Clarification Concerning a Will, Please

[Lizzy9]

A few months ago I purchased a copy of an ancestor's will, the said ancestor was a quite wealthy gentleman, he bequeathed shares, yearly incomes to nieces and nephews, legacies to his housekeeper and servant, a monthly income to his former housekeeper etc. etc. also five leasehold properties plus his own house. As this is a copy of his original will obviously it doesn't state the value of his estate.

Tonight I searched the Ancestry National Probate Calendar for reference to John Smith Armitage's will; the value of his Personal Estate was £5092 19s 10d, I am assuming his personal estate wouldn't include his properties and shares; is this assumption correct? If so, is it possible to find out the full value of his estate? And where would I apply?

The copy will I got from the Archives at Wakefield.

In case you need to see what the Ancestry index entry says, the ref is: John Smith Armitage 1st Jan 1885.

Would there be any benefit to me in buying the will for 1st Jan 1885?

Thank you.

Lizzy

[Lizzy9]

.
I'd be inclined to purchase a copy just to see if there's any additional comments in the probate office entry. There just might be a possibility as well that he made a codicil to the original will in your possession

Thanks, Graham. I hadn't considered a codicil.

[pennydog]

I too have little knowlege of wills but would have thought that £5,000+ in 1850 would have been a considerable wealth (my parents bought their house in 1953 - 100 years later - for £650!). Perhaps some one who knows could advise you as to where you could convert it into the approx value today.

[Lizzy9]

Hi Pennydog,

The will is for the year 1885, not 1850. It isn't today's value I'm enquiring about, but the total value of John S Armitage's estate.

[Lizzy9]

Yes a nice amount, Graham? My great grandfather and my grandfather were beneficiaries; John S Armitage was gt grandfather's uncle. I haven't a flippin' clue what happened to the money, my grandad enjoyed a comfortable but simple lifestyle.

[Kerrywood]

is it possible to find out the full value of his estate? And where would I apply?
You should be able to get a fuller valuation from the death duty registers, which exist for the period 1796-1903 and are held at the National Archives (in IR 26). See this TNA research guide (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=107).

Unfortunately, online ordering of copies of death duty register entries from TNA is no longer possible, so you would have to visit Kew, or have someone go for you. The registers have been indexed (in IR 27), and images of this index are on Find My Past, under Births, Marriages, Deaths. The folio number given in the index has to be converted to a TNA piece number.

The death duty registers are all on film at Kew, so they are easy to access but they can be tricky to interpret. There's a separate TNA research guide (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=245) to help with that.

(Pipped to the post by notanotherminer :wink5: )

[Lizzy9]

Graham and Kerrywood,

Thanks so much for the link to TNA's guide. I'll take a look now.

Alas, a visit down South will have to wait, but one day..........

[British Viking]

A few months ago I purchased a copy of an ancestor's will, the said ancestor was a quite wealthy gentleman, he bequeathed shares, yearly incomes to nieces and nephews, legacies to his housekeeper and servant, a monthly income to his former housekeeper etc. etc. also five leasehold properties plus his own house. As this is a copy of his original will obviously it doesn't state the value of his estate.

How do the bolded bits above work? Do the yearly and monthly incomes continue for ever? Do they cease once the beneficiaries themselves pass away?

Just wondering really.......

[Lizzy9]

A few months ago I purchased a copy of an ancestor's will, the said ancestor was a quite wealthy gentleman, he bequeathed shares, yearly incomes to nieces and nephews, legacies to his housekeeper and servant, a monthly income to his former housekeeper etc. etc. also five leasehold properties plus his own house. As this is a copy of his original will obviously it doesn't state the value of his estate.

How do the bolded bits above work? Do the yearly and monthly incomes continue for ever? Do they cease once the beneficiaries themselves pass away?

Just wondering really.......

Hi British Viking,

The short answer from me is - I don't know, but I'd like to; presumably the incomes cannot go on forever.

Here's an extract from the will. 'a yearly income of five hundred pounds to my niece Ann Armitage during her natural life and after her death I bequeath the same sum of five hundred pounds to be equally divided amongst the reported natural children of my nephew Jonathan W Armitage share and share alike'.

[Lizzy9]

All I did was read and quote "ad verbatim". |book2| You don't think I had a clue what any of it actually meant do you?

It took Kerrywood to actually understand it :smile:

And there was I thinking how smart you are, Graham :smilewinkgrin:

[BeeE586]

If an inventory was taken this would list the items in his estate and give their estimated value. If the total value of his personal estate is roughly equal to the figure you have and the inventory does not include his real estate i.e. property you will need to look elsewhere for the value of his properties. I suggest you try to get a copy of an inventory.

Is a solicitor mentioned ? If so his records may have been deposited or may still be in the possession of subsequent owners of the practice. An estate of this size would I think have required some legal involvement.

Eileen

[Lizzy9]

Hi Eileen,

Many thanks for your interest in my post.

A solicitor is mentioned in the will and I think the practice still has the same name. I'll make enquiries regarding an inventory, thank you.

Lizzy

[lizone]

Hello - if you can get hold of an inventory, it's the best bit! A bit off topic, but I was very lucky to find the will of my 6 x great grandfather, Thomas Swier, from 1781 at the Borthwick Institute at York University and it seems to list every single article he owned. He wasn't a hugely wealthy man, before anyone asks - £16 - now converts to about £1000 - thanks to Graham's link.

The National Probate records are great, but don't forget the earlier Borthwick records, specially for us northern types ... :smilewinkgrin:

[Lizzy9]

Hi lizone,

Thanks for your input to the thread. I too have an eighteen century will, and yes once understood (old handwriting, and grammar) they are very comprehensive and interesting, e.g. my bed I leave to .... my wardrobe to .......

Thanks for alerting others to the Borthwick as it's a user friendly establishment to deal with, most helpful. While we're on the subject of pre 1858 wills, don't forget the TNA have wills which can be bought online for a very reasonable amount; last year I paid £3.50, not sure if pricing is still the same.

[Geoffers]

yearly incomes to nieces and nephews, legacies to his housekeeper and servant, a monthly income to his former housekeeper

How do the bolded bits above work? Do the yearly and monthly incomes continue for ever? Do they cease once the beneficiaries themselves pass away?

Unless otherwise stipulated in the will, the monthly and annual benefits paid out are during the lifetime of the recipient(s)

[DorothySandra]

His personal property would be everything that belonged to him, so it would depend on whether it was property he'd bought for himself, and it hadn't been settled on his wife as part of her dowry or marriage settlement, for example, or part of an entailed estate that automatically passed to a specified heir. It might well include land and shares that could produce the income that he was sharing out.

[Lizzy9]

Hi DorothySandra,

John Smith Armitage outlived his wife and he didn't have children.

[Guy Etchells]

Wills were for personal estate, the testament was for real estate.

Where a person has been left income that implies that there are investments or land/property that will provide income in the future without touching the capital.
Such incomes are dependant on there being revenue available to pay the income.
If there was a drop in share value such as the South Seas shares the income would dry up.
Cheers
Guy

[Lizzy9]

Thanks, Guy, for your info.

I think I'm now beginning to understand the will better. What you've said makes complete sense. My ancestor bequeathed houses and shares to his relatives, but I was unsure who inherited his own house, in view of what you've said I think the capital raised from his home also some of his shares, provided the revenue to pay the incomes.

Thank you.

Lizzy