Gingerbread Hall, Great Baddow

[GeoffD]

My ancestor (ggg-grandfather) John BRIGHTWELL was counted in the 1841 census at Gingerbread Hall (he was a gardener). I have been trying to find out if this place still exists, and what it was. Being Australian, and having little knowledge of Chelmsford and its surrounding area, I am at quite a loss.

Can any 'locals' edify me?

Thanks
Geoff

[GeoffD]

|woohoo|

The Essex Place-names database contains two entries from 1838 documents: Gingerbread Hall Mead owned by Rev. John Jeffreys and occupied by Matthew Mason; and Gingerbread Hall Spring, owned and occupied by Rev John Jeffreys.

Geoff

[GeoffD]

Following up on Mythology's tip in the Grumpy Old Men - Biggin' It Up thread, I went back to the 1841 Census.

The Rev gent wasn't mentioned, but three Ag. Labourer families plus my ggg-grandfather and his family as Gardener, and one elderly lady (Rachel Mead). So it looks like it was a farm.

Families were Abrey, Lewis and Prentice, plus Brightwell (my lot).

[Mythology]

Got it. :)

(And I should have got it earlier - my brain needs an MOT I reckon)

Needless to say, none of those ag labs show up in the 1839 directory, and an entry for "Lewis the Misses, Baddow" in the Gentry and Clergy list is obviously not the same Lewis!

However, you mentioned in the other thread that " farms either side - Little Sir Hughes, Sir Hughes".
"Oh", thought I, "I know them, they are well to the south, I haven't looked far enough out of the village."

The 1861 census entry is much the same, six ag lab families, nobody who looks as if they have a surplus bean, and in 1881 the name "Gingerbread Hall" doesn't appear, but with the amount of familes there, even allowing for the crowded living conditions of the average ag lab, it should, I would think, show up on a decent map.

Well, it may not be listed in the 1881 census, but it's on the 1881 map:

http://www.gordon5690.plus.com/images/gh-1881-1.png

(more follows - not sure if the forum will cope with more than one image per message, so I'm playing safe)

[Mythology]

There were some pretty sizeable old estates round there - a 1760ish History of Essex refers, for instance, to Great and Little "Sir Hugh's", the name coming from one Sir Hugh de Badewe, and there are a few other estates like Sebrights and Portlands mentioned, it's very much "big estate" territory!

Given that, both in your 1841 entry and in my 1861 entry, there is nobody there who is actually a farmer, they are *all* labourers, and given that it's right on the road, I suspect that what we *may* be looking at here (I'm only guessing!) is something like an old lodge that's been used in later years as farm workers' accommodation.

On a modern ordinary road map, the location is approximately the junction of the Chelmsford by-pass (A12) and the Southend Road (A130). This, reduced to fit the forum, is a bit more of the area in 1881:

http://www.gordon5690.plus.com/images/gh-1881-2.png

(one more bit follows)

[Mythology]

Now, this is where it gets interesting.

I scanned the relevant bit of a modern ordinary (Landranger) OS map then, using The Grove, Sandon Hall and the Howe Green Congregational Chapel as a guide, reduced that chunk of old map to match the scale as best I could, marking Gingerbread Hall in red and the river in blue.
I then remembered that about six years ago I'd bought a Chelmsford street map, so dug that out, scanned the relevant bit of that and reduced it to match too.

The OS map shows a building on the slip road from the by-pass in about the same position as the old Gingerbread Hall.

The street map shows a track (probably a bit of the old road) which the OS map doesn't, leading up to where that building would be if the street map marked it. The street map, incidentally, although it's not exactly clear on my scan, still marks the bridge as "Gingerbreadhall Bridge", with "Gingerbreadhall" all as one word, just like the 1881 map!

I don't suppose for one minute that it's the same building as was there in 1841, it'll be a miracle if it hasn't been rebuilt or "improved" beyond all recognition, but it does look as if *something* is still there on the same site:

http://www.gordon5690.plus.com/images/gh-strip.png

:)

[GeoffD]

|woohoo|

Many thanks for that, Mythology. Fantastic detective work. I have some other people in Australia descended from that same gardener that went looking for the place when they were over there, but without success.

So do the names Great Baddow and Little Baddow also come from Sir Hugh de Badewe?

As for the collection of ag labourers, and the fact that the Reverend gent was owner, that could also mean that it was an 'absentee landlord' thing.

[GeoffD]

The OS map shows a building on the slip road from the by-pass in about the same position as the old Gingerbread Hall.

The street map shows a track (probably a bit of the old road) which the OS map doesn't, leading up to where that building would be if the street map marked it. The street map, incidentally, although it's not exactly clear on my scan, still marks the bridge as "Gingerbreadhall Bridge", with "Gingerbreadhall" all as one word, just like the 1881 map!

:)

That'd be right! I went looking for John Drew's abode in Blyth Terrace Lambeth, only to find it is now the Ernst and Young car park. Then his next abode, Edinburgh Cottages, is now under a huge multi-story housing complex. So it makes some sort of sense that John Brightwell's abode would be under a motorway.

[Mythology]

"So do the names Great Baddow and Little Baddow also come from Sir Hugh de Badewe?"

Looks like the other way around, Geoff.

The history that I referred to is by a fellow who just calls himself "a Gentleman". Checking it, I find that it's published in six volumes 1769-1772, so my "1760ish" date from memory should read "1770ish".

I can't do small capitals on here so we will have to live with big ones, but he says of the village:
"DOMESDAY-BOOK has it BADUNEN or BADUUEN; and other antient [sic] writings treat of it under the name of BADWAN and BADOEN.
THE derivation of it is certainly from the English monosyllable BAD, and a Saxon word, which signifies a river; alluding to the inconveniency of passing the waters here before a bridge was thrown over them."

Sir Hugh was relatively late coming on the scene (more detail of which below), because although he says:
"SIR HUGH'S, and SHENGES, is a kind of manor which derived it's [sic] name from it's [sic] former lord Sir Hugh de Badewe, of which family it was the very antient [sic] and considerable residence."
(which might lead you to think that Sir Hugh's family came over with Bill the Chestnut), he then adds:
"Before their time it had the appellation of MARSCALL'S, from its [hooray - he got that one right!] owner of that name."

Whether the estate was actually split, or whether someone next door nicked the name for their patch too, I don't know, but he says:
"THERE are now two estates that are called SIR HUGH'S, distinguished only by GREAT and LITTLE."

Of Great Sir Hugh's, after some decriptive stuff and a mention of the Marscall fellow, he then says:
"IT came from these into the Badewe family by marriage, in the reign of Edward the First. In the ye r [sic] 1331, being the fifth of Edward the Third, Edmund Badewe died, and bequeathed it to his son Hugh, who was afterwards knighted, and from whom the estate took its present name, as before observed."

(And, yes - given your luck so far, if that building on the slip road turns out to be a Little Chef, it won't surprise me! :D )

[mary elms]

I've been watching this thread with interest as part of my husband's family are SCOTCHMANs from Little Baddow.

Just to add to Mythology's post - I was looking at the 1695 map of Essex by Robert Morden today and found Little Baddow marked as 'Baddow' and Great Baddow marked as 'Baddon' which fits with the kind of variations mentioned. The Little & Great are not used on this map.

Afraid the map's not detailed enough to find Gingerbreadhall :(

Mary.

[GeoffD]

Very interesting, folks. Many thanks indeed. I'll show this to other Brightwell descendants when I get back home - at least two are doing a lot of Brightwell research.

Another locality that Chelmsford people would know about that is connected to this family is Dace's Music Shop. Even though it has been sold out of the Dace family now for some 70 years, they've kept the name.

[mary elms]

Just had another look at the map and realised that Little Baddow is marked as 'Baddow parva' and Great Baddow is marked as 'Baddon mao' so they are Little Baddow and Great Baddon after all. There's a gap between the words so I didn't notice that they were linked!

Mary.

[GeoffD]

(And, yes - given your luck so far, if that building on the slip road turns out to be a Little Chef, it won't surprise me! :D )

The "Little Chef" reference is a bit confusing, but what the hey?

If anybody uses that slip road, how about getting a passenger to check out what the building is? Be great if it was still The Place Formerly Known as Gingerbread Hall.

[Mythology]

Oh! They are obviously not as international as the big fast-food chains, then - sorry!

They are a chain of eateries aimed at the motorist, so usually situated on or near the major roads - that slip road would be an ideal site, I reckon.
They do at least sell reasonably edible meals, not just the burger and sludge sauce muck (at least, they still did the last time I was in one, about five years ago) and they can be handy on a journey, but they are, of course, boringly predictable. OK if you're pushed, but not somewhere you'd actually *go* to.

No promises, but if it isn't chucking down with rain, I *may* be out that way about October with an hour or two to spare.

[GeoffD]

Thanks, Mythology. Might be a while before I get to Essex.

But I do have another contact who goes to Chelmsford 3 days a week. I'll send him the maps and see if he goes anywhere near the spot.

[GeoffD]

Now that I'm back home, I had a look at the aerial photography on Multimap at that slip road. The buildings there have all the appearance of a farmhouse. Unfortunately, the 1:5000 photography is not as clear as in some places. Also unfortunate that one cannot 'pinch' the aerial pic from the website. But Multimap shows the Sir Hughes and Little Sir Hughes farms, and I now know where East Hanningfield Road runs (that is where gg grandfather George Brightwell was living in 1841).

Next thing is to look at satellite photography of that interchange arrangement. But I need to get onto a broadband connection for that. It is all coming together.

The Google Maps satellite images of the area are worse than the Multimap aerials, so no great luck there. Such is life.

[get2BJ]

Hi all,

As I was driving south along the A12 on Sunday evening, I thought I would take a little detour down the slip road and left off the roundabout towards Howe Green. I then turned directly left into the little service road which led me to nothing more than two small '60s built bungalows. The place is in full summer leafy bloom as you can imagine and nothing more than trees and bushes could be seen. I was unable to take photos of the bungalows as one of the occupants was in his driveway (nearest to the A12). The second bungalow advertises on no less than three large boards its trade in exotic birds of the feathered variety. My young son took a photo of this:

See next post/...

[get2BJ]

http://static.flickr.com/24/40879905_a07f0f3569.jpg

Note the security camera on the telegraph pole!

[get2BJ]

I then crossed the now famous Gingerbreadhall Bridge and drove up the hill into Howe Green and turned left into East Hanningfield Road. The church is directly on the left and immediately before it is a concrete bridle path which leads down to Sandon Hall Farm over open country for about 1/2 mile. I drove down there in the hope that I might be able to see behind the two previously mentioned bungalows for any signs of old farm buildings, barns etc, but this was not possible due to the upward gradient of the land to my left. On reaching Sandon Hall Farm, a polite sign informed us that trespassers would be prosecuted, dogs on the loose etc, so we turned round back up into the village. Driving back down toards the A12, I was able to stop the vehicle and take a few pictures of the little bridge. Please don't hold your breath...

See next post/...

[get2BJ]

http://static.flickr.com/22/40879901_6ec714727c.jpg

Howe Green behind me, A12 in front.

[GeoffD]

Many thanks for that, get2BJ. Too bad that Gingerbread Hall has gone, but that is the way of the world. Two bungalows sort of fits what you can see on the Multimap Air photo.

Follow get2BJ's travels here:

http://www.multimap.com/map/photo.cgi?client=public&X=575000&Y=202000&width=700&height=400&gride=575036.086178755&gridn=203339.042297954&srec=0&coordsys=gb&db=freegaz&pc=&zm=0&scale=25000&up.x=288&up.y=6

[get2BJ]

By now passing motorists think I am crazy, but here's the bridge...

http://static.flickr.com/22/40879902_4c772ab716.jpg

[get2BJ]

http://static.flickr.com/22/40879903_b60a0deb04.jpg
Yes, a gently southwards flowing, clean stream...

[GeoffD]

Pics not appearing at this end, get2BJ.

[get2BJ]

Whew! That's it, mission accomplished. I was on a web site recently which reflects modern day living in Howe Green if you're still interested?!

http://www.pearson7.plus.com/hgca/index.html

There's a few photos on here as well.

Best Wishes

Brenda

[get2BJ]

Sorry you can't see the pics, I've got them crystal clear on my postings. I wonder if anyone else can see them?

I will check in again tomorrow after work and see if a solution has been posted. If not I can always email them to you.

Brenda

[Mythology]

I think the reason that we're not seeing the pictures, Brenda, is because they are not in your web space, they are in some kind of MSN storage area.
Looking at the code for this page, the first link, for instance, is
<img src="http://storage.msn.com/x1pAdjo0uCo2H1K1yXqE9UNyb5Dj7A34tLe74ZOyM6Z8Pd9E7H N2Kzk2Eqn-YXOk1XM3Niwk0YZVIhGaESX-lKwin502YxZTYFJBInOq_V3rXDI-m7p77WHm6grQOIlj0eo4Jan
MgsbjNRUAHIFxCT6lg" border="0" alt="" />
I would imagine that a large company like MSN use some kind of encryption or other sort of protection which prevents hotlinking in order to stop bandwidth theft. *You* can see them because it's your storage area. Somebody else who is logged into MSN *may* possibly be able to see them (I've no idea what actually goes on with MSN, so not sure about that) - anyone else can't.

P.S. Somebody obviously has a sense of humour - I *love* the "Communications Centre" photo on the other site - a parish noticeboard, a post box and a phone box. :D

[get2BJ]

Thanks Myth,

I'll find a solution during daylight hours Tuesday, sorry folks!

Brenda

[GeoffD]

P.S. Somebody obviously has a sense of humour - I *love* the "Communications Centre" photo on the other site - a parish noticeboard, a post box and a phone box. :D

That is just marvellous - and the parish noticeboard appears to be empty, as well.

[GeoffD]

If not I can always email them to you.

If you can't get it sorted, please do so. I can then stick them in Photobucket and link them from there.

Cheers
Geoff

[get2BJ]

Geoff,

I remembered I already had a FlickR membership, so I posted the photos on there. Hopefully you are all viewing the edited postings okay now.

Anyway, I am located fairly close to Chelmsford - Braintree, which is slightly more to the north (about 12 miles) on the A120 so I can usually find time to check out these little snippets of information that help to give you a more rounded picture of your subject. Have camera and will travel (within reason that is, or if it's on my way)! I particularly like looking at old buildings aswell so everyone's a winner!

Best wishes

Brenda

[Mythology]

That's it, Brenda, you've done it - they're all showing up nicely now. :)

I think it's about 5.45 a.m. in Geoff's part of Oz right now, but I expect he'll pop in when he's had breakfast.

Those parakeets look distinctly Australian to me - I reckon they are saying "Tough luck, mate. You wouldn't give us a Fosters when we asked, so we've eaten your crummy old building - that'll teach you." ;)

[get2BJ]

Thanks for the confirmation Myth - I have been sitting here with my fingers crossed!

Actually, exotic birds have become quite topical at the moment, given what we're hearing about Parrot Flu on the News this evening.http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_126.gif

Brenda

[GeoffD]

|woohoo| That's great, Brenda (if I may make so bold as to call you that).

Ringneck Parrots are indeed Australian in origin. Not common, either.

Yesterday afternoon, I fired off a tentative email to the Howe Green Community Association, and this morning a reply. I quote:
"HI Geoff,

There is still a Gingerbread Hall at the bottom of Gingerbread Hill but it
is a bungalow built around 1940. I assume that the old hall was demolished.
There was a house on the site next to the current bungalow but it was
demolished when a new bungalow was built on the site. There are now two
bungalows on the site.

I have put your email on the community forum and will let you know if any
other information comes to light.

Regards,
David Pearson
Chairman of Howe Green Community Association
9 Chalklands, Sandon, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 7TH UK"

So one of those bungalows still carries the name!

Now I have to send all these details off to the other Brightwell descendants that I know.

Many thanks to you all, once again. This has been fantastic, as I am as much interested in the places of my disparate ancestry as the people.

For Brenda: Dace's Music Shop in Chelmsford is part of my 'heritage', though it has long been sold out of the Dace family.

[GeoffD]

I reckon they are saying "Tough luck, mate. You wouldn't give us a Fosters when we asked, so we've eaten your crummy old building - that'll teach you." ;)

Who drinks Fosters, anyway?
:D

[get2BJ]

That's a great result Geoff, but I think I must hone my bungalow dating skills!:D I'm glad they've kept on the tradition of the old name - you may be able to claim your inheritance one day after all!

Best wishes for now, Brenda

[GeoffD]

Update. Received this morning:


Hello Geoff,
I Live in Howe Green, Essex, just a quarter of a mile from Gingerbread hall bridge. I too am researching Brightwells. My mothers maiden name was Brightwell but I have only got as far back as 1830 in London. At the moment there is no link with the Brightwells of Gingerbread Hall and until I saw your e-mail in the local newsletter I was unaware of the connection. It is possible that as I get further back there may be a sideways link. If I find anything that may help you I will contact you again. I do have other relatives in Queensland by the name of Glass, but a sister of the original Glass settlers married a Brightwell (in England) and is my Grandmother. Also my aunt, who was a Brightwell, married a McGavin and emigrated to Adelaide SA 48 years ago.
When I get a chance I will look into the fate of Gingerbread Hall at the local records office and let you know the outcome. However it will be a while before I can get there because of other commitments.
Best Wishes,
Pauline H

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Sorry to butt in on this thread Geoff, but I've been reading it from the start, because I'm nosey! ;)
I just want to say that I'm delighted for you, with all the help you've received from Members here, as I know you are too ...... so I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you now, that you and Pauline will 'connect'.

[GeoffD]

Now worries Diane. They're a great bunch, are they not? And not only in this thread - there were all those crazy people, including somebody's secretary who set forth into the wilds of Lambeth looking for a long-gone address where a great-great uncle lived in 1871! And now my third cousin has joined the Devon forum, too. Quite a community.

The funny thing about Pauline is, her surname is the same as one of the "founding fathers" of the group of comanies I work for. He's the one whose name doesn't show in the company name any more.

[Mythology]

Thanks for the update, Geoff - and I hope Pauline's visit is successful, it would be nice to know when it actually disappeared. :)

[GeoffD]

The latest from my new friend in Howe Green


Hello Geoff,
I spent this afternoon at the records office to see what I could find for you. I have attached the largest O.S. Map I could find that still showed Gingerbread Hall. I am afraid it looks as if it is now under the junction of the A12 and the A130. I checked on the latest Census and found that it was still standing in 1901. I attach copies of the 1901 and the 1891 census that list it. There were very few workers there in 1891 but it seems to have increased its fortunes by 1901. I was not able to find any photographs of the Hall in the local records office at all, neither could I find any sales catalogues. I have asked for help on the local radio station but so far no one has come forward with any information. I will make enquiries next week at the local planning office in case they have any compulsory purchase orders on file. It may have been demolished to make way for the new A12 which was built during the 1970's or '80's although I cannot find any reference to it in our local studies centre between 1901 and 1970.
There is an excellent book that you may be interested in. It is a recent publication by Allen Buckroyd and called "Great Baddow Oral History". He and his team interviewed all the old folk of the vill901. I attach copies of the 1901 and the 1891 census that list it. There were very few workers there in 1891 but it seems to have increased its fortunes by 1901. I was not able to find any photographs of the Hall in the local records office at all, neither could I find any sales catalogues. I have asked for help on the local radio station but so far no one has come forward with any information. I will make enquiries next week at the local planning office in case they have any compulsory purchase orders on file. It may have been demolished to make way for the new A12 which was built during the 1970's or '80's although I cannot find any reference to it in our local studies centre between 1901 and 1970.
There is an excellent book that you may be interested in. It is a recent publication by Allen Buckroyd and called "Great Baddow Oral History". He and his team interviewed all the old folk of the village and transcribed their reminiscences. It is interspersed with lots of old photographs of Great Baddow village as your ancestors would have known it. The Book sells for about £7 or £8 but I don't know how much overseas postage is. You can get in touch with Allen at [email protected] he will tell you more.
Although Gingerbreadhall Bridge is in Howe Green, Gingerbread Hall itself seems to be within Great Baddow boundaries and all the local shops and amenities at that time were only available in Great Baddow.
If you ever get more information as to where your grandmother was born in East Hanningfield Road, a house name perhaps, then I can go and have a look for you with my trusty camera.

The book about Great Baddow looks interesting for anybody with connections in the area.

Unfortunately, my informant has struck a brick wall with her Brightwells from London. I should suggest she join up here, I think. Who knows, somebody might be able to help.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Wow Geoff! I assume this info is from Pauline ..... she's amazing in her research for you! No doubt you will be buying the book if possible, so I hope you enjoy it. :)

[get2BJ]

Hi Geoff,

Wow, this thread just gets better and better! The sort of information gathered by all who have contributed here is first class and I just hope that eventually it all pays off and you get your illusive picture/image of the Hall in the end.

I just wanted to add that when I was actually 'on location' at the bungalows and comparing that to the maps that Mythology had posted, it did cross my mind that the Hall may have been slightly further to the west of the bungalows - if not under the A12/slip road or roundabout, then even on the other side of the A12 - ie, between the A12 and the A114 that leads into Chelmsford. This area is today labelled on the map as Lower Green. It all so depends on the exact scale of the original map and the course of the river, as long as its course hasn't been altered over the last century by human kind.

I think the next thing you need to instigate, through the power of persuasion/money or fair words, is an archaeological dig!!! If only... !http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_11_5v.gif

Best wishes

Brenda

[GeoffD]

I have e-mailed Pauline suggesting that she consider 'joining up'. I will have to win a big lottery so I can visit Essex (and Cornwall, and Devon, and Wiltshire, and Norfolk, and Fermanagh, and Pinner Middx., and Somerset and Gloucestershire and ... and Wisconsin).

Orright. Own up. Who gave this thread the 5 star treatment?

[Ron Leech]

Pinner Middx.,
What do you want in Pinner?

[GeoffD]

To see the site of the old "Red Lion", to see the house in Bridge Street, to visit great-great-grandad WW Dyer's grave in Paines Lane (and gggrandma's), to track down locations in old photos that grandad and grandma took in 1918 and thereabouts, to track down descendants of WW Dyer Jr, and Bedfrod descendants of Emily Eliza Dyer. Take a look at my photobucket as listed in my details, Ron. And those photos are just a start to what I haven't scanned yet.

[Ron Leech]

Hi Geoff


Looked at your photographs of the Pinner area, that took me back a bit. I am not sure if the Pinner fair is still going (haven't lived in the area for about 20 years now). I do visit the general vicinity so if you want any details let me know.

[GeoffD]

I've had a reply re the book! Will order when I get back home. Also, a scan of a 1920's postcard showing one of John Brightwell's other houses Pitt Place (he was gardener there in 1871). Pitt Place is still standing but reported to be "looking sorry for itself these day"s.

It sounds as if Gingerbread Hall is one of those places that everybody in the area has heard of, but nobody really knows exactly where it stood.

And Ron, thanks for the offer re Pinner.

[GeoffD]

Sod's law took over, and the book (books - ordered for two other Brightwell descendants too) arrived within days of my departure for Aceh. Very interesting oral history of the 20th century doings in Great Baddow.