robert bruce martin family tree [Archive] - British Genealogy & Family History Forums

robert

07-09-2010, 6:12 AM

hello
trying to find my reletives of my father robert tosh martin, b1898 dublin ireland,residing in melb as a furnisher
maker, little leichart st, his father was john alexander born scotland, mother margaret marshall tosh b1875 dundee scotland, her father was a peter tosh mother elizabeth ritchie, they appear to had a pub, also elsie norma hyde was born 1903 aust, no record of her past, can you help fill in the gaps. she was roberts wife:smile5:
bob martin, queensland

Procat

07-09-2010, 8:58 AM

Hi Robert,

I have moved this post from the Introduce Yourself section of the forum. I was unsure where to place it as you cover a number of areas but in the end decided on General Scottish Family History as most of the query appeared related to Scotland.

There is a birth for an Elsie Norma Hyde in 1903 in Melbourne, Victoria registration number 27299. The parents are Arth Jas Hyde and Ethel Emily Killet. I can find nothing in the Australian indexes for this couple.

I would suggest buying the birth certificate as this will give the year and place of marriage of the parents and their ages.

You can purchase the certificate online and download it immediately.

grisel

07-09-2010, 11:57 AM

You may already have this. ScotlandsPeople have a marriage in 1893 in Angus, Scotland for John Alexander Martin and Maggie Marshall Tosh. If you buy a few credits you can download the certificate.

There is also a marriage on SP for a Peter Tosh and Elizabeth Rithie in Angus in 1865.

John, Maggie and family are also in the 1901 census for Ireland in Dublin, free to download from National Archives of Ireland.

Hope this helps.

robert

08-09-2010, 2:49 AM

hello procat
great you are helping my friend, have more on family, not able to see if john alexander died in scotland or ireland, maggie marshall tosh
wife came to aust, with robert tosh b1898, margaret ann martin b1895 also known as maggie? she married william courtney
nellie was born in 1923laurence courtney. there child could have been joyce byrne. if we can show where robert tosh died it would help
can you do a trace, will ask to get cert thanks again robert

robert

08-09-2010, 2:54 AM

hello grissell

thanks for your imput, are we able to see if robert tosh martin, died be fore coming to aust, look at what i said to procat, not sure how to get credits, usually procat and the team help me , showing me the way. hope you are able to come through

robert.

grisel

08-09-2010, 8:49 AM

Hello Robert

Scotlands People is a pay per view site. When you register you can do free searches, which is where I found the above info. Then you have to buy credits ( using a bank credit or debit card ) to view the images. Instructions are on the site and quite easy to follow.

There are a number of John Alexander Martin deaths on SP but (on a very quick search so could be wrong) none in Angus and none of correct age.

Given that the family were in Dublin in 1901 a death there is a possibility but can't spot one so far.

I don't know what Australian info you have. Have you found the family on a passenger list? Could he have died on the voyage? Have you looked for his death there? Were there any younger Martin children born there (before her second marriage?) What part of Australia did Margaret and family go to?

If you can give any more details of what you have someone here may have some more suggestions.

Will have another look at Irish sites for you.

grisel

Procat

08-09-2010, 9:25 AM

Hi Robert,

Robert Tosh Martin died in St Kilda, Victoria in 1972 age 73, registration number 1542. Parents John Alexander & Margaret Martha Tosh

robert

08-09-2010, 8:45 PM

hello grisel
all i am told was john alexander martin married margaret m tosh, in dundee 1875, they had three children, robert tosh martin b 1898
in dublin, also nellie b1898?not a twin of robert could be wrong,margaret ann 1895.they appear to be in ireland, then the mother&three
children came to melb. early 20th cent. she appears not to have married again.family dont know reason why she was alone, could he have been in riots, or a war casualty, family have no clue.
can you help. robert,ps thanks again to all

robert

08-09-2010, 8:50 PM

hello procat
yes they know all about the family, when they arrived, the missing link is john alexander, did he die at sea, would not the mother say so,did he leave the family.where was he born, why did he go to scotland,and ireland, its a mystry,how do we check passenger lists
think they came to melb guessing 1913/1920, robert the son was known in melbourne as a furnisher make in swanston st& little leichert st, which is now a high rise, thaanks for all your input.
robert,ps have a great day. still looking for william ebeinstein & mary , wont give up,

grisel

09-09-2010, 9:29 AM

Hi Robert

I have a little more information from the free indexes.

John and Maggie's marriage was in Forfar district in Angus and there is a Maggie Ann birth also in Forfar in 1894. I can't see a Nellie birth. The only Martin birth in Forfar in 1898 was a Christina.

In the Irish census 1901 (which you may have seen) Nellie is 3, born Scotland and Robert is 2, born Dublin.

If you do an advanced search in this census for Martin born Scotland then another family appear living in the same part of Dublin - a William Robertson Martin age 24, builder, wife Christina age 26, daughter Christina age 3 all born Forfarshire Scotland plus daughter Victoria May age 1 b Dublin.

Perhaps John and Williiam were brothers or related in some way? Moved to Dublin for work?

I can't find either family in Dublin in 1911. The Scottish 1911 census hasn't been released yet to see if they went back to Scotland.

I wonder if both families emigrated to Australia. If John died in Dublin his death should be registered but I'm not sure how to get to it!

Maybe someone in Australia could look for records of William Robertson Martin and family?

Hope this helps.

grisel

Procat

09-09-2010, 10:05 AM

hello procat
yes they know all about the family, when they arrived,

I'm confused. In post 4 you asked "if we can show where robert tosh died it would help can you do a trace, will ask to get cert thanks again robert" He died in St Kilda as per my post 7. Now you say they know all about the family when they arrived.

See here (http://www.access.prov.vic.gov.au/public/PROVguides/PROVguide050/PROVguide050.jsp) for information about shipping records to Victoria. However, if they know all about the family when they arrived I would assume they already have any available shipping information???

robert

10-09-2010, 3:32 AM

hello again
thank you once again, I will as bob martin if any of this rings a bell, it appears his family were silent,
not perhaps wanting to devulge the past. keep up the good work. robert

robert

10-09-2010, 3:36 AM

sorry procat, bob is a bit confussing, I am not good at getting facts right, will ask him all he knows about the family.

getting to aust, and when did they come & if they know the shipping details, sorry to be confuusing you, but you know me
always jumping the gun. take care robert

robert

10-09-2010, 7:58 AM

hello grisel

well robert martin says his grandmother arrived in melbourne in 1910 perhaps she came with the so called brother, I will ask

procat to see if he can trace the arrival? I gues you know of him as he is a great researcher.

he has patience with me, as does judy philip. with out there help I would be lost, have a nice day.

robert.

robert

10-09-2010, 8:01 AM

Procat

10-09-2010, 8:51 AM

In the 1914 Victorian Electoral Roll we have this group of people:

Martin, Christina, 14 Emmeline st., Northcote, home duties, Female
Martin, William Robertson, 14 Emmeline st., Northcote, carpenter & joiner

In the 1919 Victorian Electoral Roll:

Martin, Christina, junior, 6 Alpine gr., Pascoe Vale, tie maker
Martin Christina McConolochie, 6 Alpine gr., Pascoe Vale, home duties
Martin, William Robertson, 6 Alpine gr., Pascoe Vale, carpenter

Procat

10-09-2010, 8:58 AM

hello procat

well I am back , robert martins grand mother arrived in 1910 from dublin, perhaps she came with william robertson martin family
his wife was christina 26yrs a daughter christina 3. there is a record of them living in pascoe vale, he was a builder?
hope you can help

robert.

Unfortunately the assisted shipping records for 1910 (where they would most likely be are not on line) The unassisted records are online at the link I gave you in post 11

grisel

10-09-2010, 9:20 AM

Just to check - (am a little confused by all the Bobs/Roberts!) - do we have two (probably related) families in Australia?

1 Maggie Martin plus children Maggie Ann Martin, Robert Tosh Martin and Nellie Martin - but husband John Alexander Martin missing, poss dead. (Your family?)

2 William Robertson Martin and wife Christina and daughter Christina 3.(Bob Martin's family?)
There were 2 older children for this couple - another Christina b1898 and Victoria May b abt 1900. So they may have died?

As both William Robertson's and John Alexander's marriages are on Scotlands People, if you look up these records you can check if W R and JA were brothers as parents' names will be on certs. (Tho it is poss they were half brothers I suppose if mothers different)

Also on the LDS Family search pilot site there is a birth, John Alexander Martin, 5 Jan 1874, Forfar, parents William Martin and Mary Ann Sturrock. A possibility.

Cannot see birth of William Robertson Martin tho.

And to further check, we are hunting for a death of John Alexander Martin , poss Ireland or Australia or for any record of John Alexander Martin in Australia from 1910 on.

grisel

10-09-2010, 3:12 PM

A few more thoughts.

Looking at the Australian Electoral roll index on Anc. (sadly have no subscription so can't view record) I see William Robertson Martin in Bourke in 1914 as found by Procat above , and also Maggie Marshall Martin in Bourke in 1914 - but also a John Alexander Martin in Bourke in 1909. A wild guess but maybe John went out earlier than the others. (but could be a completely different John.)

Another thought. I know next to nothing about Aus death records - but would Maggie's death cert contain any useful info regarding husband John? Or would son Robert's?

Finally, I think I got a bit mixed up with the Christinas on my earlier post. Christina was age 3 when mother was 26 and that was in Dublin. So probably only one child Christina. Victoria May seems to have disappeared tho.

grisel

robert

10-09-2010, 8:16 PM

robert

10-09-2010, 8:24 PM

hello grisel
many thanks have asked pro cat to help in search of a landing of the family, i get so confussed and repeat useless things bear with me
without all your help & the other helping I would be lost, getting old.
to find out where john alexander died would be great. also o find his father i scotland, to see if he was a builder, as bob martin here
has a son who is. have a nice day robert

grisel

10-09-2010, 9:21 PM

Hello Robert

If you look in the 1901 Irish Census (free and very easy to do) you will see John is a carpenter in Dublin. William is a builder in Dublin.

I do suggest you register on Scotlands People and buy a few credits to download the marriage certificates mentioned already. These will give addresses, occupations and parents' names and are wonderful documents to see. Not too expensive either.

Procat

11-09-2010, 1:44 AM

A few more thoughts.

Looking at the Australian Electoral roll index on Anc. (sadly have no subscription so can't view record) I see William Robertson Martin in Bourke in 1914 as found by Procat above , and also Maggie Marshall Martin in Bourke in 1914

1914 Electoral Roll:

Martin, Maggie Marshall, 239 Brunswick rd., E B'Wick, home duties

No other Martins at this address.

1919 Electoral Roll

Martin, Maggie Marshall, 239 Brunswick rd., E B'Wick, home duties
Martin, Maggie Ann, 239 Brunswick rd., East Brunswick, machinist

- but also a John Alexander Martin in Bourke in 1909. A wild guess but maybe John went out earlier than the others. (but could be a completely different John.)

1909 Electoral Roll
Martin, John Alexander, 702 Rathdown st., N Carlton, joiner

No other Martins present at address. Disappears after this. Though may well have moved elsewhere.

Another thought. I know next to nothing about Aus death records - but would Maggie's death cert contain any useful info regarding husband John?

In theory it should tell us when and where she married - depending how much the informant knew. It will not tell us when he died however.

Procat

11-09-2010, 1:46 AM

Hello Procat

Can you trace the arrivals from ireland, 1910 that appears to be when Margaret Marshall & Robert Bruce, Maragaret Ann & Nellie came to melbourne. There could be a Martin family with them? William Robertson, Christina & daughter Christina.

Crisel thinks he could be the brother of john alexander.

Hi Robert,

As stated previously the Victorian records you need for the migration are not online and I do not have access to them.

There is this record from the U.K. end which may be a possibility but it contains very little. The Victorian records would hopefully contain more:

Date of departure: 8 July 1910
Port of departure: London
Passenger destination port: Melbourne, Australia
Passenger destination: Melbourne, Australia
Ship: ORVIETO

Martin, Mrs, Class 3, Houswife
Martin, Maggie, Class 3
Martin, Nellie, Class 3
Martin Robt, Class 3

If this is them it at least indicates the husband was not with them.

Procat

11-09-2010, 2:59 AM

Hi Robert,

I have just discoverd these names in the Index to Unassisted Inward Passenger Lists to Victoria 1852-1923. They arrived in August 1910 on the Orbieto, Port B, Fiche 806 Page 002:

MARTIN ---- MRS, Age 48
MARTIN ---- SON WITH, Age 16
MARTIN ---- SON WITH, Age 11
MARTIN ---- DAUGHTER WITH, Age 10

I know the sex of one of the kids does not match but that could be a typo. Do the ages match your information? If so, you need to find somewhere that has the actual records. Do you have a genealogical society handy or perhaps a state library?

The Victorian records MAY indicate if she was a widow or who she was going to live with

robert

11-09-2010, 5:22 AM

I'm confused. In post 4 you asked "if we can show where robert tosh died it would help can you do a trace, will ask to get cert thanks again robert" He died in St Kilda as per my post 7. Now ypu say they know all about the family when they arrived.

See here (http://www.access.prov.vic.gov.au/public/PROVguides/PROVguide050/PROVguide050.jsp) for information about shipping records to Victoria. However, if they know all about the family when they arrived I would assume they already have any available shipping information???

sorry to confusse you , bob says he knows all about his mothers family, elsie norma hyde side.
cant seem to find link in your 11 message, about passage details. robert

robert

11-09-2010, 5:29 AM

hello again

found your information sorry to be confussing, you are doing a good job, will ask bob if he wants to search records, being old he might not bother but the post in 24 seem incouraging. thanks robert

robert

11-09-2010, 5:43 AM

sorry to confusse you , bob says he knows all about his mothers family, elsie norma hyde side.
cant seem to find link in your 11 message, about passage details. robert

all is well found it silly me, bob is over the moon, keep up the good work, are we able to locate john alexanders family like parents and area they came from perhaps occupation am I asking too much

robert:confused5:

grisel

11-09-2010, 9:23 AM

all is well found it silly me, bob is over the moon, keep up the good work, are we able to locate john alexanders family like parents and area they came from perhaps occupation am I asking too much

robert:confused5:

Robert, I know it can be daunting to register on new websites especially when you have to give card details - but going to Scotland People and downloading John and Maggie's marriage certificate is the best way to get this information. It is the official site. Perhaps you can find someone to give you a hand with this.
As I already mentioned there is a possible birth record in Forfar for John on the LDS pilot site (see post no 18) with possible parents, and you can view that for free, but you do need that marriage cert to be sure. I think the minimum cost of credits is 6 british pounds, but you can look at several records for this.

Procat - well done to find Maggie and fam's arrival and thank you for looking up electoral rolls. John in 1909 looks encouraging. There are a few possibiliies for his arrival between 1901 and 1909 - something else for Robert to look at if visiting the state library.

I suppose if he died before his wife's arrival (if it is him) then the informant might not know details such as middle name or parents' names so maybe he is registered as simply John Martin. Still can't find a Dublin death.

Robert if you have any questions about Scotlands People please ask. There are lots of folks on here always happy to help.

grisel

robert

11-09-2010, 9:48 PM

hello grisel

thanks again , will ask bob martin, or I could pay using perhaps pay pal to send the fee to some one over there to help,
could that be done, getting the records, of john alexander martin & family, would be great. to find where they where living and there
occupation. robert. ps have a nice day

grisel

13-09-2010, 8:41 AM

Hello again Robert

I had a look on Scotlands People. They don't do paypal I'm afraid but take the usual cards, Visa, Mastercard etc.

It's a pity that the marriage isn't on the LDS site (at the moment anyway) as that would be free. From that site John's possible mother is Mary Ann Sturrock.

Have had no more luck in tracking his death.

Hope you are having a nice day too - it's very wet here!

robert

13-09-2010, 10:00 PM

hello grisel

well i took your advise, and joined scotlands people, it cost six pound for 30 credits, looked up name mary ann sturrock
said I had to get more credits, perhaps it takes 24 hours to process, used my visa card.
will try tomorrow, have a nice day , hot and sunny here 29deg celios? robert

grisel

14-09-2010, 7:03 AM

. ScotlandsPeople have a marriage in 1893 in Angus, Scotland for John Alexander Martin and Maggie Marshall Tosh.
.

Hi robert This is the marriage you need to start with. That will give his parents' names.

robert

14-09-2010, 10:02 AM

hello grisel

have tried to find the entry, already paid fee, used it up have paid again
cant seem to get to the site. I am looking at bands & marriages aslo the other site not looking at catholic should I
frustrating. might have to get you to look by giving you my password, could send you a private message, what do you think

robert

grisel

14-09-2010, 11:54 AM

Have sent you a pm and (I hope) explained how to get record. Please please don't waste valuable credits if you are not sure.
grisel

grisel

14-09-2010, 1:10 PM

Sent you another pm.
Hi again Robert

So now you know that John’s parents were William Martin and Mary Ann Sturrock, you can look up William and Mary Ann’s marriage in Statutory Marriages. (Looks to have been in Forfar in 1871). That certificate will give you the parents of William and Mary Ann taking you back another generation. (That will use up 6 credits)

You might also be interested in looking at 1881 census for John Martin in Angus, Forfar district.
Put in age 5-10 and second person forename Mary then there is one match – so that might be him. Census would probably give you family members.
(That will use up 6 credits)

There is also a marriage in 1897 in Forfar, Angus for William Robertson Martin and Christina (Bob’s ancestor) which would give their parents and might help in finding out if they were related to your family.
(another 6 credits…)

All the best
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.png
grisel

robert

15-09-2010, 10:11 AM

hello grisel
found marriage of william martin & mary sturrock married 1871 she died 1888,says william was a widower?there is a witness david martin
also the father thomas martin & mother janet? hard to read writing. what cert do I need next to go on. you have all down a great job
bob martin only wants the male line, his interest is all were some kind of builders. keep up the good work.
robert

robert

15-09-2010, 7:16 PM

hello grisel
well i got te death cert janet [fenton] martin d 3/2/1888 husband thos martin weaver alive at time her age 61yrs
witness to her death also was a son james martin/her parents james & m.s mitchel mother both deceased.
still need to find when thos martin died, on marriage cert mary sturrock 1871 a david was a witness there, could he be the son of janet
as he was a witness on 3/2/1888

robert

15-09-2010, 7:47 PM

hello again

a slight mistake, the witness at the death of janet martin was a james martin not david.
on the list of her children there was mary,william & ann cant see a david. something to think about.

grisel

16-09-2010, 2:54 PM

Morning Robert

So now you know that Thomas Martin probably died after 1878 but I still cannot see his death. It should be somewhere on Scotlands people! He possibly moved after Janet died.

On another tack if you can pick him up on the censuses you may get a place of birth which might possibly help in tracking a birth.
You could try the 1851/1861/1871 looking for a Thomas Martin with second person Janet in Forfar Angus. His date of birth may be sometime around 1815. These censuses are on SP but also I think now on Ancestry which you may be able to look up at your library if you don’t have a subscription.

Looking at Janet Fenton

Now you know that Janet’s mother’s maiden name was Mitchell there is this birth in LDS Family Search Pilot site (free)

Janet Fenton born 31 January 1815, christened 6 Feb 1815, Forfar
Parents James Fenton and Janet Mitchel – so that looks a very possible birth. Can also be found on Scotlands people.

There is a possible marriage Forfar 1802 for a James Fenton and Janet Mitchell also on pilot search.

IGI have 3 possible sisters for Janet Fenton – Margaret 1807, Agnes 1810 and Nancy 1819.

Looking for a birth for James Fenton (Janet’s father) may be tricky as there is another James Fenton in Forfar having children at the same time as yourJames . James Fenton seems a common name in Angus at that time.

I have family coming to visit this week so I may not be on the computer much – So please don’t think I’m ignoring you.

And good luck with your searching!

robert

16-09-2010, 6:28 PM

hello crisel

you are powering on ,many thanks do hurry its all in your time, you are amazing, parish chest should be proud.
hoping I can get photo of south st forfar, from someone who might be out there.
have a great week, school holidays here, wont bother an old batchelor like me, will dust off a few antiques have a large pre 1837
staffordshire pottery collection
robert

robert

16-09-2010, 7:32 PM

hello again grisel
got the census, 1871, not very clear, hope you can work it out, sent you a private email.
it shows male 56 fm 56.
37yr female
28yr? male widower?,14yr f/m 15yr male grandson also another 15yr male grandson 5yr old f/m if it is thos them he and janet were born 1815? also william was b1839 so when they married they could have been 24yrs old, does that make sense
hope to photo copy all the documents, and perhaps I can read them better, thos occupation looks like loom weaver
have a nice day robert

robert

17-09-2010, 5:42 AM

hello again
well i went into the census only found a william living in 123 princess st dundee 64 yrs old born forfarshire? has a 44 yr old wife jessie b?
also born forfar, must only be a room as it states two windows. no siblings ? then I went to 1891 census it show the same details
.
age and all, must be a wrong as he should be 76 if still living.

guess some one got it wrong. robert

robert

17-09-2010, 6:25 AM

hello grisel

are we able to find the parents of peter alexander tosh & his wife elizabeth ritchie parents, that will fill the gap on bob martins tree
how do we do it. ps he is happy to let thos martin go, as he feels tracing back in his tree would be difficult, what do you think
robert.

robert

17-09-2010, 10:18 AM

hello grisel
well i have located i thik thos martin daeth the census shows him in princes st dundee he is on ancetry .com as dying 1883
in 1880 he married janet butter. her relatives have him listed and a death cert, says he is from forfar so is she.
got peter a tosh details b1839/d 7/9/1899.
his mother was catherine alexander. first wife was e ritchie second margaret smith boath b 1852/d1905
david gracie tosh b 1885 went to melb on census 1914 29yrs a chaufer wife may, living 239 brunswick st melb
still need to find parents elizabet ritchie & peter a tosh grandfather robert

grisel

17-09-2010, 10:52 AM

Well Robert – a bit of a breakthrough.

The 1871 census for Thomas and Janet is the right one – address seems to be 3 Lappiedub Forfar.

I googled ‘Lappiedub Forfar’ and it came up with a Rootschat headed Martin Family with people searching your family! See if you can find it.

They have Thomas in South St Forfar in 1851 census and in Lappiedub Forfar in 1861.

But best of all they have a death for Thomas age 66 in1883 in Dundee, remarried to a Janet Butter. So if you want to check that it is a statutory death of a Thomas Martin 1883 in Angus. It will have the parents’ names and should say if previously married to Janet Fenton..

The marriage of Thomas Martin to Janet Butter is in Angus in 1880 in statutory marriages and may say if he was previously married to Janet Fenton.

fingers crossed their info is right. If so I think you have done well with the Martin line.

You will find Peter Tosh’s marriage in Statutory Marriages.
Male surname Tosh
Forename Peter
Female surname Ritchie
Forename Elizabeth
Year 1865

This record should have their parents’ names too and may lead you further back.

Oh If you look on Google maps and go into street view you can see South St. Looks as though it has been totally rebuilt though. Can’t find Lappiedub.

Amazon seem to have a book called Old Forfar by Fiona Scharlau which has old photos of the town and may give you a better feel for things back then.

Hope this helps. Have a good weekend.

grisel

17-09-2010, 10:55 AM

Our posts have crossed! And you got to his death cert. Great. I didn't know that the deaths were on ancestry as they didn't iused to be.

Isn't a good feeling when you solve a puzzle!

Jan1954

17-09-2010, 11:04 AM

Oh If you look on Google maps and go into street view you can see South St. Looks as though it has been totally rebuilt though. Can’t find Lappiedub..There is an 1845 map of Forfar (http://www.parishchest.com/index.php?cmd=viewproduct&cat=&id=P15124&pageOffset=0) available from Parish Chest that might help. :wink5:

robert

17-09-2010, 9:34 PM

hello jan

many thanks we are getting to the end of the search, just found a desendent of thos martin & his wife mary ann sturrock
he desends from her son , and has sent me the information showing the death of thos in princess st ? & all the family going back to18
century
will get a copy of forfar for bob martin the australian & last of the martin tree from thomas in melbourne.
have a nice day. robert

robert

17-09-2010, 9:42 PM

hello grisel
well I joined ancestry.com aust, they had a reletive a direct family member from mary ann sturrock, d1888 one of her sons
is his reletive, he sent me pages of the tree, showing dates, births, occupations,can email to you if I could. I think its ok
I can invite you to look at my tree there, I bit the bullet and rejoined, for a month.you are welcolme to view.
i must say they did return my fee, as it was pay now for 14day trial. then this appeared. many thanks, still need family names
of peter tosh mother & father also elizabeth ritchie parents, have a nice day robert.

robert

17-09-2010, 10:32 PM

helo grisel
looking properly at the document it shows, william martin b1838
first spouse jean ramsay m1859
second wife mary ann sturrock m1871 the informants son is from that marriage.
william died 18/11/1897 132 east hight street farfar. john alexander martin bob martins reletives is listed on a census 1881
hope this all ties in. still hope procate might locte him in australia some ware. robert ps thanks enjoy your family

Procat

18-09-2010, 12:29 AM

Still hope procate might locte him in australia some ware.

There are a number of people in Australian records with the name of John Alexander Martin.

Looking back through this thread it appears these are the correct details for John Alexander Martin: Born 5 Jan 1874, Forfar, parents William Martin and Mary Ann Sturrock.

I have checked the Victorian death indexes from 1889 to 1985 and there are no matches.

grisel

18-09-2010, 8:22 AM

Hi Robert

Am so pleased that you have found all this information and discovered a new relative too.

Now you are with Anc. you may find someone linked to the Tosh family too. If not then their marriage is on SP, details on post no 46. That will give parents. You can then go back to Ancestry again with those details and perhaps pick them up on censuses. Or maybe on a family tree. Failing that go back another generation on SP.

Procat - I was wondering - if John Martin was the one you found in 1909 and died before his wife arrived in 1910 then the death informant might not know any details of wife or parents. So maybe recorded as John Martin age b1874 Scotland or something similar. Would there be any possibilities?

My son has arrived now. So nice to see him and catch up!

Procat

18-09-2010, 1:03 PM

Procat - I was wondering - if John Martin was the one you found in 1909 and died before his wife arrived in 1910 then the death informant might not know any details of wife or parents. So maybe recorded as John Martin age b1874 Scotland or something similar. Would there be any possibilities?

There no no deaths recorded in Victoria for a John Alexander Martin in the time frame.

There is a John Alexander of parents unknown who died in Sunbury (just out of Melbourne) in 1912, number 16331, age 37 which fits. I suspect given the lack of parental information that this person died in the Sunbury Asylum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunbury_Asylum) though this is only a guess on my part.

I still think the best place for Robert to go is the shipping records for the family that I found. Hopefully it would give the marital status of the mother and who she was going to.

robert

18-09-2010, 9:35 PM

hello procat

that sound logical to me, just like my williams wife mary burridge.robert

robert

19-09-2010, 10:05 AM

hello grisel

20/6/1865 peter tosh 27yrs married elizabeth ritchie 19yrs peters father was david tosh lopper? mother catherine marshall
born 1838 children appear to be george john ann catherine
robert

robert

19-09-2010, 10:13 AM

hello grisel

correction to post 56

peters father david tosh lopper? mother catherine m alexander? elixabeths father john decd. catherine marshall mother.

robert

20-09-2010, 9:22 PM

hello again question to procat.
trying to locate george alfred hyde b1/11/1840 depfort uk
he was a grain merchant in melb, living in a mansion off white horse road, surry hills melb. died 4/8/1921 melb
trying to locate death cert, to see who his father & mother was. & where in uk.
also of his wifes family. it will finish off the martin tree, on bobs mothers side,

robert

Procat

21-09-2010, 8:21 AM

Hi Robert,

This seems to be him:

Name: HYDE, Alfd Geo
Parents: Hyde Abraham Thos & Phoebe WOOLLARD
Death Place: MELB S
Age: 80
Year: 1921
Reg Number: 11163
Event: Death

robert

21-09-2010, 8:15 PM

hello procat
well done, are we able to get his wifes name & her parents, that will finalize the search for robert bruce martin.

robert

21-09-2010, 8:23 PM

hello again
if you got the details of alfred george hyde, it must not have had his wifes name on the cert? perhaps she was dead
might a marriage cert, show it as I think they married in melb
robert

Procat

22-09-2010, 8:53 AM

The death index does not record the names of spouse or children. Only the certificate will give you that. You need the death certiifcate of Alfred or the birth certificate of a child to confirm the name of the spouse.

There is this possibility of his marriage:

Name: HYDE, Alfred George
Birth Place: DEPTFORD
Spouse: EASTMAN, Elizabeth Eleanor
Birth Place: SURREY
Year: 1873
Reg Number: 4499

and also this though unlikely:

Name: HYDE, Alfd
Spouse: BARKER, Emily
Year: 1920
Reg. Number: 12626

This is the death of the first spouse:

Name: HYDE, Elizth Eleanor
Father: Eastman Jas Mother: Rebecca WOOLFIT
Age: 69
Death Place: Carl N
Year: 1914
Reg. Number: 8896

robert

23-09-2010, 5:44 AM

hello procat
well thank you once again, that will do him, it will make his tree on both sides full.
keep up the good work

robert

robert

24-09-2010, 8:01 AM

hello to all researchers & bopeep

this is the end of my search, for the martin tree, may thanks to all, still tracing the truth of william & mary ebeinstein

parents of joseph william ebeinstein born 1856 mauritious, I wish somebody from mauritios can help me

robert

grisel

24-09-2010, 9:18 AM

Hello again Robert

Glad that you are happy with the martin tree and I've enjoyed discovering it too.

I can see David Tosh and Catherine Alexander's marriage in Dundee 1835. There are a lot of David Toshes around so getting further back could be tricky,( tho his parents should be named on his death certificate if you were able to find that).

I hope you eventually find where John Alexander Martin died - maybe if you get the shipping info for Maggie and family as procat suggested you will have a better idea if Melbourne or Dublin.

Good luck!

grisel

robert

27-09-2010, 5:04 AM

hello grisel
procat has traced a death in an asylum 1912 in melbourne, could be him look back to his search, one again thanks

robert

robert

24-04-2011, 11:28 PM

robert

25-04-2011, 10:26 AM

hello grisel
can you help me to trace
dugald cambell murray,
sargeant in royal artillary
received medals , 1914 mon star, also LS award ,he was in the royal artillary,
in action france , belgium, ireland , also raje india
have a nice day
robert

Procat

26-04-2011, 6:37 AM

hello procat

robert martin is trying to get information about his grand father, dugald campbell murray
he was a sargaent in the wars ? 1914 on he went to france, belguim,ireland, also india
he came from atholl scotland where the clan murray is to this day, or there desendents.he won the ls award, also the mons star 1914
but it appears the records could have been lost in the second ww2. are you able to find a death cert, or any army records of that time.
he was a sargeant attached to the royal artillary. hope you can guide me robert

Hi Robert,

Dugald is recorded on the Medal Roll Index cards on Ancestry as Dugald C Murray. He was awarded the 1914 Star (also known as the Mons Star) along with the British and Victory medals. He was a farrier in the 4th Brigade Royal Field Artillery, service number 15539. He went on to be a Senior Sergeant and Warrant Officer Class 2.

His army records are not on Ancestry. However, he was a soldier in 1911 so he may have been a career soldier. If this is the case and he served after 1920 his records may be with Veterans Affairs. This link (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/britisharmysoldierafter1913.htm?WT.lp=rg-3114) may be useful to you.

I have been unable to find a death record for him in England/Wales.