Adultery, Falsification & Illegitimacy

[Blue70]

In a situation where a child has father and mother on the birth certificate but the husband of the wife is not the father and the wife has put down the husband's name to hide that fact is the child illegitimate?

Blue

[v.wells]

I am not sure what you are wanting to know? And in what era are you talking about? First you would have to: 1. Prove adultery took place ie: witnesses to the event. 2. Prove there was falsification of legal document. 3. Prove that an illegitimate child is a product of unmarried adults.

[Peter Goodey]

I'm not sure what you're asking either.

There is a presumption in law that the mother's husband is the child's father and that the child is therefore legitimate. This would have to be legally disproved to alter the position.

Was there a subsequent court case which altered the child's paternity?

[Geoffers]

In a situation where a child has father and mother on the birth certificate but the husband of the wife is not the father and the wife has put down the husband's name to hide that fact is the child illegitimate?

Just on the facts as stated, no.

But see the question asked by Peter, above

[JAP1]

Hi Blue70,


In a situation where a child has father and mother on the birth certificate but the husband of the wife is not the father and the wife has put down the husband's name to hide that fact is the child illegitimate?
Blue

How do you KNOW a) that the husband was NOT the father, and b) that the wife lied, and c) that the wife falsified the birth certificate?

What are you trying to prove, why, and what facts do you have?

Do read the post by Peter Goodey.

JAP

[Blue70]

I think my question has been answered in that the legitimacy would have to be disproved. This was never proved. The child was said by relatives to be the son of another man. The relationship between the husband and the wife broke down and a number of years later the wife set up home with the other man who was said to be the father. The son always thought he was illegitimate but his birth certificate says otherwise.

Blue

[arthurk]

Nothing to add on the legal position, but this is the kind of situation where DNA testing might be able to provide some answers. The test would need to be taken by the son (or his son), and any male relatives who are connected in an unbroken male line to either (or both) of the possible fathers, for example the possible father himself, his son, son's son, brother, brother's son, father's brother's son's son etc etc.

There are a number of threads on here about DNA testing, although I don't remember seeing the precise question that you're asking. Bear in mind that there are some labs which specialise in legal/paternity matters, and some which specialise in family history matters. If you, or someone else, is thinking of going down this route, particularly where it concerns people still alive, you need to be sure that you really want to know, and ideally decide in advance what you would do with any information that the test reveals.

Arthur

[Blue70]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. DNA testing is a good idea. There is a sister who is definitely the daughter of the wife and her second partner so she would provide a good comparison.

Blue

[arthurk]

There is a sister who is definitely the daughter of the wife and her second partner so she would provide a good comparison.

Possibly, but not for the kind of test that is usually carried out for family history purposes. In this kind, as I wrote above (possibly a bit confusingly), males can only be compared with males, and then only if there is an unbroken male connection. So the son would need to be compared with either of the possible fathers or one of their male descendants to see which one he matches.

(Another FH test involves unbroken female lines; this sort can also include a male because men inherit the necessary genetic information from their mothers, but they don't pass it on to their descendants. In your case, the son's descent from his mother isn't in question, so all that test would show is that he and his sister are children of the same mother, which you already know.)

It seems to me that you will need to look at some kind of non-FH paternity test, and you'd need to find a suitable lab and ask them if it's going to be possible. I've no idea how you'd find a lab, nor what it would cost, but I guess it won't be cheap.

Arthur

[Blue70]

Hi Arthur

Thanks for your feedback. There is an older brother who is the first man's son he could provide a better comparison if we did get the tests done.

Blue

[arthurk]

That would fit with the type of test often used in FH. You probably don't need me to remind you that in a case like this I think you need to be open and upfront with everyone who is taking the test. If it's a question which they already discuss from time to time, there may be no problem; but if people are asked to take the test without being told the full reason, you lay yourself open to the charge of keeping things from others just as much as the possible father may or may not have done.

And as I wrote before, make sure that everyone concerned is happy to hear the result and has thought about the implications for family relationships etc. Where there might be difficult things in the past, some people prefer to remain in ignorance.

Good luck!
Arthur

[Guy Etchells]

Just remember also, there is no DNA test invented that can prove paternity.
DNA can disprove paternity but it cannot prove paternity.
Cheers
Guy

[Blue70]

Thanks. I've mentioned DNA testing to family members but there doesn't seem to be the will at the moment to follow it up. At least there's now something that can be suggested when the issue comes up in family conversation.

Blue

[Nannas]

hahahahaa,
I am amused and a bit confused!!

I guess each country is different and the era may come into effect but I don't understand this..LOL
IN Australia the father listed on the birth cert HAS to sign the birth cert to state he is the father OR WILLING to take on the responsibility as the father.
How would the mother fill in her husbands name, without the husband signing??

Did the husband know the child wasn't his?? Does anyone really know if he knew or not??

Nannas

[Procat]

hahahahaa,
I am amused and a bit confused!!

I guess each country is different and the era may come into effect but I don't understand this..LOL
IN Australia the father listed on the birth cert HAS to sign the birth cert to state he is the father OR WILLING to take on the responsibility as the father.
How would the mother fill in her husbands name, without the husband signing??

Did the husband know the child wasn't his?? Does anyone really know if he knew or not??

Nannas

In the U.K the birth certificate records the full name and occupation of the father if married to the mother(or if he attended with the mother and signed the registration entry).

See here (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=84&j=1).

[JillianR]

Hi Procat

Perhaps you can answer this one for me. Someone in my family left her husband then returned to him more than a year later and about 8 months pregnant. They were still married. Is the child legally his? I think this was the case way back (1700s) but I don't know about today.

Thanks
Jillian

[Nannas]

Hi Procat

Perhaps you can answer this one for me. Someone in my family left her husband then returned to him more than a year later and about 8 months pregnant. They were still married. Is the child legally his? I think this was the case way back (1700s) but I don't know about today.

Thanks
Jillian

Jillian,
I can answer this for you...presuming we are talking Australia...
DID the husband sign the childs birth certificate???

If the husband knew and signed the birth cert,,he was agreeing to take on responsibility of the child till it turns 18yo.
If the husband did NOT sign the birth cert then no, he has no legal responsibility to the child...

It is more or less the same as adoption...or when a someone marries someone that already has children and adopts them as their children..EVEN if those people divorce the adoptive parent is still responsible to pay child support and care for those children until they are 18yo..

Nannas

Forgot to add,,,from the otherside of things...The natural father can always come back and claim visitation rights,,,BUT will be putting himself in for paying child support etc. If it is proven he knew about the pregnancy but didn't want anything to do with the baby (at first) he might find it a hard fight in court to get any rights.

[JillianR]

Thanks Nannas

I don't think anyone is game enough to ask to see that certificate but now I know how it works.

Back in 1867 I have a woman who was separated from her husband and calling herself by another man's name, gave birth to a child which she registered under her previous name with previous husband as father (it could have been his) but would he have had to sign the registration then or could she put whichever man she wanted as the father, supposing she knew who it was.......? She claims to have been remarried but I very much doubt she was.

[Procat]

Hi Procat

Perhaps you can answer this one for me. Someone in my family left her husband then returned to him more than a year later and about 8 months pregnant. They were still married. Is the child legally his? I think this was the case way back (1700s) but I don't know about today.

Thanks
Jillian

Hi Jillian,

Nannas has far more knowledge in this area than I do. :smile5:

[Procat]

Thanks Nannas

I don't think anyone is game enough to ask to see that certificate but now I know how it works.

Back in 1867 I have a woman who was separated from her husband and calling herself by another man's name, gave birth to a child which she registered under her previous name with previous husband as father (it could have been his) but would he have had to sign the registration then or could she put whichever man she wanted as the father, supposing she knew who it was.......? She claims to have been remarried but I very much doubt she was.

Which country did this occur in?

If the U.K. see this very helpful site: dixons.clara.co.uk/Certificates/births.htm#COL4 (Put http://www. at the start)

[JillianR]

It was Australia, perhaps I'll start a new thread later today for this one.

Thanks!