/558 f44 p10
64 Heath St, Mile End
Maryann LOWE, head, widow, 37, tailoress, bn Limehouse
Frederick Lowe, son, 12, bn Limehouse
Samuel Lowe, son, 7, bn Limehouse
Albert Lowe, son, 4, bn Limehouse
Francis Lowe, son, 2, bn Limehouse.


Hoping that this is the correct Samuel Robert, in the 1861 census there is a family John Head born c.1822 Kirby, Essex

Ths is presumably RG9/294 f92 p3
11, Church Park, Mile End
John LOWE, hd, mar, 39, Seaman, bn Kirby, Essex
Maryann Lowe, wf, mar, 28, trouser maker, bn Ratcliff
John J Lowe, son, 4, bn Ratcliff
Frederick W Lowe, son, 2, bn Stepney.

The father's occupation and other detail are consistent to suggest it is a likely match to the 1871 census entry.

If that is the case, then this death may be connected;

GRO Index
Sep 1869
LOWE, John, aged 46, Mile End Vol 1c Page 424


I was intrigued by the coincidences of the Kirby birth place, and giving one of his son's Shepherd as a middle name.
What do you think? Could they be descendents of your Kirby Lowes?
Best

It's certanly possible, my information is on a different computer being used by one of my sons for homework so I'll have to get back to you later.

There was more than one LOW(E) family in Kirby and the area. There was my sibling line who migrated to the parish and the local family who came from Essex.

Regarding your later posting:


I have just found a possible birth for Samuel Robert - but as Low rather than Lowe. So I've sent off for the certificate to see a) if it's the correct one, and b) who his parents were.

The variation in spelling is very common, please do let me know what you get with the certificate. I'll let you know if I come up with owt from browing my records.

[SamiW]

Who were the witnesses to the marriage?

Not easy to read, but the witnesses look like:
Alfred Edward Edras
Alice Mary Strak

If I have the same entry it records:
RG10/558 f44 p10
64 Heath St, Mile End
Maryann LOWE, head, widow, 37, tailoress, bn Limehouse
Frederick Lowe, son, 12, bn Limehouse
Samuel Lowe, son, 7, bn Limehouse
Albert Lowe, son, 4, bn Limehouse
Francis Lowe, son, 2, bn Limehouse.

Yes that is the one I found.


this death may be connected;

GRO Index
Sep 1869
LOWE, John, aged 46, Mile End Vol 1c Page 424

That certainly is more likely, as Maryann is shown as Head of family in 1871, not as wife (with husband in prison!)


The variation in spelling is very common, please do let me know what you get with the certificate. I'll let you know if I come up with owt from browing my records.

Thanks so much for taking the time to go into all this with me.
Best
Sami

[Geoffers]

I have a possible baptism for your chap:

Kirby-le-Soken Parish Register
2 Oct 1823 John LOWE son of John, a labourer and Elizabeth.

The problem being that I don't know of any connection to my own research.

In case it links up at anytime.......

William LOWE was born in Buxton as was his brother Abel Shepherd LOWE.
They were the sons of William LOW(E) by his first wife Sarah SHEPHERD.

William LOWE married at Kirby 30th Dec 1810 to Elizabeth ANNIS - he returned to Buxton with his family.
Abel Sheperd LOWE married at Kirby 29 Sep 1817 to Elizabeth GOLDING - he stayed in Essex with his family.

[SamiW]

Thanks Geoffers for the possible baptism of John Lowe.
It still seems too much of a coincidence for the 'Shepherd' name to pop up in two Lowe families, both originating in Kirby - I shall have to keep digging! (Is there a graveyard at Kirby church? Ha! Ha!)

[Geoffers]

Thanks Geoffers for the possible baptism of John Lowe.
It still seems too much of a coincidence for the 'Shepherd' name to pop up in two Lowe families, both originating in Kirby

That is of course if the Albert Shepherd LOWE birth that you found does relate to your family. Don't forget that up to the mid-1870s not all births were registered and Low(e) is a name that occurs quite frequently.

Fingers crossed that the birth certificate is for your chap.

[SamiW]

Well, the birth certificate shows Samuel Robert's father as John, a Seaman (Merchant Service), and mother as Mary Ann, formally Thurston - so that ties in with the families we found in the 1861 & 1871 censuses.
I have also found a marriage for John & Mary Ann on FreeBMD, so I've sent off for that to see who John's father was.
Still no link to your William & Abel though, unless he is the son of John, the brother, married to Elizabeth, who had a child before returning to Buxton?
What do you think?
Best
Sami

[Geoffers]

Well, the birth certificate shows Samuel Robert's father as John, a Seaman (Merchant Service), and mother as Mary Ann, formally Thurston - so that ties in with the families we found in the 1861 & 1871 censuses.

Aha THURSTON, there might possibly be a distant connection - though I have not explored this line much so I don't know where it may be.........

William LOW and Elizabeth SHPEHERD had a son, Abel Shepherd LOWE (1787-1869).

He married Elizabeth GOLDING.

This couple had a daughter Sarah Ann LOWE in 1826 (bn Kirby)

Sarah Ann LOWE married Simon CRICK.

Simon CRICK and Sarah Ann had daughter Selina CRICK and she married Samuel THURSTON (1840-1891) and I understand that couple lived in East London.

So, if there is a connection it is tenuous, but it may possibly be worth exploring?


I have also found a marriage for John & Mary Ann on FreeBMD, so I've sent off for that to see who John's father was.

Excellent, I'd be interested to read what that records.


Still no link to your William & Abel though, unless he is the son of John, the brother, married to Elizabeth, who had a child before returning to Buxton?

John and Elizabeth migrated to Lincolnshire, they did have a son called John, but he was baptised in Buxton and moved up to Lincolnshire - some of their gadding about can be read in this thread (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7119).

[SamiW]

Hi Geoffers
Well, the marriage certificate shows John Lowe's father to be Abel Lowe! Could this be the Abel Shepherd Lowe whose name first caught my attention?!
John Lowe married Mary Ann Thurston 11th July 1855 in the Parish Church of St. Giles in the Fields, Middlesex. He was 30, she was 22. The witness were G. Green and M.A. Thurston.
Do you have any details on the births of Abel S. Lowe's children?
Best
Sami

[Geoffers]

My apologies - I missed this reply.


Well, the marriage certificate shows John Lowe's father to be Abel Lowe!

Very interesting. I wonder if the parish register incorrectly records John as the son of John?


Could this be the Abel Shepherd Lowe whose name first caught my attention?!

I only know of the one and that is he.


John Lowe married Mary Ann Thurston 11th July 1855 in the Parish Church of St. Giles in the Fields, Middlesex. He was 30, she was 22. The witness were G. Green and M.A. Thurston.

I shall try to remember where I filed the information on the Thurston family that I received some years ago.


Do you have any details on the births of Abel S. Lowe's children?


There was Mary Ann bapt 5 Dec 1817; James bapt 19 Oct 1819 - both children of Abel a labourer and Elizabeth.

The 1841 census shows Betsey bn c.1820, Sarah bn c.1825, Eliza bn c.1827 (though 1841 census does not include relationships; Betsey is shown as a daughter in the 1851 census).

There is is a bapt for Robert on 11 Jan 1830 son of Abel, a labourer and Elizabeth.