ASHER HYMEN HART 1810-1871 PARENTS & SIBLINGS

[phillip]

As a follow up to my posting regarding the will of Benjamin Hart I have received data on the parents and siblings of one of the individuals who received a bequest. He was Asher Hymen Hart who played a significant part in establishing the Melbourne Synagogue before returning to the UK where he died in 1871. There are details of his Probate including his death 15 Jan 1871 at 7 Clifton Gardens and probate proved by his executors Louis Joseph; Moses Joseph; Hyam Jonas and Asher's wife Rachel.
The parents of Asher were Hyam Hart 1770-1828 and Elizabeth Hart 1770-1848. Asher's siblings were: Lewis 1803-1843;Miriam Louisa 1805-1849;Henry Hyam 1810-1871; Rebecca 1840; Edward 1818-1854; Isaac Hart JP 1820-1899.
I have yet to confirm the family links between these Hart lines and my own two Hart paternal lines nor have I looked in any detail at the individuals listed. Any contact with descendants of the lines and any data on the families welcome.
Phillip

[rockyboy]

Phillip
I am a direct descendent of Elizabeth and Hyam Hart, who were in fact cousins. Elizabeths parents were Leizer/Lazarus
Hart (b1743d 20/1/1800) and Rachel(b1752d 17/9/1818) I do not know her maiden name but on her death record she
is shown as Rachel Birmingham, and Lazarus as Lizer Birmingham. They lived in Rosemary Lane in London and were
in the hat and used clothing trade.Not only was Asher Hymen Hart involved in founding the Melbourne Synagogue, but
his brother Johns daughter Elvina Hart born in New York in 1822 came to Melbourne and in 1849 married Moses Rintel,
the first rabbi.If you let me know who your Hart lines come from i may be able to confirm the connection. If our Hart lines
are linked i have much to tell you.
Rockyboy

[phillip]

My thanks for the contact regarding possible Hart lines connections. My two Hart lines who married into each other descend from 1 Benjamin Hart b unknown and died circa 1836 London- wife unknown but may have been first name Elizabeth. Benjamin was a slop seller/clothes salesman in Rosemary Lane and later 3 and 7 Hollywell St in partnership with his son Lewis ( Louis). This line barring Michael Hart another son were all clothiers and data on them appear in a variety of records. John Hart son of Benjamin married Elizabeth Jacobs ( there is significant data on the Jacobs glass/china and other trades family on this site and on the Jacobs website). Henry Chapman Hart son of John and Elizabeth married Amelia Hart daughter of Aaron Hart and Ann Rebecca Crawcour. Aaron Hart descends from Henry Hart boot and shoe maker 90 Leman St in 1808 and Phoebe Myers. Henry is the son of Jacob. I know nothing about the siblings ( if any ) of Benjamin Hart or Henry Hart and his father Jacob. Phoebe Myers parents were Jacob Myers and Eve/Eva.
Aaron Hart was a boot/shoe manufacturer in partnership with his brother John trading as A&J Hart at 62 Leman St in 1841 and by 1848 at 156 Houndsditch ( this address was the former premises of Mitchell Myers and his brother sons of Joel Myers of Maldon) - I have no indication that there was any relationship between my own Myers line and the Joel Myers line and have seen the wills of Joel and Mitchell which does not name any of my Hart line or Phoebe).
In a very brief summary, these are my Hart lines.
My records show who the Hart lines married into and I have posted a range of data on some of these lines on this site.
My Crawcour lines married into the Cashmore and other families and Isaac Crawcour who married Esther Cashmore settled in Melbourne. The records I hold on these and other Crawcour and related families is significant. Any new data welcomed.
Phillip

[rockyboy]

Phillip
I would love the details of Benjamin Harts will. Lazarus and Rachel Hart had four documented children. They were Elizabeth b1770,
Asher b 1786, John b 13/2/1789, and Abraham b 1801.Elizabeth d 18/5/1848 in Rosemary Lane. Asher d 6/2/1860 in Sydney Nsw.
John arrived in Melbourne Australia in 1841 and died there on 23/1/1864. Abraham was transported to Australia as a convict and
was drowned in the Murrumbidgee River in NSW in 1851.There were three other children mentioned but not authenticated. THey
were Benjamin, Edward and Issac. The fact that your Benjamin lived in Rosemary Lane and was involved in the used clothing trade
would seem to indicate that both our Benjamins are one and the same. Perhaps your Benjamins will can confirm that.
Regards
Rockyboy

[phillip]

Thanks again for the various data in relation to the Hart lines. First of all, can I suggest caution regarding potential relationships between the lines. You will note that Benjamin Hart who died in 1852 is not the same person as my 4x great grandfather Benjamin Hart who died circa 1836. In addition, Aaron Hart my 3x great grandfather was the sole executor of the 1852 Will but his father Henry may or may not relate to Benjamin Hart who died circa 1836 or Benjamin who died in 1852. It maybe that Aaron Hart was chosen as executor because he was a close friend or involved in previous business.
We have no data to indicate what the relationships are at present or indeed if there are any. Other than a connection via marriage between Aaron's daughter Amelia to John Hart's son Henry Chapman Hart my 2x great grandfather there is know data to suggest a closer relationship.
It appears that Benjamin may have been a bachelor or widower because there is no mention in the 1852 will of any bequests to his wife or children.
In addition, the excellent site Synagogue Scribes has a brief summary of Benjamin's will in which it indicates who Hyam Hart brother of Benjamin's father may have been namely Leib Hatter. It would be worth cross checking the data from this site and the partner Cemetery Scribes site.
The Will summary details ( I have read the full 6 page will) are brief:
The Probate is dated 24 Dec 1852 Middlesex and Benjamin died 24 July 1852 at 128 Leman St Goodman's Fields Middx
Benjamin left the principal bequest to his nephew Henry Hart son of Hyam and Elizabeth Hart including furniture,household possessions, clothing, monies.His sister Sarah was left £10; his nephew Asher H Hart in Melbourne Port Philip was left a watch and gold chain. The total sum of money left was £100.

Do you have any further data which sheds light on the relationships?
Phillip

[rockyboy]

Phillip
Thank you for the details my Benjamins will. That is most definitly him. For the fiest time i have proof of his place in my
Hart line, It is also the first time i have seen a reference to another daughter of Lazarus and Rachel. I will have to look into my
information to try and sort out the rest.
Regards
Rockyboy

[rockyboy]

Phillip
I was given 105 pages of the Hart line and its linked families.The entry for Elizabeth Hart says she married her cousin Hyam
Hart ,the son of Leib Hart(Hetter?) at the Great Synagogue of London on 23/6/1802. His Hebrew name is thought to be Leib/Zvi
Hette Hart. He died on25/1/1828. Since Elizabeth and Hyam were cousins, is it not possible that our Benjamins were also
cousins?
REgards
Rockyboy

[phillip]

The 1861 British Census RG9 166 16 29 ( Crown Copyright,TNA) shows that Asher was back in England at 40 Upper Bedford Square Bloomsbury St George
Asher H Hart H M 50 Fundholder b Aldgate;Rachel wife 43 b Aldgate;Lewis son U 17 Merchant Clerk b Australia Melbourne; Rosetta dau 14 b Melbourne;Hyam M son11 b Melbourne;Israel son 8 b Melbourne;Edward son 6 b Melbourne; Edith dau 5 b London Bloomsbury; Albert Octavius son 4 b London Bloomsbury;Emily dau 1 b London Bloomsbury
In the 1851 Census Aaron Hart was at 27 Bedford Square. In the 1871 Census RG10 11 32 2 ( Crown Copyright,TNA) Rachel is a widow:
Rachel Hart Mother widow Merchant's wife; Rosetta dau U 23 ; H Melbourne son U 21 Merchant's clerk; Israel son 18 Merchant's clerk;Edward son 17 scholar;Edith dau 15;Albert son12;Emily dau 11; Marian dau 8; Ernest son 6
They were living at 7 Clifton Gardens Paddington
Doreen Berger 'The Jewish Victorian;Genealogical Information from the Jewish Newspapers 1871-1880'. Robert Boyd Pub1999 includes a range of records on the family including the death of Asher at 7 Clifton Gardens Maida Hill age 61 after a long illness- death 15.1.1871; His son Ernest died at the same address 4.9.1874. Lewis died in Melbourne age 31 on 12.6.1874- 40 Napier St Fitzroy Melbourne; Edith married Henry Hayman 20.6.1876; Rosetta (Posey) married Michaelis Hallenstein 3.2.1880

I hope this fills in more gaps.
Phillip

[phillip]

If you look on JewishGen London Trader's Data base; National Archives Sun Fire Records; London Gazette Archives; Old Bailey Online archives you will see reference to Benjamin Hart my 4x great grandfather. As an example, the Sun Fire Records show:
Benjamin Hart 4 the corner of West Gardens Upper Shadwell, salesman silversmith and dealer in hats, hardware and toys 1803- I am not sure if he is my 4x g grandfather but the following Sun Fire records do relate to him- from at least 1804 -1834 he was at 7 Holywell St Strand- glover and dealer in wearing apparel and by 1834 at both 3 and 7 Holywell- his son Lewis ( Louis Hart) was also at 7 Holywell and they were in partnership. In the Old Bailey Trials Online 6 April 1826 Benjamin Hart is a victim in a theft case and states " I am slop seller and live at Rosemary Lane...". He had a shop. The Sun Fire Records show also 1826- Benjamin Hart 122 Rosemary Lane -hatter and dealer in clothes.
The Sun Fire and other records also show that my 3x g grandfather John Hart who was also a clothes salesman and tailor ( son of Benjamin) was also trading in Rosemary Lane and later 319 Strand between 1820s-1830s.
Amongst all your documents what addresses; dates; names do you have which suggest links between the Benjamin's. A key question, if Benjamin Hart who died in 1852 was related to my own Benjamin Hart lines why didn't he ask one of Benjamin's sons to be the executor. Why did he ask Aaron Hart who although related by marriage to the Benjamin Hart line was not a direct descendant ( or was he a cousin and his father Henry a brother of Benjamin- pure speculation). What specific data do you have on the father of Hyam, Sarah and Benjamin other than he was 'Leib Hatter?'
Can you shed any light on this?
Phillip

[phillip]

The Jewish Genealogical Society Great Britain ( JGSGB) UK Database London Traders has records on:
Hyam Hart Hat maker 36 Rosemary Lane 1822 Underwood; Benjamin Hart Hatter 122 Rosemary Lane 1846-1849;Benjamin Hart 122 Rosemary Lane 1827-1828 Pigot; Elizabeth Hart Hatter and dealer in clothes 149 Rosemary Lane Pigot 1836
There are numbers of other references to Hart clothes dealers/tailors but I have included the potential relevant ones to the lines. The earliest reference to Benjamin Hart Holywell St is 1807 Sun Fire Records and later in 1814 Benjamin Hart slop seller 7 Holywell St. The reference to Benjamin and Henry Hart tailor and salesmen 2 Staceton Row Newington Butts 1819-1825 may refer to Benjamin Hart and his son Henry but I have no proof. From these records I suspect Hyam and Benjamin Hart are the sons of Leib the Hatter and if so, my own Benjamin Hart may not be associated with the Rosemary Lane addresses as I first thought. Do your records confirm any of the above data?
I hope the above assists.
Phillip

[rockyboy]

Phillip
As there is detailed imformation arising fro posts 8,9,and 10, i will deal with them seperately. After checking my information
the details of the 1861 UK census and the details of Asher Hyman Harts death in 1871 are correct.He returned to England in
November 1854.In my information there is also reference to Sarah Elias , sister in law and Hyam Elias a brother in law. Whether
that is in Australia or England i do not presently know.His son Hyam Melbourne died at sea on the 15/5/1907 aged 58.
Regards
Rockyboy

[rockyboy]

Philip
The story of my Hart line in London revolves around Rosemary Lane.Elizabeth was born in Rosemary Lane in 1770 and died
at number 122 on 18/5/1848. The 1841 census shows a Benjamin aged 55, a Mary Hart aged 45 and a son Lawrence aged,
4 living at 122. The Sun Fire Records date from 1826 and the Kellys PO directory for London in 1848 still show him there.
That would make 62 in 1848. He was also the informant for Elizabeths death. So he must be the Benjamin mentioned in
the Sun Fire Records of 1826 The only information i have on Leib Hatter is that his Hebrew name was possibly Leib/zvi Hette
Hart. Hyam was perhaps a member of the Freemasons Lodge of Israel which met at the public house of Davis at 36 Rosemary
Lane This is not the first time the question why our ancestors preferred particular people as executors of their wills has arisen.
Perhaps there was personal animosity between them. I will have to keep searching .
Regards
rockyboy

[rockyboy]

Phillip
With reference to post 10, i can confirm the details of all the people you have mentioned. Hart was a common Jewish name,
and so many of the Jews in Rosemary Lane were in the clothing trade. I have no evidence of any other children of Leib Hart.
The same goes for my Benjamin. Benjamin was definitly in Rosemary Lane for many years, but whether he and Elizabeth
were brother and sister or cousins i cannot positivly say. But what does strike me is the fact that the names, professions and
localities of our respective ancestors seem to parallel to each other. It all seems too much of a coincidence.
Regards
Rockyboy

[phillip]

The more data we share the better are chance of identifying a relationship between the families or not. Pigot's Directory 1838 has Abraham Hart hatter 126 Rosemary Lane and Benjamin Hart hatter 122 Rosemary Lane; Elizabeth Hart 149 Rosemary Lane both Benjamin and Elizabeth are hatters. Abraham is at the same address in 1848 and earlier between 1834-35 at 112 Rosemary Lane. For my own line I will add later some summary details on the children of Benjamin Hart but Rosa Hart his daughter married Henry Moses clothes salesman and family lived in Leman St. I will add details.
Phillip

[phillip]

I do not know if the following name is the correct person but Doreen Berger ' The Jewish Victorian. Genealogical information from the Jewish Newspapers 1861-1870 Robert Boyd Pub 2004 has reference to the death of a Sarah Elias in Lissa Prussia age 82 relict of Mr E Elias and mother of Mr D Elias 20 Westbourne Terrace North, Bayswater 25.2.1870. This line relates to the wife of Mr D Elias and her mother Julia Jones and father James Isiah Jones plus siblings John and Edward. I have just spotted another entry in the 1871-80 volume by Berger- Death Sarah Elias 29.7.1876 at the residence of her sister Mrs HART 7 Clifton Gardens Maida Vale widow of Hyam Elias of Sydney- Asher Hymen Hart brother in law. This confirms the Elias/Hart relationship.
Phillip

[phillip]

The following records provide more data on the relationships between the Hart and Elias lines. The records are Probate Summaries for Sarah Elias and Rachel Hart:
Rachel Hart late of 7 Clifton Gardens widow died 26 Jan 1881 at 7 Clifton Gardens Maida Vale Middx. Proved by Hyam Jonas 46 Westbourne Terrace Hyde Park Merchant;Louis Joseph 3 Warrington Crescent Maida Vale The Brother; Solomon Benjamin Brunswick House Clifton Gardens; Hyam Melbourne Hart 7 Clifton Gardens Maida Vale Cigar Merchant the Brother

The Probate of Sarah Elias:
Sarah Elias late of 7 Clifton Gardens Maida Vale Widow who died 29 July 1876 at same address. Proved by Rachel Hart widow the Sister; Moses Joseph 47 Bedford Square Gentleman; Louis Joseph 3 Warrington Crescent Maida Vale Merchant the Brothers.

Doreen Berger 'The Jewish Victorian. Genealogical Information from the Jewish Newspapers 1871-80' Robert Boyd Pub 1999 has entries for Moses Joseph which relate to his son H M Joseph; Alice Joseph daughter;John E Moss son in law; Julia Rose Joseph daughter

These records indicate Sarah and her sister Rachel were born Joseph
I will search further.
Phillip

[phillip]

Doreen Berger' The Jewish Victorian. Genealogical Information from the Jewish Newspapers 1861-70' Robert Boyd Pub 2004 includes reference to Moses Joseph of 46 Bedford Square and his son Michael and daughter in law Elizabeth Hart; Sarah Hart daughter and son in law Moss Valentine. In the same volume Elizabeth Hart eldest daughter of Zalig Hart of 101 Middlesex St married at the Gt Synagogue Duke's Place 0n 3.2.1869 to Michael Joseph of 36 Westbourne Terrace North 2nd son of the late Moses Joseph of Bath. Elizabeth Hart age 53 wife of Zalig Hart died on 29.12.1869 - 2 addresses of 36 Westbourne Terrace North and 101 Middlesex Street are cited.Sarah Joseph married Michael Valentine 3rd son of Abraham Valentine on 1.3.1865. Sarah was the eldest daughter of Moses Joseph. Moses Joseph's son Arthur I Joseph married Kate Moses 5th daughter of the late Elias Moses of Sydney on 18.11.1874 at Moor Park Sydney 18.11.1878.

This data links through marriage the Elias, Moses, Hart, Joseph, Valentine families.
Phillip

[phillip]

The previous data on Michael Joseph and his marriage to Elizabeth Hart and the marriage of Michael's sister Sarah to Moss Valentine further relates to the Cemetery Scribe records on Michael and Sarah's parents Moss Joseph and Esther Samuel. Michael Joseph is Person ID1494 and Sarah Joseph Person ID 1492. There is likely to be other data on the lines on Cemetery Scribes and Synagogue Scribes sites.
Phillip

[phillip]

My apologies for mixing up Moses Joseph who married Rosetta Nathan with a different individual ( emphasizes the importance of cross checking data). The Probate Record for Moses Joseph formerly of Sydney Merchant and late of 47 Bedford Square Middlesex died 7 Feb 1889 at 47 Bedford Square Proved by Louis Charles Lumley 139 Westbourne Terrace Hyde Park Gentleman; David Morton Joseph 18 Princes Ave Liverpool Merchant;Jerrold Nathan Joseph 17 Finsbury Pavement London Solicitor the 3 sons and 3 executors. Effects- £126,692.17s. 1d

There are a range of records relating to Moses including his Old Bailey Trial 7 April 1825 with 2 others where at age 17 he was sentenced to 7 years transportation for larceny. The records include his application to marry Rosetta Nathan in 1831 NSW and the 1861 British Census indicating his return to England.
Phillip

[phillip]

Probate record for Rosetta Joseph nee Nathan;
Rosetta Joseph late of 47 Bedford Square London died 22 Jan 1891 at same address. Probate granted to Jerrold Nathan Joseph 17 Finsbury Pavement London and 3 Pembridge Villas Bayswater Solicitor the Son and one of the next of kin. Effects £3990.15s.6d

1861 Census RG9 171 68 33 ( Crown Copyright, TNA)
46 Bedford Square St Giles
Moses Joseph H M 55 Merchant b London
Rosetta Joseph wife 48 b London
Charlotte Joseph dau U 22b Sydney NSW
Sarah " " dau u 19 " "
Miriam " dau u 17 " "
Israel son u15 b Sydney NSW
Alice dau 12 " "
David son 10 " "
Joseph son9 " "
Julia dau 7 " "

RG19 348 69 3 47 Bedford Square 1871 Census Moses; wife and various children plus Amelia Merton grand daughter 13 and Sarah Merton 9 granddaughter - 1881 census 47 Bedford Square RG 11 325 75 7 Moses and Rosetta

Charlotte Joseph married Louis Charles Lumley solicitor 14.8.1861 at 46 Bedford Square
Phillip

[rockyboy]

Phillip
I will have to go through my information before i reply to what you have sent me. My information regarding Abraham Hart
is as follows. He was born in 1801, most likely in Rosemary Lane. The name on his marriage record is Eliezer Lazar Birmingham.
His parents , Leizer/lazarus Hart and Rachel are known on their death records as Leizer Birmingham and Rachel Birmingham.
What connection they had with Birmingham is yet to be discovered. The first reference to Abraham in the Trade Directory shows
him at 23 Rosememary Lane.The entry for 1824 shows him in Rosemary Lane at the time of his daughter Rachels birth on 21/1/1824.He had married Isabella, maiden name unknown in 1806 in London. I would hazard a guess that his marriage took place at the
Great Synagogue of London.Rachel wes either a late child or there were other unrecorded children. The 1841 census shows Rachel
with her parents in Rosemary Lane. After that she vanishes.She might be somewhere under her Hebrew name Rakela. There are four
other reference to Abraham as a hatter at 112 Rosemary Lane , 1830,1834,1836,and 1839. Have you come across the possible
connection to Birmingham circa 1743 to 1752, or Rachel (Rakela) Hart before?
Regards
Rockyboy

[phillip]

Unfortunately none of the data I have posted indicates any connection between our lines. The names mean nothing to me and currently they have no link to my Hart or other lines. Unless you have more detailed data to link our families it appears that other than the Aaron Hart executor to Benjamin Hart there are no firm details.
I will wait and see what else you might have.
Phillip

[phillip]

Have you cross checked any of your data on the Synagogue and Cemetery Scribes sites? If you look on the sites you can see numerous records relating to Great Synagogue Marriages and there are burials and births including New Synagogue and other records including Wills and secular records. You will note in the records NSB H038 Birth Rachel Hart 1 Jan 1824 Rosemary Lane father Abraham Hebrew name Abraham b Eliezer; GSM069/2 Marriage Hyam Hart father Leib Hatter 23 June 1802 -Elizabeth Hart -father's Hebrew name Lezar.
You already know about these records but can I suggest you look carefully at the Will records and use the Advanced facility on the site for checking Hebrew names against the data you hold. I can't see a Gt Syn Record for the marriage of Abraham but you may need to check further. Since I have the records of both my Hart lines I cannot see any links at present with your lines but as I stated before it is possible they relate via the siblings of my 4x great grandfather Benjamin and my 4x great grandfather Henry.
Phillip

[phillip]

I note on the London Gazette Archives 27 Feb 1838 the Court of Insolvent Debtors- Prisoners:
Abraham Hart formerly of Rosemary Lane Middlesex Hatter then of Chatham Street New York USA Hatter and late of Rosemary Lane Middlesex.

This record suggests that Abraham may have been in one of the London Debtor's Prisons. He had also been in America as the record indicates.
Phillip

[phillip]

On Post 4 of this topic you mentioned Abraham Hart b 1801 who was transported and died in Australia in 1851. The data on Abraham Hart - hatter of Rosemary Lane who was married to Isabella and had a daughter does not match any Convict Transportation Record I have seen.
The 1841 Census ( Crown Copyright, TNA)HO107 716 12 16 25 Rosemary Lane records:
Abraham Hart 44 Hatter; Isabella Hart 35; Rachel Hart 15 all born in County.
Reference to the Old Bailey Online trials and England and Wales Criminal Registers 1791-1892 records 2 Abraham Hart who were transported:
Abraham Hart b abt 1788 age 22 trial 17 April 1810; Abraham Hart b abt 1791 age 25 Trial Sept 1816

Neither of these 2 records relate to Abraham Hart of Rosemary Lane -hatter. So, who is the Abraham Hart transported you refer to? Have I missed a record or is your Abraham Hart transported someone else?
Phillip

[rockyboy]

Phillip.
Sorry my mistake. The convict was Ashers son Lazarus, born in Portsmouth in 1810. He was tried
in the Old Bailey and transported on the SS York arriving in Sydney on the 7/2/1837. You can read the full transcript of his trial on tne Old Bailey Online Site.
Regards
Rockyboy

[phillip]

Peter
I have seen your many other postings elsewhere including your links to the Rabbi Meyer Rintel and his son Rabbi Moses Rintel. You might want to 'flesh out' the various links to include the Hart relationships. My Henry Hart line does relate via marriage to the family of the Chief Rabbi Dr Nathan Hart via the marriage of Henry Solomon ( son of Bella Hart and Josiah Solomon- Bella is a daughter of Henry and Phoebe Myers) to Frances Solomon ( 1st cousins marrying). Nathan Adler is the uncle of Frances. There are other links via marriage to Adler. I include this data briefly because I know the German and Dutch connections on the lines.
Similarly, on my Benjamin Hart line via his daughter Rosa and her marriage to Henry Moses there are connections via further marriages in this line of descent to the Gluckstein ( who connect to the Lyon's tea rooms family) and the Joseph/Phillips lines including albeit distantly to Coleman Joseph ( Coenraad Saammes) from whom Nigella Lawson descends. I have not posted on these lines not least because there is a lot of data most of it not based on my own research so I am cautious about sharing data not verified fully.
Phillip

[phillip]

The following information may help both Peter, myself and others begin to make sense of the various relationships between the Hart clothes salesmen; hatters and tailors who were living and trading in Rosemary Lane and Hollywell St from the early 1800s and earlier.
In previous postings Peter had asked about information linking his Hart lines to Birmingham and the will of Benjamin Hart who died in 1852 ( see Posting on 'Benjamin Hart will summary- died 1852 London'.
I have looked again at a range of data on the Benjamin Hart lines and noted that is the 1851 Census HO 107 1546 171 21 ( Crown Copyright, TNA) at 127 Rosemary Lane St Mary Whitechapel that there is a Benjamin Hart Unmarried 69 Hatter b Birmingham.
He is living with ( the record is very poorly written and it is difficult to make out names and other information) Abraham Levi tobacconist and his family but also George Davis is a visitor with his wife Julia and relatives including a Frances Mark? Widow 51 b Middx and her sister Rosetta u a cap maker
Nb If anybody can help transcribe the data more accurately I would appreciate it.

The Benjamin Hart at the Rosemary Lane address may be the same person who died in 1852 and left a will but did not refer to a wife or children.

However, in the 1841 Census HO 107 716 12 1523 ( Crown Copyright, TNA) at Rosemary Lane there is:
Benjamin Hart 55 Hatter b in county
Mary Hart 45 b in county
Lawrence Hart 4 b in countyy

Is he also the same person in the 1851 census and the person who left a will - it appears that Mary was his wife and Lawrence his son- did they die pre 1851 or is he another hatter with the same name living in the same area?

The website ' London Lives 1690-1800' which contains thousands of records to individuals has the record: Middlesex Sessions- Justice's Working Documents Actions, suits and bonds and includes the record against Elizabeth Hart wife of Benjamin Hart hatter 11 Sept 1793 Parish of St Paul Shadwell Middlesex. Elizabeth in the law case was released ( including her relatives) from any further action by Esther Williams spinster

The same site contains a further record relating to Benjamin Hart Holywell Street salesman 1818- Westminster Poll Books. Votes in Westminster Elections 1749 1820- this record refers to my 4x great grandfather.

It would seem likely that the Benjamin Hart hatter who appears in Pigot 1827-1828 at 122 Rosemary Lane is the same person who appears in the 1851 Census and is the Benjamin Hart in the 1852 will -but this needs confirmation.

There is another element to be considered and that the reference in the 1851 Census ( I will post the records later) to Rosa ( also referred to in the 1841 Census as Rosetta) Moses nee Hart wife of Henry Moses as being born in Rosemary Lane - her father is Benjamin Hart who in the various London Trade Directories appears at Hollywell St from 1807 and is a slop seller at 7 Hollywell St Holden Directory 1814. A key question is therefore whether or not this Benjamin Hart is closely related to the Benjamin Hart hatter and his line- the Rosemary Lane link between the two individuals suggests this maybe the case but further data is needed.
Phillip

[phillip]

My error regarding the 1851 Census and Benjamin Hart age 69 Hatter b Birmingham- he is living at 127 Leman St and in his will he died at 128 Leman St in 1852. The 128 Leman St address appears to be that of Joseph Leigh and his wife Elizabeth Isaacs ( this is based on Ancestry Com data). This data suggests that Benjamin Hart b abt 1782 in 1851 and the Benjamin Hart who died in 1852 are one in the same.
Phillip

[levy]

Phillip and RockyBoy, I think I am a direct descendant of the same Lazerus Hart (Lazerus Hart, Elizabeth Hart, Henry Hyam, Sarah Harriet Hart, Melanie Allemand, Lewis Levy, Leon Levy, Keith Levy, me) Lazerus is my 5th ggf I don't have much info on them but they are in my tree! I have Asher and Elizabeth as Rachel and Lazerus's children.

[phillip]

Would you like to put some brief data to the names you refer to as your ancestors to help identify the individuals and their relationship to each other. Are you seeking specific further information on the families/individuals. If so, would you like support with researching them.
Phillip

[levy]

Lazarus (Lizer Leizer Eliezer) Lewis Brimingham Hart - 1743 - 20 Jan 1800
m
Rachael 1752 - 1818

Children:

Elizabeth Hart - 1881 -
Asher Hart - 1886 - 1860

Elizabeth married
Hyam Hart (1780 - 1828) at the Great Synagogue London 23 June 1802

Children:

Henry Hyam Hart (1808 - 14 October 1880) - He is the only one I know about but I haven't looked!

Henry Hyam Hart married Ann Nancy Mordecai (1811 - 1894) in 1825 in London

Children:

Sarah Harriet (1825 - 21 July 1907)
Rachael
Sarah
Henry Hyam
Joel
Amelia
Rebecca
Lawrence
Elvina
Isabella
Benjamin
Asher


Sarah Harriet Hart married Jean Francois Allemand (1827 - 1912)

Children:

Melanie Isabelle (1866 - 1935)
Camille Auguste
Adela Caroline

If you would like more then sing out! I have lots!

[phillip]

I see on Rootschat that there are significant numbers of postings relating to the Henry Hyam Hart/Ann Nancy Mordecai family including records on BMD. One of the records indicates they arrived in Port Elizabeth March 1855. Have you seen these records and if so, which particular lines are you most interested in researching?
Phillip

[rockyboy]

Phillip and RockyBoy, I think I am a direct descendant of the same Lazerus Hart (Lazerus Hart, Elizabeth Hart, Henry Hyam, Sarah Harriet Hart, Melanie Allemand, Lewis Levy, Leon Levy, Keith Levy, me) Lazerus is my 5th ggf I don't have much info on them but they are in my tree! I have Asher and Elizabeth as Rachel and Lazerus's children.

Levy
I was looking through my old posts and realized that i had not replied to your post. You certainly are
a descendent of Lazarus and Rachel Hart. I am descended through Elizabeths line. I dont know how much you have discovered about them by now, but i have 105 pages of the Hart family tree that was given
to me. Which of their children is your line coming through?.
Rocky boy

[Dom1]

Phillip, Asher Hyam Hart is on my tree, wife Rachel (nee Joseph, my 1st cousin X4) parents, Hyams & Elizabeth (Brendel), his siblings Miriam, Edward & Isaac. are also relevant to my tree.

[rockyboy]

Dom1
You and i are both descended from Elizabeth Hart(1776-18/5/1848). Her parents were Lazarus/
Lizer/Leizer/Lewis Hart (1743-20/1/1800) and Rachel Hart(1752-17/9/1818). They lived and worked in
the second hand clothing trade in Rosemary Lane Whitechapel, now called Royal Mint Road. Rachela was
buried in Peters Court on Rosemary Lane. The great mystery is that both Lazarus and Rachel were buried
under the name of Birmingham, not Hart.As you are in the UK you might have a better chance of finding
out why this happened. Are you aware that Elizabeths brother John went to America after serving in
the Royal Navy and married Isabella Behilah Levy (1791- 1830) in New York. She came from one of the most famous Jewish families in early America. Their daughter Elvina Hart (22/10/1822- 21/5/1904) married
Rabbi Moses Rintel(1823-1880), in Melbourne in 1849. He was the senior Jewish minister in the colony
of Victoria. I have a great deal more to tell you , so pkease reply soon.
Rockyboy (Peter)

[Dom1]

Hi Peter,
no, I am not descended from any Hart.

Asher Hyam Hart (1811-1871) (son of Hyams & Elizabeth/Brendel) married my 1st cousin X4 Rachel Joseph (1818-1881).
Also, the descendants of Asher's siblings, Miriam.Edward & Isaac married various cousins of mine.

And, thank you for telling me that John Israel Hart was Elizabeth's brother, I wondered if he were related. On my tree I have him married to both Isabella Levy (of New York) and Miriam Louisa (daughter of Hyams & Elizabeth).

As a rule, I don't include unrelated people on my tree, but your Hart family married into several branches on my tree.

May I ask which of The Hart children you descend from? Perhaps we are cousins?

[phillip]

Dominic
I note on the Susser Archives "Coats of Many Colours" JCR-UK reference to John Israel Hart and his brother Benjamin. The archives records that John had a sister who married a Hart and their son Asher married Florence daughter of Joseph Hart of Northampton whose sister Katherine married Benjamin Nathan of Dover. John Israel's son Henry I Hart 1820-1884 emigrated to Australia. John Israel Hart was married twice 1 Isabella Levy 2 Miriam Hart.
On a separate note there was speculation, which I have yet to prove, in a pamphlet written by one of my Phillips/Solomon distant relatives that John and Benjamin were related to my Hart lines. My father had also mentioned our connection to the De Beer lines. There is nothing in my current research to confirm the accuracy of these speculations but I am keeping an open mind.
Phillip

[Dom1]

From what I know, and I am not a descendant, John Israel married twice, Miriam Hart was in fact his niece. Asher Hyam Hart (nephew of John Israel and son of his sister Elizabeth (Brendel) and Hyam ) born 1811 married my 1st cousin Rachel Joseph (d of Joseph Joseph and my grt...aunt Amelia (nee Nathan)

The Asher Hart who married Florence was born 1843 in Brighton, Sussex, parents Lipman Hart & Sarah (nee Benjamin) - they are not on my tree. All the trees with this Asher on show no parents for Lipman) I believe that The Susser Archives might have muddled The Harts. Perhaps Peter might be able to shed some light. These trees by the way feature Nathans, Solomon & Solomons - none of these are related to me.

Phillip do you mean De Beer diamonds? I have the Oppenheimers on my tree.

[phillip]

Dominic
My father had suggested that the De Beers diamond merchants in SA were relatives but I had also noted De Beers linked to the Hart in Australia. Like you I am very cautious about linking families without primary evidence. I have none to suggest such a link other than my Crawcour relatives and great grandfather Ernest Henry Hart settling in SA. That is not sufficient evidence so I will await my further research.
Phillip

[rockyboy]

Hi Peter,
no, I am not descended from any Hart.

Asher Hyam Hart (1811-1871) (son of Hyams & Elizabeth/Brendel) married my 1st cousin X4 Rachel Joseph (1818-1881).
Also, the descendants of Asher's siblings, Miriam.Edward & Isaac married various cousins of mine.

And, thank you for telling me that John Israel Hart was Elizabeth's brother, I wondered if he were related. On my tree I have him married to both Isabella Levy (of New York) and Miriam Louisa (daughter of Hyams & Elizabeth).

As a rule, I don't include unrelated people on my tree, but your Hart family married into several branches on my tree.

May I ask which of The Hart children you descend from? Perhaps we are cousins?

Dom 1
I am descended through Elizabeth Hart, Asher Hymans mother. That would definitly make us cousins.
All i currently know about your 1st cousin Rachel is that she married Asher Hyman in the Bridge St synagogue in Sydney in 1840 and that her parents were Joseph and Amelia Joseph and that her brother
Moses came as a convict in 1826. Anything you could tell me about their family history would be most
welcome. I have the 105 Hart family tree on an e mail. Perhaps an exchange of trees could be possible.
Regards
Rockyboy(Peter)

[Dom1]

Peter, I am not a Joseph descendant, I am a Nathan descendant, Amelia was my grt...aunt and Joseph my grt...uncle by marriage. Their son Moses Joseph (my 1st cousin x3) was the convict - he married my grt...aunt Rosetta. The history of the Joseph family in England can be found in the Susser Archives.

I am not related to Elisabeth Hart or Hyam Hart, which of their children do you descend directly from? In other words which of their children is your grt...grandfather or grandmother?

If they are Asher & Rachel (Joseph) then we are cousins.

If they are Miriam Louise (nee Hart) or Isabella (nee Levy) & John Israel,
Edward & Isabella (nee Hart)
Isaac & Rebecca (nee Benjamin)
then possibly as some of their descendants married my cousins

e.g. For John Israel Hart & Miriam Louisa Hart

Their great grand-daughters Helene & Rebecca married my cousins Orwell & Albert Phillips.

For John Israel Hart & Isabella Levy

Their grand-daughter Ada Rowland Hart marred my cousin Lionel Nathan Benjamin

For Brendel & Hyman

Their grand-daughters Beatrice & Amy married my cousins Leopold & Louis Stanley Benjamin

Other connections include Hallenstein. Michaelis, Gotthelf, Hayman & Marks. .

As you probably know from looking at your own trees many of the Australian Jewish families are connected with several siblings of one family marrying into another. It all becomes very complicated.

[rockyboy]

Dom i
Asher Hymen Hart had three brothers Henry Hyam,my g g grandfather, Edward who married his cousin Isabella Hart,
and Isaac who married Rachel Benjamin.
Regards
Rockyboy (peter0

[Dom1]

Hi Peter, the line of Henry & Ann (nee Mordechai) is not relevant to my tree, so we are in-law cousins.

[mrsandrea]

I am getting over my head with these posts but had to share this link on google books about Rabbi Rintel and a mention of a Henri J. Hart on an article entitled, :Historical sketch of the two Melbourne synagogues ... together with sermons ...There is an actual sermon of Rabbi Rintel at the New Albert Street Synagogue, East Melbourne from 1877 at this link:http://books.google.com/books?id=184NAAAAQAAJ&dq=Moses%20Rintel%20rabbi&pg=PA51#v=onepage&q=Moses%20Rintel%20rabbi&f=false

[rockyboy]

mrsanrea
Welcome to British gen, I have been doing this for sometime now and i still find it somewhat confusing at times. Do you have a particular interest in Henri J Hart? If you have you certainly come to the right place.

Regards
Rockyboy(Peter)

[rockyboy]

Dom1
Given the entanglement of their relationships we had to be connected in some way. I dont know the extent of your
knowledge but i have a massive amount of information about them and will happily exchange information with you.

Regards
Rockyboy (peter)

[terrysfamily]

Don't know is you have seen this Re: Henri J Hart

http://douglasstewart.
com.au/objects/melbourne-judaica-photographic-portrait-of-henri-j.-hart/

and this for Rabbi Moses Rintel

http://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/rintel-moses-4480

If you have then sorry, just read the last couple of posts

Terry

[guyleslie]

Philip,
I'd be very grateful if you would confirm your mention of the presence of Abraham Hart, Hatter, of Rosemary Lane in 1848, and the source. I've found no record of him post 1845, and any records you have of a later period would effect my research tremendously. Thanks.
Guy


The more data we share the better are chance of identifying a relationship between the families or not. Pigot's Directory 1838 has Abraham Hart hatter 126 Rosemary Lane and Benjamin Hart hatter 122 Rosemary Lane; Elizabeth Hart 149 Rosemary Lane both Benjamin and Elizabeth are hatters. Abraham is at the same address in 1848 and earlier between 1834-35 at 112 Rosemary Lane. For my own line I will add later some summary details on the children of Benjamin Hart but Rosa Hart his daughter married Henry Moses clothes salesman and family lived in Leman St. I will add details.
Phillip

[phillip]

Unfortunately, I have not retained the original notes on the Abraham Hart lines because they did not relate to my lines. Looking at the various trade records and JewishGen UK Data base insurance records Abraham Hart hatter 112 Rosemary Lane appears at the address until 1839. There is an Abraham Hart 126 Rosemary Lane in 1839 and Elizabeth Hart at 149 Rosemary Lane in 1839 and at 122 Rosemary Lane in 1843. Earlier on there are Henry,Lazarus, Leah Hart in the house of Hyam Hart 149 Rosemary Lane in 1826 and Hyam Hart at 149 Rosemary Lane with the note that Elizabeth Hart is a widow in 1837. There is Benjamin Hart hatter 122 Rosemary Lane dealer in clothes 1825-1850.
I cannot see in the records an 1848 for Abraham Hart but I have not cross checked all the record sources available.
The data that was posted on the lines was not always detailed and you might want to post what data you have so that others can respond.
Phillip

[guyleslie]

Phillip
Thank you. That is consistent with my research. I await some confirmatory LMA records and will post the results accordingly.
Guy