Pre-1837 England, Pre-1855 Scotland

[cdnsctgirl]

This has probably been answered elsewhere, but I can't find it.

Where is the best place to look for ancestors who were born, were married, or died before 1837 (in England) and 1855 (in Scotland)? I know Scotland's People has a few records, but not what I'm looking for. Even censuses can only take you back so far.

I've found quite a bit of information through the IGI, though I'm guessing those records aren't quite complete either, as I can't find EVERYONE I'm looking for (especially boys for some reason!). Is the IGI based on Old Parish Registers? If so, is there any source of these online (besides the IGI)? Were the OPRs ever transcribed or kept in one place so genealogists wouldn't have to go traipsing all over Britain to find one missing ancestor?

Thanks,

Sarah

[Guy Etchells]

Parish registers are the main source, but as they are ecclesiastical records they record baptisms, marriages and burials. Having said that due to various Cannons, Acts and Orders the church registers also in many cases record births & deaths.
They are also a good source for the father’s of illegitimate children.

You mention the IGI in your final paragraph this is a complete index of the ordinances of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when used for this purpose it is 100% accurate.
The IGI is not based on Parish Registers though the registers were used as one source, of many, of information for the ordinances.

In reality a high percentage of Parish Registers are transcripts very few are original records, having been copied weekly from the incumbents day books but, I realise this is not what you meant.
Over the years since the mid to late 19th century it has been popular to transcribe Parish Registers and many transcripts have been made, however in many case these are more difficult to get hold of than the original registers.
More recently Record Societies and Family History Societies have transcribed some registers and these are often available online or by contacting the relevant society.
For example -
Freereg
Yorkshire Archaeological Society

If you search google using the term [ "parish registers" transcripts ] do not include the square brackets it will return 20,300 hits which may be narrowed down to your own area of interest by typing a town or county in the ‘search within results’ option at the foot of the page.

Many county record offices sell fiche copies of original parish registers at reasonable prices also.
Cheers
Guy

[sally]

and 1855 (in Scotland)? I know Scotland's People has a few records, but not what I'm looking for. Even censuses can only take you back so far. SarahHi Sarah
How far back were you looking for? Scotlandspeople do not have the OPR burials up & running yet but the indexes for marriages & births/christenings go back to 1553. These don't have images yet but the search results give you name, date of event, parish & in the case of birth/christening - the names of the parents.

If these don't help what is it you were hoping to find in the Scottish records?

Regards
Sally

[Mary Young]

Where is the best place to look for ancestors who were born, were married, or died before 1855 in Scotland? I know Scotland's People has a few records, but not what I'm looking for... I've found quite a bit of information through the IGI, though I'm guessing those records aren't quite complete either, as I can't find EVERYONE I'm looking for (especially boys for some reason!).
Is the IGI based on Old Parish Registers? If so, is there any source of these online (besides the IGI)?
Were the OPRs ever transcribed or kept in one place so genealogists wouldn't have to go traipsing all over Britain to find one missing ancestor? Hi, Sarah
Well you will be going through your life a disappointed gal, if you expect to find everyone you're looking for.:)
(1) Availability
The Scottish OPRs are available in one place - General Register House in Edinburgh, which is the base for ScotlandsPeople.
(2) Births and Marriages
The IGI index batches contain basically the same information as on Scotland's People, i.e. the Old Parish Registers for the Church of Scotland. "Extra" information in the IGI should be treated with extreme caution. It may be gold, but almost certainly is dross and will send you off on false trails.
Many births were not recorded, especially when it cost money. Prove this by looking at an 1855 Scottish marriage, when the parties declare whether their births had been registered. In some parishes about 30% answered "no".
And of course the OPR doesn't contain the RC Church records ... and remember that many people joined the Free Church 1842, leaving huge gaps in the OPR 1842-1855.
(3) Deaths
Very few Scottish parishes recorded deaths or burials. Gravestone inscriptions are often the only source. Consult local history society websites for list of publications. Gravestone transcripts for some parishes are available on-line.
(4) Personal Knowledge.
This is often the only source for pre-1855 information. If you are lucky, someone else has family lore, old letters, photographs etc.
(5) 1855 Bonus
Here in Scotland, we started compulsory registration later than England - and we did it better (can't find a smiley for a smirk).
You win Scotland's People, i.e. the Old Parish Registers for the Church of Scotland. "Extra" information in the IGI should be treated with extreme caution. It may be gold, but almost certainly is dross and will send you off on false trails.
Many births were not recorded, especially when it cost money. Prove this by looking at an 1855 Scottish marriage, when the parties declare whether their births had been registered. In some parishes about 30% answered "no".
And of course the OPR doesn't contain the RC Church records ... and remember that many people joined the Free Church 1842, leaving huge gaps in the OPR 1842-1855.

[Mary Young]

Hi, Sally
Sorry about the repeated text - won't try to edit - may make it worse :confused:

[Guy Etchells]

Hi, Sally
Sorry about the repeated text - won't try to edit - may make it worse :confused:

Hi, Sarah
Well you will be going through your life a disappointed gal, if you expect to find everyone you're looking for.
(1) Availability
The Scottish OPRs are available in one place - General Register House in Edinburgh, which is the base for ScotlandsPeople.
(2) Births and Marriages
The IGI index batches contain basically the same information as on Scotland's People, i.e. the Old Parish Registers for the Church of Scotland. "Extra" information in the IGI should be treated with extreme caution. It may be gold, but almost certainly is dross and will send you off on false trails.
Many births were not recorded, especially when it cost money. Prove this by looking at an 1855 Scottish marriage, when the parties declare whether their births had been registered. In some parishes about 30% answered "no".
And of course the OPR doesn't contain the RC Church records ... and remember that many people joined the Free Church 1842, leaving huge gaps in the OPR 1842-1855.
(3) Deaths
Very few Scottish parishes recorded deaths or burials. Gravestone inscriptions are often the only source. Consult local history society websites for list of publications. Gravestone transcripts for some parishes are available on-line.
(4) Personal Knowledge.
This is often the only source for pre-1855 information. If you are lucky, someone else has family lore, old letters, photographs etc.
(5) 1855 Bonus
Here in Scotland, we started compulsory registration later than England - and we did it better (can't find a smiley for a smirk).
You win Scotland's People, i.e. the Old Parish Registers for the Church of Scotland. "Extra" information in the IGI should be treated with extreme caution. It may be gold, but almost certainly is dross and will send you off on false trails.
Many births were not recorded, especially when it cost money. Prove this by looking at an 1855 Scottish marriage, when the parties declare whether their births had been registered. In some parishes about 30% answered "no".
And of course the OPR doesn't contain the RC Church records ... and remember that many people joined the Free Church 1842, leaving huge gaps in the OPR 1842-1855.

__________________
Mary Young (www.cmy.org.uk)
also testing a new photo album format at
www.iay.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

[cdnsctgirl]

Thank you, Guy, for those links. I will have a look at them shortly.

One of the most frustrating families I have run into in my search has been the HORNE family. They're Scottish, yet Scotland's People has nothing about any of their births before 1855. I found two of the girls (Agnes and Isabella) listed in the IGI for their christenings, but not their three brothers (James, Robert, and Henry). This suggests to me that all the children's christenings must be registered somewhere (why would the parents only register the girls?). The LDS obviously got the information from some old record, and it's frustrating that Scotland's People doesn't have the same info (they don't even list the aforementioned girls!).

I know I'm not going to find EVERYONE. :) I was mainly trying to say (in that sentence) that the IGI seems to list only the girls in some cases. Pretty frustrating, especially when your direct ancestor happens to be a boy born before the 1855 cut-off.

Thanks,

Sarah

[Mary Young]

Hi, Sarah
Well this is really curious. I tried to look at the IGI entries, but the girs' names are too common. Could you tell us the parents of James, Robert, Henry, Agnes and Isabella HORNE?

[sandiep]

Sarah, just aquerie I wonder if you made the same mistake as I did when I first used Scotspeople I didnt search for both male & female it has separate search fields on the statutory you can search both on OPR or either sexes.
I havent found all the info on Reips I wanted but did do better when I did a male as well as female search like you I though we were female only!!!
The bit about scotspeople not having many RC records is probably why I havent found many in OPR suppose they must have their own records anyone any ideas
sandie

[cdnsctgirl]

Their parents were David HORNE (or HORN) and Isabella HORNE (or HORN). Yes, they have the same surname (I got that from the death cert. of James. That was the only certificate on Scotland's People I was able to find. Family stories give James's birthdate as 11 Jun 1827 in Edinburgh, but I can't find any record of this.).

Agnes and Isabella were christened at "Bread Street United Presbyterian" (according to the IGI).

The children's approximate birthdates (taken from a census):

James, 1827
Isabella, 1833
Agnes, 1836
Robert, 1838
Henry, 1840

Thanks,

Sarah

[Mary Young]

Sarah, no wonder you are puzzled! I hadn’t realised that a few non-conformist records were indexed by LDS. Hugh Wallis’s Batch Numbers for Edinburgh http://tinyurl.com/43rg5 include Bread Street U.P. Church – though not C190171 (the batch for Agnes and Isabella).

Can only conclude that the boys were baptised in a different, non-conformist church, not yet indexed.

I notice “LDS submission” for baptisms of Isabella and Agnes in Newburgh, Fife. Do the census entries for the family show a Fife connection? Perhaps the mother and/or the girls were born there?

[cdnsctgirl]

Well, it was the 1841 census. For the father, the mother, and another guy named James HORNE (age 80... could be the father of either David or Isabella!), all it said for birthplace was "Outside Census County". I suppose Fife could be a possibility (Roxburgh and Caithness are other possibilities, for reasons I won't bore you with here).

I don't have access to the 1851 census... does that list an actual birthplace? If so, that might help.

Sarah

[Mary Young]

I don't have access to the 1851 census... does that list an actual birthplace? If so, that might help.
Sarah 1851 onwards, if born within the county, the actual place should be shown. If born furth of the county, only the county of birth ... unless the enumerator put in more detail than required.
What was the address in Edinburgh 1841? It may be covered in the street index, or they may even be in the name index for 1851.
"There are a few indexes available to help with searching: the Edinburgh Room has Edinburgh Census Returns with street indexes for 1841, 1851, 1861, 1871, 1881, 1891 and an 1891 Census name index for Midlothian. A published name index for 1851 currently covers the Old Town, New Town and the Canongate."

[cdnsctgirl]

Here's the info for the 1841 census for the HORNE family:

Piece: SCT1841/685/2
Place: Edinb.St Andrew-Midlothian
Enumeration District: 7
Civil Parish: St Cuthbert's
Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Roxburgh
Folio: 249
Page: 1
Address: 1 Richmond Place

It must have been a sort of tenement building, because there are a few other families listed at that address: WILLIAMS, BAXTER, WRIGHT, MCMILLAN, GLEN, BROWN, and HARDIE. By far, the HORNE family is the largest one!

I'd be willing to settle for even knowing the county of birth. At least it would give me a place to start from. All I know now is that it wasn't Midlothian!

Thanks,

Sarah

[Mary Young]

Richmond Place is tenements nowadays, though I don't know when they were built. Not sure whether it will be covered by the name index for 1851 "Old Town, New Town and the Canongate". Perhaps SKS may volunteer to consult the index for you. :)
Old maps of Edinburgh on Peter Stubbs' site www.edinphoto.org.uk (http://www.edinphoto.org.uk).

[cdnsctgirl]

FreeCEN changed on me! The "Place" was listed (as shown in my older post) as "Edinb.St Andrew-Midlothian"... now it's listed as "Canongate-Midlothian"! So I suppose it was actually in Canongate? Which means it might be in the index for "Old Town, New Town and the Canongate"... Could SKS please have a look?

Since I last posted about this family, I have done some more searching, mostly through Scotland's People, and have found nothing. These people must still be walking the earth, because they never died! I can only find death records for James (my ancestor), and I'm pretty sure the family didn't emigrate anywhere... so I'm not sure why I can't find them. SKS did manage to find a possible match for one of the girls in the 1851 census, but she was a servant, and I don't know if it is the right person (age, name, and place of birth match, but of course I can't be sure!).

Here, again, are the approximate dates of birth for the kids:

James, 1827
Isabella, 1833
Agnes, 1836
Robert, 1838
Henry, 1840

Parents were David and Isabella HORNE.

Thanks,

Sarah

[Mary Young]

Hi, Sarah
Have you looked for marriages of the children?
A search of the on-line IGI for ISABELLA HORNE shows a marriage of ISABELLA HUNTER HORNE to JAMES TWEEDIE, 30 Aug. 1857 in Edinburgh Parish.
Then the 1881 census shows ISABELLA TWEEDIE (born 1833), now residing at 2 Dalry Park Place, Edinburgh St Cuthbert's.
(Ref: FHL Film 0223992, GRO Ref Volume 685-1 EnumDist 66 Page 26)
(All born St Cuthberts, Edinburgh. )
Isabella TWEEDIE, widow, 48, head of household.
Stuart Hogg TWEEDIE, daur U 23 , millworker.
James H. TWEEDIE, son U 21, upholsterer
Andrew TWEEDIE, son U 15, blacksmith
I can check 1881 for the other children - but not till tomorrow (yawn, it's past my bedtime!) :)

[cdnsctgirl]

Yes, I've looked for the children's marriages on Scotland's People (and spent way too much money with nothing to show for it! How can these people just disappear?!). The image for Isabella Hunter HORNE and James TWEEDIE actually gives different information (it was one of the ones I looked at): married 22 Nov 1857... parents don't appear to be listed. The couple's names are listed, and James is listed as a "Paver" (that's what it looks like) and Isabella as a "Contractor". It's the oddest marriage registry I've ever seen. Unfortunately, I have no idea if it is the correct Isabella HORNE since there are no parents listed.

Thanks,

Sarah

[Mary Young]

Should have realised, you'd already covered that ground :o
What a strange marriage registration - no parents declared for either party, I've never seen that before.
Might the Horne family have just meandered from Scotland into England? Although we say "over the border", there were/are no barriers to movement. Some of my people went back and forth frequently, looking for work.
Good luck with your brick wall - it will come down one day!
BTW Loved your website, you are so fortunate to have those wonderful pictures.

[cdnsctgirl]

Might the Horne family have just meandered from Scotland into England? Although we say "over the border", there were/are no barriers to movement. Some of my people went back and forth frequently, looking for work.
I'm beginning to wonder if that is what happened. I know that James (the one born 1827) went to Berwick-upon-Tweed and married a woman there in 1852. However, he returned to Edinburgh sometime between 1856 and 1858 and remained there until his death, so I always assumed he'd gone on his own and returned to Edinburgh because his family was still there. Perhaps it was a family journey to Berwick-upon-Tweed! I'll have to look into that.

Thanks for your suggestions!

Sarah