William Jarvis Eglwysilan

[crissyj]

I have a record of our ancestor William Jarvis b. Oxfordshire 1845/6 married Eliza Parker b. Cirencester 22nd Feb 1871 at the Parish church Eglwysilan. Says he is a farmer. His father also Willam and a farmer.They are on the 1871 census in Eglwysilan looks like Deniah or Dynea (think this is a cottage name) Then a son is born William Henry 5th November 1871.Same place. But I cannot find them again on 1881, 1891 census. I did find that William Henry had joined the Royal Navy at age 18 in 1889 and married in Cirencester 28th December 1898to a Sarah Edith Pointer. The certificate says he is a leading seaman and his father William as previous, a farmer.(so he would still be alive.)
Does anyone know of this family and why they would bbe in that area in 1870's. Maybe it was other family connections or farming that brought them from Oxfordshire. I did sight a death for a Eliza Jarvis in that village in 1877 but not sure if is Williams wife. I live in Australia now but if anyone that lives there has any information that would be so good.

[olliecat]

I did sight a death for a Eliza Jarvis in that village in 1877 but not sure if is Williams wife.

The Eliza Jarvis who died in 1877; well this is a transcription of the burial...

Eliza JARVIS on 28 Mar 1877 at Eglwysilan. Age 25.
Dedication: St Ilan

Also from the Glamorgan burial index, it has ...

Abode: DYNEA

From this information, it could be your Eliza Jarvis.

[olliecat]

I did find that William Henry had joined the Royal Navy at age 18 in 1889 and married in Cirencester 28th December 1898to a Sarah Edith Pointer. The certificate says he is a leading seaman and his father William as previous, a farmer.(so he would still be alive.)

Forgot to mention. An English/Welsh marriage certificate is not a reliable indicator of whether a father is deceased or not. William may not have been asked that question.

[Kevin Garrad]

Says he is a farmer.

1871 census (Reference RG10/5375/24/41 copyright and in care of TNA) has William's occupation as Labourer.

Can't find either father or son in 1881 (yet!!) but 1891 has this:

Reference RG12/2032/15/23 (copyright and in care of TNA)
6 Beeches, Cirencester, Gloucestershire

Jarvis, William Head Widower M 48 Farm Labourer b Fritwell, Oxfordshire

Also 1901 census:
Reference RG13/2111/94/36
7 Ainslie Terrace, Devonport, Devonshire

Jarvis, William H Head M 29 Leading Seaman RN b Egoysilen, Glamorganshire
Jarvis, Sarah E Wife F 28 b Cirencester, Gloucestershire
Jarvis, William H Son M 1 b Devonport, Devonshire

[crissyj]

Thank you so much for quickly replying. I was very excited to see this as I have only just joined. It does look like we are on to the correct Eliza Jarvis(nee Parker) although I am amazed that she was buried in Eglwysilan as she came from Cirencester. I suppose back then trnasport was a problem. On their marriage cert 1871 she has put age 21 residing Rhydfellin (this is next to Dynea) and William was in Ffynnonrighill but I can only trace a farm by that name. I'm wondering if she had put a false age as if that is her death then she should have been 27 by then. Maybe in Wales they had to be 21 to marry without consent? If I send for the death certificate it should tell me why (maybe in childbirth therefore giving me a sibling of William Henry to search for) Do you have the actual number of this? Thanks again.
Oh the extra message about the Welsh/English marriages (not asking about deceased) that was actually the other marriage I was talking about of the son William Henry Jarvis b 1871 and was in Cirencester 28/12/1898. They have actually put deceased in brackets for his wife's father but not for William's. So this is why I presumed him to still be alive.

[crissyj]

1871 census (Reference RG10/5375/24/41 copyright and in care of TNA) has William's occupation as Labourer.

Can't find either father or son in 1881 (yet!!) but 1891 has this:

Reference RG12/2032/15/23 (copyright and in care of TNA)
6 Beeches, Cirencester, Gloucestershire

Jarvis, William Head Widower M 48 Farm Labourer b Fritwell, Oxfordshire

Also 1901 census:
Reference RG13/2111/94/36
7 Ainslie Terrace, Devonport, Devonshire

Jarvis, William H Head M 29 Leading Seaman RN b Egoysilen, Glamorganshire
Jarvis, Sarah E Wife F 28 b Cirencester, Gloucestershire
Jarvis, William H Son M 1 b Devonport, Devonshire
Thank you Kevin. I am hoping that this is my ancestor cos if you look at the 1871 census it says born in Whitwell, Oxfordshire but I cannot find that place in that county. I had wondered about Fritwell as there are some Jarvis's around there and also in Souldern which is next on the map. However he says he is 24 and 25 on his marriage to Eliza but sometimes they told porkies. That would have made him only 44/5 by 1891 . The 1901 Devonport is definately correct for William Henry b 1871 and from then on we know all is OK. Thankls again for the quick response. Christine

[olliecat]

If I send for the death certificate it should tell me why (maybe in childbirth therefore giving me a sibling of William Henry to search for) Do you have the actual number of this?

This is the information from the index...

Deaths Mar 1877 Pontypridd 11a 220
JARVIS Eliza
Age 25

You can order the certificate through the GRO (http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/) using the index reference number. Alternatively you could order the certificate without using the index reference number, which means you could then ask them to check for certain details. For example, you might want to specify that the certificate must say "wife of William." Please bear in mind though that if you do ask them make checks, they won't send the certificate if it doesn't match exactly what you specify.


On their marriage cert 1871 she has put age 21 residing Rhydfellin (this is next to Dynea) and William was in Ffynnonrighill but I can only trace a farm by that name. I'm wondering if she had put a false age as if that is her death then she should have been 27 by then.

I saw one Eliza Parker in the 1861 census born abt 1852 in Cirencester. Do you have Eliza's father's name from her marriage certificate and have you found her in the 1861 census? That's one way of checking her age.

[Kevin Garrad]

For what it's worth, I think that Eliza was under age when she married, and being out of her home area was able to tell a little white lie about her age!

I think this is her in 1861:
Reference RG09/1781/3/1 (reference copyright, and in care of, TNA)
Barracks, Daneway, Sapperton, Cirencester

Parker, Elizabeth Head Widow F 85 Pauper b Sapperton
Parker, Elizabeth Daughter Unmarried F 41 Ag. Lab. b Sapperton
Parker, Eliza Granddaughter F 9 Scholar b Cirencester
Parker, Ann Granddaughter F 4 Scholar b Cirencester

Therefore, and this is purely guesswork, I don't think you'll find a father's name on her marriage certificate?

Mother and grandmother are on the 1851 census:
HO107/1968/8/8 (reference copyright, and in care of, TNA)
Sapperton Lodge, Sapperton

Parker, Elizabeth Head Widow F 73 Pauper (Ag lab) b Sapperton
Parker, Elizabeth Daughter Unmarried F 31 Ag Lab b Sapperton
Parker, Jane Granddaughter F 6 b Sapperton

[Coromandel]

I am hoping that this is my ancestor cos if you look at the 1871 census it says born in Whitwell, Oxfordshire but I cannot find that place in that county. I had wondered about Fritwell as there are some Jarvis's around there and also in Souldern which is next on the map.

I can't find any Oxfordshire 'Whitwell' either, whereas Fritwell definitely exists. Parish register transcripts for Fritwell St Olave are available from the Oxfordshire Family History Society.

[crissyj]

Hi Kevin Thanks for all that work. I do have a fathers name on the marriage certificate, it is James Parker (a gardener)I do agree that the granddaughter on 1861 is probably Eliza (9) and possibly Ann (4) is her sister. The unmarried daughter I would think is therefore James sister still living with her mother. And even on 1851 maybe Jane(6) is Eliza's older sister too. I shall look for James then and maybe his wife on both those census. I am puzzled what is meant by PAUPER for the old lady and also why "Barracks" is stated as the abode in 1861. Earlier is says Sapperton Lodge? sounds like one extreme to another.

[crissyj]

I had a look at that site but am not sure how to get to order as Fritwell only shows a graph of how many events took place and as William was born around 1845/6 it appears to stop at 1837 because we then have transcribed ones like freeBMD and ancestry.com I did send for one that came by email but it didn't have that area or even close by on it.

[olliecat]

I had a look at that site but am not sure how to get to order as Fritwell only shows a graph of how many events took place and as William was born around 1845/6 it appears to stop at 1837 because we then have transcribed ones like freeBMD and ancestry.com I did send for one that came by email but it didn't have that area or even close by on it.

Hi Crissy, can you clarify for us - are you wanting to order the birth certificate of William Jarvis?

[Coromandel]

Crissy, I think you are talking about the coverage charts on the Oxfordshire FHS site. According to the caption, these charts
'show the detailed coverage of the Search Service Indexes for this parish. This does not necessarily represent the limits of the transcribed data for the parish.'

In the case of Fritwell there seems to be about a century's more info on the CDs than in the Search Service Indexes, with baptisms, marriages and burials up to 1951 according to the list at
http://www. ofhs.org.uk/Oxfordshire_Parish_Dates_CD.pdf

[crissyj]

Thanks for the question did I want to order William Jarvis's birth certificate. I spent all morning yesterday in my local family history library and they had a volunteer who is used to all the matters arising. He narrowed my William Jarvis born in Fritwell to a listing in the area of Bicester that takes this Fritwell in. It was for March quarter 1845 so I took a punt and ordered it online last night. Also from a set of microfishe parish details that I ordered from Welsh origin in Eglwysilan( that is why I went to the library to view them) I ordered the death of Eliza Jarvis 28 MArch 1877. So I may be getting closer. I agree that William age 48 resided in Cirencester on the 1891 census, as this is where his son William Henry says he lived on his marriage in 1898. I was surprised that he never re-married as a lot did when a wife died so young. Crissy

[Kevin Garrad]

I am puzzled what is meant by PAUPER for the old lady and also why "Barracks" is stated as the abode in 1861. Earlier is says Sapperton Lodge? sounds like one extreme to another.

Pauper means that she was receiving poor relief. There was no unempolyment money or social services in those days; she had depend on the local parish.
Looking at the original census form from 1861, the following addresses appear on the page:
Daneway Mill
Daneway
Tunnels Mouth
Barracks
Barracks

There were major engineering works going on in Sapperton & Daneway - a canal tunnel was cut through Sapperton Hill, followed by a Railway tunnel also.

I would assume that the "Barracks" refers to where originally the navvies were housed?

The 1851 census, when you look at the original forms, has no addresses at all for Sapperton.
I'm not sure where the transcriber got Sapperton Lodge from! It only appears 5 pages earlier against 1 family - John Martin, Gamekeeper

[Hollytree]

Daneway
Tunnels Mouth
There were major engineering works going on in Sapperton & Daneway - a canal tunnel was cut through Sapperton Hill, followed by a Railway tunnel also.

I would assume that the "Barracks" refers to where originally the navvies were housed?

Sapperton Lodge

I have walked along the canal towpath to the Daneway, and to the portals of the tunnel there. This bit of info from a walk description: 'Opened in 1789, the canal was built to link the Thames at Lechlade with the Stroudwater canal which connected with the River Severn...44 locks were needed to carry the canal over the Cotswolds....70 foot horse drawn narrow boats ....competition from the railway and constant leakage saw the closure of first the tunnel in 1911....
Daneway Inn was built in 1784 for the mainly Irish immigrant labourers who constructed the canal. The quantities of alcohol that they consumed and the subsequent strong language meant that seperate hostelries had to be built for them so as not to offend the local inhabitants.....'

The other end of this canal which goes below the village of Sapperton is at a public house called the Tunnel House. The portal to the canal at this end is really impressive.

The 'barracks' that are in the census you have referred to must be for the railway, which runs along the same valley. Really pretty part of Gloucestershire, the estate that owns the land is the Bathhurst estate. I have ridden and fallen off a horse there!

Anne

[crissyj]

Thank you Ann for describibg the area to me. It does sound beautiful and as I live in the "sand and sea" area of Western Australia I shall be visiting next year to check all this out. Crissyj

[crissyj]

The certificate for William JArvis b 7/02/1845 in Fringford was unfortunately not him. The parents are John and Ann. I have a definate Willam as father on Willam Junior's marriage in 1871.

[crissyj]

I now have the said death cert of Eliza Jarvis 25 March 1877 Dynea Eglwysilan and Yes it is correct, wife of William, present at death.She died in childbirth( retained placenta, and exhaustion.) How sad. Now there may be a baby to look for born that day in that house. I am hoping so.

[Peter Goodey]

I have a definate Willam as father on Willam Junior's marriage in 1871.

Sorry but you can't treat that as definite until you find some supporting evidence. Father's details on marriage certificates are unreliable. You'll find many messages on this site testifying to that fact.

Not many of my Oxfordshire ancestors' births were registered in the early years of civil registration and I'm not surprised you've hit the same problem.

I believe you're ordering some parish register transcripts - there may be a case for including Souldern in the order in view of the number of times the JARVIS surname crops up there.

When you're checking the registers remember to also look for an illegitimate birth.

[olliecat]

The certificate for William JArvis b 7/02/1845 in Fringford was unfortunately not him. The parents are John and Ann. I have a definate Willam as father on Willam Junior's marriage in 1871.

I take it this is the birth record you ordered with the wrong parents.

Births Mar 1845 Bicester 16 35
JARVIS William

This christening is a probable match for the above...

name: William Jarvis
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 23 Feb 1845
baptism/christening place: Fringford, Oxford, England
father's name: John Jarvis
mother's name: Anne
(from family search)

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


Moving on...

There is another birth record (within the Bicester registration district) ...

Births Jun 1844 Bicester 16 42
Jarvis William

I would guess that this christening could be a match for the birth...

name: William Jarvis
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 09 Jun 1844
baptism/christening place: Souldern, Oxford, England
mother's name: Caroline Jarvis
(from family search)

As Peter has pointed out, it is possible that William was illegitimate. Anyway, I thought it might be useful to look for Caroline Jarvis and this could be her in the 1841 census...

1841: HO107 Piece: 887 Book/Folio: 6/10 Page: 14 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
In Souldern
JARVIS, James 40
JARVIS, Caroline 15
JARVIS, Hannah 12
JARVIS, Elizabeth 9
JARVIS, Mary 5 1836
CARPENTER, John 65
All born Oxfordshire

Annoyingly I can't seem to find Caroline in 1851. I think she married a Charles Butler in the Dec quarter of 1851 and is in the 1861 census here.

1861: RG09 Piece: 900 Folio: 50 Page: 27 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)

There isn't a William Jarvis in the household above; but he could be here..

1861: RG09 Piece: 898 Folio: 74 Page: 15 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
Fritwell, Village
HEARN, Robert, head, widower, 45, shepherd, Fritwell Oxfordshire
JARVIS, William, lodger, 16, agricultural labourer, Souldern Oxfordshire

Now, if only I could find Caroline or William Jarvis in the 1851 census. Will have another hunt later on.

[olliecat]

I now have the said death cert of Eliza Jarvis 25 March 1877 Dynea Eglwysilan and Yes it is correct, wife of William, present at death.She died in childbirth( retained placenta, and exhaustion.) How sad. Now there may be a baby to look for born that day in that house. I am hoping so.

A possibility for a child...

Births Jun 1877 Pontypridd 11a 339
Jarvis Eliza

However, if you do decide to send off for this certificate, then I would recommend that you specify the parents names when ordering; that way you won't have to pay for the certificate if this is the child of a different couple.

[Peter Goodey]

name: William Jarvis
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 09 Jun 1844
baptism/christening place: Souldern, Oxford, England
mother's name: Caroline Jarvis

That's an interesting find. I think it would be worth getting the corresponding birth certificate or confirming the baptism register.


1861: RG09 Piece: 898 Folio: 74 Page: 15 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
Fritwell, Village
HEARN, Robert, head, widower, 45, shepherd, Fritwell Oxfordshire
JARVIS, William, lodger, 16, agricultural labourer, Souldern Oxfordshire

That looks likely!

[olliecat]

Now, if only I could find Caroline or William Jarvis in the 1851 census. Will have another hunt later on.

Have found Caroline Jarvis in 1851.

1851: Class: HO107; Piece: 1734; Folio: 5; Page: 3 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
Hanwell, Oxfordshire
Thomas Grant 72, ag labourer paup, Hanwell
James Grant 30, ag labourer, Hanwell
Caroline Jarvis, 28, unmarried, servant, housekeeper, Souldren


Now, this next part may be a bit of a mad shot, but James Jarvis (Caroline's father) has a 16 year old grandson staying with him in the 1851 census.

1851: HO107 Piece: 1729 Folio: 248 Page: 23 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
Near Mansion, Souldern
JARVIS, James, head, widower, 55, ag lab, Souldern
JARVIS, Hannah, dau, unmarried, 23, Souldern
JARVIS, Elizabeth, dau, unmarried, 19, Souldern
JARVIS, William, grandson, 16, Souldern
JARVIS, Henry, son, married 25, ag lab Souldern
JARVIS, Jane, daughter-in-law, married, 23, Fritwell
JARVIS, Sarah Ann, granddaughter, 12 mo, Souldern

However, for a grandchild to be born about 1835, then one of his children needs to be old enough. Investigating James Jarvis who was born abt 1796; this could be his marriage...

groom's name: James Jarvis
bride's name: Ann Biddle
marriage date: 14 Aug 1820
marriage place: Souldern,Oxford,England

Children of James and Ann, christened at Souldern...


William Jarvis on 06 Mar 1821
Caroline Jarvis on 24 Nov 1822
Henry Jarvis on 29 May 1825
Hannah born abt 1828 on the census - can't find her christening
Elizabeth Jarvis on 08 May 1831
James Jarvis on 13 Oct 1834
Mary Anne Jarvis on 31 Jan 1836

Assuming the children were christened close to their birth date (an assumption that is more or less borne out by their ages on the census), the eldest son would have been 15 in 1835, so it's just possible he could have had a son William. Caroline would have been 14 and again it is possible. However, I am wondering if a mistake was made on the census and William Jarvis was down as 16 years old when in fact it should have been 6. Of course, the danger here is in trying to fit the information to suit. If this is a different William, then I wonder where he is in the later census.

[crissyj]

Yes I did see that one soon after. but as Eliza died MArch I was concerned that this birth was June. Is that just the registration date as William may have been delayed of course due to his wife's death. The mystery is still that none of them William and 3 children are on the 1881 census. I tried the grandparents (Eliza Parker of Cirencester) but I am only just learning who Williams family are so possibly they were there.

[crissyj]

Peter thankyou for your input too. I fianlly am getting somewhere with this.

[olliecat]

Yes I did see that one soon after. but as Eliza died MArch I was concerned that this birth was June. Is that just the registration date as William may have been delayed of course due to his wife's death.

Hi

Eliza died on 25 March 1877. If the child was born around this date, then the parents had six weeks in which to register the birth. The birth posted above was in the June quarter, which means the birth was registered sometime between the beginning of April and the end of June. We can't tell exactly which month - April, May or June - just from the index.

[crissyj]

Hi Olliecat
I answered earlier on the above reply from you. Now I see that you also had found the same as me and decided on the same theory.I was about to tell you that I saw the one of Caroline in Hanwell. That sounds correct but a bit of a handful to leave a widowed man of 55 with a 6 year old. Mind you her brother , wife and baby were also there. This is wonderful. Now I am wondering if William b 1844 to Caroline just used the name of William as his father on the marriage cert to Eliza Parker in Egwylsilan, Glamorgan. Maybe he was not told anything different about Caroline not being married. I thought though on a marriage the fathers whom were present and witnessed the marriage had their name listed. So if they had died then it said "their name "deceased" I noticed the fathers went in to the signing watching the royal wedding on Friday!! If I send for the birth does that mean it could say just Caroline on it.

[olliecat]

Now I am wondering if William b 1844 to Caroline just used the name of William as his father on the marriage cert to Eliza Parker in Egwylsilan, Glamorgan. Maybe he was not told anything different about Caroline not being married.

If William was illegitimate, he may have made up a father's name on marrying in order to avoid any embarrassment. He may have chosen the name William, (since it is his own name) but he could have chosen any name he liked. The church clerk would ask the bride and groom in turn for the name of their father; each would supply a name; the clerk would write it down. That's it! There were no checks on this. Another possibility is that although he was illegitimate, his mother may have told him that his father's name was William.


I thought though on a marriage the fathers whom were present and witnessed the marriage had their name listed. So if they had died then it said "their name "deceased" I noticed the fathers went in to the signing watching the royal wedding on Friday!!

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. :D Apart from the bride and groom, only the witnesses signed the register and the witnesses did not have to be the parents. Also, even if a father was deceased, it still might not have the word deceased on the certificate because the question may not have been asked. Some clerks either forgot to ask the question or just didn't bother.


If I send for the birth does that mean it could say just Caroline on it.

Assuming this is the correct birth registration for the William born to Caroline...

Births Jun 1844 Bicester 16 42
Jarvis William

... it may indeed only have the mother's name.