A rose is a Rozier is a Rozzerro

[robinadexter]

Having spent a dedicated week in Chelmsford at the ERO, it now seems pretty clear that my Nathaniel ROZIER from Harwich, started life as Nathaniel ROZZERRO. His Dad was James of that name. I now have Nat in every census except 1861: 1841 - ROZZERO; 1851 - ROSERO and 1871 onwards, ROZIER. Mother, Margaret (nee Wellstead, b.1799, Rye, Sussex) appears variously as ROSINA, ROSIRA and ROZZERO (where she also mutates into Mary A!). Brother James and David are variously ROZZERO, RAZZERO and ROSIRO. I got so excited that I have even sent an article to the Essex Historian! (Yes, I DID call it 'A Rozier by any other name'!)
POINT BEING, despite my dedicated rummaging, time ran out, so I am back in Cumbria and back to begging:
if anyone has any info on James snr I should be grateful to receive it. The oldest son was born January 1832 but I think there was a daughter b 1828, so James would have been born at the latest 1816 (if I am wrong about the daughter) and probably somewhat earlier. He died between 1836 and 1851, possibly before 1841. He was a mariner. His name may have had any of the spellings above.
Margaret was still alive in 1851 but I could not find her in 1861. Any news of her then, or of her death and/or a remarriage would be very welcome. I doubt that either strayed far from Harwich except James when he was at sea.
Thanks for reading thus far.... I live in hopes.
Robina

[Colin Moretti]

Hello Robina

I've nothing specific for you but the following might lead to some further clues:

Superficially the surname appears to be Italian but virtually the only version in Italy today seems to be ROSINA (Go to http://www.gens.labo.net/ and type a surname in the "Cognome" box to see the distribution).

There is an Anglo-Italian Family History Society at http://www.anglo-italianfhs.org.uk/ but the surname(s) don't appear to be in their database. None the less it might be worth trying their mailing list, there's a link to it from the website and it's not restricted to AIFHS members.

Good luck

Colin

[Mythology]

Message removed

[robinadexter]

Thank you Mythology and Colin.
I must have been getting bleary eyed to have missed Margaret in 1861.
I will try the Italian links
Cheers
Robina

[ChristineR]

Hello Robina,

I have added your ROZIER etc, surname to my little list of names to look out for when I'm looking at the Harwich parish registers - after Easter I hope. I've already viewed some early stuff as I messed up my film order (first time) but I still have baptisms, etc from 1791 to look at. I will be looking at Church of England records, Saint Nicholas Chapel or Church.
It might be a few more weeks before the film turns up.

Christine Randall
Australia

[robinadexter]

Hello Robina,

I have added your ROZIER etc, surname to my little list of names to look out for when I'm looking at the Harwich parish registers - after Easter I hope. I've already viewed some early stuff as I messed up my film order (first time) but I still have baptisms, etc from 1791 to look at. I will be looking at Church of England records, Saint Nicholas Chapel or Church.
It might be a few more weeks before the film turns up.

Christine Randall
Australia
Thanks Christine, I think ROZZERO is the most likely permutation for James b. early 19th century or, possibly, 1790s. I think they had a daughter in 1828, but that's spelt ROGGERO!, so I may be wrong....still, there's another possibility for the spelling. Cheers
Robina

[ChristineR]

Do you think this is your suspected 1828 born daughter?
it really looked like double g, not z :D

Essex record Office D/P 170/1/11 - Item 4
Baptisms, St Nicholas, Harwich

James and Margaret ROGGERO, mariner, Harwich
dau: Margaret, born Feb 8; christened July 23, 1828

I hadn't spotted any before today, which doesn't mean they weren't there!

Christine

[ChristineR]

But now I'm thinking I didn't keep an eye out for the short variations - Rozier, and rereading your messages I see you are aware of Margaret.
:) C

[sandiep]

Hi,

I have a Rosier in my family but mine are from Suffolk but we have found name changes a lot to Rozier, Rosher, Rosier, Roseir only thing that stays same is RO!!!!

happy hunting sandie

[ChristineR]

Robina,
further to my earlier research, today when I went back I rechecked the earliest baptisms on this film (1789 - 1793) without spotting anything that could be a variation (though there was a scratch through this part of the film which did obscure the odd name)
However, I later found a burial for James which places his birth about 1788, and a little Margaret who should have been closer to 5 years old.

Essex Record Office ref# D/P 170/1/16 Item 9
Burials, Saint Nicholas, Harwich
Margarett ROZZERO, aged 3 years, buried 20 Jan 1833
James ROZZERO, aged 46, buried 22 Aug 1834
I'll keep my eye open for a subsequent remarriage.
:) Christine

[robinadexter]

Thanks Christine and Sandie for your replies. You have two extra variations that are missing from the 13 Ro---- names I already have, Sandie!

Christine: BIG thank you for the deaths. I'd love to know how James met his early end. Do you think there might be a newspaper report somewhere?

I am now certain (as I can be) that the Margaret ROGGERO baptism, which I had noted on my visit to Chelmsford, was actually ROZZERO and the death explains why she does not appear in any of the censuses, unlike her brothers. I guess that the vicar/clerk could not read his own notes when it came to doing the register entry!

No need to seek Margaret senior's remarriage, I now have her death certificate. She died in 1863 aged 62 at the same address at which she appeared as Margaret ROSARO in the 1861 census. This time the name is spelt ROZERO and she is described as 'widow of James ROZERO, seaman R.N.' If he really was in the Royal Navy it might be easier to find his origins. Margaret was the daughter of Elizabeth nee ELDERREAGE and Thomas WELSTEAD of Rye and seems to have been born in about 1799. I have had help from B-G Sussex forum there.

If you have spotted the "What's this job" thread, you may be aware that Nathaniel and David both turn up in 1861 as ROZER, though David becomes RAZER in the transcript! Now it's just what Nathaniel did for a living in 1881 that becomes the mystery.......

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to this and to the 'Job' thread.

Robina :)

[robinadexter]

Hey up Christine!
I've just realised (I can be very quick, sometimes!) that if it is 'my' James ROZZERRO who died in 1834 - and how many can there have been? - then he was not my Nathaniel's Dad! Nathaniel was born 1837, according to the Wesleyan record and his age records in the censuses.

Nothing new here ..... a maternal great grandmother registered as the father of her daughter born in 1880 the husband who had died in 1877...so it looks possible that Margaret Rozzerro was up to the same game.

I guess it's possible that my interest in the ROZZEROs is now purely academic ... pity.

If I am not careful, the Society of Genealogists will be offering me counselling....|blush| Robina

[ChristineR]

Hi Robina, I've doublechecked my notes - the death date is 1834. As to the vicar's handwriting - he has written his 'z' s with a tail like a 'g' so it is not suprising that Roggero came about. I haven't spotted a baptism for Nathaniel at all, but these are Church of England registers, or I missed it. My John Randall took 8 years off his age, but I've tracked him down.

Today, in the marriage banns I spotted:
James RIZER ?, a widower, intending to marry a Mary DEATH, spinster. Banns were called 8, 15 & 22 November 1812. And of course this film starts at 1813 with the marriage records, but has banns from 1809
:D Christine

[robinadexter]

Hi again Christine
I had a sneaky hope that you might have discovered that James died in 1837, but...ah well. I had not looked back as far as 1834, only to 1836.

Nathaniel is recorded in the Non-conformist (Wesleyan) register whose style should have been emulated by all:
"Nathaniel the son of James ROZZERO of Harwich in the parish of St. Nicholas, Harwich Essex mariner and of his wife Margaret who was the daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth WELLSTEAD [though it looks more like WELLSTRAD, but that's another story!] was born on the 4th day of June 1837 and baptised 30 June 1837"
His brother James appears on the preceding page, born 21 March 1834 and baptised 13 June 1834. So he is legitimate....

For a brief moment, I entertained the thought that Nathaniel's Dad really was Nathaniel ROZIER snr, as stated on his marriage certificate but, although not impossible, I have more or less dismissed this. He appears with mutating surname in the censuses as ROZZERO (1841), ROSERO (1851), ROZER (1861), ROZIER (1871 on board ship - while his wife, on land, is ROZIE) and then as ROZIER up to 1901. His marriage and death certs have ROZIER too, so it looks like he'd settled on that only by 1861. So, unless his dying Mum told him something we'll never know, before he married, I am now assuming 'father unknown'. My Dad would be mortified!
Personally, I find it interesting that it seems only to have been a twentieth century thing to do things in the order of marry, have kids....and even then, I'm not so sure!
Unless you or anyone else has any other ideas, I think we can draw a line under this one for now. At least it saves me from chasing the ROZZERO line any further back, unless and until I get bored with the direct lines.

Cheers
Robina:rolleyes:

[ChristineR]

Hello Robina,
I better give you this entry which I hadn't mentioned because I wanted to doublecheck the father's name recorded, which I have done so, says Thomas.

Parish records Saint Nicholas Church, Harwich
D/P 170/1/? Item 5, page 63

David, son of Thomas and Margaret ROZZERO
was born Jan 2, 1832 and christened 5 Feb 1833

Just to help with the confusion some more :D
Christine

[robinadexter]

Hi Christine,

Yes, I found that one when I was in Chelmsford in March. I came to the conclusion that young mum Margaret got confused when the vicar asked 'Father's name?'. HER father's name was Thomas. In 1841 and 1851, she has a son David living with her. Mind you, in 1841, she turns up as Mary A. Not a family to be consistent about first OR last names!! |banghead|

I have written it all up in an article for the Essex Family Historian, which will be published in the next edition or so. I have not sent an addendum with the death of James in 1834 that you found ....just in case I find a later death as well. Some hopes!!... but, for genealogical rather than moral reasons, I should prefer to discover that I do, after all, have a line to follow back, instead of an illegitimate full stop!

Thanks for your continued contribution.
All the best
Robina