William GREGORY and Ann GOODWIN

[Stuart.G]

Thanks to UK who found the subject marriage of my gggrandfather on 30 March 1828 at Manchester Cathedral with both "of this parish". His son, on William's death certificate, states that he was born in Derbyshire. He appears to have been born c1805 but I have no info on his parents other than his father was a weaver. I have no info on Ann at all. William came to Australia and married a Sarah Nicholson in 1838.

I have no info on when or how William came to Australia and whether Ann came with him or not. If William wasn't a bigamist, Ann may have died before 1838, possibly around Manchester. I can find no record of a death of an Ann GREGORY or an Ann GOODWIN before 1838 in Australia.

I would appreciate some advice on where to look for more info, particularly about the births of William and Ann, their respective families and the possible death of Ann between 1828 and 1838. Thanks.

[uksearch]

I'll have a dig around,but I am not too hopeful.Maybe you could put a message on the DBS forum?

UK

[Stuart.G]

Thanks again UK. A relative on a distant limb of my tree in New South Wales is planning to be in the Lancs and DBS areas later this year to further this research. Any advice on prioritising the places she could visit to chase down William and Ann would be very much appreciated.

To add spice we are trying to prove or disprove that the William GREAVES alias GREGORY who was sentenced in the Derby Assizes on 23 March 1833 to transportation for 7 years was the same person. At the time of his arrest, according to newspaper accounts at the time, William stated that his Mother lived in Water Street in Manchester. Did a GREGORY or a GREAVES family live in Water Street in 1833? Was one of these a weaver? What was Water Street like in 1833?

This William was transported on the "Lloyds" which arrived in Sydney on 18 Dec 1833. Did he conveniently state that he was a "widower", if it was he that married Sarah Nicholson in Sydney in 1838.

Despite there being substantial circumstantial evidence (e.g. the same age and both being born in Derbyshire) which leads to the conclusion that they are one and the same person. On the other hand there is a lack of evidence which results in the conclusion that they are two different people.

Any help to solve this dilemma would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Stuart

[uksearch]

I can only find two William GREGORYs who were joiners (as per marriage PR) listed in the 1832 TD.One at Kay St,Ardwick and one at Temple Place,Salford.The early TDs do not have the alpabetical street index with heads of households as the later ones do, so it would be a long task to go through all the GREGORYs or GREAVES.
Do you have any records in Australia with William GREGORYs signature? On the PR William GREGORYs signaure is very distinctive.

UK

[Stuart.G]

Thanks again UK. Your continued help is very much appreciated.

I have to express my ignorance! What does the letters TD stand for?

I don't have any documents showing William's signature. This is a very good pointer that you have raised. It will be a long shot, but I will try and see if I can view some original document which may have a signature. Perhaps my NSW relative can view the original church record when he married Sarah NICHOLSON. I will let her know of your continued help and to ask her to try and locate a signature when she is next in Sydney. She lives on the mid south coast of NSW.

Thanks for the info on the addresses of the two William GREGORYs who were joiners. With nothing coming up for Water Street, Manchester, this is another bit of non-evidence linking the two William GREGORYs.

For a guide to my rellie coming to Manchester, how many TDs (see my comment above) are there between c1805 and 1833? Would you be able to give me any idea on how long it would take someone, relatively skilled, to search through the listed GREGORYs?

Thanks again for your help. I will have to get an email off to my NSW rellie straight away.

Stuart

[uksearch]

I am sorry Stuart and others,

TD = Trade directory.In this instance Pigot's 1832 Manchester & Salford Trade Directory.I think that you can discount the William living at Kay St as he was still living there in 1836 as per TD.There were at least two Water Streets in Manchester as this time.One in the Deansgate area and the other one in the St George's district.
I am not sure how many TDs MCL (see my location) has between 1805 and 1835 on film,but there will be at least a dozen.
I have to go running out of time ... maybe 8 hours or more maybe less.

UK

[Stuart.G]

Thanks UK for the explanation and the added info. Seems she should allow two days just to view the TDs!!!

[Stuart.G]

A further thought on the GREGORY at Kay Street. If he is my William he has until 1838 to leave the UK. If he was William GREAVES alias GREGORY he would have to be gone by 1833.

I've sent an email to my rellie in NSW asking whether she can obtain a signature. I don't anticipate a quick response. Thanks for your help.

[uksearch]

I have just had a look at what MCL has on film.They are approx 24 TDs between 1805 and 1832 and they are contained on 9 reels of film.There is then a gap untill 1836.
I was was looking at the 1838 TDs for someone and noticed that this did have an alphabetical street listing with heads of households.They was only one Water listed,I think that by then the other one had changed to Jackson St.They were no GREGORYs listed...I'd forgotten about looking for GREAVES.

UK

[Stuart.G]

Thanks again UK. So, no GREGORYs in Water Street in 1838. I appreciate the efforts you have made and the info on the 9 reels of film. Seems like a lengthy job for my rellie if she gets a chance.

Certainly no concerns here about you forgetting the GREAVES name, but if you do get a chance and you do remember I would certainly be interested in the results of any GREAVES in Water St about 1833.

I haven't heard back from my rellie in NSW, but I should do within a week.

[uksearch]

Thanks again UK. So, no GREGORYs in Water Street in 1838. I appreciate the efforts you have made and the info on the 9 reels of film. Seems like a lengthy job for my rellie if she gets a chance.

Certainly no concerns here about you forgetting the GREAVES name, but if you do get a chance and you do remember I would certainly be interested in the results of any GREAVES in Water St about 1833.

I haven't heard back from my rellie in NSW, but I should do within a week.


MCL does not have the 1833 TD and the 1832 does not have the alphabetical street index with householders names.It does have an alphabetical street index but that is to help locate the streets on the TDs map.I can check the 1838 TD for GREAVSE as that does have the alphabetical street index with householders names.

UK

[Stuart.G]

That would be good if you get the chance. By assumption and deduction (very vague) we would be looking at that time (1838), a GREAVES probably aged between 50 and 60.

Thanks again.

[uksearch]

Sorry, no GREAVES in Water St.

UK

[Stuart.G]

Thanks again for your efforts UK. The Greaves at Water Street was a long shot because this was a story that William Greaves is alleged to have told the pawnbroker when he was trying to sell the wares that he had stolen from Tupton Hall. This was presumably to add weight to his story that the stolen goods were his property.

With regard to William GREGORYs distinctive signature it appears that we may have an image that could be compared. I anticipate receiving the images in the next few days.

I am not familiar with how this forum operates. Am I able to post a message with an image attached or do I need to send it specifically to you direct?

You have been so helpful I am reluctant to ask any more of you. But if you get a chance would you please do another lookup for William's father, who, I believe, was also named William. That is, for William GREGORY who was a weaver and not a joiner.

Thanks again for you efforts. Regards,

[uksearch]

QUOTE FROM THE PREVIOUS MESSAGE
I am not familiar with how this forum operates. Am I able to post a message with an image attached or do I need to send it specifically to you direct?

If you click on to FAQ on the blue bar at the top of the page and then when the page appears,type attachment in the box...hey presto.

I'll take a look at the 1832 TD next week.

UK

[Stuart.G]

Thanks for reminding me about the FAQ. I read them a month or two ago when you first invited me to join the forum but I had forgotten about the attachments. I will attach the images as soon as I get them.

If you get a chance to look at the 1832 TD I would be grateful.

Thanks very much.

[Stuart.G]

Hello again UK. I have received an image of a page out of an old family Bible and it is attached. It would be really helpful if you could compare this distinctive handwriting to the handwriting in the PR's.

Also, looking forward to your research on whether any Greaves are listed in Water Street in the 1832 directory.

Thanks again for all your help.

[uksearch]

when I open the attachment I can only what looks like the words birth.Do I need to scroll down more?

UK

[Stuart.G]

Sorry UK. No. Something mysterious is happening. Original image file I sent displays properly here. Yet when I click on the attached file I get what you can see.

I have just attached the same GIF file after changing it to greyscale and I also attached a jpg file of the same image. This time I checked both of the attached images prior to sending this message and both are not displaying properly through the BG Forum software. I do not know what is going on.

I will try a few things and see if I can improve the results. I will get back shortly.

[Stuart.G]

Hi again UK,

I cannot resolve the problem of the BG Forum software not displaying the files correctly. I have sent you a private message with a URL where you can view the full image and download it if that would help you in helping me.

Thanks.

[uksearch]

I tried to send you a scan of the PR but the system would not allow me to add the attachment.Probably something that I did wrong.
I had a look at the docuement...it is certainly a similar style of writing but I can't be certain that they were written by the same hand.

UK

[Stuart.G]

Thanks again UK. I appreciate the trouble you have gone to. It appears the trouble you had attaching your image may be similar to the trouble I had. I suspect it is the BG Forum software that is not performing to expectations.

I have advised the administrator of another, unrelated problem, caused by a bug in the version of vBulletin they are using. The bug has been fixed in the next version (which is not the latest).

The writing in the image I posted is certainly writing that is well practised. You cannot say for certain they were written by the same person and I cannot say the writing in the Bible was written by William. By looking at the image it appears to me that the entries in the Bible were made at the same time with the last entry being 1859. This is over 30 years after his marriage to Ann in 1828. It is understandable that his style of writing may have changed over this time. I may be reading too much into your reply, but I see the similarity as a positive lead to the two William GREGORYs being the same person. For, on the other hand, if they were dissimilar, then it would be as a negative to them being the same person.

Your help on this and other matters for me have been beyond my expectations. If ever you think I can assist you please ask.

With very best regards,

Stuart Gregory