Funeral in 1945

[Lindad]

Please can anyone tell me what happened about funerals during the war?

After a long, long search we finally found the death of my cousin's great grandfather. He died in hospital, in Hammersmith in August 1945. His name was Walter Hastings Cavour Hungerford.

I live at Mortlake and the main cemetaries for the Hammersmith area are all within a stone's throw of here... but he wasn't buried in any of them. I checked with the very helpful people at the Hammersmith and Fulham Archives and they are adament that he wasn't buried in any of the council cemetaries. I've also checked the local crematorium (a relatively new 'invention' in 1945) and he wasn't taken there either. The other alternative is that he was buried in a private churchyard in the Hammersmith / Shepherds Bush area - but we've been unable to find any that were being used at that time.

With the country as it was towards the end of the war, is it possible that a funeral would have been held other than in the immediate area? I know that in theory a person can choose to be buried anywhere, I just wonder how likely the reality was at that time? Some years previously he had lived in Ireland, Sidcup, Margate and Essex - but I don't think he had much money by the time he died, and he was something of a blacksheep so I doubt that he'd have been buried in a family plot...

But he must have been buried/cremated somewhere! Has anyone got any ideas?

(Apologies for you get a sense of deja-vu when reading this. I've just returned to this particular search and thought I'd posted a similar query sometime ago, but now can't find it so may have dreamt it!!)

[Colin Moretti]

Hello Lindad

Where was he living prior to being admitted to hospital, and with whom (if anyone)? Could he have been taken to that hospital from somewhere else in London or the districts to the west, perhaps for specialist treatment or because of eg war damage at his local hospital?

His body might have been returned to the place he came from for burial.

Colin

[Lindad]

Hi Colin

No, he lived in Hammersmith and died in Hammersmith Hospital. His cause of death was not war-related. At the time of his death he was living with his (4th) wife.

His first wife died in 1911 in the Bromley area. He appears to have deserted his second wife (although we don't now think they were ever actually married). He was divorced from his third wife. His fourth wife was still alive when he died.

We can think of no reason why he wouldn't have been buried/cremated locally to the Hammersmith area - especially with it still being wartime etc.

[Colin Moretti]

Hello again

You've probably checked them all, but just in case:

My trusty copy of Cliff Webb's London Cemeteries & Crematoria lists the following for Hammersmith & Fulham:

Brompton Cemetery
Fulham Cemetery
Hammersmith Cemetery
Hammersmith New Cemetery
Part of Kensal Green (All Souls) Cemetery
Mortlake Cemetery
Mortlake Crematorium
North Sheen Cemetery
West London Crematorium

Was he Roman Catholic & buried in one of their cemeteries?

Colin

[Lindad]

Thanks Colin

We don't think he was Roman Catholic... none of his weddings took place in RC chuches.

The staff at the Hammersmith and Fulham Archives appeared to be particular efficient and helpful. They told me they had checked all of the cemetaries for the Hammersmith and Fulham area. I guess I could ask them to re-check. I'm not sure that they mentioned the Brompton cemetary (although that sounds a little out of area). I contacted the staff at Mortlake Crematorium as my own grandfather was cremared there in 1942... again the staff there appeared to have a very efficient system and assured me that they could find no trace of him...

I guess I'm just wondering if, and how, funerals were affected during the war? Is there a possibility that arrangements were rather different than they would have been in peace-time? Could that be why we can't find him?

It's taken the family over 80 years to find his death! We'd just like to complete the story and find out where he was laid to rest...

[Geoffers]

Please can anyone tell me what happened about funerals during the war?
After a long, long search we finally found the death of my cousin's great grandfather. He died in hospital, in Hammersmith in August 1945. His name was Walter Hastings Cavour Hungerford.
But he must have been buried/cremated somewhere! Has anyone got any ideas?

His name rings a bell somewhere, think I must have answered something to do with the chap in the past - it'll probably come to me about 2 in the morning :)

Anyway did he by any chance leave a will saying "I want to be buried at........." or "I want to be cremated and my ashes buried/scattered at......"

Geoffers

[Lindad]

Ah Geoffers! His name shoud be ringing great clanging bells for anybody who makes a habit of reading genealogy message boards! This man has been our biggest mystery and has been the topics of umpteen posts at various times. These have brought a measure of success (ie. we now KNOW that he died in 1945 in Hammersmith... and not in 1917 in France as we had THOUGHT...) Is it coming back now?!

Did he leave a will? We wish...

Did he leave a letter or anthing about his final wishes? We haven't got a clue! As I have said, his son was lead to believe he'd died in 1917. It's a long and complicated story which I won't go into now.

The fact remains that he DID die in Hammersmith in 1945. So where was he buried???!!!!! He's keeping us guessing until the bitter end!

[Pam Downes]

Hi Linda,

I can't believe that you've nearly solved the mystery of the infamous Walter. :)
Just one thought - although people at the cemeteries have been looking for you, have they been looking for both burial and cremation, or just burial?
From my home town cemetery/crematorium, I can't remember if they use two different books. Also would it have made a difference if he'd had a church service first, and then gone for burial or cremation?
Would Brookwood have been too far out of town?
Do you know if he had any children who pre-deceased him/died in the war with whom he might have been buried?

Pam Downes

[Geoffers]

The fact remains that he DID die in Hammersmith in 1945. So where was he buried???!!!!! He's keeping us guessing until the bitter end!
Clutching at straws and since this was the end of the war, is there a notice in a local newspaper?

Geoffers

[Ron Lankshear]

My grandmother Elizabeth EAGLE died in 1942 in Shepherds Bush and is buried at Mortlake as is her son my Uncle Dave in 1965 - so I would have thought that first place to look. But sounds like you have.

I just read "History Today" Feb 2005 and they had an article on the impact on the funereal system of War Operations and how many of the dead from bombing were buried in mass graves and it seems in 1948 they allowed 5 pound for re-burial.
Your man was of course not a bombing victim but I wondered if this was causing problems even though war at a finish
Article is Managing 'Civilian Deaths Due to War Operations'

[Lindad]

My grandmother Elizabeth EAGLE died in 1942 in Shepherds Bush and is buried at Mortlake as is her son my Uncle Dave in 1965 - so I would have thought that first place to look. But sounds like you have.
Yes, Ron, my grandparents also lived in Hammersmith and were either buried or cremated at Mortlake... so I thought Walter was bound to be there too! Knowing him, I should have known better!!

[ragdollrosie]

Hi i have recently found one of my Grandmothers siblings who died in St Olave Hospital, Bermondsey, at a young age, my Grandparents were living in the area at the time, but the son was buried quite a way away in East London ( Manor Park) He is not with any other relatives, and there is no family connection with this part of London, it was a paupers burial, another child later died 2 years after, and although he too had a public grave he was buried locally. Mybe you should try to widen ur search for the final resting place of the deceased. Hope this helps Rose x

[Lindad]

In our case, because of his family situation and because he died in war time, I am convinced that he probably was buried locally in, or near, Hammersmith. It seems that he wasn't buried in any of the council-run cemeteries - but presumably there must have been some active churchyards in the area at that time.

Does anyone know of any churches in the Hammersmith/Shepherds Bush area with a graveyard that was being used in the 1940s?

[Patrisia]

Well, you have got me racking my long term memory!
My grandmother also died in Hammersmith in 1945 and she was buried in Hammersmith Cemetery, I don't think there was that much disrruption by the end of the war. I lived in Hammersmith then, and for some years after, and I am trying to get a mental picture of the cemeteries then. I can't remember any 'active' churchyards but Rob Dewsall might be of more help.

These are the ones for which googling triggers memories, some of which you have mentioned.
Margravine Road Cemetery (Hammersmith Old Burial Ground):
Burials 1869 - 1952
Mortlake Cemetery Hammersmith New Cemetery):
Burials 1926 - 1943
Index to burials 1926 - 1952
North Sheen Cemetery (Fulham New Cemetery):
Interment notices 1909 - 1964
GUNNERSBURY CEMETERY,GUNNERSBURY AVENUE
LONDON W3 8LE Distance from Hammersmith: 2.28 miles
North Sheen Cemetery (aka Fulham New) now managed by Hammersmith Borough
Another cemetery on Fulham Palace Road, Fulham Cemetery I think.

http://www.gendocs.demon.co.uk/cem.html gives lists of Victorian cemeteries, many of which were still in use in the 1940s, again most of which are mentioned.

There is also, Acton, Uxbridge and Kensal Green - not that far from Hammersmith and the right side of the river.
Good luck!

[Lindad]

Almost two years after the last post to this thread... we are still at Square One... and still looking!

If anyone has any further ideas or suggestions we'd be ever so grateful!

[bumblebee]

Lindad

I just want you to know that it took me 14 years to find my grandfather's burial place - I decided last year to start again from the beginning and courtesy of the Internet (which we did not have 14 years ago) I e-mailed all the relevant 'council bereavement' sections, within 6 hours I had a cemetery and a plot to visit (having been told 14 years ago he was most definitely not there)

Is it worth working through all the cemeteries etc again..

Bumblebee.

[Mutley]

Maybe bumblebee's advice is good.

If at first you don't succeed, try try try again (suits this hobby!!)
Did you try Brookwood, some of mine from Southwark went there?
Here is a list of links to all the London Cemeteries.

http://www.londoncemeteries.co.uk/?page=list

Good Luck
Mutley

[bumblebee]

I know this is slightly off subject but Mortlake Crematorium have an online Book of Remembrance - for any one else who has someone there. It is searchable by date so you need to have a reasonably clear idea of when they died.

http://mortlakecrematorium.org/

Bumblebee.

[Lindad]

Lindad

Is it worth working through all the cemeteries etc again..

Bumblebee.I think this may be the crucial thing. We have checked every cemetery and the crematorium and been assured (several times) by the (apparently very efficient) people who did the searches that he is not there... however, deep down inside, I simply do not believe them!

Frankly, with this particular family history as it is, it just doesn't make sense for him not to be there.

However, I think we will have to go to the Archives and do our own search. Of course, if we still have no luck... |banghead|

[Coneyman]

I know this is slightly off subject but Mortlake Crematorium have an online Book of Remembrance - for any one else who has someone there. It is searchable by date so you need to have a reasonably clear idea of when they died.

http://mortlakecrematorium.org/

Bumblebee.

Hi Bumblebee
Found this fascinating!! My Mum was cremated there, but can u tell me dyu have to request that they go in the book? as i cant find her in there. Thanx.
Mags.

[Wilkes_ml]

Are any of the burial registers available on CD from family history societies?

I had a problem trying to find my great grandfather's grave several years ago, and I'm sure I contacted all relevent councils (Dartford, Bexley, Erith area) and was told he wasn't in any of their cemeteries (he died in 1929), then a couple of days ago, I noticed the Erith Cemetery and St. Pauilinus Church, Crayford registers were on CD, purchased them, and, hey presto - there he was at St. Paulinus, Crayford.

So it may be worth looking at what the relavent Family history societies have.

Michelle

[get2BJ]

No, he lived in Hammersmith and died in Hammersmith Hospital.

We can think of no reason why he wouldn't have been buried/cremated locally to the Hammersmith area - especially with it still being wartime etc.

Hi Lindad,

When making enquiries about my uncle's grave in Camberwell, it was just assumed that he would have been placed in Camberwell New Cemetery which opened in 1927. He was buried in 1963. In fact he was to be found in Camberwell Old as there is an area set aside for Catholic burials in the Old Cemetery.

I wonder if some religious beliefs had been honoured and your relative is in an area set aside for some religion other than C of E. Hammersmith has an Old and New Cemetery and a similar arrangement to Camberwell may have been in place. I know you mentioned that he wasn't Catholic but he may have subscribed to something other than the usual C of E. Worth a thought.

Best wishes

Brenda

[Lindad]

You've all come up with so many good ideas... but we've tried them all!

About three weeks ago we visited the Hammersmith and Fulham archives and personally searched ALL of the burial and interment records for the borough. Zilch!

We then went to Mortlake Crematorium and found an extremely helpful lady working in the office (even at 5:00pm on a Sunday afternoon!) Again we searched the records for a full calendar year after the date of death. Zilch!

We contacted the cemeteries at Brompton and at Kensal Green (including the RC one). Zilch!

We have contacted the neighbouring boroughs/towns of Ealing, Brentford, Acton, Chiswick, Kensington, Chelsea. Zilch!

We honestly don't now know where else to look. He could be absolutely anywhere. There are no more obvious places to look - and if we are going to start on the unobvious... well... where would we start?!

|banghead| Time to call it a day... for now!

[Colin Moretti]

... My Mum was cremated there, but can u tell me dyu have to request that they go in the book? as i cant find her in there. Thanx.
Mags.
Hello Mags

As you've not yet had a reply to your question - I don't know about this particular book of remembrance but certainly there are others that I have had dealings with where it was necessary to pay for an entry so it's probably the case here too.

Colin

[Mutley]

Hello Lindad,
Just two 'off the wall ideas'

I had a relative died in Islington, cremated at Eltham in Sidcup, though this was in the 60's not war time. You said he lived in Sidcup so would it be worth a try?

http://www.bexley.gov.uk/service/environ/cemeteries/genealogy.html

Also, maybe stupid, but what if someone wanted their remains left to medical research? Did they have the option then?

[bumblebee]

Hi Coneyman (Mags)

Apologies for not answering your question and thanks to Colin for stepping in.

Bumblebee.

[Lindad]

Hi Mutley

Yes, we tried Sidcup / Bexley / Bromley long ago. We have just found the grave of his first wife in a Sidcup churchyard - but by the time Walter died some 34 years later, he had 'fallen out' big time with his family and as far as we can work out, none of them would give him the time of day, let alone allow him to be buried in a family grave.

The medical research question is interesting. This possibility was raised by the lady working in Hammersmith & Fulham archives. It is vaguely possible (although rather unlikely, we feel) that his body could have been donated as a cadaver - but I gather even when this happens, it doesn't prevent a funeral, it just delays it. The 'remains' are apparently returned to the family when finished with, sometimes up to a year after the death.

With best wishes,

Linda

[Lindad]

Well! Would you believe it? Just to keep you all informed... after all that, and very much against all that I had assumed and discounted as a complete and utter impossibility... we've found him!

|jumphappy

Walter is indeed buried with his first wife at Sidcup - although there is no headstone to indicate the fact. Mystery finally solved... even if it does present us with a few more questions!

Did the rest of the family know - or was he buried secretly? We suspect maybe the latter.

It just goes to show. When climbing trees you should always assume nothing and expect the unexpected!!

Thanks to all of you who have followed this saga and chipped in with ideas and encouragement!

|woohoo|

[Alan Welsford]

Brilliant,

I was new to this thread, reading it all though, and expecting to come to a final post where you were still searching.

Then suddenly, success !!!

Well done - persistence can pay off sometimes, obviously!|cheers|

Alan

[Lindad]

Well done - persistence can pay off sometimes, obviously!|cheers|

Alan

Thanks Alan! Yes, you sure do have to be persistent with this hobby. I have thought about learning to knit... but how boring that would be!! :D

[Mutley]

Well what d'ya know?
We think we know, until they prove different.

Well done Lindad for keeping at it and congratulations. so glad you have finally put him to rest. ;)

[bumblebee]

Congratulations, I am really pleased you found him in the end.

Bumblebee.