Born in West Indies,British Subject

[lindarhead]

Hello all,

I'm researching an Ellen Hills born 1838 in the West Indies, her parents were John Hills( Hill on some census records) and his wife Elizabeth,maiden name Stringer.

On all English census records from 1851 onwards Ellen is recorded as born in West Indies,British subject. There is no sign of the family on the 1841 census, but in 1851 there are children Emma, Alfred,Amos,Ellen,June & Harriet. Now Amos is born 1835 in Sussex, yet their next child Ellen is born in 1838 in the W. Indies. The next child to be born is June, who is born in Islington,Middlesex in 1843. So obviously somewhere between the years 1835-1843 the family move to and then back from the West Indies. What I want to know is why?...and if it's possible to get a birth record for Ellen?

If anyone can offer any help or advise on this one I will be eternally grateful.

Linda

[josie7644]

Just a thought -they may have moved back to West Indies to care for a sick/dying relative.

[lindarhead]

Just a thought -they may have moved back to West Indies to care for a sick/dying relative.
Thanks for the thought Josie, but both John and his wife were born in Sussex I don't think it's likely that they had ever lived in the W Indies before, certainly none of the births of their other children indicate that, and also William & Elizabeth were married in Goring in Sussex in 1823.

Thanks anyway.

Linda

[Marie C..]

Was the father in the army? My grandfather was born in West Indies and his siblings in various army places in Uk.
Marie

[lindarhead]

Was the father in the army? My grandfather was born in West Indies and his siblings in various army places in Uk.
Marie
That was my first thought actually Marie but I don't have that info, and on the 1851 census the father, John is recorded as a Labourer so that doesn't help me really.Do you know why some of our army personnel woud be in the West Indies at that time? ( 1838)

Linda

[Heather]

Hello all,

I'm researching an Ellen Hills born 1838 in the West Indies, her parents were John Hills( Hill on some census records) and his wife Elizabeth,maiden name Stringer.

On all English census records from 1851 onwards Ellen is recorded as born in West Indies,British subject. So obviously somewhere between the years 1835-1843 the family move to and then back from the West Indies. What I want to know is why?...and if it's possible to get a birth record for Ellen?

If anyone can offer any help or advise on this one I will be eternally grateful.

Linda

Hi Linda......

I am afraid you will have to get more information than just "West Indies, British subject"!! That covers a number of the Islands, such as Jamaica, Barbados, Bermuda and so on. My husband's Jamaican ancestors were alternately called British, West Indian, and your designation, plus a few more.

However, there is one bright note. In Jamaica, the church records are by Parish (frankly a parish there is what you know as a county). BUT.....all of the LDS Parish microfilms have Indexes. HUGE HELP!! If there is a Mormon FHC near you, I suggest you order in one of their films, but not before you nail down which Island in the West Indies. (there were 15+ parishes at that particular time in Jamaica)

Pat Jackson has an incredible website for Jamaica, but it is mostly a pay one. I put the name "Hill/Hills" in there and got everything from surnames to plantations to villages. So that won't work. Google her site which is Jamaica Family Search. There are free sections that you could browse thru.

Often the UK people who came out to the Island were looking to make their fortunes, not realizing just how hot and sometimes dangerous the Islands could be. Cholera, Yellow Fever, Bone-breaking Fever, to name a few illnesses. And 1835 was the year that slavery was abolished, so it was not a particularly easy period in their history.

However, unless you know it definitely is Jamaica, you will have a tough time of it. I have the reverse......looking for a Cooper in England who came out to Jamaica around 1800.

Once you know for sure which Island, YES, you will be able to get a record of the birth from the Church of England parish records. I have films that go back to 1722. And they give way more information than the UK ones do, which is a bit strange, seeing that it is the same church!! :D

Good luck and let me know if I can help. I haven't been over to my local FHC for a year or two, but could look up stuff once you know for sure where she was born.

Cheers......Heather in Canada |wave|

[Heather]

That was my first thought actually Marie but I don't have that info, and on the 1851 census the father, John is recorded as a Labourer so that doesn't help me really.Do you know why some of our army personnel woud be in the West Indies at that time? ( 1838)

Linda

There were several British army garrisons in Jamaica for eons. Jamaica was British until 1963. And there were often uprisings on the island, etc. Two of the garrisons were in a place called Falmouth in the Parish of Trelawney. That is where my Coopers were from. There also were garrisons in Kingston and other parts of the Island. As to why?? I am not entirely sure because I have never thought of that. But I am sure they kept the population peaceful in the more remote areas.

Perhaps your ancestor was a tailor or the like. A thought just struck me and it is worth considering. Once slavery was abolished in 1834/5, Jamaica went to the "indentured worker" system wherein people would sign up for 7 years to work on the island. That is one possibility judging by your time span. Usually they were German or from Asia and India. But it is a possibility, if he thought he would make a fortune there. |idea|

[Geoffers]

Do read Heathers replies, above, also...........

I got these hits searching TNA's catalogue for "john hill* AND sussex (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/searchresults.asp?SearchInit=0&txtsearchterm=john+hill*+AND+sussex&txtfirstdate=&txtlastdate=&txtrestriction=WO97&hdnsorttype=Reference&image1.x=36&image1.y=3)" in WO97

Could the second one be your chap?

I tried repeating the search for RN and RM files using the series code ADM, but any possibilities seem less likely. You might try a search for yourself, if you are not sure how, please ask.

[lindarhead]

Thanks so much for those replies Heather....I don't know really which way to go with this, as I have no clue how I can possibly find out which Island she was born on,it's completely outside anything I've ever come across before and there is no-one who has any idea other than the ref in the census records. I can see that the time span fits in with what you're saying about the indentured workers, but I just don't now how to find out. I do feel that although my initial thought was down the military route as the reason for their being there that would he have come home to England and by the time of the next census in 51 just been a Labourer...I'm in a muddle with this I have to admit....:(

Linda

[Geoffers]

Further to my last message - See this TNA news item ([URL]http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/news/stories/381.htm?WT.lp=n-33642)as another source for foreign births. Searching is free, you pay to view likely matches.

[Heather]

Thanks so much for those replies Heather....I don't know really which way to go with this, as I have no clue how I can possibly find out which Island she was born on,it's completely outside anything I've ever come across before and there is no-one who has any idea other than the ref in the census records. I can see that the time span fits in with what you're saying about the indentured workers, but I just don't now how to find out. I do feel that although my initial thought was down the military route as the reason for their being there that would he have come home to England and by the time of the next census in 51 just been a Labourer...I'm in a muddle with this I have to admit....:(

Linda

I have to admit that his being a Labourer was what twigged me re the Indentured Worker....but I have been away from Jamaican genealogy for a bit so will ask on the Caribbean group. I don't think I have ever seen one that is British. Usually East Indian or Chinese. Those "politically incorrect" columns are a godsend!! |biggrin|

[lindarhead]

Do read Heathers replies, above, also...........

I got these hits searching TNA's catalogue for "john hill* AND sussex (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/searchresults.asp?SearchInit=0&txtsearchterm=john+hill*+AND+sussex&txtfirstdate=&txtlastdate=&txtrestriction=WO97&hdnsorttype=Reference&image1.x=36&image1.y=3)" in WO97

Could the second one be your chap?

I tried repeating the search for RN and RM files using the series code ADM, but any possibilities seem less likely. You might try a search for yourself, if you are not sure how, please ask.
Geoffers thanks so much for that...yes it could well be him if that regiment served in the West Indies...how would I find that out?

Linda

[lindarhead]

Further to my last message - See this TNA (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/news/stories/381.htm?WT.lp=n-33642) news item as another source for foreign births. Searching is free, you pay to view likely matches.
Geoffers re your second message I can't get that link to open....could you help a bit further please?

Linda

[Geoffers]

Most peculiar. Go to TNA's web-site http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Look at the horizontal bar near the top of the screen, over to the right is a link 'News' click on that and you should end up here http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/news/default.htm?source=news

On the left of the sreen click on 'More overseas birth, marriage and death records available online.'

[lindarhead]

I have to admit that his being a Labourer was what twigged me re the Indentured Worker....but I have been away from Jamaican genealogy for a bit so will ask on the Caribbean group. I don't think I have ever seen one that is British. Usually East Indian or Chinese. Those "politically incorrect" columns are a godsend!! |biggrin|
Thanks Heather that would be great...I do so appreciate all the help and advice I've received on this.

Linda

[AdeleE]

There is no sign of the family on the 1841 census, but in 1851 there are children Emma, Alfred,Amos,Ellen,June & Harriet. Now Amos is born 1835 in Sussex, yet their next child Ellen is born in 1838 in the W. Indies.

Here they are in the 1841 census:

John Hill 44, labourer
Elizabeth Hill 41
Thomas Hill 15
Fanny Hill 14
Emma Hill 11
Alfred Hill 9
Amos Hill 7
Eleanor Hill 4

Birthplace for all except Eleanor = N (not in county)
Birthplace for Eleanor = F (foreign parts)

Address: Hut by the side of road
Civil parish: St Mary Islington East
Hundred: Ossulstone (Finsbury Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
Registration district: Islington
Sub-registration district: Islington East
HO107; Piece 664; Book: 16; Folio: 18; Page: 30

From the other addresses on the page, it seems to be in the Seven Sisters Road neighbourhood.

Adele

[AdeleE]

Now Amos is born 1835 in Sussex, yet their next child Ellen is born in 1838 in the W. Indies. The next child to be born is June, who is born in Islington,Middlesex in 1843.

There is too long a gap between these children. This might be another child of John & Elizabeth Hill.

London, England, Deaths and Burials, 1813-1980

Saint Mary, Islington

Frederick Hill, abode Seven Sisters Row, buried 22 Jan 1841, infant

Adele

[lindarhead]

Adele, you're a star!!!! Thank you so much for finding them on the 1841, I feel sure that this is the family...not a very salubrious address'hut by side of road'...:) So they obviously weren't in the West Indies for very long then...hmm...the mystery deepens!

Linda

[MythicalMarian]

Linda, I don't suppose you've considered the possibility of little Ellen being an 'adopted' child? Or even a foundling they took in? I am just a wee bit concerned about a labourer having the wherewithal to sail out to the Windies and back again in the time scale you have.

[lindarhead]

Linda, I don't suppose you've considered the possibility of little Ellen being an 'adopted' child? Or even a foundling they took in? I am just a wee bit concerned about a labourer having the wherewithal to sail out to the Windies and back again in the time scale you have.
Hello Marian, no to be honest I hadn't considered that option, but it is worth thinking about. I have to admit given the time span I did wonder about that myself, and I'm also thinking that if the child before Ellen was born in Sussex in 1835 and then the next one was born in Sussex in 1841 or 43 then it's unlikely that he was posted there as military, unless of course he was discharged on medical grounds.

It's a puzzle!...Linda

[Heather]

Linda, I don't suppose you've considered the possibility of little Ellen being an 'adopted' child? Or even a foundling they took in? I am just a wee bit concerned about a labourer having the wherewithal to sail out to the Windies and back again in the time scale you have.

I must say I tend to agree with you. Carpenters and that sort of trade would go out to Jamaica, but most often didn't take their families with them. The price of the ship's passage would be too much. Hopefully Linda can find a scrap of evidence elsewhere that may give her a hint or two. Anyone living in a "hut by the side of the road" obviously could not afford to go out to the West Indies with their whole family. Baffles me, though.

[lindarhead]

I must say I tend to agree with you. Carpenters and that sort of trade would go out to Jamaica, but most often didn't take their families with them. The price of the ship's passage would be too much. Hopefully Linda can find a scrap of evidence elsewhere that may give her a hint or two. Anyone living in a "hut by the side of the road" obviously could not afford to go out to the West Indies with their whole family. Baffles me, though.
Hi Heather,

Yes I have to agree it is baffling,and of course I now know that John and his family including Ellen, who is listed as Eleanor on the 1841 census were back in England by the night of the census 41. Also living or staying in the 'hut by the side of the road' are two other families plus a toll collector. I am wondering whether they're al bunking down for the night with the Toll collector en route to elsewhere in Islington. By 1851 the Hill family are living at 2 Kings Rd,Islington and John is still a labourer and had two further daughters,plus have had one other child who possibly was born to them and died as an infant in 1841.There's just something that isn't adding up here, but I don't know what!

Linda

[Geoffers]

No answers, just some thoughts...........

You might try tracking down parish registers for baptisms of children, prior to Ellen/Eleanor. Look for the occupation of John and if it was different from the census returns. Perhaps he went bankrupt and was avoiding debtor's prison? Maybe try searching the London Gazette?

The suggestion of an adoption is a distinct possibility, was Ellen/Eleanor baptised in England perhaps in Islington? If she was baptised in Islington who is shown as the parent(s)? Did John have a child before Thomas and was Ellen/Eleanor actually his grandchild?

Any other HILL(S) who are shown in census returns as being born in the West Indies?

Any convictions of HILL(S)? Try a search of TNA's catalogue using the surname and the department or series code 'HO'.

[lindarhead]

No answers, just some thoughts...........

You might try tracking down parish registers for baptisms of children, prior to Ellen/Eleanor. Look for the occupation of John and if it was different from the census returns. Perhaps he went bankrupt and was avoiding debtor's prison? Maybe try searching the London Gazette?

The suggestion of an adoption is a distinct possibility, was Ellen/Eleanor baptised in England perhaps in Islington? If she was baptised in Islington who is shown as the parent(s)? Did John have a child before Thomas and was Ellen/Eleanor actually his grandchild?

Any other HILL(S) who are shown in census returns as being born in the West Indies?

Any convictions of HILL(S)? Try a search of TNA's catalogue using the surname and the department or series code 'HO'.
Food for thought there Geoffers...that's tomorrow planned out already then!..:)

I'll keep you all posted.

Linda

[LynA]

Census entries show my ancestor was born in the West Indies about 1811 and her sister born there in 1814. Their father was in the British army at that time and stationed in St Lucia.
The family were living in Lymington in 1808 and back in Lymington again by 1817. The girls were baptised on the family's return to Lymington.
I think it quite likely that many soldiers who left the army would become labourers. My ancestors ended up in the workhouse, so they were not supported by the army.

Perhaps your family had a similar reason for travel?


Good luck with your searches,
Lynda:)

[Mutley]

One of mine stated on the census that she was born in the West Indies. Further tracking proved, she was not, she was born in Newington in Surrey.

But her father, when I found him, stated he was from Guadeloupe. A French island. I don't know if my Mary Ann actually ever knew where she was born.

We know far more about them than they knew about themselves. ;)

[Heather]

One of mine stated on the census that she was born in the West Indies. Further tracking proved, she was not, she was born in Newington in Surrey.

But her father, when I found him, stated he was from Guadeloupe. A French island. I don't know if my Mary Ann actually ever knew where she was born.

We know far more about them than they knew about themselves. ;)

Hi Mutt!!

I find it amusing that a lot of our ancestors told big fibs about ages, names, and all sorts of things.......thinking "no one will ever find out"......HAH!! Meanwhile, 100 years later along comes the internet and the LDS records and all sorts of ways to find out who they were and so on. One of Ron's British Jamaican ancestors had a fancy name for 1870.....Danielle. Her birth cert said "Drusilla Maude"......lordy, I would have changed it too. |biggrin|

Cheers.....

[lindarhead]

Morning Guys!!

Loved reading your posts this morning, and I have to say Lynda I do keep coming back to John being in the military myself as I just don't see how a man,who doesn't appear to be any sort of tradesman, with a wife and then 5 children could afford to travel over to the W.Indies...but if in the army would he be allowed to take them all with him? The only military ref I've come across is the one that Geoffers suggested which has John having been in the 3rd Dragoon Guards, however I can't find mention anywhere of the 3rd Dragoons Guards being in the W.Indies at the time John was supposedly there. Military history is not a strong point of mine I have to confess...but I'm learning all the time.

Anyhow to the good news....whilst I haven't yet found out why and where in the W.Indies Ellen was born, I have found her Baptizm record. She was baptised in Islington, Middlesex,in April 1840, on the same day as John & Eliz's baby son Frederick, sadly he later died in January 1841. So that's one hurdle over...now to the big one...the why,where,how and if she was born in the West Indies!..:)

I'll keep you posted!...:)

Linda

[lindarhead]

I did have another thought actually along the lines of Ellen being a 'foundling' the family took in....well at least that suggestion was what prompted the thought. I'll bounce this idea off you all if I may.Is it possible that John was over in the W.Indies for whatever reason, and fathered a child with a local woman, and then again, for whatever reason, bought that child home with him to be reared in the bosom of his English family?

Thoughts on that one please?...:)

Linda

[Geoffers]

Anyhow to the good news....whilst I haven't yet found out why and where in the W.Indies Ellen was born, I have found her Baptizm record. She was baptised in Islington, Middlesex,in April 1840, on the same day as John & Eliz's baby son Frederick

Are John + Elizabeth shown as parents and does the record you have viewed give an occupation and also an age/date of birth? Does the register include any gossip of the sort that I posted about Plumstead, Norfolk (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38967)? (Unlikely in an urban parish, but you never know).

Edit - Do you know where John HILL(S) was born in Sussex? Is it the same place as any of these other HILL(S) (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/searchresults.asp?SearchInit=0&txtsearchterm=hill*+AND+sussex&txtfirstdate=1816&txtlastdate=1840&txtrestriction=wo&hdnsorttype=Reference&image1.x=21&image1.y=19) who served in the army? - Just in case he adopted a brother's child.

Also, I mentioned that I couldn't find a Navy record to fit him; on the grounds that it is always worth checking for yourself (and it would be useful for you to know anyway), begin with TNA's catalogue (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/default.asp)

In the word or phrase field enter - john hill*
Restrict the year range in this case to 1830-1840
In the department or series code, simply enter ADM

You'll get several different hits, the entries which are most likely to contain anything are in ADM29 (Certificates of service), ADM45 (Pay and accounts), ADM73 (Pensioner Admission Papers), ADM157 (RM papers) - I couldn't find anything which stood out, but I mention it in case I missed something.

[lindarhead]

Thanks Geoffers, you're a great help to me.I'll check out those records as soon as I've written this.

Re the question about the baptism record, yes John & Eliz are given as parents on Ellen's baptism, it's in the right area and his occupation is labourer. Doesn't give an age however nor any gossip but I'm happy that it's the right one especially as she's baptized alongside brother Frederick. I have found one too for another younger sibling a couple of years on. With regard to John Hill[s] he's supposedly born in Shipley,Sussex and married in Goring, Sussex. I've not found a record for Shipley but I have for Goring. I'm going to get the map out in a minute and look these places up to see how far apart they are.

Linda

[Geoffers]

With regard to John Hill[s] he's supposedly born in Shipley,Sussex and married in Goring, Sussex. I've not found a record for Shipley but I have for Goring. I'm going to get the map out in a minute and look these places up to see how far apart they are.

Goring-by-Sea is.........by the sea. Shipley has got to be about 12-14 miles due north.

With that detail, is your John HILLS in Poplar workhouse in 1861?

RG9/309 f157 p6
John HILLS, pauper, widr, 70, Sailor*, bn Goring, Sussex.

N.B. I think this does read Sailor and not Tailor.......there are other entries on the page where capital T is used and it is not the same as the capital in this occupation.

So, was John HILLS a merchant seaman???? - Sorry, throwing more possibilites at you.

[lindarhead]

Goring-by-Sea is.........by the sea. Shipley has got to be about 12-14 miles due north.

With that detail, is your John HILLS in Poplar workhouse in 1861?

RG9/309 f157 p6
John HILLS, pauper, widr, 70, Sailor*, bn Goring, Sussex.

N.B. I think this does read Sailor and not Tailor.......there are other entries on the page where capital T is used and it is not the same as the capital in this occupation.

So, was John HILLS a merchant seaman???? - Sorry, throwing more possibilites at you.
Hi Geoffers, yes I had seen that 1861 entry on the census and have it saved to study again later...but I think, although not absolutely sure as yet that his wife was still living in 1861 so if that's the case this isn't him...but not discounting it altogether.If however, this was him, why would he be listed as labourer on the two previous census records and on the baptisms? Could he have become a merchant seaman later...or would he have been too old,or and I'm just thinking out loud here, could he have been a merchant seaman as a young man, but because in 41 & 51 he wasn't actively sailing but working as a labourer just didn't mention being a sailor.

Linda

Linda

[Geoffers]

Hi Geoffers, yes I had seen that 1861 entry on the census and have it saved to study again later...but I think, although not absolutely sure as yet that his wife was still living in 1861

Have you found her in a census? If so, would you mind posting the reference?


If however, this was him, why would he be listed as labourer on the two previous census records and on the baptisms?

People live longer and are generally healthier now than they were in Victorian times. Perhaps at 70 his mind was wandering a little and he came out with odd seafaring phrases or tales so that people assumed him to be (or have been) a sailor?



Could he have become a merchant seaman later...or would he have been too old

He wouldn't necessarily have been too old, though many seamen would by his age be working in dockyards. I wonder if he was at sea earlier in life?

[lindarhead]

I haven't actually seen the census record for myself I have to admit, I'm working on hearsay on that one, however I do have a death record which fits for her in 1876,Islington age 76.

Re the second point, yes I can see that and like I said I have got that census record in my own collection just in case.

And on the third point...if he was working in the dockyards would he be termed a labourer do you think?

Linda

[Heather]

Have you found her in a census? If so, would you mind posting the reference?


He wouldn't necessarily have been too old, though many seamen would by his age be working in dockyards. I wonder if he was at sea earlier in life?

Very interesting, Geoffers. I think you may have hit the proverbial nail. John quite probably was an ordinary seamen and working on ships that went out to the West Indies. Both Whitehaven and Dumfries being major seaports that a lot of ships came from.

My genie mentor still can't find her missing merchant seaman ancestor who came, conquered and left children behind. He was from Cumberland.

The possibility that he would have brought an "outside child" back on a ship is a bit slim to my thinking....long weeks at sea...and I would assume she would be *mixed*. Not unusual or particularly shocking in the Islands, but I think the attitude in England might have been different. But who knows? Perhaps he went out earlier, the child was born, and on another trip he brought her back. I am really stretching on that one. :D

When I was in Cumbria and Dumfries, there were tombstones for well-to-do families who died in Jamaica. So it seems that is where the northerners went to. Just a few thoughts....but perhaps one of our *collective musings* might be close.

[lindarhead]

Musings for cogitation and possibly discussion...:)

I'm thinking along the same lines as Geoffers here, re the merchant seaman angle...and yes I agree bringing home an outside child is a bit of a long shot, but would his wife have travelled with him..well obviously she must've done if the child was born in the West Indies but was that usual?

Following similar lines my family aren't from the North of England they're from the South, that said where John Hills was born is quite close to Portsmouth which is a huge naval centre of course.

I did a search on the 1881 census with simply the surname Hills and Hill and just put West Indies for place of birth. I got quite a few hits, but for some reason the one that jumped out at me was a George J Hill born 1833, and at the time of the census is in London Hospital,Whitechapel as a patient, his occ is given as dock labourer.

I went back to searching the IGI batch records for various Sussex towns and for Goring where John Hills is born there are a number of Hills, as there are in the only other place I could find a birth for a John Hills around the right time which is Selham. However as John marries his wife Elizabeth in Goring I'm thinking that could be him. ...here's the musing bit...could he have joined the merchant navy with a brother or cousin and both their wives had children in the W Indies,hence Ellen in 1838 and George in 1833.

I know it's all conjecture really...but I'm running out of ideas..:)

I did email every West Indian archive I could think of last night so far I've had one reply this evening...but no joy I'm afraid. But still as my Nan used to say... 'if you don't ask you don't get!'

Anyone in possession of a reliable time machine out there?...apart from Dr Who!..:)

Linda

[Heather]

Musings for cogitation and possibly discussion...:)

I'm thinking along the same lines as Geoffers here, re the merchant seaman angle...and yes I agree bringing home an outside child is a bit of a long shot, but would his wife have travelled with him..well obviously she must've done if the child was born in the West Indies but was that usual?

. ...here's the musing bit...could he have joined the merchant navy with a brother or cousin and both their wives had children in the W Indies,hence Ellen in 1838 and George in 1833.

I know it's all conjecture really...but I'm running out of ideas..:)

I did email every West Indian archive I could think of last night so far I've had one reply this evening...but no joy I'm afraid. But still as my Nan used to say... 'if you don't ask you don't get!'

Linda

Quick note here (have to go out)......I sincerely doubt that any merchant seaman would have a wife and children in tow. Jamaica was not the paradise we now see it as. The women wore voluminous clothes and speaking from experience, they could not have handled it. Usually it was just men on the ships putting in for provisions, etc.

But my main point is that you are assuming this child is legitimate and Elizabeth's daughter. She probably isn't. The Jamaican parish record would either just name her as Ellen Hill or by the mother's surname (Ellen, daughter of Mary Smith, say) ......sometimes there was a "reputed father".

Heck.....I am even confusing myself on this. I would put it out on my Caribbean List, but know from experience that you probably won't get any answers because you don't have enough WI details, unfortunately.

And the LDS and the Jamaican officials had a bit of a tiff and there is nothing online of any consequence re the Islands, other than Barbados.

But it would sure be amazing to solve this one. |jumphappy

[Geoffers]

Quick note here (have to go out)......I sincerely doubt that any merchant seaman would have a wife and children in tow.

This is the stumbling block for me - However - I note that Ellen/Eleanor was born in the West Indies about 1838. Again, exploring possibilities I wonder if John had been a sailor and had travelled out the area. Perhaps he had this idea of starting a new life out there and sought assistance to emigrate as a result of the Poor Law Amendment Act; the records of which are held at Kew in document class MH12. The records are not available online and need to be searched in person.

If this is the case, presumably life was not all it was hoped to be and the family returned to the paradise of living in a hut by the road in 1841.

This is all speculation, but at least there are possibilities for research in the Register of Seamen and also the Poor Law Amendment Act records.

Is a day trip to Kew in the offing?

[lindarhead]

Morning all,

No ,Geoffers I'd afraid a day trip to Kew is completely out of the question for me, for various reasons, distance being one, health problems another so I can only rely on what I can find online or what others like you on this forum can help me with. And yes I can see that the idea of the new life under the Poor Law etc would be appealing, but sadly I can't go and check that out.

Heather I'm a tad confused by this ..you said..".But my main point is that you are assuming this child is legitimate and Elizabeth's daughter. She probably isn't. The Jamaican parish record would either just name her as Ellen Hill or by the mother's surname (Ellen, daughter of Mary Smith, say) ......sometimes there was a "reputed father"."

But yesterday you said.."The possibility that he would have brought an "outside child" back on a ship is a bit slim to my thinking....long weeks at sea...and I would assume she would be *mixed*. Not unusual or particularly shocking in the Islands, but I think the attitude in England might have been different. But who knows? Perhaps he went out earlier, the child was born, and on another trip he brought her back. I am really stretching on that one."

The way I'm reading them, one sort of contradicts the other...or am I missing something?...:)

Linda

[Mutley]

Hello Linda, I've tried to go back over the previous posts but have become a little lost. ;) So my apologies if these questions have been answered.

Do you have Ellen/Eleanor through the rest of her life?
Did she marry? Was she still alive in 1911? (possible at 73 years old)
and sometimes later census are more specific.

Did she have any children?

Are there any clues in her later life that may help? I found a newspaper report for the son of my Mary Ann, it stated he was of mixed race parentage. There can be little snippets along the way.

[lindarhead]

Hello Linda, I've tried to go back over the previous posts but have become a little lost. ;) So my apologies if these questions have been answered.

Do you have Ellen/Eleanor through the rest of her life?
Did she marry? Was she still alive in 1911? (possible at 73 years old)
and sometimes later census are more specific.

Did she have any children?

Are there any clues in her later life that may help? I found a newspaper report for the son of my Mary Ann, it stated he was of mixed race parentage. There can be little snippets along the way.
Hi Mutley,

No worries about getting lost I do it all the time!...:)

Yes I do have Ellen throughout the rest of her life, I have each census until her death in 1889. She did marry, a David Daniel[s] and they had several children, however on each census records all it says is that she's a British subject born in the West Indies. I've just come across her mother's death record in 1876 but there are no clues there either.

Thanks for posting though, it's a comfort simply knowing there is somewhere I can turn for help, or just to bounce ideas off as it were.

Linda

[Mutley]

Oh, this is a very hard one.
I did come across a marine birth at sea on FMP
Female Hill, no date, place or any indication that she could be yours so no help whatsoever :(.

Good Luck

[lindarhead]

Oh, this is a very hard one.
I did come across a marine birth at sea on FMP
Female Hill, no date, place or any indication that she could be yours so no help whatsoever :(.

Good Luck
Ah well...never mind...you tried!...:)

Linda

[Geoffers]

I'm afraid a day trip to Kew is completely out of the question for me, for various reasons,

Sorry to read that you cannot get to Kew.

If any site you ever use conducts a survey asking what records you'd like to see put online, may I recommend an answer? - 'Poor Law Amendment Act 1834 records held at The National Archives in document class MH12'.

[lindarhead]

You certainly may Geoffers!...:)

Found Ellen's death record, found every census she's on, found her mother's death and the census that her mother is on in 1871....but still no nearer an answer as to why and how Ellen was born in the West Indies.

Let's assume that father John was a sailor, either merchant or R Navy,if as Heather says they didn't take families with them how the hell is his daughter born overseas? And if he goes over there for work reasons, same question...he's got 5 children when Ellen is born he's not going to be able to afford to ship them all over to the W,Indies and back....sorry thinking out loud here, I'm just getting so frustrated by it. And the strange thing is that I've just this minute come across an 1861 census record for an Eliz Hill, same name as Ellen's mother who was born in 1802 in Jamaica! There the similarity ends as she's recorded as being the widow of a lieutenant in the R Navy....and we know that Ellen's mother was born in Sussex from all the other census records.

Linda

[Heather]

Morning all,


Heather I'm a tad confused by this ..you said..".But my main point is that you are assuming this child is legitimate and Elizabeth's daughter. She probably isn't.

But yesterday you said.."The possibility that he would have brought an "outside child" back on a ship is a bit slim to my thinking....long weeks at sea...and I would assume she would be *mixed*.

The way I'm reading them, one sort of contradicts the other...or am I missing something?...:)

Linda

OK, I am still quite confused on this but I think what I was trying to tell you is that John Hills may be the father, but the mother may not be Elizabeth. I have to say that her birth in the Islands to the above parents seems impossible from a logical point of view.

My ancestors came to Canada by ship in 1820, but they had a lot of money. I can't see an allegedly poor labourer bringing wife and several children out to the West Indies.

Just had another wild scenario. I said before that perhaps Ellen's father came out to the WI before as a sailor. Well, he could have sired a child with a local person, and on his second or 3rd trip, brought Mother and Child back to England. Mother might have not survived the trip and Elizabeth became her mother. :confused:

Sounds farfetched?? Well, it happened to mine mentioned above. Mother of 5 children died on board ship and father eventually married the nursemaid in order to raise the children in a *moral environment*.|laugh1|

This is the most convoluted ancestral story I have ever seen, but one day it will be solved. I may have to join up on Pat's site to investigate the name Hill.

I think that the latest Elizabeth you found, who was born in Jamaica, may figure into this. But how, I don't know.

Just some far-out thoughts to add to the confusion......|wave|

[lindarhead]

OK, I am still quite confused on this but I think what I was trying to tell you is that John Hills may be the father, but the mother may not be Elizabeth. I have to say that her birth in the Islands to the above parents seems impossible from a logical point of view.

My ancestors came to Canada by ship in 1820, but they had a lot of money. I can't see an allegedly poor labourer bringing wife and several children out to the West Indies.

Just had another wild scenario. I said before that perhaps Ellen's father came out to the WI before as a sailor. Well, he could have sired a child with a local person, and on his second or 3rd trip, brought Mother and Child back to England. Mother might have not survived the trip and Elizabeth became her mother. :confused:

Sounds farfetched?? Well, it happened to mine mentioned above. Mother of 5 children died on board ship and father eventually married the nursemaid in order to raise the children in a *moral environment*.|laugh1|

This is the most convoluted ancestral story I have ever seen, but one day it will be solved. I may have to join up on Pat's site to investigate the name Hill.

I think that the latest Elizabeth you found, who was born in Jamaica, may figure into this. But how, I don't know.

Just some far-out thoughts to add to the confusion......|wave|
Hi Heather...the siring of the child with a local was sort of what I said about 8 messages ago!..:)

You know I think the other Eliz I found born in Jamaica may figure too...but I don't have a clue how and I think I have enough problems with Ellen to complicate it even more, so I'll leave her out of it for now.

Linda

[Geoffers]

Found Ellen's death record, found every census she's on, found her mother's death and the census that her mother is on in 1871....but still no nearer an answer as to why and how Ellen was born in the West Indies. Let's assume that father John was a sailor, either merchant or R Navy,if as Heather says they didn't take families with them how the hell is his daughter born overseas?

As mentioned before, Poor Law records may help. The records in MH12 list names of persons applying for emigration, ages, gender, intended place of emigration, amount of relief claimed in the last 12 months and some notes. The problem is of course gaining access to them.


And if he goes over there for work reasons, same question...he's got 5 children when Ellen is born he's not going to be able to afford to ship them all over to the W,Indies and back

This is why I've been thinking about the Poor Law, no cost for emigrating; I can't help with scraping money together to return.



I've just this minute come across an 1861 census record for an Eliz Hill, same name as Ellen's mother who was born in 1802 in Jamaica! There the similarity ends as she's recorded as being the widow of a lieutenant in the R Navy

What's the census reference? - The problem here is the frequency with which the name HILL occurs.

IF there is a connection, at least tracing RN officers is simpler. IF it is your chap who fell on hard times and if you can find a first name for the officer, maybe check the London Gazette for bankruptcies?

One thing you might look at are HILL(S) families living or born in Sussex, and see if any others have any connection with the West Indies, in case there is some some family relationship.

I'm sorry that we can only at this time come up with possibilities (including the dad fathering an illegitimate child), it's a case of plugging away at surviving records - eliminating some lines - and hopefully coming up with something in the future.

[lindarhead]

Hi Geoffers, census ref for Eliz Hill born Jamiaca:

Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 79; Folio: 76; Page: 5;

Linda

[Geoffers]

Hi Geoffers, census ref for Eliz Hill born Jamaica:
Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 79; Folio: 76; Page: 5;

Thanks - the problem is the frequency with which some names occur - for example, it didn't take long to locate:

HO107/1488 f618 p26 - in Marylebone
Henry HILL, 54, barrister born Antigua
Anne B HILL, 82, mother, bn Montserrat
Elizabeth HILL, sister, unm, 50, bn Antigua

Others might also be found and it would be a stretch to imagine a connection.

[lindarhead]

Thanks - the problem is the frequency with which some names occur - for example, it didn't take long to locate:

HO107/1488 f618 p26 - in Marylebone
Henry HILL, 54, barrister born Antigua
Anne B HILL, 82, mother, bn Montserrat
Elizabeth HILL, sister, unm, 50, bn Antigua

Others might also be found and it would be a stretch to imagine a connection.
Morning Geoffers, interesting...so where did you find that then?

Linda

[Geoffers]

Morning Geoffers, interesting...so where did you find that then?

'twas just searching the census. It highlights the problem of looking for frequently occurring names - they tend to turn up somewhere at sometime, in most records.