Henry Gross, born 1888 London

[ejgray52]

Henry is my maternal grandfather; here is a brief summary:
1901 census shows him as being born in Oxford St London. He was adopted at some point by Herman GROSS, a baker born 1853 in Berlin Germany. Herman was married to Francis (nee SLOWGROVE) and at the time of the census were living at 104 Princess St, Marylebone, London. Henry had a sister, Winifred, b 1897, who may also be adopted.
Family stories tell of him finding out aged 15 and running away to join the Navy - which he did in 1903. After a long career and almost fighting in two World wars, he died in Gosport Hants in 1942.
I am keen to find out more about his birth family; all the other trees so far are back to the 1700's and I would love to add his.

[Thomasin]

I can see Henry in 1911, an Able Seaman visiting the Child family in Gosport, but I can't find him anywhere else.

Herman and Francis I spotted in 1891 (Herman b. 1856), but otherwise they seem to have evaded the census. A Herman and Mabel did turn up in 1911 with a Winifred b. 1910, but they were a much younger couple.

Wherever did you find Henry in 1901??

[Peter Goodey]

Wherever did you find Henry in 1901?

RG 13/112 f 138 p 7 (records at TNA)

Now what's the 1891 reference?

[Jellylegs]

Peter beat me to it, on FMP they are enumerated as GROSSE.

Jellylegs

[Jellylegs]

1891: RG12/100/20/35 (record held by TNA) Herman and Frances are on their own.

[georgiep]

Again another reminder not to list info between 1910 & 1912 census to pass onto people.
Your membership could b cancelled.
Don't list the year, they have peeps@

Georgiep

[Peter Goodey]

Henry had a sister, Winifred, b 1897, who may also be adopted.

It doesn't look like it...

Births Mar 1897
Gross Winifred Marjorie Marylebone 1a 588

[Peter Goodey]

Again another reminder not to list info between 1910 & 1912 census to pass onto people.

Thomasin was not replying to a request for a lookup so I believe it was perfectly in order to mention the 1911 census.

[Peter Goodey]

Henry is my maternal grandfather

Presumably Henry married. What does the marriage certificate show for his father's details?

[Mutley]

It is quite possible that Winifred is in Hillingdon in 1901, the daughter of William and Edith F Gross.

There is a William Gross on the same page for a marriage to an Edith Florence Cronin in Sep 1891 in Hampstead.
William was born in Bury St. Edmunds in abt 1854.

[Geoffers]

I believe it was perfectly in order to mention the 1911 census.

Perfectly correct

[Thomasin]

on FMP they are enumerated as GROSSE.


Didn't have my 'variants' turned on - thanks!

[Jellylegs]

Going back to the original post, I think this is the marriage of Herman and Frances that is referred to.

From the London England Marriages and Banns 1754 to 1921 on Ancestry:
Herman GROSS, 29 year old batchelor, a Baker (father Frederick Herman GROSS, a barber) married Frances Anny SLOWGROVE, 27 year old spinster (father Francis SLOWGROVE, a butler) on 18.06.1882

Jellylegs

[Jellylegs]

I thouhgt I had found Winifred as Winnie GROSCH in Orphans Houses in Bristol in 1911. However, just looked again and there is also an Elsie GROSCH there - both born Middlesex, London - so not so sure now.

Jellylegs

[ejgray52]

First of all, many, many thanks to all who have replied. Do not worry about 1900 onwards, that is covered by my own research. My main enquiry is where Henry came from... The family tell of all the paperwork being destroyed when things were found out about his adoption. The story also concerns him overhearing his adoptive mother telling a 'strange man' about it, when he arrived home one day... I imagine the birth mother of Henry was known to the Gross family - but who was she? Probably going to remain a mystery after all these years...

[Peter Goodey]

Presumably Henry married. What does the marriage certificate show for his father's details?

I'm repeating the above question.

[Mutley]

First of all, many, many thanks to all who have replied. Do not worry about 1900 onwards, that is covered by my own research.
Ah! but we need to do it also, we cannot help you unless we work back in the same way as you have. You have to accept that an answer cannot be pulled from a hat and we must follow the natural progression backwards in order to help you.


My main enquiry is where Henry came from... Probably going to remain a mystery after all these years...

An answer to Peter's question would be helpful. ;)

[AdeleE]

I agree. Every little detail can be so important. Sometimes we need to work forward, to put everything we can find into the hopper & see if/how the various pieces of a person's life can be reconstructed.
I think that I have found Henry Gross' Royal Navy record on the National Archives website, with a birthdate of 21 Jan 1888 in Marylebone. This is another little detail that could produce a match to a birth.

[ejgray52]

First of all apologies for not answering questions etc...
Here goes: Henry married my grandmother in the first quarter of 1916 in Alverstoke (Gosport)[Hampshire 2b page1147]. On my occasional visits I have been going through microfiche of the parish records, but as yet no luck. I have the original navy records - they had been kept in the family and passed on to me. The family story for Henry tells of him being delivered in the back of a 'big black car by the maid of the house, wrapped in an expensive shawl' is interesting - though I think a carriage is more likely as it was 1888! Another family member is also looking into the family history and has suggested that there may be a connection between Herman's father-in-law being a butler and the arrival of Henry... We will try for the wedding cert and see what it says. Once again thanks.

[ejgray52]

Looking at Henry's records, he was stationed at HMS Vernon, a shore base in Portsmouth from 18/1/16 to 8/7/16 and before that at Victory I (Navy barracks, also Portsmouth), which ties in with the wedding.
For those unfamiliar with the area, Gosport is the other side of the harbour from Portsmouth and about a 5 minute ferry ride away. His wife's family were there.
I remember HMS Vernon well; its gone now - replaced by a large shopping complex; Henry's first marital home in Gosport was replaced in the 70's by local authority housing and I am also tracking down any photos of the area when I visit.

[Peter Goodey]

We will try for the wedding cert and see what it says.

Yes. This is absolutely essential.

[Mutley]

Thinking a bit further about this...
If Henry was given to Herman (official adoption did not happen until the 1930s) to bring up, unless he was related, the child of a family member, his birth name would not have been Gross.

There are 30 children with the first name of Henry registered in Jan 1888 in Marylebone. A hard slog to track them all in the census. We also do not know if Winifred was a birth sister to Henry. :(

Please come back and let us know the results of the marriage certificate. It is a very interesting problem.

[AdeleE]

There are 30 children with the first name of Henry registered in Jan 1888 in Marylebone. A hard slog to track them all in the census. We also do not know if Winifred was a birth sister to Henry. :(


Further complicating this is that on the 1911 census, he indicates a birthplace of Westminster.

So 1901 = Oxford Street, London
1911 = Westminster
Naval record = Marylebone

[Mutley]

Westminster registration district is easier, there are only 5 listed as Henry. Of course he may not even have been registered as a Henry. :(

[Peter Goodey]

1901 = Oxford Street, London
1911 = Westminster
Naval record = Marylebone

That's fair enough. If it was Oxford Street, it could have been Westminster or St Marylebone.

[ejgray52]

Latest on Henry. I have found his marriage in the parish records of Alverstoke (St Mary's) and all the entries for father's name and occupation are struck through! Mum has told me a family story about him burning a lot of papers when he was younger; maybe he disowned his family....

[Clifjade]

This is from Vickie Slogrove who has a Slowgrove website on Rootsweb World Connect Project, in reply to the message re Henry Goss which I forwarded to her:
-Clif(London)
Sorry my reply has been a long time coming, but this is all I have for Henry Gross.

Born about 1889 in London. Deduced from Census

1901 Census for Civil Parish of St. Marylebone, London, England RG12/112/138/7
Ecclesiastical Parish of Emmanuel Maida Vale, Sub. Reg. Dist. Christchurch
104 Princess Street
Herman Grosse Head Mar 48 Baker Worker Berlin, Germany
Francis Grosse Wife Mar 45 Brompton Road, London, England
Henry Grosse Son 12 Oxford St., London, England
Winifred Grosse Dau 4 Edgeware Road, London, England

I have been unable to find Henry's parents or sister Winnifred on the 1911C, but found the following which may be for this Henry Grosse.

1911 Census for Gosport Hampshire. RG number: RG14 Piece:5629 Reference:RG14PN5629 RG78PN255 RD91 SD1 ED7 SN235
Registration District: Alverstoke Sub District: Alverstoke Enumeration District: 7 Parish: Alverstoke
Address: 14 Lavinia Road, Gosport, Hampshire
Child Maude Margaret Wife Mar F 37 1874 Occ:None Colchester Essex
Married 20 years. 7 children. 5 living and 2 who have died
Child Rose Patricia Daughter Single F 13 1898 None Athlone Ireland Resident
Child Percy Howard Son Single M 9 1902 None Galway Ireland Resident
Child Cyril Leonard Son Single M 4 1907 None Gosport Hants
Child Bertha Evelyn Grandchild F 1 1910 None Gosport Hants
Gross Henry Visitor Single M 23 1888 Able Seaman/Royal Navy /Worker Westminster London
The house had four rooms. Sgd: Maud Margaret Child, Whitworth Road, Gosport.


and for his parents

Born: About. 1856 in Berlin, Germany

Married: 18 June 1882 to Anne Frances Slowgrave at the Church of St.Bartholemew the Great, London, England

Civil registration of Marriages Jun Qtr 1882 Gross, Herman married Slowgrov, Frances Anny London C. 1c 24 (England)

Parish Record
1882 Marriage solemnized in the Parish Church in the Parish of St. Bartholenew the Great, in the County of London
Page 95. Item 189
10 June 1882 Herman Gross 29 Batchelor . Occ: Baker. Abode: New Street.
Father: Frederick Herman Occ: Barber
marr
Frances Anny Slowgrove 27 Spinster. Abode: Barley Mow Passage.
Father: Francis Slowgrove. Occ: Butler
Married in the Parish church according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Established Church after Banns by me Sgd. J. Sorrell (?)
This marriage was solemnized between us Sgd. Hermann Gross and Frances Anny Slowgrove
In the presence of us Sgd. James Robinson and Barbara Annie Mumby

There were two known children of this union, Henry and Winifred

1891 Census for Marylebone, London, England RG12/100/9/20/35. Municipal Ward: Dorset Square
Registration District: Marylebone E.. Ecclesiatical Parish of Christchurch
28 Boston Place
Herman Gross Head Mar 35 Baker Germany, Berlin
Frances Gross Wife Mar 36 London, Brompton

1901 Census for Civil Parish of St. Marylebone, London, England RG12/112/138/7
Ecclesiastical Parish of Emmanuel Maida Vale, Sub. Reg. Dist. Christchurch
104 Princess Street
Herman Grosse Head Mar 48 Baker Worker Berlin, Germany
Francis Grosse Wife Mar 45 Brompton Road, London, England
Henry Grosse Son 12 Oxford St., London, England
Winifred Grosse Dau 4 Edgeware Road, London, England

and the earlier stuff for his mother

Born: 4 April 1856 (Baptised 1865)

Parish Record:
Baptisms solemnised in the Parish of St. John, Paddington in the County of Middlesex in the year 1865
Church of St. John the Evangelist
Page 200 Item #1599 19 February 1865
Frances Annie daughter of Francis and Ann Amelia Slowgrove of 5 Porchester Place.
Father's Occ: Butler.
Born 4 April 1856
Sgd. W. Cotton Risby (?)

Married: 18 June 1882 to Herman Gross at the Church of St.Bartholemew the Great, London

I did not quite understand something you have written, namely ""almost"" fighting in two World war" can you clarify please. And cana ytou give me details of his deaath record please.

I hope you find this useful. Enjoy. Vickie

PS I suppose you don't have any photographs you would like to share. I would love to have one for each of them if available. Thanks. Vickie

[ejgray52]

Many thanks Vicky; you have confirmed some of the stuff I had found and also filled in a bit more... henry served in WW1, leaving the Navy in 1929. In July 1939 he joined up again, keeping his old rank, but was invalided out on health grounds in August that year. He died in 1942 and is buried in Anns Hill cemetery in Gosport, along with his wife (my maternal grandmother) Amy nee Child. I do have a photo of them together, taken during WW1. when I get a chance, I will post it.
Do you know where Francis Slowgrove worked? I am wondering if Henry was the product of a liaison in the household...
Many Thanks