Where in Penderyn are they?

[olliecat]

Wasn’t sure whether to post this in Glamorgan or Breconshire since Penderyn is right on the border.

I’ve been trying to figure out exactly where Jenkin and Margaret Jenkins were living in 1841. I know that Margaret (widowed) was living in Hirwaun ten years later; however I can’t quite figure out where they were in 1841. Although the census says Lower Penderyn I have looked around that area on modern maps and cannot find a single one of the streets listed in the census. I’m probably being dim!

Here’s a list of streets I cobbled together by going through the 1841 census. Jenkin and Margaret were living at the Golden Lion, Mill St. I looked for the pub but can only find one in Aberdare.

Census ref: HO107; Piece 1367; Book: 13; Folio: 16; Page: 24; (crown copyright, care of the TNA)

Big Row
Big House
Stable Row
Archer Row
Upper Yard Row
Lower Yard Row
Cokeguard House
Machine House
Pandy
Tabernacle
River Cottage
Mill St (Golden Lion)
Back St
Garden House
Tabernacle Alley
Mill St
Kendon Gate Houses
Mill St
Pnty? River
Mill St

Does anyone have an older map of that area or know where any of these streets are?

The reason I’m trying to narrow down the place is so I can narrow down a death cert for Jenkin Jenkins. I have a couple of possible death/burials in mind but Jenkins is such as needle/haystack type name.

[jannic]

Hi Olliecat,

I live just outside of Aberdare and know Penderyn pretty well, but none of the streets/houses ring any bells for me. Check out the following link for Aberdare library (nearest town to Penderyn) if they have anything there of interest PM me and I'll go along on one of my days off and photocopy etc. I can also get to Penderyn for photo's.

http://www.rhondda-cynon-taf.gov.uk/stellent/groups/public/documents/hcst/content.hcst?lang=en&&dDocName=009883&xNodeID=437

"Aberdare Library has a separate reference and local studies library. Its collections cover the Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough with Aberdare Library specialising on the Cynon Valley. The collection contains books, newspapers, periodicals, maps, plans, directories, illustrations and ephemera. Census returns and Electoral Registers are amongst the many records available for people researching their family history."


The nearest registry offices for Penderyn would be Pontypridd or Merthyr if that helps narrow down your death cert.

All the best
Jan

[olliecat]

Thanks for respodnding jannic.

I guess the reason the location is bugging me is I can't find a single street that's listed in the census. I've looked at both Penderyn and Hirwaun. The enumerators descriptions says this ..


Description: That part of the lower division of Penderin adjoining the Hirwaun works.

By mistake I ordered an incorrect death certificate for Jenkin Jenkins. I typed in the wrong year on the GRO form -1853. (His wife was a widow in 1851 - DuH!). :mad2:
Anyway - the certificate came and it had Mill Street, Aberdare. So that set me wondering - two different Mill Streets, one in Penderyn, one in Aberdare! Also a Golden Lion pub in Aberdare.
To complicate matters, there is another death record for a Jenkin Jenkin for 1845 but the place of residence is stated as Aberdare. However a matching burial record for this Jenkin Jenkin says Hirwaun.

I will check out that link you posted a little later on, thank you. Perhaps something there will unmuddy the waters.

[Mutley]

British History on line has quite a description of the place

Quote: "On Hîrwaun common are the Penderin iron-works, forming part of the very extensive establishment of Messrs. Crawshay, of Cyvarthva"

www.
british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=47876

[Mutley]

I searched on google for Messrs Crawshay, ended up on Genuki and from there went all over, finally finding a list of the streets.

www.
alangeorge.co.uk/STREETS.htm

Mill Street is mentioned though not where in relation to the other streets but you may find a map if you keep digging, I know I passed one before I found the streets but lost it. :(

P.S. I have had to edit the link because working back through the other pages they have a shop.
I found a list of pubs and the Golden Lion, Mill Street is there.

[Kevin Garrad]

Just out of interest - the original name of Trecynon was Heol-y-Felin, or Mill Street.

Googling, I have found references to Mill Street in Aberdare, Trecynon and Hirwaun!
Take a look at the local government pages for Rhondda-Cynon-Taf (webapps.rhondda-cynon-taff.gov.uk/heritagetrail/cynon/cynonmap.htm).

GENUKI has a 1858-1859 Commercial Directory for Merthr Tydfil transcribed, which includes Aberdare.
Under Taverns & Public Houses there are 2 Golden Lions - Hirwaun and Trefcynon.
A Jenkin Jenkins of Hirwaun is listed uner Grocers & Drapers.

[olliecat]

Thanks for your help Mutley. I was looking for a list of streets for 1841. Although I think that the Mill St listed on that web page is in Merthyr. However, it does have street names for Penderyn which I shall look at to see if I can match any from my list.

I found a link to the National Archives Historical Streets Project and another to their street index for 1841 but the pages aren't loading.

The place where Jenkin and Margaret were living in 1841 was Lower Penderyn district 19. I've just had a look at the next enumeration district 20. It's only 8 pages long. The description for district 20 is ...


The whole of the lower division of Penderyn excepting that adjoining the Hirwaun Works.

I'm in the middle of making a list of street names for this adjoining district but the street names are in thick writing and have mad Welsh street names. (I am Welsh by the way but I think I've become anglicised - NO I will resist!!)
A couple of the street names - Lamb Inn and Red Lion suggest that district 20 is modern day Penderyn. Modern maps show a Lamb Road and a Red Lion Inn.

I'm beginning to think that Lower Penderyn district 19 is actually in modern day Hirwaun rather than Penderyn. As far as I can make out, Hirwaun Works was bang in the middle of Hirwaun.

[olliecat]

That's interesting Kevin.

So if district 19 is modern day Hirwaun then that would match the Golden Lion in Hirwaun listed in the 1858-1859 Commercial Directory. The pub is being run by a chap called Edmund Slade at this time. Pity there isn't a directory for the early 1840's. Wonder if the pub still exists.

That Jenkin Jenkins you found under Grocers and Drapers living in Hirwaun - I think my Jenkin was deceased by the time of this publication.

Off to look at that link you gave me.

[Kevin Garrad]

Olliecat,

Just found something else interesting!
If you google for "Golden Lion" Hirwaun, you get a reference to a property sales site for Crescent View Bungalow, Johns Lane.
I won't quote the URL as it's a commercial site, but I can PM it if you ask nicely!!

Anyway, on the page, bottom right, it says (about John Street, Hirwaun) "As well as this, The Golden Lion is a tempting option for those living on Johns Lane, as it has the convenience of being located just a short distance away on Swansea Road."

Can't find it anywhere else though - maybe the website is a few years old?

[olliecat]

I can see both John Street and Swansea Road on the map. Oooh - am I getting close. Yes Kevin please PM the link |bowdown| |bowdown| |bowdown|

I think I've also spotted Pandy Street (from my list). Maybe they razed the whole area along with Hirwaun Works and rebuilt. Reading all the links everyone has kindly provided it seems that Hirwaun Works was on the North Bank of the River Cynon. Can't see the river on Google's satellite map though - what on earth have they done with a whole river?

[Mutley]

Reading all the links everyone has kindly provided it seems that Hirwaun Works was on the North Bank of the River Cynon. Can't see the river on Google's satellite map though - what on earth have they done with a whole river?

Wikipedia thinks it is still around
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Cynon

[olliecat]

Ahaa - I've found it. It was lurking.

It crosses the Swansea Road and snakes down and across The Heads of the Valley Road.

[olliecat]

Thanks to everyone who has helped. I now have a clearer idea of where Jenkin Jenkin was living in 1841.

One last question. Does this burial record look good for Jenkin Jenkin of the Golden Lion?


Jenkin Jenkin. Buried on 29 Oct 1845 at St John's, Aberdare. Abode: Hirwaun.

I'm debating whether to buy the death certificate.

[jannic]

ollicat,

My offer of visiting the library and taking photo's still stands as all of the locations are within a couple of miles of me.

Jan

[olliecat]

Thank you Jan, that’s so kind of you and very much appreciated. I will PM you. Having someone willing to take photos etc. is - well it's a treasure.

This morning I’ve been trying to figure out where his wife Margaret was living in 1851 and 1861. The 1861 census is unhelpful since it just says Hirwaun for every single residence – so I’m ignoring that.
I’m looking at the 1851 census right now and she is living next to Hirwaun Castle? Wouldn’t have thought Hirwaun had a castle – hmm! – however, I haven’t finished the street list as yet. I did notice a road called Mount Pleasant. However, Mount Pleasant is quite near to that Mill Street in Aberdare. Oh dear! :stuart:

[olliecat]

Have figured out that Hirwaun Castle was probably The Castle Inn in Cwmdare (used to be part of Hirwaun) – I think it’s no longer there. Gosh they had a lot of pubs in these small hamlets.

Jan - I rang up Aberdare library and spoke to a nice lady and she said she would check to see what old maps they had of the area and let me know.

[Kevin Garrad]

Oliecat,

That directory I mentioned before has, under Taverns & Public Houses, the "Hirwaun Castle". So that could be in Aberdare?

[olliecat]

Kevin. I'm so darned confused with this area at the moment. Reading the history of Hirwaun/Cwmdare/Trecynon - these hamlets have changed/developed a fair bit over the past 150 years and I imagine a lot of streets have either vanished or changed names.

I've decided to have a go at making a map of my own. May take me a day or so but I will post it up (provided it doesn't turn out to be a dog's dinner that is.) If I can pinpoint where I think Jenkin and Margaret were living then perhaps Jan can take some photos of these areas (regardless of what they may be called today.)

[Kevin Garrad]

That could be an arduous task!
There was a lot of building when the ironworks and colleries opened.

Looking at the street view on google, there appears to be a lot of redevelopment recently.

I used to work "Up the valleys" so I know that from the 1970's onwards, a lot of old housing was cleared and more modern housing built. A lot of redevelopment of "Brown Field" sites, too.

If you can get hold of a street map from those earliertimes, and compare to a modern street map, it might help.

Anyway, good luck, and have fun!

[Mutley]

I have been looking at the site old-maps.uk. It is a commercial one as the maps are for sale but there are several that can be enlarged on line. I can see one with St Cynogs Church and the graveyard and to the east of it is the Red Lion Inn.

I just wondered if you could find the vicar in 1841 and 1851 in the area you are searching. He would presumably be in the rectory beside/attached to the church and if you are able to locate the local church with it's graveyard on a map, the nearby streets to the church (from the census) may give you an idea of where his burial was. A long shot I know but worth a try.

[olliecat]

I doubt it will be a particularly accurate map - more a sort of "here be dragons" type map.
For example - a label with "The Hirwaun Castle Inn used to be about here" - with a big arrow pointing to probable location. "The Golden Lion Inn was here" and so on. Parish boundaries for Penderyn maybe.

Thanks for your time Kevin. I'll be using all the links and info everyone posted to make my map.

[olliecat]

I have been looking at the site old-maps.uk. It is a commercial one as the maps are for sale but there are several that can be enlarged on line. I can see one with St Cynogs Church and the graveyard and to the east of it is the Red Lion Inn

Cheers Mutley - I didn't realise there was a church in Penderyn. Also I just had a look at that map and spotted a street called Trebanog (which was in the 1841 census for district 20.)

It may well be worth finding out about that church as you suggest and I will follow it up. I can't be sure at the moment if Jenkin and Margaret were buried at St John's, Aberdare or in Penderyn.

[Kevin Garrad]

Have PM'd you a website address which has details of all chapels, churches, etc.

You wouldn't be Chapel yourself would you?
"Here be Dragons" referring t the evils of drink?! :wink:

[olliecat]

Thanks for the PM Kevin.
It seems Penderyn/Hirwaun etc. has an interesting history. I will surely read this and perhaps become an expert on the area.


You wouldn't be Chapel yourself would you?
"Here be Dragons" referring t the evils of drink?!

I always thought “Here be dragons” referred to uncharted territory. Does it refer to the evils of drink too? I haven’t listed half the pubs I’ve come across for that area on this post - but there certainly were quite a lot and when I look at my list - “Here be dragons” certainly seems appropriate.

Well I’m not chapel although my ancestor Jenkin may have been. It appears that two of his children were baptized at Salem and Ebenezer and Nebo Independent, so I’m assuming he was. He was a publican and collier in 1841 (both at the same time?) Can a chapel boy also run a pub; would he have considered drink good or evil? Hmm!

Rambling now, so will stop.

[olliecat]

I’ve cobbled a rough map together but I’m rather stuck with it now. I think I’ll have to wait till Aberdare library let me know what old maps they have.
I still have zero idea where Margaret was living in 1851. Darned thing hasn’t helped a bit.

Anyway, here’s my unfinished “Here be dragons” map (http://forum.folder101.com/phpbb/images/hirwaun_1200.jpg)
And a bigger (http://forum.folder101.com/phpbb/images/hirwaun_big.jpg)version

In the meantime, can anyone determine (better than I can) where the chapels in Hirwaun were located? I keep coming across different addresses for both Nebo and Ramoth Chapels.

[Mutley]

Blimey, that is very impressive. I love it.

You are right as regards the chapels locations, I don't understand how this can be so difficult. I have loads of London maps going way back but, sadly Hirwaun is way out of my area of knowledge base. However, I have enjoyed the search, it has been interesting.

Nebo is still there, up for sale at the mo, and on the Merthyr Road but that is the name of the road now, though Merthyr Road was there in 1841.

I found this site with pictures of the chapels in the area. It does not seem to be a commercial site so I will post the link.
http://welshchapelsandchurches.org/merthyr-tydfil/index.htm

I feel that if the owner of the site has taken the trouble to take these pictures and create a web site then she must have knowledge of the history of the chapels and their locations. Maybe it is worth an email to her attaching your map and seeing if she can fill in the blanks for you.

Good Luck, you do deserve it with what you have tried to achieve.

[Kevin Garrad]

I reckon you might to get a copy of "Chapels in the Valley" by D Ben Rees - as mentioned (a lot!) on the following webpage:

home.clara.net/tirbach/HelpPagepearlsGLA4.html#AberdareCynon (no need for www)

Better still, GenUKI has a chapels database! Look under Aberdare, then Church History.

[olliecat]

Thanks Mutley and Kevin

I’ve managed to narrow down the location of the Golden Lion Inn. Spoke to Hirwaun library and they gave me the number of a very nice local family historian. She told me the inn is no longer open and but gave me the exact location. It’s on the Swansea Rd, next to the old Mill St Bridge.

Here’s a piccy (http://forum.folder101.com/phpbb/images/GoldenLion.jpg) – not sure if I can post it up but Mutley can remove the link if she thinks otherwise. :D

Well – we were pretty close in guessing where it was from the limited information we had. So thanks all.

As for the chapels – I’m still working them out. The confusion of the different addresses is probably due to street name changes. After that I will work out Margaret's location in 1851. Well hopefully anyway!

[Mutley]

The piccy looks fine to me, as long as you do not add a line underneath asking for donations to aid your research. :lol:

Keep us posted.....

[jannic]

Ollie,

I have the map! Going crosseyed over the map, using Googlemaps street view and a bit of local knowledge I can tell you the the NEBO and RAMOTH chapels are still standing although the Bethel Chapel site has been bulldozed and replaced with a small estate of souless flats. However it narrows down Jenkin and Margaret to an area just a few hundred yards in diameter. I also notice on the map that the Church in Hirwaun with a possible graveyard is a Chapel of ease ( most probably for St John's Aberdare) and therefore the burial record you have for Jenkin in c1846 is most likely the right one. I know St John's in Aberdare has a small graveyard but only the biggest monuments survive. I'm off work again all day tomorrow and if I ignore the overflowing washing basket and the mountain of dishes you should have some piccys to add to the maps.

All the best to you

Jan

[olliecat]

Wonderful Jan
Thanks so much for getting hold of an old map for me. Can’t wait to see it!
Of all my ancestors in Wales (apart from more recent one) this is the closest I’ve come to pinpointing an actual address. Usually I have to be content with a parish or if I’m lucky a street name.
May I ask about the Church in Hirwaun/chapel of rest – is that on the old map?

Being cheeky now but please ignore “overflowing washing basket and the mountain of dishes” :D

[jannic]

Hiya, yes the Chapel of ease is on the 1885 map and is still there today. On your here be dragons map it is the other side of the river from Pandy on the bend in Station Road. On googlemaps street view you get a nice view by "standing" on Station Road looking towards the High Street. I'm trying to get No.2 son to help me get a screen shot!

Jan

[jannic]

Hmm, so much for that idea! Here is a link

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Hirwaun,+Aberdare&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=11.614771,42.407227&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Hirwaun,+Aberdare,+Rhondda+Cynon+Taff,+Unite d+Kingdom&ll=51.739766,-3.510523&spn=0,0.002588&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=51.73962,-3.510682&panoid=Mqs8TIV-yvFNXdRjZSBPBg&cbp=12,90.51,,0,4.35

Sorry it's so long and I hope the mods don't delete it!

eek burnt sausages

[olliecat]

Found it Jan. Link works fine.
Now going to nose around and see if I can find Nebo and Ramoth.

[jannic]

Nebo and Ramoth are both off Merthyr Road, Nebo is by the car park and Ramoth is between there and Mill Street Bridge towards Merthyr.

Jan

[jannic]

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Hirwaun,+Aberdare&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=11.614771,42.407227&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Hirwaun,+Aberdare,+Rhondda+Cynon+Taff,+Unite d+Kingdom&ll=51.739766,-3.510523&spn=0,0.002588&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=51.73962,-3.510682&panoid=Mqs8TIV-yvFNXdRjZSBPBg&cbp=12,90.51,,0,4.35

and

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Hirwaun,+Aberdare&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=11.614771,42.407227&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Hirwaun,+Aberdare,+Rhondda+Cynon+Taff,+Unite d+Kingdom&ll=51.739766,-3.510523&spn=0,0.002588&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=51.73962,-3.510682&panoid=Mqs8TIV-yvFNXdRjZSBPBg&cbp=12,90.51,,0,4.35

[olliecat]

I don't know if Google has it in for me but the last two links keep taking me back to the chapel of rest.

Is this them? (let's hope the links work)

Nebo

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=51.738357,-3.509381&num=1&sll=51.739676,-3.511277&sspn=0.110618,0.256119&gl=uk&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=51.742895,-3.508726&spn=0,0.00825&z=17&layer=c&cbll=51.738333,-3.509393&panoid=aKi7u35pzAJRiKQjlJ4XNQ&cbp=12,32.06,,1,-4.04

Ramoth

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=51.738357,-3.509381&num=1&sll=51.739676,-3.511277&sspn=0.110618,0.256119&gl=uk&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=51.738803,-3.509552&spn=0,0.00825&z=17&layer=c&cbll=51.738894,-3.509544&panoid=1u0JK-iKIVg52kLPC7UnDQ&cbp=12,16.73,,0,-1.06

[jannic]

That's them, and Bethel would have been where the flats are around Bethel Place. Mill Street Bridge is just a little further along.

Jan

This is the flats taken from the bridge and links with the photo of the Golden Lion

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=51.738357,-3.509381&num=1&sll=51.739676,-3.511277&sspn=0.110618,0.256119&gl=uk&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=51.738803,-3.509552&spn=0,0.00825&z=17&layer=c&cbll=51.738894,-3.509544&panoid=1u0JK-iKIVg52kLPC7UnDQ&cbp=12,16.73,,0,-1.06

[Mutley]

As far as I know it is OK to link to google. Jan's links are the same, they all end with 35. Olliecat's are different.
Jan's above link is the same as Ollicat's Ramoth, both end in 06.

The Nebo one is right because I saw it on an estate agents site when I was googling before.

[jannic]

Give up, I don't know why I can't paste links anymore. If you "walk" to the flats at Bethel place so you are on the Merthyr Road with the flats on your left you should have the Glancynon Restaurant and Golden Lion on your right.

The 1885 map has all the interesting detail of the iron works, national school etc and helps put the industrial past of Hirwaun into perspective. I'm trying to download the software to get the scanner to work on my new pc. Will post when I know if this has worked (or not).

Jan

[olliecat]

Phew! That's sorted then. :D :D

According to family search, two of Jenkin and Margaret's children were baptised at Salem, Ebenezer and Nebo Independent. I was told by the records office that the Glamorgan family history society bundled the registers from these three chapels into one set. So, Nebo is probably the chapel they used.

I can understand why - it's half a minute down the road. They could have had the children baptised before breakfast got cold. :D

[olliecat]

I’d like to thank Jan for the maps she sent of Hirwaun. There are a number of streets/inns on the map that are also listed on the 1851 census and I’ve used them to pin down a rough location for Margaret Jenkin in 1851. :clap:

I’ve decided to order the 1845 Jenkin Jenkin death certificate. I’m reasonably confident it’s the right one. Even if the cert turns up with the words “NOT YOUR JENKIN” written on it at least I’ll know. Anyway, I reckon it’ll turn up with “MOST DEFINITELY YOUR JENKIN” written on it.

My next task is to find a death cert for Margaret Jenkin; much trickier since I haven’t located a burial record for her. Anyone know if FMP are going to update their version of the National Burial Index?

I did ask the GRO to search for her death for the years before 1866 (since there are no ages on the index) but they just said no match. However, I am not that confident about their search. I had one previous experience where I asked the GRO to search for a death cert where they said NO MATCH but I didn’t believe it. I decided to order the cert anyway and it matched the details I had provided almost perfectly. I was rather miffed with that.

I am now debating whether to ask the Pontypridd local office to carry out a 10 year search. I think I would have to pay for that. At this point in time I am flagging and wondering if I need her death cert. Why does it bug me that I don’t have it? :turned: