Erysipelas

[Mutley]

I have received a death certificate in 1912 (London) with
Erysipelas of the face given as the cause of death.

I have googled and it does not seem very nice. Diabetes, alcohol abuse, HIV, and a vagrant lifestyle are suggested though there are many well known names that seem to have been infected. Queen Victoria's John Brown amongst others.

Is it connected to any modern day skin conditions?

[MythicalMarian]

Phew - perhaps our new member can weigh in on this one, but yes, we do still have it today. It is an inflammatory rash.

For your interest, the Emperor Claudius (10BC-54AD) was a famous sufferer. :)

I am sure that death occurred through the underlying connective tissue disease or something. Calling new medical member, whose name I can't just recall...! :D

My apologies - our new member is Adnepos Iacobi.

[Mutley]

Phew - perhaps our new member can weigh in on this one, but yes, we do still have it today. It is an inflammatory rash.

For your interest, the Emperor Claudius (10BC-54AD) was a famous sufferer. :)

I am sure that death occurred through the underlying connective tissue disease or something. Calling new medical member, whose name I can't just recall...! :D

My apologies - our new member is Adnepos Iacobi.

That is why I started the thread on the quick. ;)

I wondered if it had anything to do with Psoriasis though that is not a killer?

[JAP1]

... Diabetes, alcohol abuse, HIV, and a vagrant lifestyle are suggested ...

But not as causes. Simply that people suffering from such conditions/lifestyle are at increased risk of erysipelas - as they (and people in poor health in general) are of many other medical problems.

Erysipelas is a bacterial infection caused by streptocci.

Incidentally, the cause of psoriasis remains unknown.

JAP

[margarita]

I have googled and it does not seem very nice.

I had erysipelas abut 15 years ago and can confirm that it is 'not very nice'. My face was completely swollen - like the characters French and Saunders created several years ago. I think it's fairly rare these days. One doctor didn't recognise it and thought it was a reaction to shampoo. Fortunately a second doctor did recognise it and prescribed antibiotics which cleared it up fairly quickly. Pre-antibiotics I don't think there was any treatment.

One school of thought is that humans can catch it from pigs - but as I was living in East London/Essex at the time, there weren't a lot of pigs around.

I consider myself luck to have contracted it when I did with the treatment available.

Regards,

maggie

[Peter Goodey]

Calling new medical member...

There's an appointment free next Thursday at 11.40....:D :D :D

[benny1982]

123 years ago today my great, great, great grandmother died of erysipelas aged 46 at 25 Evelyn Buildings, Holborn, London. 14 November 1886.

The death cert says she had it for 12 days but she also contracted acute bronchitis and pericarditis 3 days before she died.

[JAP1]

Hi margarita,

So sorry to hear that you had erysipelas.
It must have been really nasty.

But so glad that at least doctor #2 recognised what it was and thus treated it in accordance with modern practice!

And that, as it is a bacterial infection, you could - nowadays though not in past times when they were unavailable - be helped by antibiotics.

Not being a medical person, I don't know about catching it from pigs! But my understanding is that strep bacteria can be carried by perfectly healthy people (in such things as nasal secretions) and then can suddenly cause horrid problems like erysipelas - in others and even in the carrier him/herself - through such things as cuts to the skin especially if the person's immune system is compromised. I gather that Streptococcus bacteria can be responsible for all sorts of dreadful complaints - including puerperal fever which killed so many women until doctors (usually male) learned to wash their hands between patients (the mind boggles).

At times I think we are over-medicated - but there are certainly times when we are very very lucky indeed to live today rather than in the past.

All the best,

JAP
PS: Peter G, shades of Lucy from Snoopy - "the doctor is in". :D

[cntrygrl]

Erysipelas is caused mostly by a streptococcus bacteria, Streptococcus pyogenes (or Group A Strep). Today, this bacteria is mostly known for causing Strep throat, but also causes some other very serious infections. There was no treatment until Penicillin was invented in the 1920's. Still today, the bacteria is susceptible to Penicillin - meaning Penicillin will kill it. We are so fortunate! Swine erysipelas is caused by a completely different bacteria, Erysipelothrix rhusiopathiae.

Nadine,
Microbiology Laboratory Technologist

[cntrygrl]

Sorry - posted at the same time |blush|

[Mutley]

Thank you for the replies.
Psoriasis is supposed to be hereditary, I also wondered about eczema both being skin conditions.

From your posts though I gather they are not connected in anyway.
Thanks again.




There's an appointment free next Thursday at 11.40....:D :D :D


The receptionist said "Only available if I can visit in person" :D

[Mutley]

Sorry - posted at the same time |blush|

That's OK, it often happens ;)
Thanks for the reply, it was a good explanation that even I could understand. :D

[Jan65]

My 2xg grandfather's sister died of erysipelas in 1868, aged 30, in Scotland. It was just five weeks after she had given birth (her daughter lived) - I had found out information regarding erysipelas to give me some idea of what it was, which corresponds with what has been discussed here. Her death certificate records "Erysipelas, some days, Congestion of Brain, 2 days".

I have always wondered if she had contracted it through giving birth, or if it was just a coincidence. Does anyone know?

[JAP1]

Sorry - posted at the same time |blush|

Hi cntrygrl, If you mean you posted at the same time as moi, I can only say that I'm very pleased and very relieved that you - a professional in the field - said (so much more cogently and clearly than I) what I had been trying to say!! :)

Hi Mutley, I'm sure (says she!!) that Psoriasis has hereditary aspects. But, given that it is a chronic and non-fatal complaint (except in terribly severe cases as in 'The Singing Detective'), high-flying researchers aren't interested! I recall saying to our family GP that dermatology is a great specialisation - your patients don't die but they don't get cured. He looked a bit amazed - and then said that this was the advice that his father (also a medico) had given him!! Perhaps he wished he'd followed it!

Hi Jan65, Sadly I guess no-one will ever know how accurate the diagnosis was and, thus, what the poor soul actually died of.

Best regards,

JAP

[Peter Goodey]

Could your ancestor have been a rugby player by any chance? :D :D :D


erysipelas A severe, contagious bacterial infection (Streptococcus pyogenes) of the skin which can cause a diffuse spreading inflammation, high fever, and may lead to complications such as pneumonia and nephritis (inflammation of the kidneys). It is a risk after any skin injury (e.g. it has been associated with scrumpox in rugby players and elbow injuries in basketball players). Treatment includes use of appropriate antibiotics.

[Mutley]

Could your ancestor have been a rugby player by any chance?
"It is a risk after any skin injury (e.g. it has been associated with scrumpox in rugby players"
:D :D :D

Only if he was using the head of the local bobby as the ball.
However, I imagine that there was much 'scumpox' in his life. :D

[Mutley]

Hi Mutley, I'm sure (says she!!) that Psoriasis has hereditary aspects. But, given that it is a chronic and non-fatal complaint (except in terribly severe cases as in 'The Singing Detective'), high-flying researchers aren't interested! I recall saying to our family GP that dermatology is a great specialisation - your patients don't die but they don't get cured. He looked a bit amazed - and then said that this was the advice that his father (also a medico) had given him!! Perhaps he wished he'd followed it!
JAP

How right you are. ;)

[benny1982]

I think when my ancestor died she was living in one of the most crowded parts of London. The death cert says "Erysipelas of ????" I cannot make out what the last word is but it looks like either Face or Skin. I am very sceptical that she was a basketball or netball player. |jumphappy;)

My hypothesis is that it started on the face then it spread to other parts of her body including the lungs then the pericardium which is the fibrous sac surrounding the heart.

Evelyn Buildings was completed in 1882 and my ancestors moved in there by June 1882 and the head, Thomas Roberts appears on the ratebooks for the buildings in August 1882. When his wife died in 1886 the buildings were still quite new.

[margarita]

(e.g. it has been associated with scrumpox in rugby players and elbow injuries in basketball players).

I can assure you I did not catch mine from associating with rugby players or basketball players. :)

Regards,

maggie

P.S. Off to look up 'scrumpox'

[margarita]

When I had Erysipelas my face looked not dissimilar to the one on the right here: readersdigest.co.uk/girl-power-i-335.html but bright, bright red. You could see a ridge across my face where the infection was spreading (it started on my right temple). It must have been terrifying to see yourself in that state before there was adequate treatment.

When the second doctor diagnosed what I had, my Mum said 'I knew what it was because our Mabel (one of Mum's older sisters) had it when I was a young girl.' This would have been in the early 30's probably - before penicillin, anyway. Auntie Mabel obviously recovered because I knew her as an old lady.

Regards,

maggie

[Jane Gee]

Have just caught this my ancestor died in 1877 of this but as an abcess according the the death certificate. It must have been a very painful way to die but he was just a plain ordinary railway clerk in London.
Jane
have just had flu,swine flu, hepatitus and tetanus I feel like a flaming pin cushion but prevention is better than cure

[Mutley]

Jane
have just had flu,swine flu, hepatitus and tetanus I feel like a flaming pin cushion but prevention is better than cure

Injections, ugh!
http://freesmileyface.net/smiley/Drinks/drinking-60.gif (http://freesmileyface.net)

[benny1982]

The local church of my 1886 erysipelas suffering ancestor Mary Ann Roberts of St Alban's Holborn has some deposited records at the LMA and they have an 1880s prayer and thanksgiving book for the sick and recently dead of the parish. Mary Ann Roberts is mentioned in the book in 1886 as "Sick". At the bottom of the page there is RIP and Mary is listed. So when she was dying of erysipeals and secondary major infections a prayer was held for her and a memorial service.

[Jane Gee]

Hallo Benny
How lovely my ancestor was nursed by his sister but he died away from home his birth home in Kent, he died in July and his father died in October of 1877 it was must have been a very difficult time for the family.
Jane

[HelenVSmith]

Hi

Streptococcus pyogenes is normal flora on the skin. There are over 140 different serotypes which have been associated with a wide range of diseases from scarlet fever to puerperal fever also known as childbed fever to rheumatic fever and post-streptococcal glomerulonephritis.
The "flesh eating disease" which hit the news in a big way a few years ago is also caused by this bug.

Any time you have a penetration of the skin people can be at risk and we have had recent cases from someone with chicken-pox (who scratched themselves to pieces0, someone who put his hand through a plate glass window, a person who ahd been bitten by a spider and an IV drug user.

Contact with other people is also a way for it to spread (which is why the netball and rugby players got the blame).

It can also be carried vaginally which explains the childbed fever.

Penicillin has been a God-send for this bug as it is still sensitive to it. In the event that you have a cut sucha s a recent pathologist got doing an autopsy onset can be very rapid and can be fatal.

Regards
Helen
Streptococcal Reference Laboratory

[benny1982]

Hi

My great, great, great grandmother died and her daughter Kate Coombs was present at the death. I have done extensive research into Evelyn Buildings and it still stands now as St Ursula's Hostel and is 5 floors high and it originally had 31 tenement when opened in the 1880s so I assume that No 25 was on one of the top floors.

I did read that erysipelas can spread to other parts of the body so that seems to be the case with Mary Ann Roberts.

Ben

[susan-y]

My 2xg grandfather's sister died of erysipelas in 1868, aged 30, in Scotland. It was just five weeks after she had given birth (her daughter lived) - I had found out information regarding erysipelas to give me some idea of what it was, which corresponds with what has been discussed here. Her death certificate records "Erysipelas, some days, Congestion of Brain, 2 days".

I have always wondered if she had contracted it through giving birth, or if it was just a coincidence. Does anyone know?

While searching something different, this thread came up...
Your 2x grandfather's sister could have picked up the infection in the hospital... my brother born in 1942 was diagnosed with erysipelas shortly after birth and my mother blamed the sanitary conditions in the hospital where he was born. Luckily they had a "new" drug and it worked great and he's still around to tell the story. My youngest son also was diagnosed with it in about 1987 at age 5.... of all places it was on his lower stomach and groin area. The doctor figured it was from a scratch while playing and after about 4 days in the hospital on IV he was back home and over the trauma. It certainly does spread quickly and if he had not of told his older brother we could well have had a much sicker or even dead son on our hands.

Sue

[benny1982]

Hi

My ancestor Mary Ann Roberts must have contracted erysipelas due to the harsh conditions of 1880s London. She died in November which allegedly had the worst smog throughout the year. Also she lived in a tenement block. The cold, damp and pollution must have not been good. Erysipelas is often caused by a break in the skin so I wonder if she had an ulcer or even a rash due to the living conditions and she then contracted erysipelas. She was nearly 47 so I doubt she would have just given birth and if she did there is no record of a child born to the family at that time.

A far cry from the wooded, green fresh village in Sussex she was born in.

Ben

[Adnepos_Iacobi]

As Maggie tells (below), erysipelas is still with us. Antimicrobials can treat it effectively, so nowadays erysipelas is not the killer that it was. In 1942 it would probably have been sulphanilamide rather than penicillin G that was 'new'. Penicillin was barely introduced.

The causative organism is a streptococcus as is the germ that causes puerperal (childbed) fever. Interestingly, erysipelas and puerperal fever have been noted to coincide since the time that the infectious nature of puerperal fever was first described by Alexander Gordon in 1795.

[Jane Gee]

As Maggie tells (below), erysipelas is still with us. Antimicrobials can treat it effectively, so nowadays erysipelas is not the killer that it was. In 1942 it would probably have been sulphanilamide rather than penicillin G that was 'new'. Penicillin was barely introduced.

The causative organism is a streptococcus as is the germ that causes puerperal (childbed) fever. Interestingly, erysipelas and puerperal fever have been noted to coincide since the time that the infectious nature of puerperal fever was first described by Alexander Gordon in 1795.

Hi
My ancestor who died of erysepelas had a sister who died due to the above after she gave birth to a premture baby who sadly died in around 1873 in London.
Jane

[Shayner]

Hi All,

Erysipelas is found in animals as well. Hogs suspected to have erysipelas have to be handled very carefully as the disease is readily transmitted to people. Hogs are considered to be one of the most important reservoirs for this disease.

People who work in the meat industry are now very aware of the potential for animal diseases to make them ill. This was not always the case.

Shayne

[benny1982]

Mary Ann Roberts lived in a tenement that was near a cow yard in Holborn. Maybe she got erysipelas from them. |jumphappy

[Shayner]

Hi Benny,

I know that hogs and poultry can be affected with erysipelas but I don't think cows can. I'll take a better look through my manuals tomorrow. It's past my bed time!

Cheers,
Shayne

[benny1982]

Hi

I think she contracted it maybe due to the smog and pollution of 1880s London.

Ben

[Adnepos_Iacobi]

The germ that causes erysipelas in animals usually does not cause much if any mischief in humans; it is rare, tends to occur on the hands (exposure of cuts to animal products, so there should be a good story of at-risk activity), it's mild (there might be the odd exception) but does tend to go on and on. It looks a bit like erysipelas and with its rarity and especially with atypical presentations, could be mistaken for erysipelas but the medical term for infection in people with the 'pig germ' is erysipeloid.

The contrast with the way in which erysipelas affects people is striking. The most important difference that you feel dreadful with erysipelas.

Smog and pollution, by wrecking the immune system, could predispose to erysipelas causing death, or I guess allow an infection with the pig germ to run wild in people. But the cause of both erysipelas and erysipeloid is a germ.

[margarita]

................... you feel dreadful with erysipelas..

I'll go along with that.

Regards,

maggie