Asking a lot, but seeking Llewellyn's.

[pippycat]

I'm in need of help because I just cannot find any match with Charles LLewellyn to his father William.

I've got my g/g/g.father Charles Llewellyn b.1856 marriage cert. to Mary Ann Amos on 8/10/1902 in Swansea. Address: 119 Western St. Both Charles and his deceased father William Llewellyn were coal miners...very helpful!
Charles + Mary Ann (both widowed previously) had daug. Gwladys/Gladys b.30/1/1904 at 5 Griffith St. Pentre, Glamorgan.

On 1911 census Charles b.1855, Saundersfoot, Pembroke has son David LLewellyn b.1884 Pentre, a granddaughter Edith b.1905 Pentre + my Gwladys and 2 stepsons, George and Joseph Amos.

On 1881 census a Charles Llewellyn now b.1853, St. Issells, Pembroke is living with his brother William LLewellyn b.1855 + wife at 9 Churchfield Row, Ystradyfodwg, Glam. Does he belong to me? Ive tried to connect Charles & William with a father William but no luck.

On 1891 census Charles LLewellyn b.1853 St. Issells is married to Mary b. 1856 St. Issells and they have 1 daug. Elizabeth b. 1888 and 5 sons, one of which is David G Llewellyn b.1885 in Ystrad, Glamorgan. Could this possibly be Charles 1st marriage making this David the same one as on 1911 census?

I have found a possible death for Charles (couldn't find many that "fit") in March 1922 age 69 Pontypridd district. This would match up with him being on 1911 census and deceased by the time his daug. Gwladys maried on 10/2/1923 from 12 Lewis St. Pentre..again Pontypridd district. I hope this is same family but I could be clutching at straws as I'm getting desperate to find a match!
The spelling of LLewellyn is consistent throughout the above info. but I have searched for probably all the variations along the way at some time or another!

I can't find a 1st wife for Charles (unless somebody else agrees it might be the one on 1891 census) but my major problem has been trying to find a connection somewhere for Charles to his father William.

I know I'm virtually asking for the moon with "llewellyn" and no info. for William (other than he died B4 1902) but can anyone please help me!
Thanks for taking the time to read this. Pippycat.

[helachau]

Pippycat,
Completed a fairly lengthy post but despatch was refused since i apparently didn't have the authority to post.
Sending this as a test in the meantime and will start again

[Lizzy9]

Hi Pippycat,

It's not obvious whether you have them in 1901, I think this is them, RG13, Piece,5014, Folio,42, Page,23. (Crown copyright, in care of TNA).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You have Charles and brother William in 1881, this seems to be them in 1861.

1861. Living St Issell., all born Pembrokeshire

Mary Llewhellyn 41, widow
John Llewhellyn 18
Bettsy Llewhellyn 16
Anne Llewhellyn 14
Sarah Llewhellyn 12
Charles Llewhellyn 8
William Llewhellyn 6
James Llewhellyn 2

RG9; Piece: 4151; Folio: 83; Page: 20 (Crown copyright, care of TNA)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Same family 1851, living St Issells

Mary Lewellin 32
John Llewellin 8
Elizabeth Llewellin 6
Ann Llewellin 4
Sarah Lewellin 2

HO107; Piece: 2475; Folio: 792; Page: 30 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The only birth I can find which fits with census information.

Charles Callen Llewhelin [sic] Oct-Dec 1852, Narberth, vol 11a, page 514

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Marriages Sep 1842, Narberth, vol*26, page 707

William Llewellyn and Mary Callen

Hope this helps, good luck :smile5:

[helachau]

Pippycat,
1901 Census RG13 5014 42 23. The family includes
Chas Llewellyn, Widow, 47, Coal Hewer Below Ground, b. Saundersfoot
Dd George Llewellyn, Son, 14, Colliery Door Boy Below Ground, b. Pentre
Address 5 Griffith St, Ystradfodwg

The 1911 Census has Charles, 56, Coal Miner Hewer, b. Saundersfoot and David, 27, Coal Miner Haulier, b. Pentre

Same father and son in both???. The 1901 Ystradfodwg location links to the 1881 Census where a Charles and his brother William are living together - an age difference of 2yrs. If this link holds water you could consider the 1861 census (RG09 4151 83 20)

Mary Llewellyn, Head, Widow, 41, Colliery worker, b. St Issells
Charles Llewellyn, Son, 8, b. St Issells
William Llewellyn, Son, 6, b. St Issells
Address Woodside, St Issells and note age difference of 2 yrs 'twixt Charles/William

On the 1851 Census Ho107 2475 792 30 Mary is described as Wife, married but no sign of a husband (William possibly?)

Free BMD has the following
Marriage Sep 1842 William Llewellyn + Mary Callan Narbeth 26 707
Birth Charles Callan Llewhelin Dec 1852 Narbeth 11a 514
Birth William Llewehelin Mar 1855 Narbeth 11a 620
Birth William Llewellyn Mar 1855 Narbeth 11a 616

Hope this helps

[Lizzy9]

Hi Pippycat,

The 1861 census has John, Betsy and Ann born Amroth. You may like to consider this William as a possible in 1841. Living Amroth, all born Pembrokeshire.

james Llewellyn 60
Sarah Llewellyn 59
William Llewellyn 20 Coal Miner
David Llewellyn 18
Thomas Llewellyn 16
Benjamin Llewellyn 14
Charles Llewellyn 12
Joseph Llewellyn 10

HO107, Piece 1448, Folio 5, Page 1 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)

[Lizzy9]

And, an 1841 to consider for Mary. Living St Issells.

Joseph Callen 51
Ann Callen 40
Mary Callen 20
Elizabeth Callen 18
Heste Callen 16
Ann Callen 10
James Callen 7
Joseph Callen 1
James Nash 12

HO107, Piece 1448, Folio 24, Page 12 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)

[geneius]

On 1881 census a Charles Llewellyn now b.1853, St. Issells, Pembroke is living with his brother William LLewellyn b.1855 + wife at 9 Churchfield Row, Ystradyfodwg, Glam. Does he belong to me? Ive tried to connect Charles & William with a father William but no luck.

yes, Churchfield brow RG11 5302 90 11
Charles's eldest child JOHN b 1879 is with his grandmother at RG11 5407 71 3, included in the h/hold are another brother James, his wife and another grandson William aged 1 presume Charles's!

On 1891 census Charles LLewellyn b.1853 St. Issells is married to Mary b. 1856 St. Issells and they have 1 daug. Elizabeth b. 1888 and 5 sons, one of which is David G Llewellyn b.1885 in Ystrad, Glamorgan. Could this possibly be Charles 1st marriage making this David the same one as on 1911 census?

yes RG12 4424 29 6

I have found a possible death for Charles (couldn't find many that "fit") in March 1922 age 69 Pontypridd district. This would match up with him being on 1911 census and deceased by the time his daug. Gwladys maried on 10/2/1923 from 12 Lewis St. Pentre..again Pontypridd district. I hope this is same family but I could be clutching at straws as I'm getting desperate to find a match!
The spelling of LLewellyn is consistent throughout the above info. but I have searched for probably all the variations along the way at some time or another! not looked for

I can't find a 1st wife for Charles (unless somebody else agrees it might be the one on 1891 census) but my major problem has been trying to find a connection somewhere for Charles to his father William. Charles married Mary THOMAS 1876

I know I'm virtually asking for the moon (not really)with "llewellyn" and no info. for William (other than he died B4 1902) but can anyone please help me! William died between 1858 - 1861 hte last child James apears to have been b 1859

Thanks for taking the time to read this. Pippycat.[/QUOTE]

[geneius]

William LLEWELLYN m Mary CALLEN 1842 Narberth
if you get the marriage cert you may find she was the daughter of William & Mary CALLEN as ahown on 1841 Wales census
William maybe the son of JAmes & Sarah LLewellyn both famillies are in Amroth Pembs. ( siblings names are similar to those of their children)

1851 ref H107 2475 792 30
MAry desc a wife m collier with James 8 Ann 6 Elizabeth 4 Sarah 2

1861 RG9 4151 33 20 Woodside
Mary now a widow with the above children + Charles 8 William 6 James 2

1871 RG10 5511 11 5
Woodside St Issell
MAry + 3 younger sons

1881 RG11 5407 71 3
Mary with son James unmarried + dau in law MARY and 2 grandsons John 3 & William 1Charles's wife + children
2 other sons Charles and William at RG11 02 90 11

1891 RG12 4424 29 6

William b 1817? only appears with the his own family on the census's

Hope this helps,

geneius

[pippycat]

Lizzy9 helachau + geneius

You have all worked so hard to help me THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH.

The 1901 census address for 'Chas' Llewelyn & co. is the same one as his daughter Gwladys was born at in 1904 - why I didn't spot it B4 I don't know!
The mind is a wonderful thing when its working properly........

Yesterday I asked for a link between my 2 'troublemakers' (Charles + William) and today I've ended up with births, marriages, a timepsan for Wm death and the added bonus of heaps more information that I expected or could have hoped for - brilliant!

I'm going to order the marriage certificates for Charles to Mary Thomas and William to Mary Callan, plus the death for Charles in 1922, then I'm going to sit and wait very patiently for them to arrive!! I'm not sure why exactly, but I'm holding off on the Charles Callen Llewhelin birth certificate until I see what, if anything else I may come up with. (unless, of course you all agree it is the right one to go for).

Thank you all for taking the time and effort to help me, I'm now back to 1841 instead of stuck at 1881, so I really do appreciate all your hard work.
Kind regards from one happy Pippycat.

[geneius]

just checked Freebmd.org.uk for birth of Charles....it is filed under LLEWHELIN phonetically pronounced!

There is only one LLEWELLYN - CALLAN marriag in the period so I would expect it to be the correct cert....

I would be inclined to opt for JAMES'S birth cert.... it should indicate who the father is, and whether the father is deceased I am assuming it is WILLIAM ...if the latter then you have a very narrow time frame for the date of death of the father.....

The only one I can find is Henry JAMES 11A 613 q4 1859 Narberth and William was b q1 1855

Have a look at the death of WILLIAM snr q4 1859 11A 386.......there is another but ???timing he died 1858

Charles b 1853
plus the death for Charles in 1922 not sure this is correct if his middle name is CALLAN...the one shown is H
Interesting his death has not been linked to his birth entry...which could suggest theat there is a disparity on the info given at death...i.e year of birth, name, age etc.

[pippycat]

Further to previous post I now have the certificates for Charles & William Llewellyn.

The death for Charles Llewellyn on 24/2/1922, age 68, former Collery surface labourer (informant: son John of 10 Maindy Rd, Rhondda) is, I believe, the correct one. Even though he's gained the middle name of Herbert on death, the address at 12 Lewis St. Pentre runs through from 1901 census, 1904 his daug born + wed from there is 1923, also it happens to be where my father was born! It just has to be the right Charles.

geneius previously stated that Charles birth & death not linked through some sort of disparity - could be this middle name because the suggested birth for "Charles Callen LLewhelin" b.1852 Narberth is the only birth found for him thats a real "possible" - I've just ordered this b.cert for him to find out what it reveals.

Charles Llewellyn marriage to Mary Thomas on 26/9/1876 Parish Church of St. Issells
He is age 23, collier, address; Mountain, father: William, a collier.
Mary Thomas age 21, spinster, address: Mountain, father David Thomas, a labourer.
Witness: John Phelps & William Davies - Charles daug. married a Davies, possible connection.

William Llewellyn marriage to Mary Callen on 13/8/1842 Parish Church of St. Issells
He is "of full age", collier, residence: Parish of Amroth, father: James Llewellyn, a labourer.
Mary Callen "of full age", spinster, residence: Mountain, father: Joseph Callen, a collier.
Witness:Stephen Allen & William Gwyther - found a marriage on familysearch for Joseph Callen and Ann Gwyther on 25/4/1818 in St. Issells, possible for Mary's parents.

Neither of the certificates state if the fathers are deceased when above marriages took place, and does this Parish Church at St. Issells have a more specific name such as Saint ?something?

I'm assuming the 'Mountain' address is Sardis Mountain - why isn't there a more definite address, a street or a road name instead of just a large area?

Looks as if the info given to me previously is all very good and leading me nicely backwards in time (I'm also going from Glamorgan to Pembroke, maybe I should move counties?) Anyway, I've now got lots more leads to search and its all due to the help I was given on this forum. A massive big thank you to all who made it possible.

Just have to wait and find out about Charlie H now ! (if cert turns out to be for Charles C then I could be in trouble)
Regards from Pippycat.

[MarkJ]

Rather than start a new thread with the updated info, I have merged the latest information into the original thread to keep it all together.

Mark