stuck at the beginning (again) u.s. query

[hepzibah]

dont know if i can ask this on british geneology forum, but as you are all so good at problem solving- i thought it was worth a try!

i am trying to find my paternal grandparents line, which is reputed to go back to a famous american civil war general. i have looked at the official trees but the surname i am looking for doesnt jump out at me- cant see it at all. i did see papers and artifacts when i was very young, so i am guessing there is a link through cousinship or similar. all contact with this branch has died out so no-one to ask for a starting point, but i have always been fascinated by this family, as after the civil war they went across the midwest by oxen and wagon train.

does anyone have access to american records, who could look up a marriage between fred (erick?) carpenter, and his wife florence- whose surname i dont know. they were married somewhere around 1930, as my father (fred) was born in 1933. and they lived in gary, indiana. i believe florence came from lintonville indiana or that area. and possibly fred ( grandfather, was born down that way too, and went to gary as an adult, where he worked in steel manufacture.

just hoping someone can help me find a starting point, as my previous search with ancestry, and also a u.s. family research cdron set has given me no results at all- but i feel that once i have florences surname and a place of birth, i will be able to get going on this.
ggparents fred and florence, had 3 sons, fred, jack, larry, and i think there was a daughter who died as baby or was stillborn
thanks you all!!!!

[AdeleE]

On the 1930 US census, there is this family in Linton, Greene, Indiana:

Jacob A. Cox, Head, 50, married,married at age 20, b. Kansas of parents b. Kansas, manager, gas plant
Olive E. Carpenter, daughter, 20,married, married at age 18, b. Indiana of father b. Kansas & mother b. Indiana
Jacob N. Cox, son, 14, single, b. ditto
Fred J. Carpenter, son-in-law, 22, married, married at age 20, b. Indiana of parents b. Indiana, labor, drainage
560 North Main?
Linton, Greene, Indiana

On the 1920 US census, there is this familiy:

Jacob Cox, head, 40, b. Kansas of father b. Kansas & mother b. Indiana, labor, common
Olive Cox, wife, 32, b. Indiana of parents b. Indiana
Gertrude Cox, daughter, 15, b. Indiana of father b. Kansas & mother b. Indiana
Nellie Cox, daughter, 14, b. ditto
Margaret Cox, daughter, 11, b. ditto
Florence Cox, daughter, 9, b. ditto
Jacob N Cox, son, 3, b. ditto
827 Brown Street
Columbus, Bartholemew, Indiana

20 year old Olive E Carpenter on the 1930 census is 9 year old Florence on the 1920 census, so I'm inclined to think these are your great?grandparents. On the 1930 census, the enumeration may have mixed up or omitted the wife Olive, leaving 20 year old Florence listed as Olive.

[AdeleE]

If this is your grandfather's Social Security Index death listing, then we have some clues:

Name: Fred Carpenter
SSN: 311-10-6699
Last Residence: 46406 Gary, Lake, Indiana, United States of America
Born: 26 Feb 1908
Died: Jun 1971
State (Year) SSN issued: Indiana (Before 1951)

The Bloomfield - Eastern Greene County Public Library has a genealogy project section:

http://www.bloomfield.lib.in.us/library-information/genealogy-and-local-history/greene-county-genealogy-project/

On this page (pdf), birth records section > C > Carmichel - Carpenter > page 6, there is a Fred James Carpenter born Feb 26, 1908 to Robert & Eliza.
http://www.bloomfield.lib.in.us/genealogy/gcgp/birth/Birth046.pdf

I do see this famiy on the 1910 & 1920 census in Greene county Indiana, so I'll be back with more information if you can confirm that your grandfather died in 1971 in Gary, Indiana, thus putting us on the right track.

[hepzibah]

thank you both for the look-ups. not sure if it is the right ones tho'; adele's first post, because they were farmers, not living in a town. i was told they had come across from virginia and bought the farm, not bought it at a later date, but i could be wrong.( i can remember going to visit a relative in columbus, not sure if it was the grandmother of my father; she was bedridden, and didnt like me- dont think i actually saw her. not sure if she retired to a town, then, because i can definately remember stories of my grandparents remembering things the parents did on the farm) i believe they lived at a farm on r.r.1 switz city indiana, but not totally certain about switz city, as there are a lot of little towns around there, but i think this is where we had to go to collect the mail/ post.( we used to spend summers there)

ie second post, have spoken with my brother , and worked out that my grandfather fred james carpenter, died between1976 and 1979. he was a foreman at u.s. steel corperation in gary indiana. they lived at w.4th street in gary we think, and possibly the house number was 1560. lived there into the seventies we think, but then moved back to the farm on r.r.1, where my grandmother remarried- you guessed it- dont know the name of hubby, but nickname of speedy. he died and left her penniless, apparently, and she died later, not at the farm- was moved into a home. not sure of dates, as we were all living over here then, and coping with family tragedies here. will try to get a vague date of her death

i wonder if my fathers date of birth would show his parents ( as you can tell, i am useless at this geneology!) he was fred james carpenter, born jan. 11/12, 1934, we think in gary ind. died oct.16, 2003 in oxfordshire u.k. will try to get s.s.# for him- my brother is looking, unfortuneately a lot of papers got lost during brothers marriage breakup. he was a usaf retired from raf fairford.

[ET in the USA]

On Find a Grave.com there is an entry for
Fred J. Carpenter
Birth: Feb 26, 1908
Death: Jun 1971
Burial: Fairview Cemetery, Linton, Greene County, Indiana USA

There is a link to the cemetery on the entry. This ties in with the SS entry found earlier - so you might check out the location, etc. to be sure you 'don't want to keep him'.

[ET in the USA]

If someone has Ancestry access, there is a marriage for Fred J. Carpenter & ? in Lake Indiana.

[Wirral]

I think Adele has found the correct family. In 1920, Freddie CARPENTER was living with his parents, Robert & Eliza CARPENTER in Grant Township, Green County, Indiana. In the WW1 & WW2 Draft Registrations, Robert CARPENTER gave his place of residence as Switz City, Greene, Indiana. He was born 27 Sep 1880 in Grant township, Indiana & he was a farmer. In 1900, Robert CARPENTER was living with his uncle & aunt, Jacob A. HALE & Rebecca HALE. Jacob was also a farmer & was born in March 1841 in Indiana, but said that his parents were both born in Virginia.

[Wirral]

I think I have worked out the relationship to the HALEs.

Jacob HALE married Rebecca M. HIMEBROOK 27 Nov 1869 at Bloomfield, Greene, Indiana.

John CARPENTER married Mary J. HINEBROOK 5 Feb 1874 at Bloomfield, Greene, Indiana.

1880 US census Grant township, Greene county, Indiana
CARPENTER John W., 28, Farmer, born Indiana, father born Indiana, mother born Indiana
" Mary J., 25, wife, Indiana, Kentucky, Kentucky
" Eva N.[?], 5, Ind, Ind, Ind
" George F., 4, Ind, Ind, Ind
" Millie N. [?], 2, Ind, Ind, Ind

The 1880 census was taken on 9/10th June & Robert CARPENTER wasn't born until 27 September.

John W. CARPENTER may have died 3 March 1910 at Gary, Indiana or 6 Dec 1910 at Bloomfield, Indiana.

[AdeleE]

he was fred james carpenter, born jan. 11/12, 1934, we think in gary ind. died oct.16, 2003 in oxfordshire u.k. will try to get s.s.# for him- my brother is looking, unfortuneately a lot of papers got lost during brothers marriage breakup. he was a usaf retired from raf fairford.

Name: Fred J. Carpenter
SSN: 308-32-4398
Last Residence: 800 (U.S. Consulate) London, United Kingdom
Born: 11 Jan 1934
Died: 16 Oct 2003
State (Year) SSN issued: Indiana (Before 1951)

[Wirral]

Someone appears to have already done a lot of research on this family. There is a public tree on Ancestry, + 2 private trees. Pity, because I was having fun with it, but there's no point in reinventing the wheel!

[hepzibah]

adeleE -re last entry; that is definately (our father) fred- now how do i track down his parents from that? please could someone tell me what to do next- pathetic i know- my brain seems to turn to mush when i do something geneological , then eventually it starts to work!

wirral's post- thanks for your help. i really am thick, as i cant grasp the connection between adele'E s,findings and your findings... but that is down to me being a little slow at taking in the info. i need to put it on a peice of paper and cross ref. to get it to click in my head, but is the family you have found, the same family as adeleE found, or the next generation back??

not sure about the family trees on ancestry, as when i was a paid up ancestry member, i didnt get anywhere with fred's family, but i do remember seeing some tree's already done by others, but i dont think anything struck me as familiar. mind at that time i was concentrating on my mothers side of things, so may have only glanced at it, also, would only have been interested in the direct line, not in an extended tree. i will have to relook, thank you.

etinusa: thanks for your help (again!!) you were such a great help with my grandfather on his paternal side, from my mothers family, previously. dont know whether the grave you note is one of mine, as we dont know who or where the grandfather of fred is , or where he died.

i honestly think that as a family, mine are one of the most unciommunicative and apart from me, none of my reletives are interested in basically, anything that is not dite
et in usa:
te in usa: thanks for your help (again!!) you will soon know more about my family than me! after being such a great help with my mothers
et in usa; thanks for your help ( again)

[hepzibah]

sorry for that rambling post- the computer keeps jumping up to previous lines, and not allowing me to finish sentances or make corrections?? what i was saying is, none of my family members is interested in anything not directly linked to thier day to day life, and as brothers and sister much younger than me, remember less than i do. but hopefully we will get some info together. my eldest brother is going to look through a few papers that he has somewhere to see if we can find an address for fred grandfathers death/ burial, which i guess will then give a definate link to work with , and i will also speak to younger brother today to see if he knows anything. i am sorry that i am not being in any way helpful to you all who are taking the time and trouble to assist me in this, but i truly am grateful

[ET in the USA]

The jumping thing often happens to me with long posts, but seems to be cured if I switch to advanced post 'mode'.

[hepzibah]

have now written all of your info on to paper ( still an old fashioned girl with an old fashioned brain!) and although i still cant see connection of wirral's findings to adele, (are they branches of cousins?) i can definately see some similarities with what i was told as a little girl, and the information wirral has given, and it also has the virginia link; if jacob's parents were born in virginia, and he was born in 1841, then his parents would have probably been involved in the war between the states. so this really strikes a cord with me; i think this is the right family. is there any way, as you were having fun with it(!!) that you could find out about what his father was doing in the war?? i know this is a nerve of me to ask- but you are so much better at this than me!. also, i seem to recall being told that the R.E.Lee connection came through a female of the line- so someone who married a carpenter? ( mind- i could be wrong about that too as we lost touch when i was about 14- i'm nearly 60 now)

[Wirral]

On this page (pdf), birth records section > C > Carmichel - Carpenter > page 6, there is a Fred James Carpenter born Feb 26, 1908 to Robert & Eliza.
http://www.bloomfield.lib.in.us/genealogy/gcgp/birth/Birth046.pdf

I do see this famiy on the 1910 & 1920 census in Greene county Indiana, so I'll be back with more information if you can confirm that your grandfather died in 1971 in Gary, Indiana, thus putting us on the right track.

1920 US census Grant Township, Greene County, Indiana
CARPENTER Robert, head, M[arried], 39, [born] Indiana, [father born] Indiana, [mother born] Indiana, Farmer, general farm
" Eliza, wife, M, 32, Ind, Penn, Ind
" Mae, dau, S[ingle], 16, Ind, Ind, Ind
" Johnny, son, S, 15, Ind, Ind, Ind
" Mary, dau, 13, Ind, Ind, Ind
" Freddie, son, 11, Ind, Ind, Ind
" Otha, son, 10, Ind, Ind, Ind

1910 census Grant, Greene, Ind.
HALE Jacob, head, M, 70, married 46 years, no children, Ind, Virginia, Virginia, Farmer, general farm
" Rebecca, wife, M, 62, married 46 years no children, Ind, Germany, Kentucky
CARPENTER Robert, nephew, M, 29, married 7 years, 5 children, all still alive, Ind, Ind, Ind, Farmer & ditcher
" Eliza, wife, M, 23, married 7 years, 5 children, all still alive, Ind, Penn, Ind
" Mae, great niece, 6, Ind, Ind, Ind
" John, great nephew, 5, Ind, Ind, Ind
" Mary, great niece, 3, Ind, Ind, Ind
" Fred, great nephew, 2 1 [?], Ind, Ind, Ind
" Opha, great nephew, 4/12, Ind, Ind, Ind

1900 census Grant, Greene, Ind
HALE Jacob A., head, Mar, born March 1841, 59, married 36 years, no children, Ind, Vir, Vir, Farmer
HALE Rebecca, wife, Mar, born Oct 1847, age 52, Ind, Germany, Kentucky
CARPENTER Robert M., nephew, born Sep 1880, age 19, single, Ind, Ind, Ind, at school

[Wirral]

I think I have worked out the relationship to the HALEs.

Jacob HALE married Rebecca M. HIMEBROOK 27 Nov 1869 at Bloomfield, Greene, Indiana.

John CARPENTER married Mary J. HIMEBROOK 5 Feb 1874 at Bloomfield, Greene, Indiana.

John CARPENTER & Mary J. HIMEBROOK are the parents of Robert CARPENTER born 1880, the grandparents of Fred J. CARPENTER (snr)born 1908, & the great-grandparents of Fred J. CARPENTER (jnr) born 1934.
There is no 1890 census & so far I haven't found the rest of the CARPENTERS in 1900 - just Robert CARPENTER who was living with his mother's sister & her husband (Rebecca & Jacob HALE).


1880 US census Grant township, Greene county, Indiana
CARPENTER John W., 28, Farmer, born Indiana, father born Indiana, mother born Indiana
" Mary J., 25, wife, Indiana, Kentucky, Kentucky
" Eva N.[?], 5, Ind, Ind, Ind
" George F., 4, Ind, Ind, Ind
" Millie N. [?], 2, Ind, Ind, Ind

The 1880 census was taken on 9/10th June & Robert CARPENTER wasn't born until 27 September.

John W. CARPENTER may have died 3 March 1910 at Gary, Indiana or 6 Dec 1910 at Bloomfield, Indiana.

In the 1880 census, living next door to the CARPENTERS are 2 HIMEBROOK families. The HIMEBROOKs are in Grant in 1870 & in Stockton township in 1860.

1870 Grant, Greene, Ind

HIMEBROOK Frederick, 42, Farmer, $2400 real estate, $700 personal estate, born Prussia
" Mary, 51, Keeping house, Kentucky
" Joseph, 20, Works on farm, Ind
" Stephen, 19, Works on farm, Ind
" Mary, 14, Ind
" Marshal, 10, Ind
" Ellen, 8

next door +4
HIMEBROOK John M., 21, Farmer, $360 personal estate, Ind
" Elisa, 65, Keeping house, Prussia
" William, 70, Lives with son, $4800 real estate, $300 personal estate, Hanover


1860 census Stockton, Greene, Ind
Frederick H. HIMEBROOK, 32, Farmer, $1200 real estate, $515 personal estate,
Mary J. ", 41, Prussia Germany [I think this should have been on the line above]
Frederick A. HANAH [?], 21, Kentucky
Rebecca HIMEBROOK, 12, Ind
Ralph ", 10, Ind
Stephen ", 8, Ind
Mary ", 4, Ind
[male ?] ", 1, Ind

Next door
William HIMBRUK, 60, Farmer, $2060, $722, Prussia Germany
Jemima [?], 30, Prussia Germany
William ", 31, Prussia Germany
Walter [?] ", 10, Ind
Sarah ", 5, Ind

There is at least one other HIMEBROOK family, but the census is very faint.

According to the IGI, Frederick HIMEBROOK married Mary Jane or Polly HARRAH in 1848 in Greene, Indiana. He was born 1818 in Prussia, father William HIMEBROOK, mother Elizabeth KREUGER.
Also from the IGI, Mary A. HIMEBROOK born 20 Sep 1830 Preussen died 10 Feb 1879 Greene, Indiana, buried Waggoner Cemetery, Gant township, Greene, Indiana.
NB, there are no references given with these 2 entries in the IGI.

[hepzibah]

am not having much luck with my brothers- they are really quite useless- think they let life pass them by in a dream, as they remember nothing, and cant find much info.the only extra info they can come up with is " a photo fo grandfather fred's grave stone" which has on it; "fred j. carpenter 1908-1971", and an unfinished line for my grandmother "florence m. b.1910- and she was still alive when photo was taken. we also have larry d. carpenter ( my uncle- fred's brother) who died 21st jan.1994, aged 49. so just off to see if i can get farther using this extra information. pretty certain you guys found the right family for me ie robert carpenter with little freddie- hoping to get a definate link soon!

forgot to say- we dont know in which cemetary the gravestone is situated, but i think it will be in columbus, ind. or switz city!

[ET in the USA]

forgot to say- we dont know in which cemetary the gravestone is situated, but i think it will be in columbus, ind. or switz city!

My guess would be the one in Post # 5 - there is also an entry for Florence M. Carpenter 1910 - Unknown at the same cemetery. They may have gotten the info from the stone or that may be all they have on record in the office. I suggest you try to contact cemetery by phone - or PM me and I will do it since I am in the same country & have free long distance calling within the US. There an option to register on Find a Grave & request a photo, but it does not look like any of them have been filled.

[hepzibah]

my father took the photo at the funeral; it was in his effects which my brothers still have. i will have to re- look at post number 5. have spent all afternoon trawling through ancestry, and think i may have found a connection to virginia, it would be john's father, taking us back to about 1820. i would appreciate anyone who is interested, telling me whether they think it is a probable!!

we had, courtesy of wirral, i believe, john w. carpenter in 1880 census, aged 28, he and parents born in indiana, married to mary j., 25, born indiana, parents born in kentucky. i am putting his d.o.b. as 1851/52 ishdependant on the month

in the 1860 cencus there is an alexander carpenter- born in virginia, living in wayne, indiana. he is a journeyman/miller. in the cencus of 8th nov. 1850,of frederick , virginia, we have alexander carpenter, aged 30, occ. miller, married to catherine, aged 22, children; mary e.5, ann e 2 , john w. 4over 12 on original document, 0 years on the printout version, john cookus 24- cooper by trade, and mary carpenter aged 22.

i guess john is 4 monthes old, which puts his birth at august 1880. i have also found a narriage between alexander carpenter and catherine bower on the 21st of may 1840, in frederick, virginia, and in 1850 cencus there is a henry bower, farmer, aged 60, w,---blank, 56, thomas

[hepzibah]

sorry cant get the cursor to go to bottom of post again; starting again with the 1850 cencus, in frederick virginia. taken 19th sept. 1850 ; henry bower 60, farmer, then no wife, thomas, 56, ann aged 28, mary aged 20, and cathain aged 17, martha 15, susan9, john 6. not sure whether this is catherines family in frederick, but quite optimistic about alexander carpenter and catherine bower being the continuation from john, and robert. the only thing that doesnt fit is the county is different,and of course they could have moved at a later date to switz city! what do you all think?

et in usa; may take you up on that offer!! will wait to see if my sister here, can contact my sister in states- she is the only one who has a contact with her; she may know the cemetary, as she has fred ( father) whose ashes she was meant to have put in the same cemetary- instead he is still travelling around the u.s. with her ( not good at all!) what a family! plus she has the harpers ferry musket, so she may be the key.

[hepzibah]

et- have looked at post 5 you are right- thats the one! i am getting info overload- taking me a while to absorb all of it. will get my head around the himebrooks next i hope- funny i have always felt an affinity with most things german/ russian - something in the genes perhaps?