Gray & Waterfield Roma Family ties

[Rico]

I'm seeking any help & information regarding the Gray & Waterfield families who are both of well known Roma families.

I am searching for information for the parentage of a Lavinia Waterfield who married Henry Gray. Henry was christened 14th Feb' 1851,East Winch, Norfolk, England & was the son of Robert Gray & Sarah Harris of Cambridge.

Also, Henry's sister, Margaret Gray, b. 1842, married in the mid 1860's a Joseph Waterfield, b. 1838 Tittleshall Cum-Godwick, Norfolk, England, parents unknown.

Lavinia or Joseph Waterfield one could suspect were probably at least close kin if not siblings, being that they married repspectively Henry & Margaret Gray who were siblings & that such family inter connections were quite the norm' amongst Roma families.

Rico

[Rico]

Another family connection between the Gray & Waterfield families is through Joseph Waterfield & Margaret Grays son Job Waterfield, b. 1881 in Shereford, Norfolk, England.

Job Waterfield married 7th May 1902 in Swainsthorpe, Norfolk, England, a Susannah Ellen Sellers, b. 1882 Front Row HIghgate, Kings Lynn, Norfolkshire, England.

Suannah Sellers parents were Richard Sellers & Matilda Gray of whom I have no further information.

I am curious as to how & where Matilda Gray fits into the Gray family tree & I would appreciate any help or information regarding her parents or Gray familiy ties.

Job Waterfields grandparents (Margarets parents) were Robert Gray & Sarah Harris. This Robert Gray being the son of another Robert Gray b. circa 1775 Cambridgeshire, England, & Mary Leighton, b. 1777 Isleham, Cambridge, England, (both my direct Gray ancestors)Mary being the daughter of William Leighton & Mary Torrington.

Of Sarah Harris I have only that she was born circa. 1804 in Swainsthorpe, Norfolk, England, parents unknown. The Harris family is another well known Roma family & I would suspect Sarah's parents/family once identified would have many other ties to the Gray family also.

Rico

[olliecat]

I am searching for information for the parentage of a Lavinia Waterfield who married Henry Gray. Henry was christened 14th Feb' 1851,East Winch, Norfolk, England & was the son of Robert Gray & Sarah Harris of Cambridge.


Is this Henry Gray and Lavinia in the 1901 census?

1901: RG13; Piece: 1830; Folio: 32; Page: 26.
2 Caravans, Cawston Road, Aylsham, Norfolk
GRAY, Henry 59, head, Horse Dealer (Travelling), East Winch Norfolk
GRAY, Lavina 40, wife, Bedford
GRAY, Lavina 22, dau
GRAY, Thomas 18, son
GRAY, Fanny H 9, dau
GRAY, Charles 7, son
GRAY, Ralph 3, son
GRAY, Job 1, grandson
WATERFIELD, Pooley 20, son in law
WATERFIELD, Roddy 18, step son
WATERFIELD, Sissy 15, step dau
WATERFIELD, Lettie 14, step dau

I can also see a Lavinia WATERFIELD in the 1881 census with a husband called Pooley WATERFIELD.
RG11; Piece: 1931; Folio: 25; Page: 43

Going by the 1901 census, I would suspect that WATERFIELD is not Lavinia's maiden name. I couldn't find a marriage between a Henry GRAY and a Lavinia WATERFIELD. There is a marriage in the index in 1890 in Norfolk for a Henry GRAY and one of the spouses listed is Lavinia LOVERIDGE.

[olliecat]

There is a marriage in the index in 1890 in Norfolk for a Henry GRAY and one of the spouses listed was a Lavinia LOVERIDGE.

On checking Family Search, here are some of the marriage details.

groom's name: Henry Gray
groom's birth date: 1852
groom's age: 38
bride's name: Lavinia Loveridge
bride's birth date: 1859
bride's age: 31
marriage date: 15 Sep 1890
marriage place: Sharrington, Norfolk, England
groom's father's name: Robert Gray
bride's father's name: Hookey Loveridge

[Rico]

Hi Olliecat,

Thanks for the quick reply, you caught me unprepaired for such a speedy response.

I believe it more than likely is the same Henry & Lavinia (Waterfield) Gray. This census 1901 Henry Gray's age is stated as 59 which makes him born around 1842 while the Henry Gray I have is recorded as being born 1851 & christened 14th Feb' 1851,East Winch, Norfolk, England, making him 50 years of age in 1901. By memory I have copies of Henry's certificates. Then again this is nothing unusual for Roma as far as exact details go.

I have the same Pooley Waterfield in my data, I believe born around 1855 in Little Cressingham, Norfolk, England who married a Levinia ? Pooley also had a younger brother named Walter Pooley, b. 1857 Lynn, Norfolk, England, but I do not know their parents or have any further information I can substantiate as yet.

Yes, I share your thoughts that Levinia's maiden name may not have been Waterfield & she may well have been the prior wife of Pooley Waterfield but I can't substantiate this any futher as yet. To add some further weight to this Henry Grayy was prior married to a Sarah ? before Levinia came on the scene.

Many thanks again for your fast reply Olliecat.

Rico

[Rico]

Hi Olliecat,

As mentioned, your speedy reply caught me unprepared but I've now have had a little time to digest & re-aquaint myself with these Grays & Waterfields.

It does seem that the census & marriage details you pointed out are the one & same Grays & Waterfields as mine. Apart from Henry's given age in 1901 being a tad older, but this again is nothing unusual for Roma people.

When I was looking at the same census details some time back I remember 'Lavina Gray', daughter aged 22 in the 1901 census throwing me into some doubts. This makes her birth approx' 1879 & 11 years before Henry married Levina in 1890.

Is it just a coincidence her name is Lavina ? All the listed step childrens ages coincide with Levina's previous marriage to Pooley Waterfield pre 1890 as does Henry's son Thomas Gray aged 18 in 1901 by Sarah match.

Fanny 9, Charles 7, Ralph 3 1901 census ages match as children born to & after Henry & Lavina's marriage in 1890.

Lavina aged 22 in 1901 just seems a rather odd coincidence to me. I wonder as I have come across before if Henry & Lavina had a relationship going back much further than their marriage date & overlapping prior marriages & that Lavina may have been a result of such ? or, coincendence of name or, simply another lack of detail or error in information they provided for the census ?

But yes, this does appear to be the one & same Henry & Lavina, & Pooley Waterfield.

Rico

[olliecat]

When I was looking at the same census details some time back I remember 'Lavina Gray', daughter aged 22 in the 1901 census throwing me into some doubts. This makes her birth approx' 1879 & 11 years before Henry married Levina in 1890.


I thought I'd look for Henry and Lavinia in the 1891 census. Granted the ages are all over the place (sigh)...

1891: RG12; Piece: 1508; Folio 11; Page 15 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
Caravan 3 & 4, Small Burgh Rd, Stalham, Norfolk
GRAY Henry 36, head, travelling hawker, East Wynch, Norfolk
Levenia 42, wife, Bradford Yorkshire
Lavinia 12, dau, Aylsham Norfolk
Napoleon 9, son, Bintry Norfolk
Adolphe 7, son, Hunworth Norfolk
Rodney 5, son, Cley Norfolk
Silvester 3, dau, Harpley Norfolk
Letitia 1, dau, Gresham Norfolk

This is just after the 1890 marriage. The question being - are all of these Lavinia's children by her previous spouse or do some belong to Henry and his previous spouse? I will see who is with Henry in the 1881 census in a moment and try to work out daughter Lavinia. Since she was recorded under the surname of GRAY rather than WATERFIELD in the 1901 census, I suspect she is Henry's daughter.

[olliecat]

This could be Henry in 1881 (if once again he is disregarding the need to be at all accurate with his age), in which case Lavinia is his daughter.

1881: RG11; Piece: 1930; Folio: 67; Page: 36 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
Aylsham, Norfolk
GRAY, Henry 34, head, basket maker, East Winch, Norfolk
Sarah A. 37, wife, Ingham Norfolk
Henry 5, son, Aylsham, Norfolk
Aldolphus 2, son, Catfield Norfolk
Lavinia, dau, 9 mo, Aylsham, Norfolk

Edit: I've just found Henry GRAY (I think) in the 1911 census. Oh dear! I can post the info but it's even more confusing.

[olliecat]

So far, I can only see one baptism for a child of Henry's (whether by Sarah or later by Lavinia.) From FreeREG ...


Henry GRAY bap. on 28 Dec 1875 at Catfield, Norfolk. Birth date 20 Nov 1875. Parents Henry and Sarah Ann. Father's occupation Traveling Basket Maker. Notes: No Abode Is Listed


There is this marriage between a Henry GRAY and Sarah, but it is purely a guess and may or may not be the right one. Finding a birth certificate for one of the children would be helpful in order to confirm Sarah's maiden name.

groom's name: Henry Grey
groom's birth date: 1850
groom's age: 21
bride's name: Sarah Anne Barter
bride's birth date: 1847
bride's age: 24
marriage date: 18 Sep 1871
marriage place: Deopham, Norfolk, England
groom's father's name: Robert Grey
bride's father's name: James Ward
Note: Sarah's surname is recorded as BAXTER on another record
(Source Family Search)

There is a possible birth in the index for sons Henry Gray in 1875, Adolphus in 1878 and also daughter Lavinia Gray in 1880. It would also be good to find a birth certificate for a GRAY child born to Henry and Lavinia in order to check her maiden name. However, at this moment I can only find this possibility for son Charles ....

Birth Dec 1893 Aylsham 4B 83
GRAY, Charles

[olliecat]

There is this marriage between a Henry GRAY and Sarah, but it is purely a guess and may or may not be the right one.

I just noticed that there are further details of this marriage on FreeREG.

Marriage on 18 Sep 1871 at St. Andrew, Deopham, Norfolk
Henry GREY, 21, bachelor, basket maker, abode Deopham, father Robert GREY, basket maker
Sarah Ann BAXTER, 24, spinster, abode Deopham, father James WARD, labourer.
Witnesses: Henry EVERETT, Elizabeth EVERETT

So, what was the occupation of Henry's father Robert. Does it tie in with basket maker?

[olliecat]

There are also further details on FreeREG of the 1890 marriage of Henry GRAY to Lavinia. It seems I should have checked there first.

Marriage on 15 Sep 1890 at All Saints Sharrington, Norfolk.
Henry GRAY, 38, widower, hawker, abode Sharrington, father Robert GRAY, hawker
Lavinia LOVERIDGE, 31, spinster, abode Sharrington, father Hookey LOVERIDGE, hawker
Witesses: Job Harris BRINKLEY, Maria Alice BRINKLEY

[Rico]

Hi Olliecat,

Yes, Henry's 1st wife Sarah was younger than Henry which fits (albeit by different gaps). Strange enough I remember several times in the past stumbling across a Walter Waterfield Ward in some of my prior research but I couldn't stitch him him anywhere.

Olliecat you have come across a James Ward as Sarah's father, remember that Pooley Waterfield had a brother named Walter Waterfield.

Regarding Pooley Waterfield, he had two siblings in Walter Waterfield b. 1857 b. Lynn, Norfolk, England, & Trienna Waterfiled b. 1863 Easton, Norfolk, England. His mother was Amy Waterfield b. 1817 Tuddenham, Norfolk, England, no husband found as yet.

Just trying to find a common thread with Henry's Sarah's children which were mainly born in Aylsham, &/or Bintree/Bintry Norfolk, where I can find reference for such. Henry, Lavina, Thomas, & Adolphus appear to be constant names popping up for children of Henry & Sarah Gray though their birth years & order of birth vary from census to census as you are well aware of Olliecat. These dates are sure all over the place & causing great confusion in making headway.

Job Waterfield's father Joseph Waterfield (Margaret Gray's husband) may well be an uncle to Pooley Waterfield at a guess but I have yet to find Joseph's Parents.

I much appreciate your beagling around & assistance Olliecat as frustrating as it may be to us both.

Regards
Rico

[olliecat]

I've been on the hunt for Lavinia. The problem is her birth place is Bedford in one census, Bradford in another (I suspect this could have been a mistake for Bedford) and possible Cambridge in the 1911 census. Another problem is estimating her birth date from the later census. Here is one possibility but I'm not convinced yet.

1871: Piece: 1545 Folio: 76 Page: 25
Pork Lane, Cople, Bedfordshire
GREY, Montague, head, unmarried, 37, gipsies, Hertfordshire
LOVERIDGE, Elizabeth, as wife, unmarried, 38, Not Known
LOVERIDGE, Alfred, son, 20 Bedford
LOVERIDGE, Lavinia, dua, 18, Bedford
LOVERIDGE, Spiers, son, 16, Not Known
LOVERIDGE, Charles, son, 14, Not Known
LOVERIDGE, Moses, son, 12, Peterboro
LOVERIDGE, Absalom, son, 10, Peterboro
LOVERIDGE, Stephen, son, 8, Budgen
LOVERIDGE, Jurania, dua, 6, Bedford
LOVERIDGE, Rosanna, dua, 4, Kaiston

Need to look further for her. After some shut-eye. :sleep1:

[olliecat]

Regarding Pooley Waterfield, he had two siblings in Walter Waterfield b. 1857 b. Lynn, Norfolk, England, & Trienna Waterfiled b. 1863 Easton, Norfolk, England. His mother was Amy Waterfield b. 1817 Tuddenham, Norfolk, England, no husband found as yet.


Before heading off for some sleep - if this is Pooley WATERFIELD in the 1881 census with spouse Lavinia, mum Amy and brother Walter...

1881: Piece: 1931 Folio: 25 Page: 43
Caravans On Ling Common, Coltishall
WATERFIELD, Pooley, head, 26, travelling tinman, Little Cressingham Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Lavinia, wife, 24, Bradford Yorkshire
WATERFIELD, Amy, mother, widow, 64 Tuddenham Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Walter, brother, 24, travelling tinman, Lynn Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Trienna, niece, 18, Easton Norfolk

Perhaps this is Pooley WATERFIELD in the 1861 census going under the name Napolean. It just occurred to me that Poley/Pooley could be a logical nickname for Napolean. If so his mum is Amy/Emma and his father William.

1861: Piece: 1237; Folio: 149; Page: 23
In A Caraven, White Horse Street, Shropham, Norfolk
WATERFIELD, William, head, 40, travelling tin plate worker, Warboys Cambridgeshire
WATERFIELD, Amy, wife, 42, Elsing Norfolk
WATERFIELD, John 21, son, Tuddenham Norfolk
WATERFIELD, William 17, son, Ringland Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Charlotte 13, dau, Rockland St Peter Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Maria 10, dau, East Dereham Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Napolean 9, son, Little Cressingham Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Walter 6, son, Lynn Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Trianna 2, dau, Bale Norfolk

1871: RG10; Piece: 1848; Folio: 130; Page: 21
Fakenham Road Caravan, Tittleshall Cum Godwich, Norfolk
WATERFIELD, William, head, 50, travelling tinman, Meeple Cambridgeshire
WATERFIELD, Emma, wife, 51, Cressingham Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Napoleon, son, 17, travelling tinmans son, L. Cressingham Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Walter, son, 15, Kings Lynn Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Tryanna, granddau, 7, Easton Norfolk

(census crown copyright, care of the TNA)

I'm sure there will be lots more to find on the morrow. :smile5:

[Coromandel]

I see olliecat has done sterling work on your main query about Lavinia Waterfield's parentage.:)


Another family connection between the Gray & Waterfield families is through Joseph Waterfield & Margaret Grays son Job Waterfield, b. 1881 in Shereford, Norfolk, England.

Job Waterfield married 7th May 1902 in Swainsthorpe, Norfolk, England, a Susannah Ellen Sellers, b. 1882 Front Row HIghgate, Kings Lynn, Norfolkshire, England.

Suannah Sellers parents were Richard Sellers & Matilda Gray of whom I have no further information.

Is this the right family in 1881?

7 Long Row, Kings Lynn St Margaret
Richard Sellars, head, m., 22, hawker, born Colchester, Essex
Matilda Sellars, wife, m., 23, b. Lincoln, Lincoln[shire]
Richard Sellars, son, 4 mo., b. Kings Lynn, Norfolk

RG 11/1997, f.84, p.2
(from transcript on FamilySearch)

A Richard Sellers married in the Kings Lynn district in the last quarter of 1879. There's a Matilda Gray on the same page. The marriage certificate would be good place to start in your quest for more about their backgrounds.

[geneius]

Hello
As a late comer to this thread, and reference your comment at #13, an alternative!

1871 RG 10 1545 75 24
Park Lane Copley Beds

LOVERIDGEWilliam 18
LOVERIDGE Maria 16
LOVERIDGE Goliath 14
LOVERIDGE Lovinia 12

no other information other than descirbed as gypsies

[geneius]

1901: RG13; Piece: 1830; Folio: 32; Page: 26.
2 Caravans, Cawston Road, Aylsham, Norfolk
GRAY, Henry 59, head, Horse Dealer (Travelling), East Winch Norfolk
GRAY, Lavina 40, wife, Bedford
GRAY, Lavina 22, dau
GRAY, Thomas 18, son
GRAY, Fanny H 9, dau
GRAY, Charles 7, son
GRAY, Ralph 3, son
GRAY, Job 1, grandson
WATERFIELD, Pooley 20, son in law
WATERFIELD, WATERFIELD, Roddy 18, step son
Sissy 15, step dau
WATERFIELD, Lettie 14, step dau

I think you will find that

1) GRAY, Lavina 22, dau: GRAY, Thomas 18, son are children of the marriage Henry GRAY to Sarah

2) GRAY, Fanny H 9, dau :GRAY, Charles 7, son :GRAY, Ralph 3, son are from the marriage of Henry GRAY to Lavinia LOVERIDGE

3) WATERFIELD, Roddy ( Rodney) 18, step son : WATERFIELD, Sissy ( Silvester) 15, step dau: WATERFIELD, Lettie ( Letitia) 14, step dau
are children who regard Lavinia as their stepmother but who have no connection either blood or via marriage to their father.

[geneius]

Death

Naploeon WATERFIELD aged 35 q3 1889 Erpingham Norfolk 4b 49

[Rico]

Yes I agree with Coromandel, Olliecat has done sterling work with this research, many thanks again Olliecat, 'Good on ya mate'.

I still find it extremely frustrating when researching the older bygone Roma folk as far as their disregard for detail & accuracy when providing names, ages, dates & locations etc.. If this was non Roma folk we were researching one would probably at least put such info' on the backburner if not disregard such information & look elsewhere.

Yes, I agree Olliecat, this certainly seems like Pooley/PoleyNapolean Waterfields family that you found.

Perhaps this is Pooley WATERFIELD in the 1861 census going under the name Napolean. It just occurred to me that Poley/Pooley could be a logical nickname for Napolean. If so his mum is Amy/Emma and his father William.

1861: Piece: 1237; Folio: 149; Page: 23
In A Caraven, White Horse Street, Shropham, Norfolk
WATERFIELD, William, head, 40, travelling tin plate worker, Warboys Cambridgeshire
WATERFIELD, Amy, wife, 42, Elsing Norfolk
WATERFIELD, John 21, son, Tuddenham Norfolk
WATERFIELD, William 17, son, Ringland Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Charlotte 13, dau, Rockland St Peter Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Maria 10, dau, East Dereham Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Napolean 9, son, Little Cressingham Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Walter 6, son, Lynn Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Trianna 2, dau, Bale Norfolk

I should have twigged to Pooley/Poley as being Napolean, he was right in front me all this time.

His death would very nicely match with Geneius's find of Naploeon WATERFIELD aged 35 q3 1889 Erpingham Norfolk 4b 49
as Levinia/Lavina married Henry Gray the following year in 15 Sep' 1890.

The next logical question is how William Waterfield father of Pooley/Napolean's b. c. 1855 , is related to Joseph Waterfield b. 1838 Tittleshall Cum-Godwick, Norfolk, England, husband of Margaret Gray & father of Job Waterfield b. 17 Oct' 1881 Shereford, Norfolk, England, who married Susannah Ellen Sellers b. 4 Feb' 1882 Front Row HIghgate, Kings Lynn, Norfolkshire, England, daughet of Richard & Matilda Gray.

The names of Walter, William, Joseph, Job, Sylvester/Silvester, Naplolean, Levinia/Lavina, are coincidently shared by both branches of the Waterfields They both appear to be living & travelling around Norfolk, Lincoln, Cambridge localities.

Coromandels findings of the Sellers family seems to also tick the boxes.
Is this the right family in 1881?

7 Long Row, Kings Lynn St Margaret
Richard Sellars, head, m., 22, hawker, born Colchester, Essex
Matilda Sellars, wife, m., 23, b. Lincoln, Lincoln[shire]
Richard Sellars, son, 4 mo., b. Kings Lynn, Norfolk

Thanks guys
Rico

[olliecat]

The next logical question is how William Waterfield father of Pooley/Napolean's b. c. 1855 , is related to Joseph Waterfield b. 1838 Tittleshall Cum-Godwick, Norfolk, England, husband of Margaret Gray....

To try and answer, William's parents appear to be William and Charlotte...

1851: Piece: 1832; Folio: 94; Page: 18
Methwold, Norfolk
WATERFIELD, William, head, 60, tinker and brasier, Drinkstone Leicestershire
WATERFIELD, Charlote, wife, 57, Brigg Lincolnshire
WATERFIELD, William, son, married, 30, tinker and brasier, Maple Cambridgeshire
WATERFIELD, John, grandson, 12, North Tuddenham Norfolk
WATERFIELD, William, grandson, 7, Ringland Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Charlote, granddau, 4, Rockland Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Maria, granddau, 1 Scarnell Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Amy, daughter in law, 31, North Tuddenham Norfolk

Note: If you search FreeREG you will find baptisms for some of the children of William and Amy. For example, there is one for a Charlotte WATERFIELD bap. on 02 Apr 1847 at Rockland St Peter Norfolk. In the notes section it states that the informant is the grandmother Charlotte Waterfield.
So far have only found one baptism for a child of William WATERFIELD and Charlotte and that's for an Elizabeth bap. 22 Feb 1826 at North Elmham in Norfolk.

Joseph Waterfield is being more elusive in the earlier census. Will have to hunt some more for him.

[geneius]

I should have twigged to Pooley/Poley as being Napolean, he was right in front me all this time.

Birth registratrion:

Poley WATERFIELD q4 1882 Mitford Norfolk 4b 283

Could be shown on 1911 as Holy

died 1959 Wisbech

[olliecat]

Could be shown on 1911 as Holy


I think that could well be him in the 1911 census. Looking at the image the first letter of his name definitely looks like an H. It looks like he did not sign the form but made his mark, indicating he may have been unable to read/write. Good find. :thumbsup:

It appears that the names Poley and Napolean were used interchangeably. One possible baptism for Poley’s son from Family Search...

name: Napoleon Waterfield
baptism/christening date: 27 Oct 1901
baptism/christening place: Reepham, Norfolk, England
father's name: Napoleon Waterfield
mother's name: Elizabeth Waterfield

[geneius]

Witesses: Job Harris BRINKLEY, Maria Alice BRINKLEY

I went off on this trail..........

Job Harris BRINKLEY b 1863 Ely Cambs
Married Maria Alice MARTIN 1884 Mitford 4B 482
1881 West Rudham Norfolk travelling Van
RG 11 1992 133 18
Camped together
BRINKLEY Sidney 67 b 1814 Wellen Hertfordshire -Norfolk travellers
BRINKLEY Mariah. 67 b 1814 Cambridgeshire
BRINKLEY Job 18 b 1863 Cambridgeshire -hawker
------------------
GRAY William Gray 41 b 1840 Norfolk hawker
GRAY Slyvesta. 30 b 1851 Cambridgeshire -wife
GRAY Beatrice .12 b 1869 Norfolk
---------------------------------------------
BRINKLEY Johnathan 40 b 1841 Hawker Cambridgeshire
BRINKLEY Elizabeth 36 b 1845 Suffolk
BRINKLEY Ambrose 18 b 1863 Suffolk
BRINKLEY Mary Ann 15 b 1866 Suffolk
BRINKLEY John 11 b 1870 Cambridgeshire
BRINKLEY Reshova 7 b 1874 Norfolk
BRINKLEY William 3 b 1878 Norfolk
========================================

1871 Mileham Norfolk
RG 10 1848 146 25
Read Lane ‘Persons in Tent’
Camped together
SMITH Isaiah 49 Brazier Gloomfield Essex
SMITH Emalia 46 Wickham Suffolk
---------------------------------------------------
BRINKLEY Sidney 57 Brazier ‘Welling’ Welwyn Herts
BRINKLEY Maud 57 Lillingotn Cambs
BRINKLEY Job 31 m Cambs
BRINKLEY Elizabeth 29 Cambs
BRINKLEY Mirial 26 D in Law Cambs
BRINKLEY Johanathan 28 Brazier Staffs Bilston
BRINKLEY Lydia 27 D in Law Cambs
BRINKLEY Ambrose 8 Wootton Norfolk
BRINKLEY Mary Ann 6 Lynn Norfolk
BRINKLEY Jonathan 1 y 3 m Pembye Cambs
BRINKLEY William 20 Brazier St James Lincs
BRINKLEY Sidney 18 Harpley Norfolk
BRINKLEY Ruben 16 Dullingham Cambs
BRINKLEY Enna 13 Perran Wood Cambs
BRINKLEY Job 7 Addington Cambs
----------------------------------------------------------------
GRAY Allis head 1851 widow tinswoman Norwich Norfolk
GRAY Mary A 1861 dau Knapton Norfolk
GRAY William 1850 son Ipsish Essex
GRAY Mary Ann 1867 dau Molston Kent
------------------------------
SOUTH Sharlot 1829 widow tinswoman Dirkelboro Norfolk
BIRT Sharlet dau widow 1847 tiswoman Corringham Norfolk
BIRT Aruther son 1865 Bukells Suffolk
BIRT Angelina dau 1867 Bradley
BIRT Walter son 1 St Sasbury Essex
----------------------------------
ORSBORN Datiel 1836 Belt Bottle Bucks
ORSBORN Susan 1841 Letham Cambs
ORSBORN Samuel 1865 Norwich Norolk
ORSBORN George 1867 Addington Kent
ORSBORN Alfred 1871 3m Oilscan Norfolk
ORSBORN Persham 10m Norfolk

==================================

Matilda GRAY could be the daughter of Sam(p)son & Caroline GRAY

[olliecat]

Looks like a good trail geneius. My Joseph WATERFIELD trail is not leading anywhere much yet. This is where I am with him.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

I won't post all the census details for Joseph WATERFIELD and Margaret from 1881 onwards. Suffice it to say that Joseph and Margaret were recorded as being born...

Joseph
1881: abt 1828 Tittleshall, Norfolk
1891: abt 1832 Tittleshall, Norfolk
1901: abt 1831 Tivetshall, Norfolk

Margaret
1881: abt 1842 Stoke, Norfolk
1891: abt 1846 Stoke Ferry, Norfolk
1901: abt 1848 Stoke Ferry, Norfolk
1911: abt 1844 Stoke Ferry, Norfolk
(There is a baptism for Margaret GRAY, 14 Mar 1844 at Stoke Ferry, parents Robert and Sarah)
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

This could be Joseph in the 1861 census.

1861: Piece: 1244; Folio: 76; Page: 32
In a van, Fair Field, Fairstead, North Elmham, Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Joseph, head, married, 26, tinman, N K
WATERFIELD, Mary Ann, wife, married, 27, N K
WATERFIELD, James, son, 5, N K
Note: I've checked for any other WATERFIELDs camping out on the same field

Joseph with Margaret and children in the 1871 census...

1871: Piece: 1849; Folio: 78; Page: 32
At The Fair In Vans Tents & C, North Elmham, Norfolk
WATERFIELD, William, head, married, 20, traveller, Dereham Norfolk
BAGSHAW, William 26, traveller, Marlingford Norfolk
BAGSHAW, ---, 22, traveller, Marlingford Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Ann 20, traveller, Eye Suffolk
WATERFIELD, Margrett, married, 2?, traveller, do
WATERFIELD, John, 14
WATERFIELD, Joseph, 11
WATERFIELD, James, 6
WATERFIELD, Walter, 5
WATERFIELD, Ambrose, 4
WATERFIELD, William, 2
WATERFIELD, Joseph, 34
//
WATERFIELD, Thomas, head, 4?, Wells Norfolk
WATERFIELD, Ann, wife, 39, Luton Bedfordshire

Note: The birth place is 'do' for everyone from Margett to Joseph suggesting Eye in Suffolk. However, this is very likely a mistake on the form.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

I've included the details for Thomas WATERFIELD in the 1871 census as he is in the next household to Joseph and may be related. Since Joseph WATERFIELD just does not want to be found in the 1841/1851 census I've been trailing Thomas in the hope that he leads us somewhere positive. There is also the head William WATERFIELD to try and trace back.

[Rico]

[QUOTE=geneius;500427]I went off on this trail..........

------------------
GRAY William Gray 41 b 1840 Norfolk hawker
GRAY Slyvesta. 30 b 1851 Cambridgeshire -wife
GRAY Beatrice .12 b 1869 Norfolk
---------------------------------------------
William Gray
b. 10 December 1839 - Stoke Ferry, Norfolk, England
christened 1 May 1842 - Stoke Ferry, Norfolk, England
married
Sylvester (Thorpe) Gray
b. 1851 - Burrell, Cambridge, England
daugthter
Beatrice Gray
b. 1851 Norfolk, England

William Gray is the sister of Margaret Gray b. 1842 who married Joseph Waterfield b. 1838. William & Margaret being children of Robert Gray b. 1799 & Sarah Harris b. circa 1804.


Matilda GRAY could be the daughter of Sam(p)son & Caroline GRAY

Possible candidates from my data are -
Sampson Gray b. circa 1830 - Cambridgeshire, England who married Caroline ? They also had a daughter Caroline Gray b. 1852 - Lynn, Cambridgeshire, England, who around 1872 married Israel (Thorpe) Gray b. 1852 - Cottenham, Cambridge, England. Israel being the son of Meshack Gray b. 1814 - Tadlow, Cambridge, England, & Sarah Harris b. circa 1814 - Haydon, Essex, England. Meshak Gray being the grandson of Foundness (Founous/Fowk) Grayb. circa 1737 & died 1828 St Giles, Cambridge, England.

Again the surname 'Harris' pops up.

Rico

[Lesley Day]

Susan Gray d/o Israel and Maria Gray is my 3 x Gt Grandmother bon in Cambridgeshire in 1834. She married Daniel Osborn aka Lamb. Their daughter Patience Osborn "married" John Harris, son of Trinity Mayhew Harris and Mary Ann Wray. Trinity's sister Maria "married" Sydney Brinkley born 1814 Welwyn Hertfordshire and had 11 children around Norfolk.

Charles Gray son of Henry and Lavinia Loveridge are also connected to me. Charles Gray - Beatrice Lamb had ten children around mid Norfolk. Russel Gray born 1920 married my Grandmother's sister Ethel Wray.

The families interconnect with the Pooley's and Brinkley's as you can imagine.

[Lesley Day]

Matilda Gray married Richard Sellers 24 December 1879 at St John's, Kings Lynn her parents were Sampson and Caroline Gray (they died in 1909 in Kings Lynn.

[Lesley Day]

I went off on this trail..........

Job Harris BRINKLEY b 1863 Ely Cambs
Married Maria Alice MARTIN 1884 Mitford 4B 482
1881 West Rudham Norfolk travelling Van
RG 11 1992 133 18
Camped together
BRINKLEY Sidney 67 b 1814 Wellen Hertfordshire -Norfolk travellers
BRINKLEY Mariah. 67 b 1814 Cambridgeshire
BRINKLEY Job 18 b 1863 Cambridgeshire -hawker
------------------
GRAY William Gray 41 b 1840 Norfolk hawker
GRAY Slyvesta. 30 b 1851 Cambridgeshire -wife
GRAY Beatrice .12 b 1869 Norfolk
---------------------------------------------
BRINKLEY Johnathan 40 b 1841 Hawker Cambridgeshire
BRINKLEY Elizabeth 36 b 1845 Suffolk
BRINKLEY Ambrose 18 b 1863 Suffolk
BRINKLEY Mary Ann 15 b 1866 Suffolk
BRINKLEY John 11 b 1870 Cambridgeshire
BRINKLEY Reshova 7 b 1874 Norfolk
BRINKLEY William 3 b 1878 Norfolk
========================================

1871 Mileham Norfolk
RG 10 1848 146 25
Read Lane ‘Persons in Tent’
Camped together
SMITH Isaiah 49 Brazier Gloomfield Essex
SMITH Emalia 46 Wickham Suffolk
---------------------------------------------------
BRINKLEY Sidney 57 Brazier ‘Welling’ Welwyn Herts
BRINKLEY Maud 57 Lillingotn Cambs
BRINKLEY Job 31 m Cambs
BRINKLEY Elizabeth 29 Cambs
BRINKLEY Mirial 26 D in Law Cambs
BRINKLEY Johanathan 28 Brazier Staffs Bilston
BRINKLEY Lydia 27 D in Law Cambs
BRINKLEY Ambrose 8 Wootton Norfolk
BRINKLEY Mary Ann 6 Lynn Norfolk
BRINKLEY Jonathan 1 y 3 m Pembye Cambs
BRINKLEY William 20 Brazier St James Lincs
BRINKLEY Sidney 18 Harpley Norfolk
BRINKLEY Ruben 16 Dullingham Cambs
BRINKLEY Enna 13 Perran Wood Cambs
BRINKLEY Job 7 Addington Cambs
----------------------------------------------------------------
GRAY Allis head 1851 widow tinswoman Norwich Norfolk
GRAY Mary A 1861 dau Knapton Norfolk
GRAY William 1850 son Ipsish Essex
GRAY Mary Ann 1867 dau Molston Kent
------------------------------
SOUTH Sharlot 1829 widow tinswoman Dirkelboro Norfolk
BIRT Sharlet dau widow 1847 tiswoman Corringham Norfolk
BIRT Aruther son 1865 Bukells Suffolk
BIRT Angelina dau 1867 Bradley
BIRT Walter son 1 St Sasbury Essex
----------------------------------
ORSBORN Datiel 1836 Belt Bottle Bucks
ORSBORN Susan 1841 Letham Cambs
ORSBORN Samuel 1865 Norwich Norolk
ORSBORN George 1867 Addington Kent
ORSBORN Alfred 1871 3m Oilscan Norfolk
ORSBORN Persham 10m Norfolk

==================================

Matilda GRAY could be the daughter of Sam(p)son & Caroline GRAY

Job Harris Brinkley son of Sidney Brinkley (1814 Welwyn) s/o Job Brinkley & Ann and Maria Harris (1814 Litlington Cambs) d/o Aaron Harris & Elizabeth Williams possible marriage in 1809 Oakington, Cambs. (Start of my Harris line).

[Rico]

Hi Lesley,

Your information adds some extra players to the Gray family jigsaw & some extra weight to some .....questionable persons/relationships.

Do you have any clues as to Caroline Grays father, Sampson Gray, as to who his parents may be ?

I believe Israels parents are
Meshack Gray (b. 1814,Tadlow, Cambridge, England - ?) & Sarah Harris (b. abt 1813, Haydon, Essex, England - ?). I have yet to find Sarah's parents but the Harris family as you would well know interweaves with the Grays through the generations.

Meshacks parents I believe are
William Gray (1776 - 12 May 1844, St Giles, Cambridge, England) who married 9 Aug 1792, Isleham, Cambridge, England, Henrietta (Retty) Gray (b. 1778 -24 Aug 1837, St Giles, Cambridge, England)

Retty Gray's parents being Foundness (Founous/Fowk) Gray c, 1778 - 1828 & Mary ? I presume this would tally with your findings ?

Is Beatrice Lamb somehow related to Daniel Osborn, Aka Lamb ?

Of late I have also been coming across different members of the Wray family who are alos weaving their way amongst the Gray & associated families.

I'm quite interested in Russel Gray & his wife Ethel Wray, your grandmothers sister. Starting with Russel I can go back seven generations of his ancestors. Actually, all that you have supplied is has been of interest to me as your ancestral background one way or another flirts or touches base with mine over & over. Russel Gray for example actually is a blood relation of mine albeit it distantly.

Sadly time today has runout for me Lesley, I thank you for your most interesting input which actually raises many questions you may be able to help me out with or we could arrange to exchange to family information if you wish ?

As our ancestors would have said when signing off

Latcho drom (safe journey)

[Lesley Day]

Hi Rico

Please send me a private message with your email address so I can send you information about all the Traveller families I have.

I dont mind helping you at all seeing as though I am here in the UK. Also there are many questions regarding all Gray's, Wrays, Lambs, Osborne etc!!!!!! It took me 13 years to find out about my Gt Grandfather Saunders Wray who used the name John but they used to call him Duke. His baptism record shows that he was baptised Saunders Lamb! He had 9 siblings in total but two died as infants in 1908 in Grimstone. His parents Trinity Mayhew Harris (who I think is either John Harris s/o of Aaron & Elizabeth and they had Esther 1812, Maria 1814 and George born c 1822 in Litlington, Cambs). They are such a hard bunch to follow these Harris/Grays etc.
Esther, no info on her
Maria = Sidney Brinkley
John (Trinity Mayhew Harris) = Mary Ann Wray born 1834 Boston, Lincolnshire or Cambridgeshire she died in a van on Litcham Common as it went on fire on 22 April 1883. Trinity is buried somewhere in Lyng Parish Church, Norfolk and died 1 Jul 1885. They had seven children:

John William Harris 10 Apr 1854 East Dereham - dont know what happened to him after 1861

George Harris 1856 = Hannah Melton of Whissonsett. He died in Whissonsett in 1896, they had 9 children and living descendants in the area.

John Harris 5 Mar 1859 at Watton, Nfk my 2 x Gt Grandfather = Patience Osborn 1 Apr 1861 Ber St Norwich d/o Daniel Osborn & Susan Gray d/o Israel. They had 10 children:

Daniel Lamb aka Ray 13 May 1883 North Walsham died 1945 East Dereham no marriage?

Golia aka Delia Lamb/Harris 30 Nov 1884 Aylsham = Herbert James Drake of Norwich - three children

Saunders Lamb aka Sidney "Duke" John Wray 5 Dec 1886 Briston, Nfk = Rose Ellen Elliott of Mattishall Burgh (non Romany) - My Gt Grandparents - had 10 children:

Kathleen Rose Elliott 1917 = John Samuel Halsey
Ethel F Wray born 1920 and still alive in East Dereham = Russell Gray 1920 Swaffham died Aug 1993 East Dereham three girls
Patience Maud Wray 1921 East Dereham my Nanna = Reginald Charles Freezer of Scarning, East Derham
Winifred Mabel Wray 1923 East Dereham
Sidney John Wray 1924 to 1991 East Dereham = Elsie Mary Millican of Gt Yarmouth 1927-1975 - children David John Wray 1967 E.D.
Oswald Herbert Wray 1927 - 1994 East Dereham = Margaret Fitt 1916-1972 three children Brenda, Christine & Phillip
Kenneth Brian Wray 1930-2006 East Dereham = Jessie Smith of North Elmham no children
Leslie William Wray 1932 - 1972 East Dereham
Linda Rose Wray 1934 East Dereham - 2009 Adelaide, Australia = Martin David Whitney of Gloucester - two children Terence & Glenda living in Adelaide area.
Douglas Wray born and died in 1935 in East Dereham

Non of Duke's children were travellers apart from Ethel marrying into Russell Gray's line. They had a Vardo in the garden when I was a little girl in the 1960's when they lived in Scarning.

That's all for now, too much to put down - please send email address.

Best regards
Lesley

[CLJordan]

Have read all the above with very much interest. My Great Grandmother was a Waterfield, Ebbest (Ebby) Selina Waterfield. Born 1895 Died 1972 age 77 years. Her parents were Walter and Alice Waterfield. She married Francis Henry Jordan in 1913. My Grandfather, Benjamin Walter Jordan was born 1916. He married Maud Lee in 1942, they had Frank, Donald (My Father deceased) Sonia Dewing (Nee Jordan - deceased)) and Benji Jordan. Have always been very interested in finding more about the Waterfields. My Father sadly died when I was 11 but have many memories of visiting the commons, beaches at Waxham Norfolk, (Ben Jordans Sister Muiriel lived there) and Gt Yarmouth, did we go there because he was related to the Gray family?? I can also remember him telling me we were related to the Grays, Stubbs and Spurgeons? Would love to no more, Grandfather Ben died in 2000 and Granny is 91 and having lost 2 of her children adn her husband she finds it all very upsetting to talk about the past. Grandad Ben bought and sold horses and cars and ran the scrap yard at Coltishall Norfolk known as The Dell. If anyone can tell me anymore I would be very grateful, many thanks in advance.

[Rico]

Hi CL Jordan,

Yes, we are both related one another through the Gray family.

Our shared ancestors are Robert Gray (1775 - 1843) & his wife Mary Leighton (1777 - 1849). From your information above Robert & Mary Gray are your 5 x great grandparents :-)

The Lee family are another well known Roma Gypsy family so you could well have further multiple ties ?

If you are interested in swapping further information let me know or E-Mail me.

Rico

[Lesley Day]

Hi
I have about 14 pages of information about the Waterfields going back to 1791 in Leicestershire which includes Ebby, the Lee, Pope and Gray's. Please contact me off list and I will sent info to you. Regards Lesley

[CLJordan]

Thank you for your reply, have had alovely email from Lesley Day who has been very helpful.
Look forward to finding out more!!!
Kind regards,
Charlotte

[dav b]

Hi Lesley,i am married to Christine Wray daughter of Oswald Wray and live in Whissonsett we know the Harris family, we used to live in cottage formerly occupied by Cardy nickname Harris whom i believe was born in caravan on Hurn Lane Whissonsett and i think may be grandson of Trinity Harris,i remember your mum Pat who is Christines aunty and i can remember her son cannot remember his name,we had no idea our familys were linked to Harris family,my cousin married into Pope family who are related to Grays,perhaps you would like to reply.David

[Lesley Day]

Hi David, have sent you a private email. Glad you joined the group as you may be able to enlighten me on the Harris' a bit more.
Best regards
Lesley

[peggysmum]

hello. have been reading this thread with intrest as I have recently discovered in my research a link to the waterfield family. my great gran was lavina loveridge bn 1897 to Israel and eliza loveridge. one of her brothers was Charlie loveridge bn 1895-1979 his wife was a nancy bird. they had a daughter bn c1916 called jemima "Minnie" loveridge she died in 1984 her partner was sonny waterfield bn c 1915 and died in 1986. his birth was apparently not registered his granddaughter has told me of the dates they passed and that his mum was called susan but she knows nothing else. also Minnie and sonny used all 3 names at different times, loveridge waterfield and gray. so I wandered if they might connect to joseph and Margaret. I had found both on the census but am unable to work out if sonny's father was one of there sons. so I wander does anyone know of a sonny bn around 1915 to this family. would be great if I could tie them together. thanks so much tracey

[geneius]

#37 Peggysmum, welcome

This appears to be your family

1901
RG13 1512 41 30.
54 Chapel Walk Dunstable
LOVERIDGE Israel 30 Licensed Hawker Ampthill Beds
LOVERIDGE Miltea 30 Licensed Hawker Cranfield Beds
LOVERIDGE Joseph 11? Nasty Hunden Herts
LOVERIDGE Tigher 9 Bilston Suffolk
LOVERIDGE Charles 7 Bilston Suffolk
LOVERIDGE Lovey 4 Bilston Suffolk
LOVERIDGE Elizias 2 Toddington Beds
BIRTH:
Israel Parker LOVERIDGE Oct – Dec 1869 Ampthill Beds v 3b p 376
( could be the son of Alfred & Comfort 1871 shown as LOVER/LOVELL/ PARKER )

RG13 1774: 34: 27
31 Handford Cut Ipswich
PARKER Alfred 47 Ag Lab Bedford Beds
PARKER Comfort 46 Stoke ?Alding Beds
PARKER Rose 18 Bedford Beds
PARKER Patience 15 Charlton Beds
PARKER Amelia 12 Middleton Suff
PARKER Cindervella 8 Cracknell Suffolk
PARKER Levi 18 nephew Colchester Essex private in Militia *
PARKER Thomas g/son 2mths Ipswich
*Royal Garrison Artillery – Suffolk no 2543 period Feb 1901 – Jan 1902

[peggysmum]

hi. yes that is my family, I have found all that Israel is the son of Alfred and comfort. although Alfred is actually a loveridge not a parker. he does like to change his name about, but it is them. i have know idea though who levi and Thomas are.
tracey

[geneius]

I think you will find that Comfort was Comfort PARKER d/o Nelson

[geneius]

The PARKER family may have links with DRAPER / SINFIELD

[peggysmum]

yes my parkers are connected to the drapers but i don't know about sinfields. does anyone know anything about sonny waterfield and the possible connection with the gray/waterfield families please.
thankyou tracey

[peggysmum]

no she wasn't that comfort parker her parents were William ellice parker and emma. i do know about these people.

[geneius]

Do you have any dates / places for Sonny WATERFIELD

[peggysmum]

sonny was born c1916 and died in 1986 they seem to have spent most of there years in Bedfordshire. I don't know where he was born.

[Lesley Day]

sonny was born c1916 and died in 1986 they seem to have spent most of there years in Bedfordshire. I don't know where he was born.

Name Estimated Birth Year Date of Registration Registration District
Sonny Gray 1915 Nov 1986 Lincoln Lincolnshire
He was born 8 June 1915 according to this record on Ancestry

Kind regards
Lesley

[peggysmum]

ah that is very intresting thankyou, I hadn't been able to find his death reg , he seems to have used those 3 different names all his life, his "wife" jemima Minnie my relation was also reg jemima gray. she used that surname when she registered the death of my great uncle Charlie her dad, fooled me that did I can tell you. anyway I wander if he was a gray actually bn to a gray father and waterfield mother or the otherway around, I know it wouldn't neccesarily mean he was either as they used what name they liked but I do just wander, gray or waterfield what where his parents? is it me or is that an intriguing mystery, perhaps its just me.is there a tree on ancestry then with him on. thanks tracey

[SunnyD]

Hi! I wondered if you’d found the answers you was looking for as I could help but notice your post as this is my family!

[peggysmum]

Hi sunny. No not really i still don't know which was his correct name.