Books of the YPRS

[BeeE586]

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for easier reading - Admin

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Years ago when I was doing part of my research in Sheffield City Library I used transcripts of work published by (I think) the Yorkshire Parish Register Society. There were dozens of these volumes as I recall, not on shelves but in the stack and seemingly very little used, perhaps because few people knew of them.

Very little has been suggested for the north of the country or for pre 1800 - could something like this perhaps be considered. The Phillimore's for NTT and DBY were great, but virtually nothing else that is in the pipeline is of any use to me personally and that, naturally enough, is what most posters have been asking for.

The pre 1858 Yorkshire wills would be great, as would those from Lichfield.

|cheers| -- Eileen

[arthurk]

I haven't been following this thread, and am a bit disinclined to go through all 76 posts before replying :eek: , so apologies if I repeat anything that's higher up.


Years ago when I was doing part of my research in Sheffield City Library I used transcripts of work published by (I think) the Yorkshire Parish Register Society. There were dozens of these volumes as I recall, not on shelves but in the stack and seemingly very little used, perhaps because few people knew of them.
<snip>
The pre 1858 Yorkshire wills would be great, as would those from Lichfield.
Many, if not all, of the Yorkshire PR Society volumes are available from the Yorkshire Archaeological Society; format varies from parish to parish, but some are books, some are reproduced on fiche, and they've recently started producing their own CDs. However, another collaborative venture from ACDB might make them more widely known and available - and make everybody happy :) .

I totally agree with you on Yorkshire wills, but unless you go back to the 17th century or thereabouts, I'm not aware of any books for Rod to copy :( - apart from handwritten indexes at the Borthwick Institute, and available on film elsewhere. If he could get hold of anything to copy, I'd be first in line...

Arthur

[Guy Etchells]

Here is a short list of some scarce transcripts of Parish Registers of parishes in Yorkshire that have been previously published by various authors.

Stand alone volumes.

Calverley, 1574-1720, S. Margerison, 3 vols., 1880-9
Ecclesfield, Bap. 1599-1619, Mar. 1558-1621, Bur. 1558-1603, A.S. Gatty, F.S.A. Lond. 1878
Hawnby, 1653-1722, Miss Thoyts Olney, 1890
Hull, God's Hospital Chapel, from 1695, Sir T. Philips
Ingleby Greenhow, 1539-1800, J. Blackburne 1889
Kirkburton, 1541-1654, F.A. Collins Exeter, 1887
Roos, R.B. Machell Hull, 1888
Rotherham, 1542-1563, J. Guest
Topcliffe & Morley, Bap. 1654-1830, Bur. 1654-1888, W. Smith Lond. 1880

In addition other transcripts have been printed in other books and periodicals

The following were also in manuscript form in 1892 when this listing was compiled in
Report on the Transcription & Publication of Parish Registers, &c. 1896

Batley, Bap. and Bur. 1559-1812, Mar. 1559-1803, Mich. Sheard.
Egton, Mar. 1622-1761, Bap. and Bur. 1622-1779.
Farnham, 1570-Bap. and Mar. 1721, Bur. 1720, Dr. F. Collins.
Hemsworth, 1553-1688, Rev. J.H. Bloom, M.A.
Kirby Fleetham, 1591-1718, Chester MSS.
Kirkdale, 1580-1762, Chester MSS.
Knaresborough, 1561- Bap. 1767, Mar. 1751, Bur. 1764, Dr. F. Collins.
Mirfield, 1559-1606, Par. Church.
Sheffield, Bap. 1559-1603, Rev. C. V. Collier.
Sheffield, Bap. by Rev. Jollie, 1681-1704, Brit. Mus. Add. MS. 24486.
Wintringham, 1558-1700, Chester MSS.
Wragley 1538- Rev. E. Sankley.
York, St. Martin-cum-Gregory, 1540-1780, Indexed to 1740, Rev. e. Bulmer.

Cheers
Guy

[Rod Neep]

Many, if not all, of the Yorkshire PR Society volumes are available from the Yorkshire Archaeological Society; format varies from parish to parish, but some are books, some are reproduced on fiche, and they've recently started producing their own CDs. However, another collaborative venture from ACDB might make them more widely known and available - and make everybody happy :) .

Arthur
Unfortunately, and I do mean unfortunately, there is a bit of history to this.

Some time ago Ancestry published some of the books of the Yorkshire Parish Register Society that were under copyright, and without permission. The Yorkshire Archaeological Society, who own the copyright, justifiably took them to task about it! In a big way.

The end result is that Ancestry used its might (and considerable bank balance) to buy off the Society, and acquire the rights to publish ALL of the YPRS volumes. I gather that a considerable amount of money was involved.

The end result is that only Ancestry have the rights to re-publish those books. It is my personal opinion that it is a great shame that such an important set of British resources can now only be purchased from an American company. I am amazed that it was allowed to happen. But big money talks.

Rod

[BeeE586]

Rod - I am in total agreement, that is a scandal. Since reading Arthur's post I have looked at the YAS site and there are fiche and CDs as he says, sadly none of them for 'my' parishes. Who, then, owns the copyright of those publications, and if, for instance, someone was to buy a fiche, transcribe and submit to FreeREG, would they be breaking copyright regulations ? Similarly with the list Guy submitted - who would own the copyright of those ? [Not that I am volunteering, I am fully committed for the time being]

To Arthur and Guy - thank you for the information, even though I cannot use it at this time. One of these days I will make a hole in the highest and densest of my stone walls and find the Millthorpe clan !!!

|cheers| -- Eileen

[arthurk]

Some time ago Ancestry published some of the books of the Yorkshire Parish Register Society that were under copyright, and without permission. The Yorkshire Archaeological Society, who own the copyright, justifiably took them to task about it! In a big way.

The end result is that Ancestry used its might (and considerable bank balance) to buy off the Society, and acquire the rights to publish ALL of the YPRS volumes. I gather that a considerable amount of money was involved.

The end result is that only Ancestry have the rights to re-publish those books. It is my personal opinion that it is a great shame that such an important set of British resources can now only be purchased from an American company. I am amazed that it was allowed to happen. But big money talks.
I knew there had been a problem over Ancestry putting the YPRS data on their CDs and website and that it was eventually settled, but I didn't know all the ins and outs of it. I hadn't realised that Ancestry ended up with exclusive rights - so does this apply to all the other county parish records CDs that they publish?

Arthur

[Guy Etchells]

No, and it does not stop other transcribers reverting to the original parish registers and transcribing those either.
Cheers
Guy

[jeannie]

No, and it does not stop other transcribers reverting to the original parish registers and transcribing those either.Hi Guy

Was your answer "No" to Eileen

Who, then, owns the copyright of those publications, and if, for instance, someone was to buy a fiche, transcribe and submit to FreeREG, would they be breaking copyright regulations ? or to Arthur?

I hadn't realised that Ancestry ended up with exclusive rights - so does this apply to all the other county parish records CDs that they publish?Or both?

Thanks
Kind Regards

[Guy Etchells]

Ancestry does not hold exclusive copyright to any parish registers or census information at all, though they do hold the rights to particular transcribed works as Rod mentioned.

If a member of the public wishes to revert to the original registers or to the enumerators returns and transcribes the data they are perfectly at liberty to do so.

I would also add that if any concern claimed exclusive rights to such data in any area which interested me that would simply act as an impetus for me to transcribe that particular data and make it available free of charge to all on the web.

There is a big difference between a company making data available at a reasonable cost and a company claiming exclusive rights to data whether that is made availble free or for a price. The first deserve protection both in law and morally, the second don't.
Cheers
Guy

[Rod Neep]

Rod - I am in total agreement, that is a scandal. Since reading Arthur's post I have looked at the YAS site and there are fiche and CDs as he says, sadly none of them for 'my' parishes. Who, then, owns the copyright of those publications, and if, for instance, someone was to buy a fiche, transcribe and submit to FreeREG, would they be breaking copyright regulations ? The Authors own the copyright in the parish register publications of the Yorkshire Parish Register Society. The Yorkshire Archaeological Society, (having a vested interest) police that copyright on behalf of the authors. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with them doing that.

The Society assigned the rights on re-publishing those books to Ancestry. The contract was written such that no-one else can re-publish them.

If someone bought those books or fiche and re-indexed them in a different format, then:
A) It would antagonise the Society
B) The names and dates are not copyrightable, and therefore one could do it.

Rod

[Rod Neep]

I knew there had been a problem over Ancestry putting the YPRS data on their CDs and website and that it was eventually settled, but I didn't know all the ins and outs of it. I hadn't realised that Ancestry ended up with exclusive rights - so does this apply to all the other county parish records CDs that they publish?

Arthur
It applies to re-publishing the books of the YPRS only. (But not the ones that are already out of copyright).

I might add, it also applies to the series of books of "Alumni Cantabrigensis", of which Ancestry also acquired sole reproduction and re-publishing rights. Fortunately, "Alumni Oxonienses" is not under the same restriction, and therefore it was possible for Archive CD Books to re-publish those books on CD.
Rod

[arthurk]

Thanks for all the explanations - seems like nothing's ever as simple as we think it ought to be |banghead|

Arthur

[Rod Neep]

Its one of the things that makes my job interesting ;)

Cheers
Rod

[BeeE586]

I never thought when I posted to 'What next' that it would lead to such an informative thread. Thank you all for explaining some of the ramifications of the laws of copyright - I have a much clearer picture now.

:) -- Eileen

[arthurk]

The Authors own the copyright in the parish register publications of the Yorkshire Parish Register Society. The Yorkshire Archaeological Society, (having a vested interest) police that copyright on behalf of the authors. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with them doing that.

The Society assigned the rights on re-publishing those books to Ancestry. The contract was written such that no-one else can re-publish them.Do you know how this affects lookups on this forum? Someone has asked a question on the WRY board (title mentions Owston parish) which I could answer by quoting from the YPRS transcript of the PRs. Would it be wrong for me to do so, and what if I replied privately?

Interestingly, the only copyright notice in the book refers to "Editorial matter", which I take to mean the introduction, indexes etc, rather than the actual entries.

(Hope you see this, Rod - I'd hoped you might pick it up from the WRY board, but you apparently haven't yet.)

Arthur

[Rod Neep]

I said for licence reasons on certain publisher's CDs.


I'd been hoping that he might notice my question here, but as he seems not to have done I'll find somewhere else to ask him.

Arthur
I am not in a position to give a definitive answer on that, as I do not have that CD, (and it is not an Archive CD Books CD), and therefore I have not seen the licence.

Regards
Rod

[BeeE586]

This continues to be an interesting and informative thread. I have a question ----- if Arthur were to answer the aforementioned look-up request, who would know HOW he had acquired the information, whether from fiche, CD, YPRS published transcript, his own personal records or from the original register ?

Speaking for myself, I still have my original paper records begun almost thirty years ago when I did not know what I know now - who did ? Mostly they were from original sources; actual registers, fiche or film of actual registers, census or other records, but in some cases from published transcripts, e.g. Eyam Registers published by the Derbyshire Record Society, Phillimore Marriages, old transcripts of registers for Worksop and Carburton (to name but two) in Nottinghamshire, and others that I have probably forgotten about.

I would not knowingly offend against copyright regulations and I applaud Rod's stand concerning the strictures laid down by other companies, but, after this length of time how would I know what was legal and what was not ?

I have single name databases which I pass on to fellow researchers (and always have done). Take NTT Laneham as an example. I have family from there and looked at all the registers twenty years ago. I bought the fiche of the Volume of Phillimore Marriages which included Laneham and have recently bought Rod's CD. My records will simply state NTT Laneham St Peter, but not HOW I got the information. |help| please.

Eileen

[arthurk]

My query about this relates to a PR transcript in book form, not a CD. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I don't know whether the PRs in question (Owston) are included in the Ancestry CD, though it seems likely. But that's not the point, unless the Ancestry licence somehow restricts what I do with my book - and if it does, how am I supposed to know about it?

What I'd like to know is whether there is a B-G Forum policy on lookups from books. As Eileen says, I could have just answered the query and no-one would have known where I had the information from. However, as Rod pointed out in another thread, it's always best to quote sources.

So now I'm totally confused. Which of these does B-G Forums recommend?
(a) answer the query with the help of my book, and say where the information came from - with the knowledge that I might possibly be breaching some copyright and/or licence
(b) answer the query with the help of my book, and not say where the information came from - so no-one can judge how accurate my answer is
(c) just ignore the request

|help|

Arthur

[Guy Etchells]

You have highlighted on of the reasons why it is necessary to cite sources adequately.

In your Laneham example if you simply give NTT Laneham St Peter as the citation you have no way of knowing that you have referenced a transcription rather than the original register in which there could be a number of differences.

It is also important to note when you accessed that particular source as there may be additions over time, or one may have to return to the source as the relationships in ones family history are revealed.
Cheers
Guy

[Guy Etchells]

My query about this relates to a PR transcript in book form, not a CD. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I don't know whether the PRs in question (Owston) are included in the Ancestry CD, though it seems likely. But that's not the point, unless the Ancestry licence somehow restricts what I do with my book - and if it does, how am I supposed to know about it?

What I'd like to know is whether there is a B-G Forum policy on lookups from books. As Eileen says, I could have just answered the query and no-one would have known where I had the information from. However, as Rod pointed out in another thread, it's always best to quote sources.

So now I'm totally confused. Which of these does B-G Forums recommend?
(a) answer the query with the help of my book, and say where the information came from - with the knowledge that I might possibly be breaching some copyright and/or licence
(b) answer the query with the help of my book, and not say where the information came from - so no-one can judge how accurate my answer is
(c) just ignore the request

|help|

Arthur


(a) You cannot breach any licence agreement if you were not notified of it prior to purchasing the item licenced, therefore if there is no notification on the book you will have little to worry about.
Every published work is subject to copyright unless the copyright has expired or has been waived. As a rule of thumb if it was published over 100 years ago the copyright will have expired.

Data (facts & figures) is not subject to copyright but may be subject to licence or database rights.

(b) If you choose that route you may foil any attempts to sue for breach of copyright or licence but you will not be giving the best help possible.
Cheers
Guy

[Rod Neep]

This continues to be an interesting and informative thread.

Speaking for myself, I still have my original paper records begun almost thirty years ago when I did not know what I know now - who did ? Mostly they were from original sources; actual registers, fiche or film of actual registers, census or other records, but in some cases from published transcripts, e.g. Eyam Registers published by the Derbyshire Record Society, Phillimore Marriages, old transcripts of registers for Worksop and Carburton (to name but two) in Nottinghamshire, and others that I have probably forgotten about.

I have single name databases which I pass on to fellow researchers (and always have done). Take NTT Laneham as an example. I have family from there and looked at all the registers twenty years ago. I bought the fiche of the Volume of Phillimore Marriages which included Laneham and have recently bought Rod's CD. My records will simply state NTT Laneham St Peter, but not HOW I got the information. |help| please.

Eileen

Snipping out the "legality" part, and concentrating on our records and research. Our records should contain details of the source of the information. (Yes, I know, we all started out by not doing it!)

In my database, I actually give the source a "rating".

5 = I have a copy of the original document
4 = I have seen the document with my own eyes, and have transcribed it to the best of my ability
3 = I have seen it myself, but I have doubts (be honest!) about my transcription
2 = It is from someone else's transcription or someone else's records
1 = It is from an unreliable source or index - e.g. the IGI
(yes, some index entries in the IGI are reliable, but there is no way, in all honesty, that I can give it a higher rating without confirmation).

Then also in my database and records, I have a note of the exact source from where I obtained the information. If a source falls under 1 or 2, then it certainly needs checking before it can be used with any confidence.

Regards
Rod

[arthurk]

Every published work is subject to copyright unless the copyright has expired or has been waived. As a rule of thumb if it was published over 100 years ago the copyright will have expired.
If I understand correctly, you are implying that publishing the results of a lookup in a transcript published by a FHS over the last 20-30 years may well be a breach of copyright - and presumably if anyone were to do that on B-G Forums it could also land Rod in hot water for encouraging it, or at least permitting it.

Do you know what the position would be if I responded privately, or if I gave the information from the transcript in my own words?

Arthur :confused:

[Guy Etchells]

No, in copyright there are allowances made for fair use (fair dealing), in addition data is not copyrightable and so it would be acceptable to provide a lookup.

Many have tried to set limits on fair dealing but judges have ruled that it may be as little as a few words or as much as the entire book. It depends on circumstance and the importance of the section copied.

Lookups are not normally restrained by copyright but rather by licence.
Cheers
Guy

[arthurk]

No, in copyright there are allowances made for fair use (fair dealing), in addition data is not copyrightable and so it would be acceptable to provide a lookup.
<snip>
Lookups are not normally restrained by copyright but rather by licence.
Thanks for this, Guy.

So, to clarify, where a book is presenting data (as in a PR transcript), it's the presentation that is copyright, not the data itself? And this kind of restrictive licence is what you agree to when installing software/opening a CD box etc, rather than anything to do with books?

Sorry to be a nuisance, but I think I'm getting there...

Arthur

(And being slow has its advantages - I've got to 30 posts now so I'm no longer just a Junior Member |woohoo| )

[BeeE586]

Thank you gents. one and all. The salient point was "knowing then what I know now !" I always did keep notes of dates when and places where research was done, Piece and folio numbers of census and so on, but not whether I consulted an actual document, a film or fiche or a transcript. To find this out I would have to re-do all that branch of my research and since that is quite impossible I must just make do with what I have. As I said, I know that a vast amount was taken from actual registers - there were very few transcriptions or indices in those days.

Eileen

[arthurk]

Thanks for everyone's help and advice on all of this.

Arthur