When you've only got a name..... :(

[Summer]

Hi all,
Trying to find out more info on Catherine STEEL, who married my greatX5 grandfather James COWEY in Northumberland (Tynemouth) on the 8/7/1800 (by Banns).
I have found her in 1851 and 1861 English census when living with her daughter Jane CHISHOLM and her ages are recorded 77 and 90 respectively. She is also listed both times as being born in Scotland, hence my thread appearing here. I have her death cert too which has her dying in 1866 at the age of 96. So a range of possible birth years to search.

I gather I'm to look for a birth record, somewhere in Scotland, between the years of 1770 and 1775?? My question is then, when you have no other info but a name and a vague date, how do you shortlist? Is it possible to positively identify my ancestor from that? I note from Lesley's stickies too that, if Catherine was RC or other religion than Church of Scot, then perhaps the records won't be easily found anyway? Where are the "non-conformist" records - have they even survived?

I have tried IGI and have a few "potentials" with varying spelling but no way to rule any out! Any advice for a Scot records newbie?
Cheers,
Summer.

[sally]

Hi Summer

Not sure if you have checked the ScotlandsPeople site but I did a search for Catherine STEEL/STEAL born 1765-1780 anywhere in Scotland and there were no entries.

Hopefull someone else can advise where to find other birth/baptism records.

Regards
Sally

[Hugh Thompson]

HI Summer, there are some registers at the Internet Archives, I have found a few there, mind you it will keep you busy for a while, have a search for,
Scottish Record Society, and also,
The Scottish antiquary; or, Northern notes & queries
Hugh.:)

http://www.archive.org/index.php

[JustJean]

You've got a tough situation here. Pinpointing one precise birth with only a general year range, a name, and the whole of Scotland to consider borders on the impossible dream. You are correct in that if she was not baptized within the Church of Scotland then you'll not find a record (if it even exists) on ScotlandsPeople. The chief repository for Catholic and dissenting records is the NAS. http://www.nas.gov.uk/catalogues/default.asp At some point in the future these will be available online but at the present time it's only a work in progress. YOu can consult their online catalogue to see what is in their collection but not knowing a precise location within Scotland makes this an exercise in futility.

A couple of suggestions....do you know if Catharine had any siblings? Any indication of interesting given or middle names to the children she had with James COWEY? Finding their marriage on the IGI indicates they were wed in Christ Church in Tynemouth. If Catharine was living in Tynemouth at the time of her wedding (do the banns have any indications they were both of that parish?) then it's possible she was with her whole family and there might be a wedding of a close in age sibling near in date to hers. A search for STEEL marriages in the Christ Church batch file indicate a total of ten...

1. ELIZABETH STEEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Marriage: 29 OCT 1806 Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

2. HENRY STEALL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 01 JAN 1798 Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

3. ALEXANDER STEEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 10 MAY 1794 Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

4. CUTHBERT STEEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 14 AUG 1813 Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

5. JOHN STEEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 29 APR 1809 Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

6. WILLIAM STEEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 11 MAY 1809 Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

7. RACHEL STEELS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Marriage: 07 MAY 1812 Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

8. CATHARINE STEEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Marriage: 08 JUL 1800 Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

9. ANN STEEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Marriage: 18 FEB 1806 Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

10. ELEANOR STEEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Marriage: 27 APR 1800 Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

ANy of those given names appear as children of Catharine and James??

You can see that it can be a process of gathering clues by looking in the vicinity of the event that might give a lead.

No other suggestions at the moment....

Best wishes
Jean

[Nicolina]

you might also try looking around the Berwick area. The Scotland / England border actually runs through the town. Also borders do tend to change over the years.

[Summer]

A couple of suggestions....do you know if Catharine had any siblings? Any indication of interesting given or middle names to the children she had with James COWEY? Finding their marriage on the IGI indicates they were wed in Christ Church in Tynemouth. If Catharine was living in Tynemouth at the time of her wedding (do the banns have any indications they were both of that parish?) then it's possible she was with her whole family and there might be a wedding of a close in age sibling near in date to hers. A search for STEEL marriages in the Christ Church batch file indicate a total of ten...

1. ELIZABETH STEEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Marriage: 29 OCT 1806 Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

2. HENRY STEALL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 01 JAN 1798 Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

3. ALEXANDER STEEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 10 MAY 1794 Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

4. CUTHBERT STEEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 14 AUG 1813 Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

5. JOHN STEEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 29 APR 1809 Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

6. WILLIAM STEEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 11 MAY 1809 Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

7. RACHEL STEELS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Marriage: 07 MAY 1812 Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

8. CATHARINE STEEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Marriage: 08 JUL 1800 Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

9. ANN STEEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Marriage: 18 FEB 1806 Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

10. ELEANOR STEEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Marriage: 27 APR 1800 Christ Church, Tynemouth, Northumberland, England

ANy of those given names appear as children of Catharine and James??

You can see that it can be a process of gathering clues by looking in the vicinity of the event that might give a lead.

No other suggestions at the moment....

Best wishes
Jean

Hi all - thanks for your suggestions and comments, all a big help!! :)
Jean,Regarding your specific suggestions:

Banns records I've been told have not survived unfortunately!

#8 Catharine Steel is indeed the Catherine/Catharine I'm looking at. I have noted #10 Eleanor Steel (married James Cummins) down as a possible sibling to Catherine previous to your post, but thanks for the others as they may provide leads down the track.
Unfortunately, I hardly know anything for certain about the children of James and Catherine apart from George Cowey (who I'm decended from) and Jane Chisholm (from census).

I have a few potential children: a James Cowey who married Jane Pattison in Christchurch 20/2/1819 by lic, an Elizabeth Cowey [father James] m. William Lenney at Christchurch 1838, and a Peter Cowey b.~1813 who keeps popping up along the way. I have no baptism records for any of these people (including George and Jane), and that remains to be a big item on my brickwalls list as I can't find anything in relevant year ranges at Christchurch!!

Thanks again to everyone - don't know if I'm missing a step with what I've answered here? Also, apologies for late response, haven't been up to much genealogy lately with 5 weeks to due date!!

[JAP1]

Hello Summer,

Just a slight clarification (very much over-simplified!) re the Church of Scotland and the use of the term "non-conformist" (which was not a Scottish usage).

The Church of Scotland was what would have been regarded as a "non-conformist" church in England.

It was a Presbyterian church - not an Anglican church. In Scotland the equivalent of the Anglican church was the Episcopal Church of Scotland. Incidentally, Presbyterian churches did not have bishops.

ScotlandsPeople has only the records of the 'established' (presbyterian) Church of Scotland. But there were also many other presbyterian churches - breakaway groups from the 'established' Church of Scotland; the records of some of these churches are included in the IGI.

A good diagrammatic representation of the splitting and re-grouping of the presbyterian churches in Scotland is to be found at:
http://website.lineone.net/~davghalgh/churchhistory.html
It is an invaluable guide for newcomers to Scottish research.

Another good tool can be found in the Statistical Accounts of Scotland at:
http://edina.ac.uk/stat-acc-scot/
These were written by ministers of the 'established' Church of Scotland, and often contain information about the numbers attending the various different churches in their parishes.

Regards,

JAP

[JAP1]

Hi again Summer,

I notice from the censuses that James CHISHOLM was from Scotland.

Following on from my previous post, here are two baptisms of children of James CHISHOLM & Jane.
*Katharine Cowey CHISHOLM b 19 Sep 1835, bap 19 Feb 1836
*Eleanor CHISHOLM b 17 Apr, bap 18 May 1837

These baptisms are listed as having taken place at:
"Norfolk St Assoc Cong Or Secession Or Sconorth Shie"
I take this to be a rather poor abbreviation for:
Norfolk Street Associate Congregation or Secession or Scotch (church) in North Shields.

Some relevant information is at:
http://www.geocities.com/stcolumbasurc/
and leading from that at:
http://www.geocities.com/stcolumbasurc/Historybooklet.html (it includes a couple of mentions of Norfolk St).

Cheers,

JAP

[JAP1]

And (finally, I think!):
1841 census
HO107/piece 826/book 3/ED 5/f 14/p 21
Wellington Street, Tynemouth
CHISHOLM
James 25 J. Shoem. b Scotland
Jane 25 born in Northumberland
Catherine 6 born in Northumberland
Eleanor 4 born in Northumberland
James 2 born in Northumberland
Margaret 1 born in Northumberland

But here's an intriguing entry for the next household - make what you will of it:
COWEY
Peter 55 J. Shoem. b Scotland
Catherine 60 (?)Ind. b Scotland

Unfortunately the 1841 doesn't show marital status or relationships ...
I notice that in the 1861, Catherine COWEY, Jane's mother, is recorded as a Mariner's Widow.
Perhaps Peter might be a brother of Catherine's husband James??

Regards,

JAP

[DBCoup]

Have you looked at Catherine's marriage entry? I suspect that the age given is likely to be more accurate than those given on the census (assuming that she was not hiding any thing at the time - ie advancing or reducing her age etc did she really marry at the age of 30?), after all probably Catherine was not the one answering the census taker's questions.

What names did she use for her children? Any named after the grandparents? It may help limit your work in looking at multiple possibilities.

With the marriage taking place in the south Steel might be what was written for Steil[l]
eg IGI
1. KATHARINE STEIL - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Female Christening: 22 OCT 1769 Errol, Perth, Scotland
(daughter of Daniel Steil and Ann Richie)

Just some random thoughts

Good luck
daryl

[Summer]

But here's an intriguing entry for the next household - make what you will of it:
COWEY
Peter 55 J. Shoem. b Scotland
Catherine 60 (?)Ind. b Scotland

Unfortunately the 1841 doesn't show marital status or relationships ...
I notice that in the 1861, Catherine COWEY, Jane's mother, is recorded as a Mariner's Widow.
Perhaps Peter might be a brother of Catherine's husband James??

Regards,

JAP

Thanks for all the info and suggestions JAP. Shoemakers (and mariners/shipwrights) appear as professions in my Cowey family. Jane Chisholm's husband was also a shoemaker, and I've often thought that it could be a link. I'm not sure what the "J" stands for after Peter's age? I'd gather that "Ind" as Catherine's occupation indicates "independant means" which may then indicate that she was a widow? That fits with my Catherine as her hubbie James (who was a mariner [merchant navy]) died in 1833.

Peter may indeed be a brother (or other relation) of James Cowey, and expanding that thought may then also be a potential name for one of their sons (in reference to the Peter Cowey that keeps popping up for me). The hard thing is now to prove/disprove!!! I quickly looked at IGI for Peter Cowey b.~1786 +-2 years and only one Peter Cowie came up for Scotland (Falkirk, Stirling) details of siblings also, but alas no James! (There wasn't many Peter Cowie's +-10yrs either, only 6) I'll have to check SP too though.

Also, can you clarify - the "Norfolk Street Associate Congregation or Secession or Scotch (church) in North Shields" is classified non-conformist in England, but the equivilent of "Church of Scotland"/Presbyterian in Scotland?? Or would this too have been "breakaway"? Just trying to work out whether these folk are most likely to be included in Church of Scotland records.

Ta!

[Summer]

Have you looked at Catherine's marriage entry? I suspect that the age given is likely to be more accurate than those given on the census

What names did she use for her children? Any named after the grandparents? It may help limit your work in looking at multiple possibilities.

With the marriage taking place in the south Steel might be what was written for Steil[l]
eg IGI
1. KATHARINE STEIL - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Female Christening: 22 OCT 1769 Errol, Perth, Scotland
(daughter of Daniel Steil and Ann Richie)


Hi Daryl - thanks. In answer to your questions:

*Catherine's marriage entry is a one-liner in Bishops transcripts (Would the IGI film yield more info???) On this transcript no age listed, only her and her husband's names and the date and that the marriage was by Banns. Therefore, at this stage I can only work from the censuses/death cert ages and go backwards to try to find a record of her birth. I was looking at her because I had nothing on her husband James regarding birth. I don't know where he was born - Scotland or England are the guesses at this stage! Who knows!

*I only know of 2 confirmed children at this stage - George and Jane, and I don't know the parents of Catherine or James at this stage. Looking for George or Jane Steel or George or Jane Cowey of a grandparent age is like looking for a needle in a haystack as I have the same problems as I do now, meaning not enough info to whittle down the potentials and there are a few!

*Have considered the spelling may not be STEEL when searching for Catherine's birth, but again, what do I do with that, apart from just keeping an open mind? Maybe I'm missing what you mean? :)

Thanks for your questions, keeping the mind active!

[JAP1]

Hi Summer,

I assume that J. Shoem. = Journeyman Shoemaker i.e. a qualified (Journeyman) Shoemaker but not yet a Master Shoemaker (a Master being able to employ others).

As for the church descriptor: well I would take it that it means that they were Presbyterian but were not members of the 'established' Church of Scotland. But I can't guarantee that. However Associate Session/Secession (see that diagram I mentioned) usually meant a breakaway group. Often a huge breakaway group with at least as many members as those of the established church in a parish! And it's always possible that people moved down from Scotland to nearby England because of religious hangups! I can't tell but I'd go for breakaway group.

But remember, 'established' Church Ministers were always keen to record as many people as possible - thus many folk from breakaway groups were also recorded in the OPRs courtesy of the 'established' Church Ministers! (I have some such! - though they would have hated it had they known!!)

All the best,

JAP

[DBCoup]

*Have considered the spelling may not be STEEL when searching for Catherine's birth, but again, what do I do with that, apart from just keeping an open mind? Maybe I'm missing what you mean? :)

Thanks for your questions, keeping the mind active!

Just that I could not help but notice that

KATHARINE STEIL - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Female Christening: 22 OCT 1769 Errol, Perth, Scotland

would be 96 in 1866 (well for most of it anyway). And approaching 100 may have been enough to make sure that they were accurate about her age.

[Summer]

Thanks again JAP and Daryl. :)
In my rummaging last night I found a potential James Cowie (husband of Catherine) birth record on IGI, using hints from this thread as a helper. I looked for James Cowey/Cowie with a wife of Jane (as I know that a potential brother of George married a Jane) with the thought that maybe it could also be potential names of the parents of James (George's father), as I know he had a Jane as a daughter too. Complicated to try to explain with all the similar names!!

Anyway, found a christening in Etal, Northumberland (close to Scotish border) of James Cowie [parents James Cowie and Jane ?] on the 3rd August 1777. My James Cowey is listed in Christchurch, Tynemouth Bishops Transcripts as dying in 1833 (buried in January) at the age of 55, which I thought was pretty close!! That coupled with the knowledge that he definitely had a daughter by the name of Jane, it's possible that he named her after his mother?! Well, that's my logic anyway. Couldn't see any other Cowie's in that area though, although I've probably overlooked something. And perhaps they weren't originally from there as JAP theorised re religious hangups.

Or perhaps it has nothing to do with my family at all!!!! |doh| The glass is half full, hey!!! |5cups| :rolleyes: