Help with handwriting

[Jan65]

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr216/Janice1965/Image1.gif

I have admitted defeat with the last two/three words on this line. It is only the fifth line of the will, and I believe the first few words say:

"... defender of the faith and in ??? ???? ? ?????..."

I can't even decide whether there are two, three or four words, and if I read each letter in turn, I come up with:

c?th yonedy a tely

which I can't make sense of whichever way I look at it, although each time I do, some of the letters change!

For context, I reckon that the first few lines of the will say:

"In the name of god and of the glorious and blessed / Virgin our Lady Sainte Mary and of all the holy / company of Heaven We Henry by the grace / of god King of England Frannce and Ireland / defender of the faith and in ???? ?????? ? ???? / under God the Supreme Hed of the church of / England and Ireland of that name the eight / calling to our remembrance the great gifts ..."

Hoping that someone can put me out of my misery!

By the way, I haven't finished the will yet! Have done 19 pages, but keep tiring of it and having a break before going back to it.

[pottoka]

Defender of the faith and in earth?

[sueannbowen]

Hi Janice - what period is this? I have a very handy book that gives examples of old handwriting which might help.

:) sue

[pottoka]

"ymdyatily" ... immediately?

giving: "Defender of the Faith and in earth immediately under God the Supreme Head of the Church of England."

Just that has given me a headache - rather you than me: good luck!

[Jan65]

Defender of the faith and in earth?

Thanks Pottoka. Hmmm. I'm fairly sure of the "th" at the end of that word, but am also fairly sure that it begins with a "c" as that is fairly consistently the way a "c" was written throughout the document. But I'm no expert by any means, so am prepared to accept any and all suggestions! "in earth" could well make sense in the context, couldn't it?

I'm not at all sure about the second letter. It may well be two letters. Sometimes I think it looks like an "a", other times I think it could be an "is" (there seem to be two dots floating above these letters).

Like I said, each time I look, I see something different!

Any ideas about the following one/two/three words?

[Jan65]

[QUOTE=pottoka;291901]"ymdyatily" ... immediately?
QUOTE]

!!!!!!!!!!! Pottoka, I think you've got it, I think that's definitely what it says! I can see it now! Thank you, thank you, it's been bugging me from the start!

Still not sure about the "earth" but hey, you got "immediately", so who am I to argue?!

Janice

Edit - whoops, quote didn't work.

[sueannbowen]

If we are taking the word faith as OK then the th matches Pottokas 'earth' suggestion. Bit difficult to compare with just that line to go on.

[Jan65]

Hi Janice - what period is this? I have a very handy book that gives examples of old handwriting which might help. :) sue

Thank you Sue. This is Henry VIII's will, from the mid 1500s. Any help very welcome! Also - what is your book, and where did you get it?!

[terrysfamily]

WILL OF HENRY VIII (1546)[1]



Henry R. In the name of God and of the glorious and blessed Virgin, our Lady

Saint Mary, and of all the holy company of heaven, we, Henry, by the grace

of God king of England, France, and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, and in

earth immediately under God the supreme head of the Church of England and

Ireland, of that name the eighth, calling to our remembrance the great gifts

and benefits of Almighty God given to us in this transitory life, give unto

Him our most lowly and humble thanks, acknowledging ourself insufficient in

any part to deserve or recompense the same, but fear that we have not

worthily received the same....

[Jan65]

If we are taking the word faith as OK then the th matches Pottokas 'earth' suggestion. Bit difficult to compare with just that line to go on.

I'm fairly sure of the word "faith", but I can't decide what that word says. Earth I think is a good possible, but why "in earth" rather than "on earth"? Unless it DOES say "on earth". But I think that's an "i" rather than an "o".

I'm going round in circles ...

[sueannbowen]

Cool! It is called 'Examples of English Handwriting 1150 - 1750 by Hilda E.P. Grieve. ISBN number is 0 900360 313 it is an Essex Record Office Publication. Bascially she gives examples of old handwriting and then a transcription, all taken from Essex documents. It demonstrates the style which can be jolly handy! Probably got it from the Essex Records Office.
:)
Sue
ps I agree with Pottoka's 'immediately'.

[terrysfamily]

for more info on his will see

http://www.constitution.org/sech/sech_076.txt

[Jan65]

WILL OF HENRY VIII (1546)[1]
Henry R. In the name of God and of the glorious and blessed Virgin, our Lady

Saint Mary, and of all the holy company of heaven, we, Henry, by the grace

of God king of England, France, and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, and in

earth immediately under God the supreme head of the Church of England and

Ireland, of that name the eighth, calling to our remembrance the great gifts

and benefits of Almighty God given to us in this transitory life, give unto

Him our most lowly and humble thanks, acknowledging ourself insufficient in

any part to deserve or recompense the same, but fear that we have not

worthily received the same....

Thank you terrysfamily, that's more or less what I had transcribed. I'm trying to avoid looking at the official version until I've finished it myself and can then see if I've got it right! All part of the fun!

At least, if this is the official transcript, it's solved the "earth" problem, so thank you!

[Jan65]

Cool! It is called 'Examples of English Handwriting 1150 - 1750 by Hilda E.P. Grieve. ISBN number is 0 900360 313 it is an Essex Record Office Publication. Bascially she gives examples of old handwriting and then a transcription, all taken from Essex documents. It demonstrates the style which can be jolly handy! Probably got it from the Essex Records Office.
:)
Sue
ps I agree with Pottoka's 'immediately'.

Well I think I'll have to try to get hold of one of those, as it sounds fantastic in its own right, not just to help me with this. Thanks Sue!

Edit - PS I'm off to bed now, so sorry if I don't ymmedyately reply to anyone else! J x

[pottoka]

I definitely think it's "in" earth.

If you think of the Lord's Prayer, there are both versions in that: "in earth as in heaven", and "on earth as in heaven", depending on the church you attend. Or, in my case, the rules of English grammar and simple logic as set down by one of the teachers at my primary (church) school who decreed that we can only walk on the earth.

[Jan65]

Thank you Finbar, for the link - will be exploring this in the next few days when I have time to browse, and Pottoka for your help and suggestions. It does seem as though it's "in earth" although I would say that grammatically that's not really correct (perhaps we shared the same English teacher?!) Not being a particularly religious person I had to recite the whole Lords Prayer to myself before being able to say that I was taught "on earth as it is in heaven".

[Geoffers]

It does seem as though it's "in earth" although I would say that grammatically that's not really correct

What is correct now may not have been a matter of concern 400 years ago. In order to interpret (and understand) the writing in these older documents it is important to avoid preconceptions as to what is right or wrong.

[JAP1]

Here's a reference which mostly gives in/yn earth/earthe/yearth but also has on earth ...

http://www.jfrankhenderson.com/pdf/sovereignpope.pdf

JAP

[Jan65]

Thank you Geoffers and Jap1, for your help. Very interesting to see "in earth" as well as "on earth". Janice

[Titanicfan]

Hi Janice,

I'm very impressed and interested with your transcriptions of Henry VIII's will. I mentioned previously that I was really interested in transcribing Elizabeth I's will and I contacted the Royal Archives, British Library and The National Archives to try to locate a possible will but unfortunately I have had an email reply back from the Curator of Medieval and Earlier Manuscripts at the British Library who says that he has been unable to discover any reference to Elizabeth's will, and can only conclude that one was never drawn up. This is in line with her views on the succession, on which she seems never to have declared an official interest. No will survives at either the British Library or The National Archives.

Such a shame - although Elizabeth has written plenty of other correspondence that I could try to obtain a copy of and attempt to transcribe I suppose. Maybe David Starkey would know more as he seems to be an expert on the Tudors?

Keep up the good work, Janice - I eagerly await more details. :)

[Jan65]

Thank you Titanicfan for your encouragement. I'm afraid I've slowed right up on the transcription - I'm onto page 20 of the 27. There's such a lot of repetition in it that it can actually become a bit boring, so I just transcribe now in fits and starts as the mood takes me, and am slowly making my way through it.

Such a shame that it seems Elizabeth didn't leave a will - I went and looked in one of my favourite books about her (Elizabeth the Queen by Alison Weir) and there doesn't seem to be any mention of a will. According to that book, she apparently "named" James as her sucessor whilst on her deathbed, and didn't speak his name but mimed a crown on her head with her hands, which her attendants interpreted as wanting King James to succeed her. Seems a bit tenuous to me, but there we go!

I'll have a look back at my transcription and see if I can find some more interesting bits to post here for you to read. Or perhaps I'll tag them onto the other thread.