CATHERINE AARON-DENTIST 1851 [Archive] - British Genealogy & Family History Forums

SRFENN

05-10-2009, 10:10 AM

Hello,
I've read your threads on Catherine Aaron with interest and wondered whether you help me a bit further. I also found Catherine Aaron dentist in the 1851 census but can't locate her before or after; have you managed to? My great grandfather was Moses Aaron born C.1829 and I have found who I presume must be him and his mother, Catherine, in 1841 although the surname is spelt Aron and she was born in 1791. Do you think she is the same person as the 1851 one?

The 1851 Catherine is supposed to have ben born in Curtain Road, Shoreditch and her son Moses in "Holloway" but it seems more likely that, as a road name and not a place is given for Catherine, the same is probably true for Moses and, so, it is likely that he was born in Holywell Row or Holywell Lane which crosses Curtain Road half way along it, and Holloway is not accurate.

My own Moses has different birth places on all subsequent censuses and it is impossible to know which one, if any, is correct. As he was born in 1829 I can find no registration of his birth and do not know how to find Jewish birth records if, indeed, they exist at all???

You say that the 1851 Catherine was married to Aaron Aarons. Do you have any more information; dates and places of births, marriage? The son of my Moses and my grandfather was Aaron Lewis Aaron who later changes his name to Lewis Aarons and he was born in Barnsbury in 1861. You say that your Aarons dropped the "S" from their name so, perhaps, Aaron Lewis put it back again???

You also mention that your Catherine had brothers named Barnett, Isaac & Moses and that her father was Samuel. The 1841 Catherine had sons named Samuel, Joseph, Isaac, Barnet & Moses and daughters Ester & Elizabeth.

Finally, the story in my family is that Moses "came from Russia" but this could mean that his family originated in Russia (or Poland which was part of russia at that time).

There seem to be a lot of coincidences and, given the lack of any other Catherine in the censuses, either before 1851 or afterwards (I can't find any at all), it seems likely that there is a connection somewhere.

I should be interested in any further information or thoughts you might have on all of this.
Regards,
Steve

phillip

05-10-2009, 6:20 PM

Dear Steve
Catherine Aaron (s) nee Crawcour and Aaron Aarons had the following children:
Samuel Aaron b abt 1818 Middx lived at 3 Norwich Court Middx 1841
Joseph Aaron b abt 1824 died Sept 1826 lived at 3 Norwich Court Middx 1841
Isaac Aaron b abt 1826 lived at 3 Norwich Court Middx 1841
Barnet Aaron b abt 1828 Middx lived at 3 Norwich Court Middx 1841
Moses Aaron b abt 1829 Holloway. He lived at 3 Norwich Court Middx 1841 and York St Newington Lambeth Middx in 1851
Elizabeth Aaron b abt 1831 Middx. She lived at 3 Norwich Court 1841
Esther Aaron b abt 1833 Middx . She lived at 3 Norwich Court 1841.

Nb The first names Samuel, Isaac, Barnet, Moses are also the names of Catherine's brothers ( see my Crawcour postings).

Aaron Aarons in 1827/28 was a clothes salesman. He lived at 5 Russell Court Drury Lane and was there until at least 1832( see the National Archives and the Jewish records under the JGSGB data bases). Catherine was born abt 1785 Middx - in 1841 she was a clothes salesman and in 1851 was at York Street Newington Lambeth. She died 24 Jan 1858 at 3 Clare Street Bethnal Green Middx.

Catherine's parents were Samuel Crawcour 1748-1816 surgeon dentist from Cracow Poland hence the derivation of the Crawcour surname and his wife Rebecca ?

There are data bases on some of the synague records under the British Jewry site and look on the Cemetry Scribes site for the tombstones of the above- I can't remember if some of them are recorded.

It looks as if you have a connection to my lines.
Hope this information helps.

The data my cousin Pat and I hold on the Crawcour lines is extensive and world wide.
Phillip

phillip

05-10-2009, 7:14 PM

Steve
Was Moses married to Catherine Jonas in Sept 1860?
What other data do you have on your lines? If you look on Genesreunited under Moses Aaron you will see several researchers who have his name on their tree- the connection is usually via Joseph Aaron who married Ann Tellow.
Regards
Phillip.

Ps There are 3 death entries for Aaron Aarons between 1837-1851 - you might want to get the certs and see if Catherine is named- see Free BMD

SRFENN

06-10-2009, 7:41 PM

Thanks for the reply.

So the 1841 and 1851 Catherine's are one and the same then are they? If Catherine was born 1785 then the 1791 date in the 1841 census is wrong? So how did she go from a clothes seller in 1841 to a dentist ten years later? There is also an Elizabeth Aron in the 1841 census born 1786 who I assume must be Catherine's suster-in-law. As Catherine's daughter Ester was born in 1833 then Catherine's husband must have been alive until at least 1832 and you say that he was at Russell Court, Drury lane until at least that date so, presumably, that's where Catherine and the children were also at that time and, presumably, Aaron died between 1832 and March 1841 as he is not in the 1841 census? Do you have a place and date of birth for Aaron Aarons and do you know whether he, or his family, were from Cracow as well?

I am afraid I have nothing much else on the early Aaron history other than census information so, unfortunately, will not be able to reciprocate your valuable assistance to any great extent. I can confrim that Moses Aaron did, indeed, marry Celia Jonas in 1860 and their son was Aaron Lewis Aaron (my grandfather). I've got back to John Joshua Jonas born 7/!/1796 in Whitechapel, Middlesex, son of Israel & Leah.

As I said previously, Moses Aaron has different places of birth in every census:-

1841 Middlesex
1851 "Holloway", Middlesex
1861 Strand, "London"
1871 Middlesex
1881 Bethnal Green, Middlesex
1891 Oxford Street, "London"
1901 not known, "London"
1911 St. George-in-the-East, Middlesex

All very confusing and unhelpful. Any ideas? I'd really like to pin him down to a definite place of birth.

Thanks and best regards,

Steve

phillip

07-10-2009, 1:10 PM

Steve
I can answer some of your questions- first of all Catherine ( Kitty) Crawcour came from a family of dentists - see all my postings on Crawcour- her brothers David my 4x great grandfather; Moses; Barnett; Isaac and their father Samuel were all surgeon dentists.
The 1841 census for dob were rounded by 5 years. I have no idea where Aaron Aarons came from but the Crawcour and associated families were all Ashkenazi Jews from Poland/Germany/Russia. On the subject of the Jonas line I will need to check my data but I think I have other Jonas connected by marriage.

If you look in Doreen Berger's 2 volumes The Jewish Victorian. Genealogical Information from the Jewish Newspapers 1861-70 you will see entries to Aaron/Crawcour/Jonas etc

You will need to check for your lines but all the Crawcour world wide originate from one progenitor- Samuel Crawcour 1748-1816 my 5x great grandfather.

Hope this helps
Phillip

phillip

07-10-2009, 1:16 PM

Steve
In Berger 1861-70 there is an entry for John Jonas died 3.3.1867 17 Vyse Street Birmingham age 70- relatives Isaac Jonas; Rebecca Jonas son and daughter- any relevance? There are other entries to various Jonas
Who do you want me to look up?
Phillip

phillip

07-10-2009, 2:07 PM

Steve
If you look on the London Gazette Archives under John Jonas you will see several of that name including:
John, Jacob, Emanuel Jonas tobacconist/cigar manufacturers 1844; John Jonas Prospect Place Southwark 1844; John Jonas, Abraham Marks, Myer Levy Jacket waistcoat and trouser makers 7 Hutchinson St Gravel Lane 1860
and others
You might want to look at other relatives who might have been in trade.
Phillip

phillip

07-10-2009, 2:32 PM

Steve
I have access to the Genesreunited census records but can't locate Moses Aaron post 1841 could you please post details of where he was and what his trade was plus family so that I can re-check.
Thanks
Phillip

SRFENN

07-10-2009, 10:49 PM

Thanks for replies Philip. I'd really like to know how you managed to get addresses before 1837??? I have read your Crawcour postings and appreciate the fact that at they were all dentists but Catherine would still have had to qualify (presumably?) if she wanted to progress from being a clothes seller and why was Moses a bedstead maker and not a dentist as well?

I think it would be best if I list what I have on Aaron & Jonas lines and anything you can add would be very helpful.

Aron/Aaron/Aarons

Catherine Aron (Aaron in 1851)
B. 1791 (or 1786) Middlesex (possibly Curtain Road, Shoreditch although 1841 census states "foreign")

Moses Aron (Aaron in 1851), Catherine's son
B.C.1829 Middlesex (any of 4 different locations)

M. Celia Jonas Sep. qtr. 1860 St. James Piccadilly, Middlesex

Aaron Lewis Aaron, son of Moses & Celia
B. 7/4/1861 17, Arthur Terrace, Caledonian Road, Barnsbury, Middlesex

In 1861 census Moses is shown as "Masco" - furniture dealer 7 Celia is shown as "Celica"; probably just mis-readings.

In 1871 census Moses is living at Ossulston Street, Somer's Town, Middlesex.
He is shown as "John" Aaron & Celia as "Selina". There is also a Rachel Abraham, niece living with them.

In 1881 census Moses is living at 84, Crawford Street, St. Mary;ebone, Middlesex. He is shown as "Thomas" Aaron, furniture dealer & Celia as "Selia".
Rachel Abraham(s), niece is still with them.

In 1891 census Moses is living at 12, London Road, St. George-the-Martyr, Southwark, Surrey. His son Aaron Lewis Aaron is head of the house 7 both father & son are both house furnishers.
Rachel Abraham, cousin still there.

In 1901 census Moses Aarons (now with the "S") is married to Hannah Newman and living at 14, Doughty Street, St. Pancras, Middlesex. "Raie" Abrahams, niece, is still with them.

Aaron Lewis Aaron (now known as Lewis Aarons) is living at 9, London Road, St. George-the-Martyr, Southwark, Surrey. He is still a furniture dealer.

In 1911 census Moses Aaron (no "S" this time) is a widower and still at 14, Doughty Street. Rachel Abrahams is no longer there.

Lewis Aarons & his 5 children are living at 284, Essex Road, Canonbury, Middlesex. Alice Eliza Fenn (my grandmother) & her 8 children are living at the same address. The house is in the name of Alice Eliza Fenn. Lewis Aarons is a widower & furniture dealer.

Jonas

John Joshua Jonas, son of Israel & Leah
B. 7/1/1796 Bethnal Green, Middlesex
John Jonas married Elizabeth ............ B.C. 1800

Celia Rebecca Jonas, daughter of John & Elizabeth
B. 28/10/1828 Mile End New Town, Middlesex

In 1841 census John Jonas was living at Mayfields Buildings, St. george0in-the-East, Middlesex. John was a general dealer.

Celia was resident at the Palestine Place Hebrew School, St. Mathew, Bethnal Green, Middlesex.

In 1851 census John Jonas was living at 25, Artillery Street, Bethnal Green, Middlesex. He was a writer.

Neither John nor Elizabeth appear in any later census.

I have information on other members of the two families from various censuses and a little information from street directories on the whereabouts of Aaron Lewis Aaron in the 1890s but not a great deal else.

Hope this is of interest.

The things I should really like to know are:

1) where was Moses Aron (Aaron) born? From what you stated about Aaron Aarons being at Russell Court, Drury lane between 1827 & 1832 it would seem that Moses must have been born there which might agree with the "Strand" entry in the 1861 census. If, however, the 49, Strand premises were still owned or occupied by the family, and, if he had actually been born there, then the 1861 census would be accurate.

2) where was Aaron Aarons born? Was it Poland or England?

3) When did the Crawcours and, possibly, Aarons arrive in England?

4) If the Aarons were form poland as well as the Crawcours, were they also from Cracow?

Probably you can't supply the answers but, if you have any other facts that can fill a few more gaps I should be extremely grateful.

Best regards,

Steve

phillip

08-10-2009, 6:20 AM

Steve
A few answers to your questions- there were few qualified/trained dentists in Europe/UK/America during the 18th and early/mid 1800s- there are various publications on the subject which confirm this. It was easy to call yourself a 'dentist' without undergoing any medical training. If Catherine was of 'foreign' birth in 1841 as you suggest then that raises significant doubts on her being Catherine Crawcour because her father was in England by at least 1770- there are newspaper advertisements which show that Samuel Crawcour was in Gloucester by 1772 and had established himself in business in London by 1790.

You ask about early records- my distant cousins hold copies of the transcribed Great Synagogue Marriages and births from 1790- these can be bought- plus there are the Susser Archives which contain various early records and there are also the Hambro records on British Jewry. In addition, the Hyamson and Colyer Ferguson family histories at the Society of Genealogists contain records of hundreds of Anglo Jewish families- I hold many copies of these relating to my lines. There are also the JGSGB records including family trees.
The Mormon's also hold films of the synagogue records including untranscribed data some of which is in Hebrew- I have accessed these records.

In short, I would recommend that you take a look at these records- I have not searched for Aaron or Jonas and suspect you would find relevant information.

We know where the Crawcour line came from through the family trees and other data but as I said before I do not know where Aaron came from.

It looks as if Catherine needed to supplement her work when Aaron died - have you got his death cert?

Phillip

phillip

08-10-2009, 7:43 AM

Steve
In 1786 Samuel Crawcour was at Short Street Middlesex and by Oct 1779 was at 46 Strand. This data is taken from his advertisements as dentist.
I will look up 49 Strand in the National Archives.
The 1841 census does show Catherine Aron as being of Foreign birth with Elizabeth Aaron age 55. However the 1851 Census gives a different birth location. The 1841 census was not always accurate or reliable and depended on who answered the census questions.
Phillip

SRFENN

08-10-2009, 6:07 PM

So we're still not sure whether the two Catherine's are the same person. The point is there are no others in the 1851 census, not with a son named Moses of the correct age so I am pretty sure they must be the same person. The "foreign" birth is perplexing but, possibly, Catherine and Elizabeth couldn't remember where they were born, or never knew, and, if their parents were of foreign birth, perhaps they thought they were also. The four different birth places for Moses could be because he just didn't know and made different guesses at each census???

No I haven't got Aaron Aarons' birth certificate but I might order it. Can't afford too many certificates at £7.50 a time though.

How did you know that Catherine married Arron Aarons and do you know when and where this took place?

Again, if Aaron Aarons was Moses' father and Moses' son was named Aaron Lewis Aaron, it sems highly probable that they are the same family.

Are there Jewish B.M.D. registrations before 1837? Presumably, if there are, they are held by the individual synagogues???

I'll let you know when I get Aaron's death certificate.

Regads,

Steve

phillip

08-10-2009, 6:20 PM

Steve
If you look on the Old Bailey Trials Online you will see Aaron Aaron as a witness 1813 - he said he was a clothes salesman at Russell Court Covenant Garden. Note the spelling of his surname- no 's'

If you also look under the surname Jonas you will see various names but I noted Joshua Jonas 1805 who kept a fish shop Rosemary Lane; Moses Jonas and his 2 children Benjamin and Rachel 1817- Holywell St clothes salesman; Benjamin Jonas 446 Strand tailor and draper 1826; Ann and John Jonas High Street St Leonards Shoreditch 1815; Joseph Jonas broker.

I have this site very useful because you can sometimes pin point relatives who were witnesses or defendants.
Hope this helps
Phillip

SRFENN

09-10-2009, 7:39 AM

Thanks again Philip. Seems that the Aaron and Jonas families might well have known each other from the Shoreditch area.

A couple of other names you might know something about? I might be mistaken but I thought I saw the name Nathan in one of your postings? The wedding invitation of the marriage of Aaron Lewis Aaron to Kate Goldberg in 1888 was from Moses Aaron and Mrs. L. Nathan. Don't know whether they were living together or whether she was just a friend of the family or perhaps Kate Goldberg's Godmother or something?

This was the Jewish wedding ceremony that took place at the New Synagogue, Great St. Helens, London on 19/12/1888. There had already been a civil ceremony in 3rd qtr 1887 in Marylebone reg. dist.

The other name is Zacharias Nichollas (or Nicholls) B. Westminster, Middlesex and living in St. Luke, Middlesex in 1861, Newington, Surrey in 1881 (can't find him in 1871), possibly stil in Newington in 1891 and in Deptford, Kent in 1901 where my grandmother was a tenant. There seems to be some connection between the Nichollas family and the Aarons but they were probably just friends or business associates.

Moses Aaron's second wife Hannah Newman (already mentioned) came from Portsea, Hants. and his niece Rachel Abraham (also already mentioned) came from Southsea, Hants. so there seems to be some link to the Portsmouth area too. Of course, these are very tenuous links but it seems probable that they all knew each other and had business connections. All very interesting anyway.

Any more information from your end would be most welcome.

Best regards,
Steve

phillip

09-10-2009, 3:34 PM

Steve
I do not have a copy of Berger 1871-80 but in the 1861-70 book there are:
Barneh Goldberg death 1864 father of David and Louis City Road; David Goldberg marriage 1870 to Bessie Levy daughter of Alexander Levy- connects to Louis Barnett brother in law and Hannah Levy.

There are numbers of Nathan listed in Berger- any more data you want me to check specifically
Phillip

phillip

09-10-2009, 4:14 PM

Steve
Amongst my Crawcour relatives I have:
Louisa Crawcour m Isaac Nathan on 10 August 1847 New Synagogue. Isaac was the son of Nathan Nathan. Isaac was born abt 1821 and in 1847 was a general dealer. He lived at 2 and 16 Duke St Old Artillery Ground.He died after 1850 and Louisa re married to John Foley. Children of Isaac and Louisa - Elizabeth m Thomas Phillips; Rose m Charles Campbell; Nathaniel m Esther N Marks.

In Australia Verna Sylvia Nathan daughter of S Nathan b 1888-1947 m Isaac Crawcour - their children- David Samuel Crawcour 1909-1981; Morris Crawcour 1884-1964

Phillip

SRFENN

09-10-2009, 4:53 PM

No, nothing I can think of at present other than what I have already mentioned unless you can find anything on the Nichollas (Nicholls) family. I have the following addresses for them:-

1861 1, Ironmonger Street, St. Luke, Middlesex
1871 Can't find him
1881 44, Falmouth Road, Newington, Surrey
1891 Visitor with his wife Helena at 39, Cook's Road, Walworth, Surrey
1901 44, Edale Road, Deptford, Kent

N.B. Cook's Road & Falmouth Road are both fairly close to York Street, Walworth where Catherine and Moses lived in 1851. I have not found Zacharias Nichollas in 1851 but there might be some connection somewhere???

Steve

phillip

09-10-2009, 7:26 PM

Steve
Take a careful look at the Cemetery Scribes site which has hundreds of Jewish burials recorded.
Look at Aaron Aarons b Hague Netherlands and the entries for his 2 wives- Catherine Solomons and Hannah Levy. Note where the two wives died- in 1814 and 1819 - Russell Court. There is also the tombstone for a Aaron Aarons died 1842.

There are synagogue records of Aaron Aarons and his 2 marriages- I am wondering if he married for a 3rd time or has my cousin Pat got it wrong about Aaron Aarons of 5 Russell Court being the same person who married Catherine Crawcour- is he a different Aaron or the same person. The question is how many Aaron Aaron (s) clothes salesman were around at the same time and who had died by 1841 census?

The Great Synagogue Marriages show:

Aaron Aarons ( Heb:Aharon b Yakoov Haag, father:Yaakov Haag and Catherine Solomons( Heb:Goldi b Zeligman;father: Zeligman married 5 Nov 1792

Marriage of Aaron Aarons ( Hebrew:Aharon b Yaakov Haag: Father Yakoov Haag ) and Hannah Levy ( Hebrew Hindlie b Yosef Yehuda Levi)
No residence is given for either marriage but as you can see from the Cemetery scribe records both wives died in a short time

What do you think?
Phillip

phillip

09-10-2009, 7:44 PM

Steve
The cemetery scribes records show that it was Aaron Aarons daughter Catherine who died in 1814 - Russell Court and his first wife Catherine Solomons had died before 1793 when he re- married Hannah Levy 23 Oct 1793.
If this Aarion is the same person who married Catherine Crawcour then you now know where he came from and who his father was - Jacob Hag ( Hague)
Phillip

SRFENN

09-10-2009, 9:45 PM

Don't understand what the Scribes site means by "family 2" & "family 3"; what was "family 1" then???

He didn't waste any time getting re-married agter Catherine Solomons died did he?

So we don't know who the mother of Catherine was. Was she the product of an earlier marriage (family 1)? or was she one of Hannah Levy's children?

None of it helps a great deal does it?

If your information on Aaron Aarons being at 5, Russell Court between at least 1827/8 and 1832 is correct and, if the Aaron Aarons from the Hague was there from 1814 to 1819, they must be the same person.

The dates of birth of Catherine's children from the 1841 census are between 1818 and 1833 so that would fit with the 5, Russell Court dates for Aaron Aarons.

If Catherine Solomons died before Oct. 1793 they cannot be her children and they cannot be Hannah Levy's children as her name was not Catherine. It is difficult to believe that Aaron Aarons married a third time and to another Catherine and, as Hannah Levy died in 1819 it rules out a third wife because Samuel Aron (as spelt in 1841 census) was born to Catherine in 1818 unless he was actually Hannah's child and the next child Joseph (B. 1824) was the first birth of the new "third" wife???

Are you positive about Catherine Crawcour marrying Aaron Aarons? Where did this information come from? It would seem that, either the Catherine Aaron dentist in 1851 census is not the same as the one in the 1841 census but it is hard to believe that they both had a son called Moses born in 1829 or, the Aaron Aarons who married Cathrine Crawcour is not the same as the one born in the Hague and living at 5, Russell Court.

Alternatively, the 1841 Catherine (and, possibly also the 1851 Catherine if the same person) might not have married anAaron Aaron at all but a different Aaron (or Aron) altogether. I did find a Samuel Aron who died in Whitechapel reg. dist. in the March qtr. 1841 before the census and, as his name was Samuel and Catherine's eldest son was Samuel I was pretty sure I had found the correct candidate. I did get his death certificate and he actually died in Christ Church Spitalfields workhouse so it gives no address and no spouse and I cannot even read his age properly; it could be 93, 98, 73, 78 or, unlikely, 11 or 18, none of which helps much. I suppose it is possible that he went into the workhouse and the rest of his family did not but who knows?

All in all, then, things seem to be getting more complicated instead of clearer and I doubt if we shall ever find the true answer.

Steve

phillip

10-10-2009, 8:20 AM

Steve
It was my distant cousin Patrick in Melbourne who did the research on the Aaron line and our data has usually been correct not least because we hold hundreds of records on the families. In this case I think that the GRO Death certs for both Catherine and Aaron might hold clues to the relationships. The Colyer Ferguson collection also contains records of PCC wills pre 1858 but I have never looked for Aaron(s). Similarly, the Colyer Ferguson and Hyamson collection may hold family tree records of the Aaron(s) family. There are records of the Crawcour lines in the collections and I hold these plus several others. We hold no confirmed proof that Catherine married Aaron Aarons of Russell Court but again Jewish marriages were not required to be formally registered until the latter part of the 1800s.

Also, the 1841 census returns on dob are not accurate so you would need add several years. I would not rule out Aaron and Catherine Crawcour being 'married'.

I think it would pay you to visit the Society of Genealogists in London and search the Anglo Jewish collections- there are hundreds of trees. You might strike lucky- equally I am also planning to do London research and could take a look.

Phillip

I do not think this is too hard a nut to crack because the data also allows us to eliminate people. Can I suggest that you put a posting on British Jewry because this is a more specific site and in the past I have had a lot of help from people world wide. You have nothing to lose.

SRFENN

10-10-2009, 8:53 AM

So you are saying that the the Scribes site listing of "family 2" and "family 3" for Aaron Aarons of The Hague means that there was definitely a "family 1! as well?

Even so, this would mean that "family1" was even earlier than the other two and that "wife 1" would have had to have died before 1792 which totally rules out the possibilty of it being Catherine, mother of Moses born in 1829.

Or are you saying that the daughter Catherine who died in 1814 was the daughter of Catherine Solomons who, presumably died in childbirth in 1792?

There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that there was a third marriage after Hannah Levy and nothing, so far, to support the assumption that Aaron Aarons married Catherine Crawcour. We are just as stumped as we were before and even more confused.

Also confused by your statement on 1841 dates of birth. You say in post 147 that several years must be ADDED but, previously, you said that the 1841 census dates were rounded up by 5 years so Catherine Aron b.1791 was actually 1785/6 - 5/6 years EARLIER.

I'm glad you are optimistic about cracking this nut because I am not.:confused:
If you still want to try to crack it I'd be very pleased to learn anything further you can discover.

Best regards,

Steve

phillip

10-10-2009, 10:30 AM

Steve
In the 1841 census the ages from 15+ are usually rounded down. Have you looked on the Cemetery Scribes site?

What I will do is to visit the SOG in London and do further research. I have already asked Pat to confirm his sources. Also, there are researchers on Genesreunited who have Moses Aaron on their tree. Have you contacted them? I am working on other family lines but I will get back to you.

As I said before the relationships need working out.
Are you going to buy any GRO Certs to check deaths etc if not I will.
Phillip

SRFENN

10-10-2009, 11:17 AM

Well. as I said before, I can't afford too many certificates but I thought I would get Aaron Aarons death in 1838 which might help a little. My membership of Genes Reunited has expired and I do not really want to spend more money there. Yes, I did look at Cemetery Scribes site and saw Aaron Aarons and his two wives but little else that was relevant. Also looked at Old Bailey site but didn't find anything more than what you told me about. Nevertheless, they both seem to be very good sites and might yield more in the future.

I'll be interested to learn if Pat can verify his information and advise why he is so certain about Aaron Aarons marrying Catherine Crawcour and if he has anything further to add. I really would like to crack this if possible.

Regards,
Steve

phillip

11-10-2009, 1:19 PM

Steve
Pat has contacted me regarding Catherine Aarons nee Crawcour and her marriage to Aaron Aarons. The evidence he has sent shows that there was definite relationship between Catherine and Aaron Aarons. This is what Pat has sent me:
The GRO Death Certificate of Catherine Aarons
28 January 1858 Hackney Road Middx
3 Clare Street Bethnal Green
Catherine Aarons female age 72 widow of Aaron Aarons master tailor- cause of death Chronic bronchitis ( dropsy) Informant x The mark of Mary Bland present at death 3 Clare Street Bethnal Green

We also have the will of Moses Crawcour 1858 who left a bequest to his sister "Kitty Crawcour- Catherine Aarons" she died the same year as her brother so never benefited from his bequest.

Next, we believe that Rebecca Crawcour wife of Samuel was a Levy and the first name Joseph runs throughout the Crawcour/Cashmore/Abrahams lines- Joseph Aarons was we believe named after his relatives. Rebecca Crawcour was living at Russell Court in 1817 ( Sun Fire Policy) and we think it too coincidental bearing in mind the other records that her daughter was not the same Catherine who married Aaron Aarons also of Russell Court.

There were very few women dentists in 1850 and we think it too extreme that a widow with 7 children would suddently practice dentistry unless she had a background of that skill. Joseph in 1841 is also listed as a tailor the same occupation as his father.

So, unless you think otherwise we are pretty sure that Aaron Aarons of Russell Court and Catherine Crawcour were married and that Moses is one of their sons.

If you look on the Dutch Jewry site under Ashkenazi Marriages Amsterdam you will see numbers of Aarons/Aron. The use of surnames by Jews was rare prior to the 1800s and you would need to look under the patrynomic name - Jacob.

In the JGSGB 1851 Census Petra Laidlaw has recorde Barnett Aarons as being at a shoe maker at 28 Castle Place b 1828 and in the house of Alexander Solomon a shoe maker.

Let me know what you think
Phillip

SRFENN

11-10-2009, 4:43 PM

O.K., that's great. thanks very much indeed. So it seems pretty conclusive that Catherine Crawcour married Aaron Aarons. So it seems that it must, indeed, have been a third marriage after Hannah Levy. Multiple marriages seem to run in the family as both Moses Aaron and his son, Aaron Lewis Aaron married twice. Shame we can't find anything definite to show when & where this third marriage took place. It must have been after 1814 (stillborn death of Hannah Levy's child) and 1818 (birth of Samuel Aaron (Catherine's son), assuming she was actually married when she had him.

Now we are left with the following problems:-

1) Why is the 1841 Catherine shown as ARON & the 1851 Catherine as
AARON?

2) Why is Catherine shown as AARONS at the time of her death in 1858 and
her husband as AARONS at the time of his death in 1838?

3) Why is the 1841 Catherine shown as "foreign" and the 1851 Catherine as
having been born in Middlesex if her father was in England from 1772?
Perhaps Elizabethm, her sister-in-law was from The Hague and came over
here with Aaron Aarons and the census taker just assumed that Catherine
was foreign as well?

4) Why did my Aunty say she thought Moses Aaron "came from Russia"?
Was the story mixed up and actually referred to Moses's mother Catherine
or to her parents?

5) How do we reconcile the four different places of birth given on various
censuses for Moses Aaron?

Yes, I found Barnett Aaron with the Solomons family in 1851. Do you think they were anything to do wth Aaron Aarons' second wife?

Did any of the other names I mentioned mean anything at all? Especially Nichollas???

Do you know if there is any way we can find out when Samuel Crawcour and Aaron Aarons came to England?

Thanks again for all your excellent help, it's gradually coming together now.

Best regards,
Steve

SRFENN

11-10-2009, 6:29 PM

I have just ordered Aaron Aarons' death certificate so I'll tell you what it says as sson as I receive it.

Steve

phillip

11-10-2009, 6:29 PM

Steve
I will answer some of the questions- we know Samuel Crawcour 1748-1816 was in England circa late 1760s-early 1770s because of his advertisements. We also know about his birth and death date from the Western Synagogue Records - Hymason and that his father was Isaac from Kracow
As for the questions regarding Moses and also Catherine - it all depends on who is answering the census recorder's questions and the accuracy of their responses.
I have got large numbers of different birth locations for many of my close relatives- often the census recorder wrote down a general rather than specific area. Who was going to check the data for its accuracy? None of my 4-3 x great grandparents have got correct data on where they were born- fortunately I have other records to confirm where they came from and from 1837 the GRO Records or the Jewish Records give accurate details.

We know Aaron was in Russell Court from at least 1813 to 1830s so I would put money on Moses being born at that address. Also, the Synagogue marriage records say Aaron was from the Hague.

If the SOG has the family tree of Aaron we might discover more.

Phillip

Ps I have sent Pat your data and he might come up with more but at present I know he is very busy with his business

phillip

11-10-2009, 6:50 PM

Steve
If you read the various accounts of the break up of the Polish Empire in the mid 1700s you will see how Russia, Austria and Prussia 'carved up' the Polish provinces. The persecution of the Jews got progressively worse and by 1795 Poland- Lithuania disappeared. Communities such as Cracow were in serious debt prior to that date and by 1764 there was major poverty amongst the Jewish people.
In my view the issue of where Moses Aaron was born e.g. Russia is probably part of the family history which merged the Empire of Russia with the annexation of Poland and its Jewish population. I think your relatives mixed up where Moses came from with where his mother came from or even his father's relatives- many Jews settled in Holland because it was more tolerant but they had come from Poland.
See 'Yiddish Civilisation. The rise and fall of a forgotten nation' Paul Kriwaczek 2005

Also, Aron/Aaron/Aarons last name are all part of the forced move by Jews to adopt surnames- see 'My Ancestors were Jewish' Dr Anthony Joseph 2002
Phillip

Phillip

SRFENN

11-10-2009, 8:36 PM

Hello again,
Sorry to be a pain but could you just explain the Hebrew names on the Cemetery Scribes site. After Hannah Levy there is, in brackets "Hendela? b Joseph Yehuda HaLevi and Aaron Aarons has, in brackets, "Aharon b Jacob Hag".
Are thes names in brackets the names of the fathers?

Thanks once again,

Steve

SRFENN

12-10-2009, 8:17 AM

Sorry Philip but I am still trying to reconcile the Sribes site information. The dates don't quite tie up properly.

If Hannah Levy was Aaron Aarons' second wife and she died in 1819 how, if Catherine Crawcour was Aarons' third wife, could her first child Samuel have been born in 1818 unless the age given for him is incorrect or Aaron was having an affair with Catherine Crawcour whilst still married to Hannah Levy??? Samuel was 23 in the 1841 census so could not have been born after 1818.

The child Catherine that died in 1814 must have been from either Catherine Solomons (in which case she would have been 21 & not legally, a child) which is highly unlikely considering that Catherine Solomons died less than a year after her marriage and, presumably, in childbirth, or she was Hannah Levy's child.

Any thoughts?

Steve

phillip

13-10-2009, 6:23 AM

Hi Steve
The father's name is in brackets- key question- is there another Aaron Aarons clothier who we know nothing about?
I take the dob cautiously but I am intrigued about 3 marriage for one person!

We need to see if there are other Aaron- I know Pat looked carefully but we have no proof of a 3rd marriage to this Aaron!
Phillip

CemeteryScribes

13-10-2009, 6:51 AM

Hi,

I wanted to explain that the marriages are not 3 marriages (as far as we know), the entry shows as 3 families because we do not know whose daughter Catherine was (we could speculate but rather stick to facts) and therefore the program we use creates a 'family' for her with no monther.

Sorry if this has caused confusion. You can of course always contact us via the contact us menu option.

There was also a question about the name in brackets- that is their Hebrew name. Again if you would like further information please ask.

Regards
Gaby

SRFENN

13-10-2009, 7:44 AM

Thanks very much Gaby, that's made things a bit clearer.
Steve

SRFENN

13-10-2009, 7:54 AM

I know it's only speculation but what do you think of this:-

The third child of Aaron Aarons & Hannah Levy died 1/6/1814
Aaron Aarons' daughter Catherine died 6/1/1814
If the day & month have been reversed they could be one and the same person.

Also

As Samuel Aron (as shown in 1841 census) was born in 1818 and Hannah Levy died in 1819, he could have been her son and not Catherine Aron's (Cawcour) son. He would obviously still have lived with Catherine and her family after Aaron Aarons had died in 1838 which is why he is included in the 1841 census. The rest of the children from Joseph (1824) were obviously Aaron's & Catherine's.

If all this is correct then it all makes sense.

Steve

phillip

13-10-2009, 10:11 AM

Hi Steve
We are pretty sure Samuel was named after Samuel Crawcour who died in 1816- 21.11.1816 Western Synagogue Records Hyamson Collection. This is a precise date which suggests Hyamson had access to the original records- now destroyed WW2. The Ashkenazi naming tradition was usually to name a child after a dead relative.
As I said before the 1841 census records are not accurate. I have not looked in detail for Samuel or the other Aaron (s) but this is another project.
Gaby has been very helpful with clarifying the records.
Phillip

CemeteryScribes

13-10-2009, 10:33 AM

I know it's only speculation but what do you think of this:-

The third child of Aaron Aarons & Hannah Levy died 1/6/1814
Aaron Aarons' daughter Catherine died 6/1/1814
If the day & month have been reversed they could be one and the same person.

Steve

I see your point - I can confirm that the date of death for Catherine is correct according to her tombstone. The other child was stillborn according to the burial record. So very doubtful that they would be the same. I would imagine that Catherine was an older child given that she had a tombstone.

Regards
Gaby

SRFENN

15-10-2009, 9:39 AM

Samuel being the son of Catherine Aaron (Crawcour) just doesn't fit the facts. There is no reason why Hannah Levy or, indeed, Aaron Aarons could not have had a Samuel in the family after whom Samuel Aron was named. Aaron Aarons must have married Catherine Crawcour (if he actually did) between late 1819 & early1824 & it is difficult to see how Catherine Crawcour could have been Samuel Aron's mother in 1818.

I have hust received Aaron Aarons death certificate which reads as follows;-

Reg. Dist. Spitalfield, Co. of Middlesex registered 13th March 1838

Aaron Aarons died 11th March at 45, Red Lion Street, Christ Church, 49 years of age dealer in rags, of typhoid fever. Informant was B. Polak of 2, King's Head Court, Sandy's Row, Christ Church.

So a rag dealer born C. 1789; doesn't seem too helpful! Where do we go from here?

Steve

SRFENN

15-10-2009, 9:43 AM

Sorry, that should have been typhus, not typhoid, fever. Doesn't make any difference to his identity though!

Steve

phillip

15-10-2009, 5:47 PM

Steve
I stll think that Samuel is the son of Catherine and Aaron and do not take his dob to be accurate until we can trace him further. Now for another piece of new information to consider- I have been looking through the hundreds of documents I hold on the Crawcour lines and discovered a 3 page list of Crawcour ( source unknown) which has Catherine known as Kitty married to Aarons 1806 circa and her dob circa 1786.

Have we got the right Aaron from the start and is the data on Cemetery Scribes linking Catherine to Aaron Aarons married twice the right Aaron? If Catherine married in 1806 why did she not have any children early?

Did the Aaron married to Catherine die pre 1837 which is why there is no GRO record.

I take the term rag dealer and master tailor advisely- all depends on who is the informant
I think we need fresh data- visit to SOG might help providing of course there is info on the family.
Phillip

SRFENN

15-10-2009, 7:56 PM

I appreciate that census dates might not be entirely accurate but, if 1841 dates were rounded up by 5 years, and only for children under 15, as you say, then that would make Samuel's birth even earlier instead of later as we would like it to be if we want it after 1819. Also, presumably. people over 15 were not rounded up so Catherine's birth date in the 1841 census should still be around 1791 and it is hard to reconcile that to 1785/6. So, as you say, have we got the right Aarons or, indeed, the right Catherine. I am sure the 1851 Catherine is Catherine Crawcour but is she the same as the 1841 Catherine??? If they are two different Catherine's then, possibly, the 1841 Catherine did not marry Aaron Aarons but someone else, possibly the Samuel ARON I already found who died in Christ Church workhouse in 1841. This could be an alternative explanation for the name of Catherine's eldest son.

The Aaron married to Catherine Crawcour certainly died before the 1851 census and, if the 1851 & 1841 Catherines are the same person, then her before the 1841 census also. It is certainly possible that Aaron Aarons died before 1837 of course which would make things even more difficult for us.

So what have we got to suggest that the two Catherine's might be the same person?

1) They both have a son called Moses who was born in 1829

2) There are no other Catherines or Moses in either 1841 or 1851 censuses.

Against them being the same person:

1) different birth dates

2) different spelling of surname

3) different places of birth

4) different occupations

5) none of 1841 Catherine's children with her in 1851 except Moses. Her two daughters were younger than Moses; the youngest 18 in 1851.

What have we got to suggest that either, or both, Catherines is Catherine Crawcour:

1) The surname Aron/Aaron (but not Aarons)

2) the 1851 Catherine was a dentist

3) the 1851 Catherine was born C. 1786

So it is almost certain that the 1851 Catherine is Catherine Crawcour but, if she is not the same as the 1841 Catherine, where was Catherine Crawcour in 1841 and where was Catherine ARON in 1851???

Additionally, in favour of the 1841 Catherine being Catherine Crawcour we have the following:

1) She married Aaron Aarons and Moses Aaron's son was called Aaron Lewis Aaron

2) Moses and Aaron Lewis Aaron later changed their surname to Aarons with an "S".

3) Moses' place of birth is given on one census as "strand" which could tie up with a Crawcour residence and is not too far from Drury lane and would have come under Strand Reg, District from 1837 although this did not exist in 1829.

4) Several of the names of Catherine's sons are the same as Catherine Crawcour's father and brothers.

The 1806 marriage information is interesting and supports the fact that Catherine Crawcour married Aaron Aarons but doesn't help much at this stage. Good point about the long delay in having any children, unless all the earlier ones died. The 1806 date would mean, of course, that the Aaron Aarons in the Cemetery Scribes site is not the right Aaron Aarons.

So, as I said before, where do we go from here?

Let me know if you have any further thoughts on the subject.

Best regards,
Steve

MarkJ

15-10-2009, 8:21 PM

phillip

15-10-2009, 8:44 PM

Steve
I am going to visit SOG to see if there is an Aaron/Aarons/Aron family tree plus see if there is a PCC will for Aaron Aarons. Have also asked Pat if there is any more data in the Moses Crawcour will regarding his nephews/nieces.
Not much point in pursuing this topic until we get more info.
I looked on the Historical Directories online site which has 1808 and 1841 London Trade Directories- could only locate
1808 S Aaron Merchant 7 Fenchurch
Isaac Aaron and Son opticians Dukes Place
1841
Aaron and Alexander tobacconists 5 Russell Court

That's my lot for now and am taking a holiday
Phillip

SRFENN

16-10-2009, 6:59 AM

Don't blame you, have a nice time. Did you see Mark's reply about ages, thanks Mark. If that's right Samuel could have been born as late as 1823 which would certainly be after the death of Hannah Levy. Doesn't explain Catherine Crawcour's 1806 marriage though and the even longer delay in having children.

I can tell you for certain that Moses Aaron died in 4th quarter 1923 aged 93 so that puts his birth date at C.1830 or 1829. So. although he was about 12 in 1841, he was not rounded up or down.

Right, I'll let you have a well earned break and hope to hear from you when you have anything new.

Best regards,
Steve

JAP1

16-10-2009, 7:53 AM

Hi Steve,

On GENUKI at:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/Census.html
you will find a link to the official instructions to enumerators in the various censuses (this summary has been kindly compiled by Guy Etchells; the site states that the material is available for non-commercial use).

The 1841 Instructions include:
Write the age of every person under 15 years of age as it is stated to you. For persons aged 15 years and upwards, write the lowest of the term of 5 years within which the age is.

Thus-for Persons aged
15 years and under 20 write 15
20 years and under 25 write 20
25 years and under 30 write 25
30 years and under 35 write 30

35 years and under 40 write 35
40 years and under 45 write 40
45 years and under 50 write 45
50 years and under 55 write 50

55 years and under 60 write 55
60 years and under 65 write 60
65 years and under 70 write 65
70 years and under 75 write 70

And so on up to the greatest ages.

Fortunately for us many enumerators ignored their instructions and entered the actual age of persons over 15!

JAP

SRFENN

16-10-2009, 8:32 AM

Well thank you very much Jap, that makes it all much clearer. So it's people OVER 15 that were rounded DOWN and not people UNDER 15 rounded UP. So ages of 15, 20, 25 etc. are suspect, though not necessarilly wrong and exact ages not in multples of five are likely to be correct is that right? So Samuel Aaron aged 23 in the 1841 census must have definitely been born in 1818 give or take a year either side?

What a stupid idea though wasn't it? Also, It would have ben fortunate if all census enumerators had ignored it but, obiously not all did and, so, we can never be sure which ones are rounded down and which ones are not.

Thanks for your help.

Steve

MarkJ

16-10-2009, 8:37 AM

As you say Steve, not all the enumerators understood/listened to the advice - and thus we find all sorts of variations in the 1841 census. You see exact ages, also those where the enumerators rounded down and even those where they rounded up on odd occasions...

This is why - when possible - most people look at the 1851 or later for a more realisitc age.

Mark

SRFENN

16-10-2009, 10:53 AM

That's fine if they can be located in 1851 but a lot of people seem to be missing in 1851 (possibly because the transcripts are not complete?). Some might have died by 1851 but others appear in later censuses. All very annoying!

Steve

phillip

16-10-2009, 2:01 PM

Steve
Take a look at the Old Bailey trial of Henry Anderson 6 July 1857 - this maybe a 'red herring' but Henry Anderson age 23 used a variety of aliases including Barnett, Moses Aaron.
His mother Sarah Catherine Aaron appeared as a witness and said her son Barnett Aaron was a dentist by profession and had lived at 6 Grace's Alley Wellclose Square.

Maybe nothing to do with the Crawcour/Aaron lines but see what you think. I was interested in the dentist link to the surname Aaron.

So much for taking a break!
Phillip

SRFENN

18-10-2009, 6:53 PM

You don't really want a break Phillip do you? This is far too interesting to leave it. I've just had a short break myself in Paris to see the Will Day Historical Collection of cenematographic equipment. He was my grandfather on my mother's side. The collection used to be in the Science Museum in South Kensington but my uncles sold it to the French in 1959. The French were very keen to get hold of it as it comprised much of Lumiere's original equipment. I went with my son and nephew to take another look at it and a very enjoyable trip it was. The Director of the Museum gave us a personal tour. Sorry it's nothing to do with the Arrons or Crawcours so you're probably not at all interested. I'll get back to you when I've taken a look at the Old Bailey trial; seems promising.

Steve

phillip

19-10-2009, 7:22 PM

Steve
I have not traced all the children of Catherine and Aaron but on the 1861 Census there is:
Joseph Aaron head 38 married tailor b St Georges East Middx
Ann wife 35 b City??
Joseph son 17 tailor b Spitalfields Middx
Ann dau 15 cap maker b Spitalfields Middx
Samuel son 10 b Spitalfields Middx
14 Turk Street Bethnal Green

1871 Census
10 Turk Street Bethnal Green
Joseph Aaron head married 47 tailor b Bethnal Green
Ann wife 45 tailor's wife b Bethnal Green
Samuel son 20 Un tailor b Bethnal Green
Rebecca dau Un 18 Tailoress b Bethnal Green
Rachael dau Un 17 tailoress b Bethnal Green
Jane dau 7 b Bethnal Green
Henry son 5 b Bethnal Green
Esther dau 2 b Bethnal Green

These 2 census give a dob for Joseph of 1823

In 1881 census Joseph and Ann's son also Joseph
is at 245 Bethnal Green with his family. He is age 37 and a master tailor employing 3 girls
His family;
Jane wife 37
Alice 16
Joseph 14
Albert 3
Arthur 6 mths
Esther sister 11

Suggest that we check out the other children of Catherine and Aaron and compare dob across census returns.
Phillip

AdeleE

19-10-2009, 7:53 PM

Not sure if you have this, but I don't see it on this thread:

From the Anc. Births & Baptisms database:

Baptisms - St John, Bethnal Green - page 311 - 1855

#2705
Baptized 2 Dec 1855
Born 2 Oct 1822
Joseph, son of Aaron & Catherine Aaron
Abode: Red Lion Street, Spitalfields
Profession Tailor

#2706
Baptized 2 Dec 1855
Born 4 Jan 1854
Rachel, daughter of Joseph & Ann Aaron
Abode: 2 Bacon(?) Street, Bethnal Green
Profession: Tailor

Adele

SRFENN

19-10-2009, 8:43 PM

Thanks very much Adele, no I didn't ahve that informtion, very useful, thanks again.

Yes Phillip, already thought of that & have the 1861 & 1871 Turk Streeet information but didn't go any later than that but here is a bit more from the 1861 census for you;-

7/ 4/1861 CENSUS 2, Fashion Street (south side), SPITALFIELDS, MIDDLESEX

SAMUEL AARON (possible brother of MOSES)
Head aged 43 (b. C.1818) General dealer b. Southwark ???
Bow ???
HANNAH AARON wife “ 31 (b. C.1830) Whitechapel , Midd.x

7/ 4/1861 CENSUS 2, New Montague Street, Christchurch, SPITALFIELDS,
MIDDLESEX

ISAAC AARON (possible brother of MOSES)
Head 36 (b. C.1825) General dealer born Shoreditch
SARAH AARON wife 31 (b. C.1830) Cap maker Chelsworth, Suffolk
THOMAS AARON son 7 (b. C.1854) Bethnal Green

7/ 4/1861 CENSUS 120, High Street, WHITECHAPEL, MIDDLESEX

ELIZABETH ARON (possible auntie of Moses & sister-in-law of Catherine ?)
Head aged 72 (b. C.1789) Nurse born City *
Sarah Sagarus “ 62 (b. C.1799) Cook
Amely Vinas “ 15 (b. C.1846) Servant Middlesex

Useful piece of information from Adele - Joseph, son of Aaron & Catherine Aaron abode Red Lion Street, Spitalfields, same as on Aaron Aarons' death certificate so that means he IS the correct Aaron Aarons who died in 1838.

We seem to be really getting somewhere now don't we?

Thanks again Adele, a great contribution.

One more thought Phillip; are you certain about Samuel Crawcour being a dentist in Norwich in 1801. How about if it were Norwich Court, Holborn instead of Norwich, Norfolk? That's where Catherine Aron was in 1841.

No chance of a break now Phillip.

Steve

phillip

20-10-2009, 5:58 AM

Many thanks Steve and Adele for the data. Looks as if Joseph married out and had his children baptised- this was becoming a trait for numbers of Anglo Jews 2nd generation and included some of the Crawcour's.

Steve- the advertisements for Samuel are original ones and do show he was in Norwich Norfolk. There is also a journal article about he and his sons travels around East Anglia as itinerant dentists. I also hold copies of the original newspaper ads for his son Barnett who settled in Norwich in 1809 until his death. I also hold copies of Samuel's original apothecary book which in one case refers to a 'recipe' for a Norwich Doctor.

By the way, the note book of Samuel is very well written- there are no spelling or grammatical errors and includes both Latin and English. The writing is in copper plate.This is not the note book of an illiterate! I cannot vouch for the medicinal cures but they do not appear outlandish. A poorly educated person could not have kept such a book nor would they need to do so unless they took their work seriously.
Food for thought.
Phillip

SRFENN

20-10-2009, 7:20 AM

I don't doubt you Phillip, I just thought Norwich and Norwich Court might be something worth checking. Given that the 1841 census transcript "for Catherine Aron shows her having been born in "Curlam" Middlesex which other transcribers have stated is Curtian Road and Moses as having been born in "Holloway" Middlesex when, as I said previously, "Holywell Lane" would make far more sense.

Anyway, it looks pretty conclusive that the three Catherines (1841, 1851 & Crawcour/Aarons) are all the same person and everything is beginning to fit into place better. It just leaves the Cemetery Scribes information about Russell Court and The Hague which is a little conflicting with our other information.

As for the Old Bailey records it seems as if the the Aarons of Russell Court might well be the ones mentioned in the trials. As they appear so frequently it might suggest that they lived near or had close contact with the criminal fraternity and might even have been fences for stolen property???

We need more confirmation on Russell Court.

Steve

phillip

20-10-2009, 7:37 AM

Steve
The family history from one of our Crawcour relatives said that Catherine ( Kitty) had eloped and was born abroad. Her father Samuel was supposed to have left Poland ( one of his early ads states that he had been practising dentistry in Hanover) to search for her. However, all our records show otherwise. The 1777 advertisement for Samuel in the Shrewsbury Chronicle says that he was from Gloucester and given where his children were born - Kingston upon Hull etc - they show he was moving around a lot before settling in London in the 1790s. The Hebrew script from the Hyamson collection shows that Samuel's father was Isaac of Kracow ( my 6 x great grandfather) and translates as 'Shmuel ben Yitzchak' or Samuel son of Isaac with the word Crakowa deleted and replaced with Krakow. Samuel's death is given as 21.11.1748 age 68 Western Synagogue Records.
So as far as the records go Samuel arrived in England as a young man and had his family here.

The first name Sarah does run through the Crawcour lines suggesting that Sarah Catherine Aaron who appears in the 1857 trial as a witness for her son Barnett Aaron may well be one in the same person.

The Cemetery Scribes data is a puzzle and needs reconciling with what we are discovering.
Phillip

phillip

20-10-2009, 8:22 PM

Steve
1871 Census
Samuel Aaron 52 General dealer b Borough Surrey- there appears to be an additional comment in the section which lists infirmity etc but I can't make it out
Hannah wife 38 also a general dealer b Whitechapel
2 Fashion Street Whitechapel Mile End Town

Nb Doesn't appear as if they had any children

I searched for Isaac Aaron with family 1871 but could only see Isaac Aaron 42 General dealer and wife Eliza 26 b Beds Luton
7 James Street St George in the East

Will take another look at the census returns during the week.
Am abroad next week.

Phillip

SRFENN

21-10-2009, 7:14 AM

I neglected to give you the 1871 census information for Isaac. Here it is:-

2/ 4/1871 CENSUS – 7, James Street, BETHNAL GREEN, MIDDLESEX

ISAAC AARON Head aged 42 General dealer B. Shoreditch, Middlesex
ELIZA AARON wife “ 26 B. Luton, Bedfordshire

Also found 1881 census for Issac. Here it is:-

3/ 4/1881 CENSUS – 37, London Street, City of London, MIDDLESEX

Isaac Aaron Head aged 56 General hawker B. Spitalfields, Middlesex
Elizth. Aaron wife 32 B. Bedford
Thau Aaron son 10 scholar B. Stepney, Middlesex
William Aaron son 8 “ B. Stepney, Middlesex
Emily Aaron dr. 6 “ B. Limehouse, Middlesex
George Aaron son 2 B. Limehouse, Middlesex

Well there's a bit more for you

Steve

SRFENN

21-10-2009, 7:44 AM

Just got a bit more:-

3/ 4/1881 CENSUS – 7, Florenstone Streee (private house), City of London,
MIDDLESEX

Samuel Aarons Head aged 60 Furrier B.”London”, Middlesex
Hannah Aarons wife 60 B. “ “
George Aarons son 25 Cigar maker B. “ “
Ester Aarons dr. 20 Fur sewer B. “ “
Deborah Issacs dr. 30 No occupation B. “ “
Sarah Issacs dr. 3 B. United States

Are these a completely different Samuel and Hannah? If so, I couldn't find the other ones.

Steve

SRFENN

21-10-2009, 7:55 AM

SRFENN

21-10-2009, 10:29 PM

How about this?

1881 Census - Metropolitan District Asylum Leavedon, Watford, Hertforodshire

Barnett Aarons patient aged 54 unmarried hawker - disability
born "London", Middlesex

If this is the correct Barnett, I haven't found him in 1861 or 1871, nor after 1881.

Steve

phillip

22-10-2009, 9:28 AM

Hi Steve
We know that a Barnett Aaron got 2 years in 1857 and was using assumed names- I did see a Barnett Aaron vagrant in Bedford prison but can't relocate the site address!

Just wondering if like the 2 Crawcour's Aaron and Samuel who were in gaol and transported Barnett dropped his surname and took on another identity.

My Hart and Crawcour relatives by the 1860s were well established and in business. Many had married into well known Anglo Jewish families such as Adler, Angel etc. I doubt if they would want any dealings with ex prisoners and the Crawcour ex gaol prisoners is evidence of this e.g. both settled in Australia under assumed names!

Phillip

AdeleE

22-10-2009, 9:43 AM

I looked at Genes Reunited census and found Isaac Aaron in 1891 born 1816 in Bethnal Green living in Farningham, Dartford. My subscription has expired and I didn't really want to purchase more credits just for one item so, if you have a subscription, perhaps you would be good enough to look into it further. G.R., for some reason, doesn't have 1881 census so can't check Samuel any further.

Steve

1891 census

Isaac Aaron / patient / single / 75 / ret / general dealer, b. Bethnal Green, London / lunatic

City of London Lunatic Asylum
Civil parish: Stone
Ecclesiastical parish: Stone St Mary
Town: Stone
County: Kent
Registration district: Dartford
RG12; Piece: 643; Folio 63; Page 4

Adele

SRFENN

22-10-2009, 9:55 AM

Thanks again Adele. Leavesden was also a pauper mental institution so it seems that both Barnett and Isaac had mental problems. Maybe they spent too long trying to trace their ancestors???

Steve

phillip

22-10-2009, 11:05 AM

Steve
Pat has sent me a copy of the original Moses Crawcour will 1858- he ws very wealthy and owned various properties. The very first bequest is to " my sister Kitty otherwise Catherine AARONS...... an annual annuity of twenty pounds ---- paid on the day of my death"

As for Isaac - it looks as if the note made in one of the census was to confirm he was insane.

As for insanity and family historyresearch being one in the same I can only comment on myself!
Phillip

SRFENN

22-10-2009, 12:03 PM

I don't think the Isaac that Adele sent us can be the right one as he far too old and I don't think the Samuel & Hannah 1881 I sent previously can be right as both ages, particularly Hannah's are incorrect and they have children of 20 & 25. Strange that they are both Samuel & Hannah though. Strange also that Issac in Dartford was in a lunatic asylum as well as Barnett on our side.

Steve

phillip

23-10-2009, 10:25 AM

Steve
Will be out of contact until 2 Nov but my cousin Pat is researching the links between Joseph Levy and his son Godfrey Levy - an embroiderer ( changed his last name to Godfrey so was called Godfrey Godfrey) and the various families including the Crawcour/Aarons/Harris/Coppel/Jacobs/Angel etc we suspect that first cousins were marrying each other or families were very closely related.

If you spot any links we would be very interested.

Joseph Levy was in Tooley Street he may have re- married or his son did the same.

Phillip

SRFENN

23-10-2009, 3:12 PM

Will do. Took a walk down Drury lane today. Russell Court must have gone a long time ago but there is still a Russell Street off of which runs Catherine Street. I don't imagine she was that famous to have had a street named after her even if she had been one of the first female dentists in G.B.

Look forward to receiving further information from Pat or yourself when you returm. Have a good trip wherever you're going.

Steve

phillip

23-10-2009, 7:39 PM

Steve
In summary, there is data on Cemetery Scribes which relates to Sarah Godfrey wife of Godfrey Levy ( her tombstone and inscription plus those of their 2 children are on the site). It is Pat and my belief that Sarah is Sarah Crawcour. It looks as if Godfrey married twice. The tombstone inscription for Sarah reads wife of Godfrey Levy (Goetshlik Ha Levi). Sarah was b 1784 - 1839. Her 2 children who died: Maria ( Miriam); Emanuel Levy. Godfrey Levy's father was Joseph Eliyakum Ha Levi who was a silversmith 49 Tooley St 1799; 1814 clothes salesman and 1827/28 a watchmaker 171 Tooley Street.
We believe that Godfrey and Sarah's daughter was Rebecca who married Moses Angel. Rebecca's marriage cert shows her father as G Godfrey and David Crawcour my 4x great grandfather was a witness. In Moses Crawcour's will he names Rebecca as his niece and Moses Angel as one of his executors.

There are numbers of synagogue records for the various families and Joseph's children were:
Lawrence Levy m Priscilla Mose; Julia Levy m Moshe ben Shmuel Ha Levi and then Shlomeh ben Uri Shirga Feiss Uri Leib
Keila Levy m Meshulam Zissel ben Nathan Ha Cohen; Barnet Levy m Betty Ellis; Henry Moses m Rosetta Moses.

These families connect to Asher Henry Jacobs; Lewis Harris; Moses; Bamberg; Solomon; Joseph; Cowvan and others.

I suspect we will discover closer links between the respective lines.
Phillip

SRFENN

30-10-2009, 7:44 AM

I have seen on the Family Search site Aaron Aarons married Catherine Solomons 5/11/1792 and his age is given as about 1767 (presumably the informant must have had some evidence for this date). The Aaron Aarons who married Catherine Crawcour was born in 1789 (22 years later) (confirmed from the death certificate which I obtained) therefore there were two Aaron aarons and, I suggest, they were father and son. The only fact actually linking the Aarons and the Crawcours is that Rebecca Crawcour (nee Levy) was living at Russell Court in 1817, the year after her husband had died, so it would seem that she had gone to live with Aaron & Hannah (nee Levy), Hannah, presumably, being her sister. It does not mean that Aaron Aarons junior or Catherine (Crawcour) were living at Russell Court and there is no evidence to suggest that they were. They could have been elsewhere.

Unless Aaron Aarons senior died before 1837 there are three candidates for his death after that date.

1) Sep 1842 East London (Dist 2151)
2) Dec 1854 London (Dist lc99)
3) Dec 1859 Whitechapel (Dist lc241)

I'm afraid I cannot afford to chance £21 on speculation to get certificates which might prove nothing anyway.

Returning to the death of Catherine Aaron (no "s") at Russell Court 6/1/1814 the Cemetery Scribes site does not attribute her to Hannah Levy nor, indeed, to Catherine Solomons so, if she had been a different person from the stillborn child of Hannah (1/6/1814) it is likely that she was from a completely different mother. I would offer the following hypothesis:-

Catherine Aaron (Crawcour) was staying with her husband's parents at Russell Court whilst she was in confinement. She lost the child which was named Catherine after her. This would explain the death being registered as having occurred at Russell Court, the name Catherine, two deaths in 1814 and the fact that she was not listed in Cemetery Scribes as being either Hannah Levy's or Catherine Solomons' child. It would also reduce the time period between the marriage of Aaron Aarons and Catherine Crawcour (1806) to the birth of their first child (Samuel 1818) from 12 years to 8 years. There might also have been earlier children of that marriage which did not survive.
Proving all this could present difficulties but it is the only scenario that explains everything neatly.

What do you think?

Steve

SRFENN

30-10-2009, 7:55 AM

Re - death of Aaron Aarons after 1837 there is one candidate in the 1841 census:-

Year of birth: 1774 Place of birth: unknown Location in 1841: City of London

The rounding down process could bring the birth date down to 1770 or even 1769 and, as the "about 1767" of the Family search posting is not definite, we could get both dates to coincide at 1769.

Could anyone with a current G.R. subscription check him out please? Also anyone else living at his address. Thanks.

Steve

phillip

01-11-2009, 8:22 AM

Hi Steve
I am back from my holiday. There is no problem about my buying GRO certs- I already hold all the GRO certs on the named Crawcour lines and others from 1837 to early 1900s- that's how I was able to track so many- plus wills etc.As for the GR records I will do the checking.
Will also plan a SOG visit- are you interested in meeting up?
Phillip

Ps I will ask Pat for his data base on the descendants of Catherine-

phillip

01-11-2009, 9:15 AM

Steve
These are the GR 1841 census records for Aaron Aarons:
Aaron Aarons 67 ( 1774 circa)
Occupation Independent Knowles Court City of London
Foreign birth
Benjamin Aarons 37 furrier not born in county
Mary 30 not born in county
Abraham 10 not born in county
David 8
George 7
John 5
? 3 male
Grace 10 mths
1 servant

Petticoat Lane
Solomon Aarons 25 butcher born in county
Rosa Aarons 25 born in county
Aaron Aarons 1 born in county

Tenter Street Whitechapel
Michael Aarons 65 general dealetr born in county
Julia 25 born in county
Joseph 15 born in county
Aron 20 born in county

No occupations listed for above

Montague Street 1 Whitechapel
Aaron Aarons 46 ( 1795) General dealer Foreign birth
Rachel 34 not born in county
Ph..rcs? male 11 not born in county

1851 census
Aaron Aarons 25 lodger quill merchant
31 Sandys Row Christ Church Whitechapel
in house of:
Elizabeth Joel widow 49 Shopkeeper b Spitalfields
Coleman Joel son un 19 b Spitalfields
Sarah Joel dau 18 b Spitalfields
Mary Joel dau 16 b Spitalfields
Joel Joel son 14 b Spitalfields

I will keep looking
Phillip

SRFENN

01-11-2009, 9:47 AM

Hello again, hope you had a nive break. Now back to business eh?

The 1841 census names don't seem to help us so I don't supose it's worth getting death certificates for the three I mentioned previously.

What do you think about the two Aaron Aarons being father and son theory?

Yes, I'd like to meet up so that we can discuss things in greater depth. There are still a lot of questions unresolved. When were you planning on going? Any day is fine with me as I am redundant/retired (which is why I can't afford too much on certificates and subscriptions.

Steve

SRFENN

01-11-2009, 12:04 PM

Actually, there is no reason why the Aaron Aarons in the 1841 census, whose details you have posted above, could not still be the one we are looking for. He is obviously the father of the Benjamin listed who could have been Aaron Aarons junior's (the one who married Catherine Crawcour) younger brother. The dates still fit and the foreign birth is right. Perhaps it might be worth getting the death certificates for Aaron Aarons Sep Qtr 1842 East London and, possibly, Dec. Qtr. 1854 City of London (although I cannot find him in the 1851 census).

Steve

phillip

01-11-2009, 12:52 PM

Steve
The Cemetery Scribes record shows the tombstone of Aaron Aarons 1762-1849 - Gentleman of Knowles Court. His son is Benjamin. If you check the JGSGB data base of London traders and the National Archives I think you will see that this Aaron was a furrier.
The 1841 census shows Catherine and her children alone so I do not think that the Aaron age 87 and still alive until 1849 is her husband.
Phillip

Ps Bear with me while I get the 1842 GRO death cert

SRFENN

01-11-2009, 1:43 PM

I decided to blow another fiver on some G.R. units. Look at where David was born. The boundary between St. Clement Danes and St. Giles-in-the-Fields is right along the centre of Drury lane. Rusell Court is in St. Giles parish and not St. Martins parish.

1851 CENSUS

Name Year of Place of birth Location in 1851
birth

Aarons Benjamin 1803 St Catherines St. James Dukes Place London City
Aarons Abraham 1831 St Clements Dane St. James Dukes Place London City
Aarons David 1833 St Mary Magdalen St. James Dukes Place London City
Aarons George 1835 St Mary Magdalen St. James Dukes Place London City
Aarons John 1837 St Mary Magdalen St. James Dukes Place London City
Male 1838 St Mary Magdalen St. James Dukes Place London City
Aarons Grace 1841 St Mary Magdalen St. James Dukes Place London

N.B. City of London parishes:-
St. Katherine Coleman Street or St. Katherine Cree or, possibly, St. Katherine by the Tower (outside City of London)
St. Mary Magdelene Milk Street or St. Mary Magdelene Old Fish Street Hill

Can’t find any of them in 1861 so, either they all died or, they emigrated ???

Let me know your thoughts on this.

Steve

SRFENN

01-11-2009, 1:53 PM

Can't see how AAron Aarons of Knowles Court can be 67 in the 1841 census and 87 eight years later according to the Cemetery Scribes. Anyway, I was not suggesting that this Aaron Aarons was married to Catherine Crawcour but that the Aaron Aarons born in 1789 who WAS married to Catherine Crawcour could have been the other Aaron Aarons's (the one married to Catherine Solomons & Hannah Levy) son.

Steve

SRFENN

02-11-2009, 8:59 AM

Sorry, made an error, Russell Court IS in St. Martins-in-the-Fields parish and NOT St. Giles-in-the-Fields. My eyes must be going as I can't read small print on maps as well as I once could.

The Aaron Aarons in Cemetery Scribes who died 1849 in St. Pancras is the same one as I found in Free BMD. Not sure whether this is St. Pancras parish (where the station is) or St. Pancras in the City of London but, as he lived in the City, it is probably the latter parish.

So is the mistake in birth dates attributable to the 1841 census enumerator, the transcriber or to Cemetery Scribes??? I would still not rule this Aaron Aarons out of the picture yet!!!

Steve

SRFENN

02-11-2009, 4:16 PM

Well it is definitely St. Pancras (as in station) and not St. Pancras Soper Lane because that was destroyed in the Great Fire of London. It would be interesting to see the death certificate.

Steve

CemeteryScribes

02-11-2009, 7:38 PM

Hi

Re:
>So is the mistake in birth dates attributable to the 1841 census enumerator, the transcriber or to Cemetery Scribes??? I would still not rule this Aaron Aarons out of the picture yet!!!<

I think its worth pointing out that the year of birth on our site (cemeteryscribes.com) is taken from the age at death as stated in the Hebrew inscription, as noted on the site.

If one wants to add to the potential list of 'mistakes' then its possible that the stone mason made an error or the person instructing the stone mason did. Unfortunately the English inscription is eroded but I can just make out aged 8[7?] years.

I'm not convinced that people back them gave their year or date of birth as much importance as we do now. There are of course numerous examples of women ageing only a couple of years between census, vanity perhaps. Or like my own great grandmother, they never knew the year of their birth let alone the date.

phillip

02-11-2009, 8:18 PM

Hi Gaby/Steve
I have re-checked the 1841 census for Aaron Aarons and it gives his age as 67.
As Gaby rightly says the ages given are rarely accurate and it's a case of cross referencing with any other data e.g. death/marriage/family trees etc. I will get his GRO death cert. Depends also on who is answering the census recorder questions and also the accuracy of the recorder.
Phillip

phillip

02-11-2009, 8:52 PM

Gaby/Steve
If you look on Google Books under " Aaron Aarons" you will see the entry in the Gentleman's Magazine 1849-death and other notices- this reads : Aaron Aarons at his son in laws in Euston Square age 87.
This would confirm at least the tombstone inscription which Gaby has on Cemetery Scribes for this Aaron.
Phillip

SRFENN

02-11-2009, 10:03 PM

O.K. that seems prettu conclusive then. Shame because there are no other alternatives. We must conclude, therefore, that the Aaron Arons we are looking for died before 1837 and how we find him I haven't a clue.

Steve

phillip

03-11-2009, 8:24 AM

Steve
I have not given up on finding Aaron- as I said before we have not looked at the SOG records nor the Hambro records and there maybe JGSGB family trees.
I have no time at present to visit London within the next 2 weeks but would plan after that.
Phillip

Ps we have not checked the variables to Aaron/Aron etc surname

SRFENN

03-11-2009, 8:47 AM

Yes I checked all spellings. Let me know when you can make the visit. Whereabouts are you coming from. I am in East Barnet, Herts. so getting up to town is easy for me.

Steve

phillip

03-11-2009, 9:28 PM

Steve
I have looked at the JCR data base for London Traders and this is what is noted about various Aaron Aarons:

J Aarons Russell Court Drury Lane salesman 1822
Aaron and Alexander tobacconists 5 Russell Court 1841
Aaron Aarons and Son 5 Russell Court 1832
Aaron Aarons 5 Russell Court 1827-28 clothes salesman
Aaron Aarons 47 Holywell St furrier 1822-28
Aaron Aarons 47 Holywell St fur manufacturer 1818
A Aarons Spark's Court 1807
Aaron Aarons 32 Holywell St 1814 furrier
Aaron Aarons 39 Clerkenwell Green 1836 clothes salesman
Aaron Aarons 29 Russell Court slop seller 1814
Nb Aaron Aaron clothes salesman 5 Russell Court 1836
( the 's' has been dropped from name)

Slop seller is a naval agent selling various stores clothing to the navy.
Benjamin and Samuel Aarons took over the furrier business when their father died see their names listed in the records.

What are your comments on the above?
Phillip

SRFENN

03-11-2009, 11:20 PM

Well all very interesting. Are all the Aaron Aarons's the same person? It would not be impossible for him to have had a finger in more than one pie. Moses Aaron was a furniture dealer but also let properties and was a book-maker.

Holywell Street was the road to the north of St. Mary Le Strand church now just part of the Strand; it is not very far from Rusell Court.

The occupation of furrier is a coincidence having just looked into the Aaron Aarons of Knowles Court. You state that Benjamin and Samuel took over the furrier business when their father died. So are you saying that this is the Benjamin, son of Aaron Aarons furrier of Knowles Court? In which case who was Samuel? No Samuel is mentioned as being one of his sons.

I should imagine that the Clerkenwell Green Aaron Aarons is a different person entirely. It would be interesting to know who the J. Aarons was (1822) and what the son's name was (1832).

Can't find Spark's Court anywhere.

The trouble is with all this information that it provokes more questions than it solves.

Steve

phillip

04-11-2009, 6:48 AM

Have you looked at the JCR data Steve- I am making no comments other than passing on data but I have found this kind of data very useful for cross checking. I have not had the time to cross check all the Aaron/Aarons names with addresses on the data base but this might be something you would wish to do. We are running out of options as to who the Aaron Aarons m to Catherine ( might be Sarah Catherine) Crawcour is.
Phillip

SRFENN

04-11-2009, 3:53 PM

I have checked all addresses and dates and can't get very far. I also found another one: 1836 Aaron Aaron (no 'S') furrier of 13, Bailey's Place, Tower Hill.

Could there really have been three different people called Aaron Aaron who were all furriers around the same time and not too far from one another or were they all the same person, or father and son, running different businesses from different addresses. Perhaps they had several shops or workshops.

All Catherine's sons, and not only Moses, had different places of birth at different census dates which makes things really difficult. Did they all have no idea where they were actually born???

I've tried to find common aspects between everyone but it is not easy but I feel that some of the information must be right and some might have a hint of truth but might need re-interpreting. For example the 1841 census shows Moses Aaron as having been born in "Holloway" which I interpreted as Holywell Hamlet in Shoreditch near Curtain Road where Catherine was born. It could, however, be Holywell Street, Strand which would mean that the 1861 census which shows him having been born in "Strand" could actually be correct. This is the way I'm trying to work and I think it's the only way forward.

We need to look at this problem together and discuss it and see what definitely fits and what does not. If you have any other ideas please let me know.

Steve

phillip

04-11-2009, 7:56 PM

Steve
I have compared the Aarons/Aaron Jewish Traders/Businesses 1769-1839 and London Jews pre 1850 on the JCR -UK data base and the only 2 who were clothes salesman/slop seller was Aaron Aarons or Aaron Aaron of Russell Court or Clerkenwell Green.
This is what the data shows:
A Aarons Spark's Court 1807 ???
Aaron Aarons 29 Russell Court slop seller 1814
Aaron Aarons 5 Russell Court 1827-28 clothes salesman
NB J Aarons salesman Russell Court 1822***son/brother/father etc?????
Aaron Aarons & Son 5 Russell Court clothes salesman 1832 **** clue to an elder son in partnership??
Aaron Aarons 39 Clerkenwell Grn 1836 clothes salesman
Nb Lewis Aarons Russell Court 1841 Polltax record **** ???

It looks as if the Aaron Aarons of Russell Court was dead after 1836 or ceased trading.If that is the case and he is 'our' Aaron then that would explain why there is no GRO record and would link with Catherine being a widow by 1841.

The 'furrier' Aaron Aarons looks like the Aaron who died age 87 of Knowles Court not least because his son Benjamin was at the same address.

I do not believe there are any other possible Aarons/Aaron unless of course he did not advertise his trade and was not listed.

Your thoughts?
Phillip

Aaron Aarons 39 Clerkenwell 1836 clothes salesman

Aaron Aaron 5 Russell Court 1836 clothes salesman **** is this a clue for the dropping of the letter 's' from the surname?

SRFENN

05-11-2009, 8:46 AM

We're both doing exactly the same things. I have also compared trades and, other than Catherine becoming a dentist, her husband was clothes salesman and she was in a clothes shop in 1841. Her son Joseph was a tailor and so were his son and two of his daughters. Samuel and Isaac were general dealers and Moses and his son Aaron Lewis Aaron were in the furniture business. The Aaron Aaron, husband of Catherine Solomons and Hannah Levy was also a tailor/master tailor and there seems no connection whatsoever with the fur trade with either of our Aaron Aarons and I think we are forced to conclude that the Aaron Aarons furrier was a totally different and unconnected person.

The other thing to consider is that the furrier Aarons seem to be more affluent than the clothes seller Aarons and live in better areas; City of London, Euston Square and he is termed "gentleman" and gets a mention in the Gentleen's magazine. Hardly consistent with clothes salesman and slop seller. They must be totally unconnected.

I still think that Aaron Aarons born C. 1767 and Aaron aarons born C. 1789 were father and son.

We have Aaron Aarons at 5, Russell Court between 1813 and 1836 and, in 1832, Aaron Aaron & son at the same address so his son must have gone into the same business to start with. As we have no further record of of Aaron Aaron after 1836 except Aaron and Alexander tobacconists in 1841 at the same address and, as we can find no death record for Aaron Aaron after 1837, it seems pretty conclusive that he died in 1836 or 1837 and his son went into partnership with Alexander as a tobacconist.

The first record of Aaron aarons being a clothes salesman in 1827 so was he trading as a slop seller from 29, Russell Court from 1814 until 1827? Was the J. Aarons salesman of Russell Court the son mentioned in 1832 and the tobacconist of 1841? So was J. Aarons the brother of Aaron Aarons junior (future husband of Catherine Crawcour)?

Is there any way we can find the death of Aaron Aarons senioe in 1836/7???

By the way, I did reply to your message re visit to S.O.G. but don't know whether you received it or not? I said any day is fine just let me know what day you can make it.

Steve

The Aaron Aarons of Clerkenwell Green might be the same person

phillip

05-11-2009, 10:29 AM

Steve
Totally agree with your comments regarding the links and data. We may have a problem confirming the death of Aaron pre 1837 but I note on the JGSGB family tree lists and also JCR SIGS that there are researchers who have either left Aarons family trees at JSGB or may have data on our lines. Also, the Mormon records do contain data which has yet to be transcribed as you already know some of which is in Hebrew.

What are your thoughts on the Cemetry Scribes data for Aaron of Russell Court?

SOG may also have data but it is mainly on fairly well off Anglo Jews- the Crawcours/Hart/Jacobs were all on the Hymason/Colyer Ferguson records which made it easier for me. Have you looked on the Familysearch site- Knowles collection? Just remembered it.

Still haven't given up. It looks as if Catherine may have been struggling with finances hence the bequest from her brother Moses.
Phillip

Ps Will come back to you regarding SOG Visit

SRFENN

05-11-2009, 12:09 PM

I can't see anything new on family search or the knowles collection.

I have already given my ideas on Cemetery Scribes info. re- Russell Court; I believe the Cemetery Scribes site to be accurate, although somewhat confusing and a little more explanation of the information given might be useful. I believe that the Aaron Aarons mentioned there was the one born C. 1767 and who married Catherine Solomons and Hannah Levy and was a clothes salesman. I believe he had a son born C. 1789 also called Aaron Aarons who married Catherine Crawcour also a clothes salesman and who lived somewhere other than Russell Court during the period we are looking at and is not, therefore, mentioned by Cemetery Scribes. This Aaron Aarons junior would have been born some three years before the marriage of Aaron Aarons senior to Catherine Solomons and must, therefore, have been either (a) illegitimate from a different mother, (b) illegitimate from Catherine Solomons or (c) the legitimate child of a previous unknown first wife before the other two.

Again, I would point out that the only connections we really have to link the two Aaron Aarons to Ruussell Court are as follows:-

1) Rebecca Crawcour (nee Levy) was living there in 1817., the year after Samuel Crawcour's death, and must, therefore, be Hannah Aarons' (nee Levy) sister.

2) Both Aaron Aarons have the same first and second names.

3) the time period between the birth of each is 22 years which would be just right.

4) Both Aaron Aarons were clothes salesmen.

5) A Catherine Aaron (no 's') died there in 1814 and could have been the daughter of Aaron Aarons junior and Catherine Crawcour and named after her
rather than the daughter of Catherine Solomons to whom she is not attributed by Cemetery Scribes and nor is she attributed to Hannah Levy. It was very common for mothers to have their children in the home of a relative who could provide assistance during birth.

So, really, the only positive connection is the fact that Rebecca Crawcour was there in 1817 and nothing else.

That's about all my thoughts on the subject for the time being.

Steve

phillip

05-11-2009, 12:15 PM

Steve
Have looked at London Gazette again and note:
Joseph Aaron 1806 formerly of Portsmouth and late of Gosport slop seller and navy agent- in Fleet Prison as debtor
1823 Joseph Aaron late of 11 Clements Inn Strand navy agent- debtor
1829 Joseph Aaron formerly Sheerness Kent slop seller and navy agent afterwards Goodmans Fields navy agent afterwards Stretford Essex Master of Academy and late of Title Barn St Liverpool shopman to slop seller

Nb Could be one person

Lewis Aarons and Lewis Alexander 263 Strand tobacconists - dissolved partnership 1845

Isaac Aarons ( known as Aaron Aarons) 1812 and Son Sparks Court Dukes Place Spectacle Maker, dealer and chapman

Aaron Aarons 1789 Duke St Butcher

Just trying to see if there are any early connections to our lines.
Phillip

SRFENN

05-11-2009, 4:52 PM

Well now we know that the tobacconist was Lewis Aarons & not J. Aarons so, presumably, Aaron Aaron senioe must have had more than one son. I'm sure I have seen a tobacconist called Lewis and Lewis somewhere or other.

So could the Joseph Aarons slop seller of Clement's Inn, Strand in 1823 be the J.Aarons salesman of Russell Court in 1822 ???

The mention of Portsmouth was interesting. Moses Aaron married (2nd marriage) Hannah Newman in 1893 and I did a little checking on the Newmans and they came from Portsea, the part of Portsmouth where the naval base is. There are dozens and dozens of Newmans in the censuses for Portsea, many in the the same streets, and I think it must have been a local joke at the Registrar's office when a woman came in to register her baby and didn't know the father's name the Registrar must have said "it's a new man every time" and that's how it was entered.

I wonder whether the Aarons might have had some long standing connection with the Newmans in Portsea/Portsmouth? If Joseph Aarons in the 1820s was a relative this could be the connection, if there is one??? Probably a long shot but, like you, I am attempting to find any earlier possible links.

Keep looking Phillip, you never know what you might find and what further possibilities it might open up.

Steve

phillip

06-11-2009, 11:57 AM

There are 3 entries for Aaron ( first name) in the Myer Solomon's Circumsion Register all at Russell Court:
135 Judah Ary b Aaron Russel Court 4 August 1804
343 Jacob b Aaron Russell Court 16 Oct 1810
448 Baruch b Aaron Russell Court 15 Jan 1826

Phillip

SRFENN

06-11-2009, 2:05 PM

That's interesting, it puts them there earlier than previously thought. Are the names Judah Ary, Jacob and Baruch first names (i.e. in western terms) or what?

Steve

phillip

06-11-2009, 3:53 PM

Steve
They are the Hebrew first names - Baruch means 'blessed' so you can see how they adopted tribal/religious/patriachal and Anglicised names. By the way there are the British Library Newsapers online resources which can be accessed at a cost of just under £10 for 7 days. I typed in Aaron Aaron and got some 'hits' which were early in the 1800s. Did not pay to access. The same applies to the JC which began 1841- so there maybe data in these resources.
Still looking!
Phillip

SRFENN

06-11-2009, 4:35 PM

So they'd be Judah Ary Aaron, Jacob Aaron (presumably one of whom was the J.Aarons salesman in 1822) and Baruch Aaron? Presumably also the dates of the circumcisions were 8 days after the birth dates???

Steve

SRFENN

06-11-2009, 4:54 PM

Try Catherine Aaron on the British Library newspapers, you'll find even better results. Might be worth doing a 24 hour pass to read the full articles.

Steve

SRFENN

06-11-2009, 5:18 PM

Not so good actually; I saw 1821 but that was the issue number of the paper and not the date which was 1877 and, therefore, not our Catherine. Sorry.

Steve

SRFENN

06-11-2009, 6:29 PM

You'll be interested in Samuel Crawcour, dentist, stealing 2 lbs of tea in 1832
Steve

SRFENN

06-11-2009, 7:29 PM

And in David Crawcour, surgeon, charged with harbouring his son AARON wanted for a felony in 1853

Steve

phillip

07-11-2009, 8:42 AM

Hi Steve
Many thanks for looking out for the Crawcour data in newspapers- Pat and I already have some of it from various sources. I have a very large storage box containing copies of these resources. There are early documents at Collindale which include ads- these are the ones I would like to research some day.
Phillip

phillip

07-11-2009, 10:00 AM

Steve
We could have saved ourselves some time and effort if we had looked on the BJ Archives site ( search) under Aarons/Aaron. There are researchers who have listed their interests and in the case of Aaron Aarons c1767-1849 have published his will which would have ruled him out from the start. There are various possible links to our lines but I have not looked in detail!
Anyhow, take a look- I am busy this weekend but it would pay us to post on BJ
Phillip

SRFENN

07-11-2009, 11:15 AM

Well we ruled him out by logical deduction which was far more satisfying.

Steve

SRFENN

09-11-2009, 6:08 PM

1841 census - household transcription
Here's the answer to Aaron & Alexander tobacconists at Russell Court in 1841:-

Person: AARONS, Louis
Address: Russell Court, St Martin In The Fields, Westminster
Name Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born
________________________________________
AARONS, Louis M 35 1806 Middlesex
AARONS, Ann F 25 1816 Middlesex
AARONS, Hannah F 4 1837 Middlesex
AARONS, Morris M 0 (10 months) 1841 Middlesex
ALEXANDER, Elizth F 55 1786 Middlesex
ASHER, Julia F 25 1816 Middlesex
CUTMORE, Emelia F 15 1826 Middlesex

Louis (Lewis) must be the son of Aaron Aarons senior and possible brother of Aaron Aarons junior. Presumably Elizabeth Alexander was the widow of Lewis the tobacconist.

Steve

SRFENN

09-11-2009, 6:20 PM

Do you think that Elizabeth Alexander might be Elizabeth Aron from the 1841 census born C.1786 and probable sister-in-law of Catherine?

Steve

SRFENN

09-11-2009, 7:01 PM

Well it wasn't Elizabeth Aron. According to Family Search it was Elizabeth Stevenson or Collis (don't know why the two possible maiden names).So nothing to do with us except the partnership with Louis Aarons.

Steve

phillip

10-11-2009, 9:03 AM

Steve
There is the Reuben Alexander line who married into the Barnett Crawcour line. Anne Crawcour married Reuben Alexander (son of Joshua and Rachel). Reuben was born Chatham Kent. On Cemetery Scribes there are records of the Alexander lines.On the death of Barnett in Norwich his wife and children moved to Chatham.

I have data on Joseph Aaron b abt 1844 who married Jane Sims in 1864. Joseph died in 1893 and was at 245 Bethnal Green Road and was a tailor.
Their children:
Alice 1865
Joseph 1866
Charles 1870-72
Charles 1872-1877
Samuel 1873-74
Jane 1875-78
Albert 1878
Arthur 1880-1882
Minnie 1882
Eveline 1884

Pat also sent me data on other Aaron descendants
Phillip

Ps Lewis Aaron appears in the Old Bailey trials as a witness and says he has a shop in Russell Court

SRFENN

10-11-2009, 11:47 AM

I'd still like to know more about the names yous ent previously from the circumcision records. Am I correct in thinking that the operation took place traditionally eight days after birth? Can you confirm that the names Judah, Jacob and Baruch were first names followed by Aarons (at least as far as western records are concerned), in which case the first two 1804 & 1810 must be Aaron Aarons children from Hannah Levy but Baruch (1826) must be from another source.

Catherine Aron (Crawcour) had a Barnet (although it looks more like Baruch) in the 1841 census transcript) born C.1828. Could this be him?

Can't find any other reference to Judah, Jacob or Baruch.

Can't find any other reference to Louis (or Lewis) Aaron in later censuses and can only find Hannah (Ann) in the 1881 census.

Lewis Alexander definitely married Elizabeth Stevenson in March quarter 1853 in St. Martin-in-the-Fields parish.

What next?

Steve

phillip

10-11-2009, 12:31 PM

Steve
Take a look on JCR and BJ for the various data bases- I think the Myer Solomon one was on JCR. The last name was Aaron ( no 's') indicating the father's first name but not last name. You are right about the 8 day timing.
Where do we go- still think SOG/JGSGB visits and we may strike lucky. Nb I have not looked in any detail at all the various data bases so there may things we have missed.

There was the 1792 no 32 record which had Jacob b Judah (Russel Court) and 52 Samuel b Moses 1800 and 105 Judah Leib b Moses ( Russell Court) 1803

But my thinking is that the Aaron in the records is likely to be Aaron Aarons ( I couldn't see any other likely names in the JGSGB London trade directories).
Phillip

There maybe a PCC will summary in the Colyer Ferguson data base for Aaron- suggest we look at all Aaron/Aarons when we visit

SRFENN

10-11-2009, 12:56 PM

What is "JCR" and what does one type in to get it? What does one typr in for BJ site as well because, as I said before, I can only get Ancestry.com site all American stuff and they want a subscription to look anything up?

Previously you stated Judah as being 1804, Jacob as !810 and Baruch as 1826. You now state Judah and Jacob as 1792 and Samuel 1800. Could you please clarify all the names and dates concerning the circumcision information as I am very confused now. It seems as if they must all have been sons of Aaron Aaron but I can't locate any of them in any census. Did they all die in childhood?

Steve

phillip

10-11-2009, 3:04 PM

Steve
You are getting mixed up on the data-British Jewry site is free as is the JCR. If you look on Google under the 2 headings you can apply for membership. There are no costs.
The circumcision records I listed included in the last posting children born to other people who may or may not have been Aaron/Aarons- I just noted they were all at Russell Court.
If you go onto the two sites you can access all the data bases yourself and note the results
Phillip

SRFENN

10-11-2009, 4:36 PM

Sorry Philip but I put in "JCR" and all I get is "Journal Citation Reports" and a load of other things that have nothing to do with genealogy. I can't see much at all on the British Jewry website.

Steve

SRFENN

10-11-2009, 4:47 PM

O.K. got it by putting in JCR genealogy. Still can't see anything about circumcision records though???

Steve

SRFENN

10-11-2009, 6:41 PM

You're making me work here Phillip. I found Myer Solomon's register by putting in "Russell Court"; not too logical but it worked! I found quite a few more Russell Courts but I also found Moses b. Aaron 25th October 1829 "Hollywell" Lane. It must be Holywell Lane, Holywell, Shoreditch as I originally suspected. So I now have a birth date and place for my Great Grandfather 18th October 1829. Fantastic! Thanks very much for the lead Phillip. It also confirms that Moses's father's first name was Aaron which also further confirms everything else we have worked out. I never thought I'd manage to get such conclusive evidence. It was worth the diligent detective work.

Steve

phillip

11-11-2009, 9:17 AM

Well done Steve! I thought we would get there. Still think we could strike lucky with SOG etc. When I started my family history research I had nothing- my father said we were Irish. Turns out I have Welsh 4x great grandparents plus those from Poland; West Prussia etc.
I have been very fortunate to work with distant cousins including yourself who shared my passion for family history. Interesting that I dislike jigsaw puzzles; games of all sorts; crossswords etc but do family history!
Phillip

SRFENN

11-11-2009, 10:12 AM

It is certainly fascinating and satisfying when you find something as I have just done. It's like being a detective and it's the piecing together of various clues by the use of logical deduction that is so appealing plus, in my case and, I imagine, most others, a deep interest in history, particularly local history. The places people lived and the professions theu followed give some flesh to the bare bones of names and dates.

Yes, I'd still like to go to S.O.G. and see what we can find there. Let me know when you fancy it. Thanks very much again for all the leads and encouragement, couldn't have got there without your help.

Steve

phillip

11-11-2009, 2:47 PM

Steve
Just thought I would mention my Benjamin and John Hart lines ( my 4 and 3 x great grandfathers) who were in Hollywell Lane/Street at the same time as Aaron and in the same business. Benjamin was originally a slopseller in Rosemary Lane but went into partnership with his son Lewis ( Louis) at 3 and 7 Hollywell St as clothes salesman. John Hart was also in Hollywell as a clothes salesman during the 1820s before moving to the Strand and Regent St. Henry Chapman Hart my 2x great grandfather was also a tailor. The Hart lines ( children of Benjamin and ?) were all tailors/clothiers including Rosa Hart m Henry Moses.
Fortunately, there is data on these lines so it was easier to trace them.
Henry Chapman Hart married Amelia Hart daughter of Aaron Hart and Ann Rebecca Crawcour ( daughter of David Crawcour). You can begin to see how all the families connect.
Will confirm SOG.
Phillip

SRFENN

11-11-2009, 7:05 PM

There might well be other connections with the Aarons but, at this stage, I can't see anything obvious. Holywell Lane is in Holywell hamlet, Shoreditch not far from Short Street where Catherine Crawcour was born. Holywe;; Street was the part of what is now called The Strand which ran to the north of St. mary-Le-Strand church. The only Aaron connection with Holywell Street, as far a I am aware, is Aaron Aarons the furrier whom we have already ruled out.

I am interested to know why Moses Aaron's place of birth was stated as a different location on every census. Obviously Middlesex in 1841 was correct and "Holloway" in 1851 was Holywell as I thought it must be and that has now been proved to be correct also. What about "Strand" in 1861 though??? There was also Bethnal Green, Oxford Street and St. George- in-the-East. Could they have been places where he had lived at some time or other and he, or whoever gave the census information, didn't really know where he was born? Presumably his mother Catherine gave the information in 1841 and 1851 and, obviously, got it right but, thereafter Moses himself must have given it and didn't have a clue about Holywell Lane.

One other thing that intrigues me is the fact that he was a bedstead maker in 1851 and a furniture dealer thereafter. South Shoreditch is the centre of the furniture trade and, presumably, Moses's mother, must have known people there who apprenticed him. The problem is that Catherine & Moses did not live in Holywell in 1841 or 1851 and it is difficult to see how he could have worked in the furniture trade in 1851 when he lived in Walworth. In 1841 he was only twelve and didn't have any trade at that date. Could they have moved back to Holywell between 1841 and 1851 so Moses could do his aprenticeship? It seems highly likely so do you think there might be any records that might verify this theory??? If he did do an aprenticeship there might be some record of it in the hall of the trade guild concerned.

Steve

phillip

12-11-2009, 7:25 AM

Steve
I am not sure about Jews being apprenticed in the 1800s- there were a range of restrictions on what trades they could do and where they trade from hence the type pf work they did. Interesting that Moses did not remain in the clothes trade but Henry Mayhew in the 1850s describes the significant down turn in the second hand clothes business for Jews and how little money they were making.

None of the children of Aaron and Catherine were 'skilled' in terms of work other than Joseph who became a tailor. Making bedsteads looks to me as if Moses was either assembling manufactured bed parts or else working in a metal factory where they made the sections or both. He obviously moved to other work. I don't think a bedstead maker would require an apprenticeship but I could be wrong- looks unskilled work to me.
Interesting about where they were born and the variety- all depends on who is saying what to the census recorder and I suspect they would record a general area rather than being specific. There are various apprenticeship records for trades which the specfic organisations hold. There are likely to be other records in the Metropolitan Records Office which was near to the Family history centre.
Phillip

SRFENN

12-11-2009, 9:56 AM

You're probably right about aprenticeship and bedstead maker being unskilled because, if he had done an aprencticeship he would have called himself a joiner and been a member of the Worshipful Company of Joiners. I assumed bedsteads would have been made of wood in the 1840s and 50s but they could have been metal and, therefore, made anywhere and nothing to do with South Shoreditch. It just struck me as interesting that South Shoreditch was the hub of the furniture trade and Moses was born there and in that trade, albeit probably only selling it because in one census he is described as a house furnisher. Catherine might still have had connections with people in the furniture trade who knew someone else who gave Moses a job making bedsteads.

Steve

phillip

12-11-2009, 12:32 PM

Steve
I have looked again at the JewishGen London Jews pre 1850 data base ( see jewishgen.org) and noted those Aaron who were in the clothes trade- they may or may not have been related to Aaron.
The names included D S Aaron Sugar Loaf Court 1807; Joseph Aaron Swan Court 1807 and later High St Lambeth; Levy Aaron 32 Holywell St 1809
Have not looked further on London Gazette but it might prove useful to cross reference.
Also, as I said before there are researchers on the SIG group of JewishGen who have identified an interest in Aaron and Aarons lines. I have not contacted them- JewishGen membership is free.
Phillip

SRFENN

12-11-2009, 3:58 PM

Yes I signed up to J. Gen but nothing much else as far as I can see other than what we have already looked at. I'll take another look just in case something looks hopeful.

Steve

SRFENN

15-11-2009, 7:28 PM

Well nothing more that I can see. You stated on one of your earlier postings that Rebecca Crawcour was at Russell Court in 1817 and that this information was from a Sun fire policy. Where can one view the Sun policies?

Presumably, if she was the policy holder, she must have been also the owner of the premises??? I should not have thought that a tenant would take out a fire insurance policy. There should be some title deeds somewhere???

If she did own the property it was not necessarilly No. 5, where Aaron Aarons lived, but could have been another house in the same court or, perhaps she was the owner and Aaron Aarons was the tenant and Rebecca didn't actually live there at all???

What's your view on this?

Steve

phillip

16-11-2009, 6:39 AM

Steve
The address I have for Catherine Aarons nee Crawcour is 23 Russell Court 1817. She died 1821.The Sun Fire Policy Registers are held at the Guildhall London for 1800-1839 and there is a link to the index via National Archives. If you type Sun Fire Policies on Google it will give you the link. One of my Jacobs distant cousins has looked at the registers in London but not for Crawcour/Aarons. It might be worth a visit.
Phillip

SRFENN

16-11-2009, 11:45 AM

So she was at a different house in Russell Court to Aaron Aarons. So the other Aarons's in Myer Levy's circumcision register could have been at houses in Russell Court other than No. 5 as well so not necessarilly sons of Aaron Aaron. In fact, they might be sons of anybody with a first name of Aaron and nothing to do with the surname Aarons???

Steve

phillip

16-11-2009, 3:01 PM

Depends how far you want to speculate Steve. I have looked at the entire register on the circumsion register and unless there are other Aaron at Russell Court e.g. Aaron Moses; Aaron Jacobs etc then it looks pretty likely that the children were Aaron Aarons. There were also no other Aarons at Russell Court for the period were are looking for other than the ones in the London Trade Directories on JewishGen. I have no data to say that Rebecca was always at 25 Russell Court but it looks pretty likely she went there on the death of her husband in 1816. I have no idea how big Russell Court was but think it unlikely that there were numerous other males with first name Aaron. Also the Moses Aarons circumcision record indicated a postive date for his dob.

The Aaron Aarons furrier was as we know a different person so I do not believe that we have made 2 +2 =5.

Take a look at the Sun Fire Registers on line because that will also show who else might have a recorded a trade at Russell Court- I doubt if you will see any Aaron... who are not the person we are looking for.
Phillip

phillip

16-11-2009, 4:49 PM

Steve
In 1820 at 5 Russell Court there was James Roach bookseller and bankrupt. If you look on Google Books under 5 Russell Court you will see for Tait's Edinburgh Magazine 1848 a description of Russell Court and the buildings. It looks pretty grim by that date!
At 23 Russell Court between 1822-1828 was John Lewis Marks publisher and printer.
Phillip

SRFENN

16-11-2009, 5:27 PM

There were a lot of circumcisions in Russell Court; 24 other than the Aarons ones between 1799 and 1828, so there were a lot of people having baby boys in those thirty years all in one small court; busy place! Booth's poverty map of 1898 shows it as pink - fairly comfortable, so it wasn't a slum and must have been about the same, or no worse, in the early part of the century.

I can find no census records or death records for the Aaron circumcision names so, if their surnames were Aarons, they must have died before July 1837.

I have looked at the Sun fire policies and I found Rebecca "Craucour" 1817 with the annotation "other property or occupiers: Cook (bookseller)". So it would seem that Rebecca Crawcour must have been the insured but the premises was let to Cook the bookseller. I found Joseph Bottrell, carpenter at Nos. 2 & 5 in 1819 but no Aaron Aarons so could Botrell have been the owner of No. 5 and let it to Aaron Aarons? I also found a JUDAH Moses, tailor & salesman, at No. 3.

I am convinced that the insured person was the owner and not necessarilly the occupier so Rebecca Crawcour might not have moved there at all after Samuel died in 1816.

There are no insurance policies under Aaron or Aarons.

Steve

SRFENN

16-11-2009, 6:43 PM

Can't get anything about 5, Russell Court on Google Books. What, exactly, did you type in?

Steve

SRFENN

16-11-2009, 7:23 PM

There's an engraving of Russell Court in 1848 on Google Images. Looks a bit shabby.

Steve

phillip

17-11-2009, 7:13 AM

Steve
Look under 5 Russell Court- Drury Lane. Haven't looked in the National Archives or London Gazette or British Library Newspapers under the address. You might want to take a look.
Phillip

SRFENN

17-11-2009, 3:51 PM

That's bettr; got it now, thank you.

Steve

SRFENN

20-11-2009, 8:55 AM

Well I think we've come to a complete standstill now Phillip. I don't think there is much else we can do until we make that visit to the S.O.G. Just one aspect you might be able to provide a little more information on though; the weddings. You have the dates of Aaron Aarons' (senior) marriages to Catherine Solomons and Hannah Levy abd the date of Aaron Aarons' (junior) to Catherine Crawcour so do you have places that these marriages took place or adresses where the parties lived at the time or parents' names? Every little bit of information helps the overall picture.

Steve

phillip

20-11-2009, 11:25 AM

Steve
The Cemetery Scribes record has the names of Hannah Levy father Joseph and HaLevi which is the priestly tribe plus where and when Catherine and Hannah were married e.g. Gt Synagogue. The 1806 marriage date for Catherine Crawcour comes from a record which one of my distant relatives got from SOG some 10 years ago. I don't have any more details but I do have Levy relatives via Crawcour/Hart and Jacobs and I am just wondering about all these potential links.
The trip to SOG is possibly going to tell us more- have you looked on the British Jewry site for further data on the marriages?

Once I get a breathing space I will meet up with you at SOG.
Phillip

phillip

20-11-2009, 2:14 PM

Steve
I have looked on Old Bailey Online and note Joseph Levy -Clare Court Drury Lane 1800- he had a shop and his wife was Sarah - looks as if he was a clothes salesman. Also, Joseph and Hannah Levy 1819- Cutler St and Moses Meyers brother in law to Hannah; Joseph Levy Hollywell St; Joseph Levy 1808 29 Minories- linen shop.
All pure speculation as to whether or not there is any connection to Hannah Levy m Aaron Aarons. Have not looked any further.

At SOG there are numerous Levy/Levi records from Hyamson/Colyer Ferguson and I hold some 10 pages of copies but could not see any likely link but these were only PCC will summaries and not family trees.
Phillip

phillip

20-11-2009, 6:03 PM

Steve
I had a look at the JewishGen London Traders data base and noted for Joseph Levy clothiers/tailors/dealers in clothes ( I was thinking that Hannah Levy's father Joseph might have been in the same trade as Aaron Aarons- pure speculation) and noted:
Joseph Levy 1814 11 Hollywell Street and was at the same address up to 1825
Joseph Levy 10 Hollywell St 11830-46
Joseph Levy 5 Rosemary Lane 1827/28
Joseph Levy 14 Hemmings Row 1827-28
Joseph Levy 29 Minories 1827-28
Joseph Levy 4 Church St Minories 1802

There are others and there may or may not be connections.
Phillip

Ps Did not look at Levi

phillip

20-11-2009, 6:18 PM

Steve
Godfrey Levy who married Sarah Crawcour had a father Joseph Eliyakum Ha Levi - 49 Tooley St -silversmith. Is Hannah Levy the daughter of this Joseph?
Just looking at possibilities.
Phillip

SRFENN

20-11-2009, 7:13 PM

All a bit impossible to prove but keep trying, you never know what might turn up. I've been trying to see if I could find a link between Rebecca Crawcour (nee Levy) and Hannah Levy but haven't managed to find anything so far. What I really want to find, if possible, is the Elizabeth Aron in the 1841 census living with Catherine and her family. She must be Aaron Aron's sister and Aaron Aarons' (senior) daughter. Aaron Aarons (senior) must have been married to someone before Catherine Solomons and had Elizabeth (C.1786) and Aaron (1789) with this first wife.

I did see a Hannah Levy on the Family Search site B 1882, daughter of Moss Levy and there is a Sarah Hart B. 1805 on the tree. Are they anything to do with you?

Steve

phillip

21-11-2009, 7:59 AM

Steve
I note on Free BMD the death of Elizabeth Aarons age 99 Mile End 1879. Elizabeth Aron was 72 in 1861 census born circa 1789 so it looks as if they are one in the same.

On the subject of the Levy/Hart names- I do not know the names of any siblings of my 4 x great grandfathers Benjamin Hart and Henry Hart. For all I know there are numerous relatives I have yet to identify.
Benjamin Hart died circa 1836 and was a clothier/tailor in Rosemary Lane/Hollywell St and Henry Hart died pre 1841 and was at 90 Leman Street in 1808 as a boot maker. His two sons Aaron and John took over the business at 62 Leman Street in 1841 and later in 1846 at 156 Houndsditch as shoe and boot manaufacturers.
Phillip

SRFENN

21-11-2009, 8:37 AM

The Elizabeth you refer to in the 1861 census is the one at 120, High Street, Whitechapel but I can't find her in 1851 or after 1861. I can't even find her in 1861 now, at least, not on the Find my past or Genes reunited sites. I must have found her originally on Ancestry.com; was that where you found her? It's really hopeless when different websites have different information; who can you trust?

Steve

phillip

22-11-2009, 8:24 AM

Steve
There are other subscribe record sites- the difficulty with all of them is that they are dependant on the quality of the transcribers. Remember what happened with the 1901 census.
If you look on the British Jewry site under their Archives you will see that a lister has made a record of the surnames held in the Hyamson collection and these include Aaron and Aarons. The weakness of the SOG records is that the family trees have no first names and this takes time to loook through each record.
Whether or not our people are listed we don't know but usually Colyer Ferguson and Hyamson would record reasonably well known families and we could strike lucky if a family member left a copy of a tree.
Phillip

SRFENN

22-11-2009, 8:48 AM

I don't think the Elizabeth Aarons that died in 1879 can be the same as the Elizabeth Aron in the 1861 census as there would be a 9 year difference in the ages nor can the ages be juggled to correspond exactly with he 1841 census. It is also impossible to make the ages given in the 1861 and 1841 censuses correspond exactly, even allowing for the possible 5 or 6 year difference, so I really don't know whether any of the three are the same person or not. At least the 1861 and 1841 censuses both have the same spelling Aron which suggests that Elizabeth (if it is she in 1861) might not have added the 's' to her name when others did so which would mean that the Aarons in 1879 is definitely not the same person and, given the age difference as well, that would seem to be fairly conclusive.

Steve

phillip

22-11-2009, 5:50 PM

Steve
I have looked on Free BMD for Elizabeth Aron/Aaron/Aarons and other than the 1879 entry can see March 1889 Thanet age 82 Elizabeth Aron and March 1885 Elizabeth Aarons 86.
Take a look and see what you discover. What suggestions have you got?
Phillip

SRFENN

22-11-2009, 7:17 PM

Yes, I've looked at all Free BMD Elizabeth Aron/Aaron/Aarons deaths and marriages betweeen 1841 and 1881 and there are some possibles but, as no ages were give n before 1865, it is not much help. The two you mentioned are much too late for the Elizabeth born C. 1786 (or before). As I said before, I am unable to reconcile the 1861 age witht any of the six possible 1841 birth years and, as Elizabeth cannot be found in 1851, I believe she must have died between 1841 and 1851. As she was 55 in 1841, it seems unlikely that she married and I cannot think that she would have emigrated on her own at that age. The possible deaths between 1841 and 1851 are as follows:-

Elizabeth Aron Sep 1845 Manchester
Elizabeth Aaron Sep 1846 Halifax
Elizabeth Aarons Dec 1841 Strand
Elizabeth Aarons Dec 1843 St. George-in-the-East
Elizabeth Aarons Dec 1847 Whitechapel

I have excluded the Welsh ones and it is unlikely that Halifax is a candidate. Manchester could be a possibiluty but the best bets would seem to be the last three. If only thye had given ages it would ahve made things far easier.

The point is, even if we got death certificates, and even if we got an age that corresponded, it would not tell us much else other than where Elizabeth was when she died. It would be interesting to know that but would not assist much in tracing anyone else.

I think we have ground to a halt, at least for the time being.

Steve

phillip

27-11-2009, 1:18 PM

Steve and other researchers
Gaby Laws and Angela Shire have developed another excellent data base containing records of Ashkenazi synagogue records including circumcision, marriage, births, burials.
The records can be seen under the Synagogue Scribes site.
Importantly numbers of these records contain data which has not previously been transcribed.
The marriages of Aaron Aarons at the Great Synagogue to Hannah Levy and Catherine Solomons are recorded plus many other Aaron/Aarons names.
Phillip

SRFENN

27-11-2009, 4:45 PM

Thanks Phillip.

Steve

phillip

04-12-2009, 9:25 AM

Steve
You may already have seen this entry but Gaby Laws has kindly drawn it to my attention.
See Synagogue Scribes- death/burial of Jacob b Aaron Hague (Aarons) died/buried 1 March 1808 Ref DPL0463

This links to the Cemetery Scribes records for the Aaron Aaron(s) Hague
Phillip

SRFENN

05-12-2009, 8:34 AM

Thank you Philip & Gaby but I can't find anything in S.C. site. What, exactly, soes one have to type in to get it? I've tried Jacob Hague, Jacob Aaron, Jacob Aarons and a few other alternatives but get nothing.

Steve

phillip

05-12-2009, 8:42 AM

Steve
I would never have found the Jacob Aaron (s) record but Gaby told me to go to Advance Search and type in Hague where the section requests Father's Hebrew name.
There maybe other similar records of that nature but of course we do not have the clue where to look unless someone advises us.
I have not forgotten the SOG visit but it is going to be the New Year.
Phillip

CemeteryScribes

06-12-2009, 12:48 AM

Hi Steve and Philip,

I know it can seem a little complicated. The complication is really down to the fact that many of the burial records we have transliterated from the Hebrew entries in the register do not have the 'English' family name.

So in this case, I believe the starting point was an entry on Cemetery Scribes for Aaron Aarons whose Hebrew name was Aharon b.( ben = son of) Jacob Hag or Hague.

This means that Aaron's father was Jacob Hague or Jacob from the Hague. There is no way of knowing for certain whether Jacob used the family name Aarons or something else or even perhaps Hag / Hague.

So the only 'certain' piece of info for Aaron's father is his Hebrew name, Jacob and Hag / Hague. Hence why I suggested that using Advanced Search for the father's Hebrew name and entering Hag or Hague there.

If you prefer you can use the 'Keyword' search available from the Advanced Search page and that will search across all the fields. Obviously entering Jacob will bring up too many results but Hag / Hague is more unusual.

Please see 'Site Info' for more information on using the various search facilities available.

We are pleased to see that this should get you one step further back as from the entry shows Jacob's father was Aaron Hague.

SRFENN

06-12-2009, 11:39 AM

Thank you Gaby and Phillip. I finally got there by typing in ONLY the father's Hebrew name box an nothing else; if I put Jacob in the first name box I get nothing. So we now know that jacob must have come to England as well but it all leads to even more questions than we had before. Two things which we might have expected, and which would have been very useful, that the Synagogue records do not tell us are where Jacob was buried and how old he was and, if there are records for some people connected with Jacob from the Hague, where are the others such as his wife? If she came with him from the Netherlands she must have died here so why no record? Is the Great Synagogue the only source of genealogical information at this period?

By the way, please excuse my previous typing errors, I think I must be getting dyslexic in my old age.

Thanks again for your assistance Gaby, very kind of you to show such an interest.

I look forward to the S.O.G. visit Phillip as soon as you can make it.

Steve

phillip

06-12-2009, 12:13 PM

Steve
If you look on the Gt Synagogue Burial Records 2 (Part 1) Susser ref 3013 and 3237 you will see:
3013 wife of Aaron b Jacob HAG wife of Aaron Aarons

3237 Hena bat Zvi b Jacob HAGUE

Unfortunately Susser could find no dates for the burials but we have some more clues
Phillip

CemeteryScribes

06-12-2009, 12:57 PM

Hi Steve

In this particular case 'Jacob' is not recorded ('NR') as his English first name and could only be determined from his Hebrew name. For all we know he may have used any English name as his first name so hence you can't get a result that way.

To give a further example, Philip mentions Hena bat Zvi b Jacob HAGUE, so this would be Hena daughter of Zvi son of Jacob Hague. This information is obviously from the Hebrew record. Zvi is often 'Henry' as an English first name but not always. Chances are though to find 'Zvi' you would need to look for him as 'Zvi' or 'Henry' or whatever English name he chose to use.

Its a useful part of the learning curve with Jewish genealogy!

I've not really seen any of these burial records contain age at death apart from for a few young children, that is more often found on the headstone if one is lucky enough for it to still be there and legible, or whether there was ever a stone in the first place.

I can help on one part, the place of burial - the record is from 'DPL' and if you check the 'sources' page on the Synagogue Scribes site you will see that its for Brady Street Cemetery. We can't be 100% certain as some of the records are for burials at Alderney Cemetery but as this was 1808 and although Alderney was still open we would strongly suspect it was Brady Street. You can find histories for both these cemeteries on Cemetery Scribes site.

To understand more about this period it would be an idea to do a little searching on the history of the Great Synagogue and Ashkenazi Jews in London. Also Ashkenazi naming patterns.

I've added the date of death for Catherine SOLOMONS, Aaron AARONS first wife to Cemetery Scribes.

Hope this helps a bit.
Gaby

phillip

06-12-2009, 4:12 PM

Many thanks Gaby for your help. The two sites you and Angela have developed are excellent sources of data and coupled with Petra Laidlaw's 1851 census data present first rate opportunities for Anglo Jewish researchers to trace their roots.
Phillip

SRFENN

06-12-2009, 5:55 PM

Thanks very much again Gaby, that's helped a little. Sirry Phillip, once again, I cannot get to the record you mention. Please advise exactly what I am supposed to enter in order to get to the Great Synagogue burial records.
Steve

phillip

06-12-2009, 6:32 PM

Steve
You need to look under the Susser Archives-JCR-UK databases for the Gt Syn and other records- see also the British Jewry data bases.
Phillip

Ps If you are stuck go to Google and type in Jacob Hag ( you will see a link to another website)

SRFENN

06-12-2009, 7:15 PM

O.K., got there via jacob Hag (U.K. web pages only) but couldn't get there via Susser; there was no blue link to the Great Synagogue burial records on the Jewish Gen, site. I don't know how you manage to get to these things so easily when I find so much difficulty. Anyway, we're slowly getting more and more pieces to the jigsaw but it's hard going. Thanks again.

Steve

phillip

06-12-2009, 7:36 PM

Steve
The only reason I can find the various sources is because I have been doing it for some years. By the way, we are discovering Dutch roots which I always suspected- I think my Hart and Myers lines are German/Dutch. My Jacobs/Lietzen line is certainly German.

My lines link to various prominent German lines including those of the Chief Rabbi Rev Dr Nathan Adler and his family through marriage - Hart/Solomon.
I will post some of these links for other researchers.
Phillip

phillip

07-12-2009, 8:48 AM

Steve
I have not looked in any detail at the Dutch Jewry site but it may be worth a visit to see if Aaron/Aarons etc or combinations of the names including Hag or recorded. I do not believe the search will be a simple one because of the possible range of names that could have been used.
If you Google- Dutch Jewry the site will be listed.
Phillip

phillip

07-12-2009, 1:50 PM

Steve
There maybe no connection but on Google Books I noted under Jacob Aarons a German site which recorded the Jews in what was Fedderwarden Germany- I cannot read German but noted the reference to Jacob Aarons in Fedderwarden 1802 and also Moses Aarons same date.
Phillip

SRFENN

07-12-2009, 5:41 PM

I did try the Dutch Jewry site but couldn't find anything. The German site sounds a bit of a long shot. The wife of aaron Aarons on the Great Synagogue burial register you told me about was interesting because it might well be Aaron Aarons' first wife (before Catherine Solomons) and, therefore, the mother of Aaron arons born C.1789 (husband of Catherine Crawcour). As the marriages to Catherine Solomons & Hannaah Levy are recorded elsewhere, it seems very likely that this could definitely be a previous wife to both of them. Shame there is no name or date.

There is now another problem which has arisen from the Synagogue Scribes information. It lists a Rebecca Levy married to Henry Aaron/s in 1803 who must have died before 1815. She must have been Hannah Levy's sister and they were married to Henry and Arron Aarons respectively. Therefore, Rebecca Crawcour (nee Levy) cannot be the sister of Hannah Levy but could possibly be a cousin??? Unless Rebecca Crawcour was the sister and the other Rebecca Levy was the cousin???

Couldn't they have been a bit more imaganitve with their names???

Steve

SRFENN

07-12-2009, 6:37 PM

Well look what I found on the Great Synagogue birial register.

Part 1 - Page 9 or 10
80 Goldi b.Zeligman wife 7 Av +l OR Rosemary Lane
of Aaron b.Jacob HAG [UE] 16 July Kitty Aarons

So this must be Aaron Aarons' first wife. Don't know what the "Kitty" is supposed to be. Why the hell doesn't this register have at least dates and the name of the cemetery if not ages???

Steve

phillip

07-12-2009, 7:38 PM

Steve
You are doing well- is Kitty the family name for the original name Catherine? Nothing is easy in this search. Rosemary Lane was the location of numerous Jewish second hand clothiers including my Benjamin Hart line.
I am also looking!
Good work
Phillip

phillip

07-12-2009, 8:24 PM

Steve
I see that Goldi (Kitty )was the daughter of Zeligman- if you look on the postings under "To the Hart of the Matter" on this Jewish Roots listing you will see various references to the last name Zeligman which can also be Selig/Zelig/Zelik/Seligman and others. You will also see the reference to the marriage of Moses Hart to Martha Aarons a tailoress.
In Berger 1871-80 there is reference to Henry Aarons and Mrs H Myers 64 Russell St Liverpool and in the London Gazette 1797 there is reference to Mr Ephraim Zeligman.

No idea if any of this sheds any light on our research and side links to our Aarons/Levy lines but best to look at all options.
Phillip

SRFENN

08-12-2009, 10:37 AM

Can't see how Kitty or Catherine relate to Goldi; possibly Kitty was a nickname after another member of the family called Catherine??? It cannot be anything to do with Catherine (Kitty) Crawcour. Obviously Kitty was a common shortening of Catherine and there seem to be a lot of Catherines in this story.

Thanks for the latest information; I'll have a look for Zeligman.

Steve

SRFENN

08-12-2009, 10:42 AM

Oh dear! We have hit another snag. The G.S. burial register DOES have years but only at the beginning of each year and not for every single entry. So Goldi was buried 16th July 1793 which conflicts with the marriage of Aaron Aarons to Catherine Solomons in 1792. What are we going to do now??????

Steve

phillip

08-12-2009, 4:36 PM

Steve
This is getting confusing! Are we still looking at the right Jacob ( Aaron Aarons) for our lines? Gaby, if you are reading these last postings can you please shed any light on the records. I am still hoping that we may find more data at SOG. Goldi is the Hebrew name so I didn't think this related to Sarah Catherine Crawcour ( by the way I believe she is Sarah Catherine Crawcour if the Old Bailey trial record is correct for her appearance as a witness for Barnett Aaron).
Phillip

SRFENN

08-12-2009, 5:15 PM

Yes, all the Arron Aarons are "b.Jacob Hag" so they have to all be the same person. The only possibility is if the burial register is wrong and the date should be 1792 instead of 1793 then it would all be o.k.

There is still one other problem and that is Elizabeth Aron (who is in the 1841 census with Catherine and her family). I assumed that she must have been Aaron Aarons' sister and Catherine's sister-in-law but, if Aaron Aarons senior was born in 1767 and Elizabeth was born between 1781-86, Aaron Aarons senior would have been only 14 - 19 when she was born and, therefore, very unlikely to have been her father. So who was she?

It's all getting a little tricky isn't it?

Steve

phillip

08-12-2009, 6:35 PM

Steve
In trying to identify Elizabeth Aron/Aaron
I did an Advanced Search on Synagogue Scribes and came up with:
GSM 087/42
Marriage
Aaron Aaron 13 June 1804 -father Eli Frank
Spouse Elizabeth Cohen
father Eliezer Lezer Cohen

HSM 036
0ct 27 1813
Abraham Aaron -father Pinchas Zelig
Spouse Elizabeth Jacobs
father Pinchas k/a Zelig
( Not sure what the last bit means if Abraham's father was also Pinchas Zelig)

What do you think about the Aaron Aaron marriage- is this another person we know nothing about if indeed it is the correct Elizabeth!
Phillip

SRFENN

08-12-2009, 7:19 PM

I don't know Phillip. I think we are going off the track somewhat; there are so many people in the same areas at around the same period with the same names it gets too confusing. Still; don't give up will you? Something else might turn up if we keep digging.

Steve

SRFENN

08-12-2009, 7:30 PM

Just been looking at Old Bailey trials again and found the trial of Saunders Alexander & others 6/12/1775 and two of the character witnesses are Aaron Aarons and Hannah Levy. Do you reckon they made a living from being character witnesses for thieves and receivers?

Steve

SRFENN

08-12-2009, 7:41 PM

There is another trial Solomon Gabriel 8/12/1779 with Hannah Levi and Aaron Aarons as prosecution witnesses. These must be earlier generations of Aaron and Hannah because our ones would have been too young at the dates in question. Is all this helping or hindering our investigations???

Steve

phillip

08-12-2009, 8:16 PM

Steve
We have had several thousand 'hits' on our messages but surprisingly no one other than a couple of other people have contacted us. All of this is a bit like the work Pat Coppel and I put into the Crawcour research- it looks as if you and I are going to have to do all the 'digging'. I like your comments about the Aarons and Levy witnesses- I think we need to log all of this until I can get to SOG.
Let's keep looking!
Phillip

CemeteryScribes

09-12-2009, 12:07 AM

Hi Guys,

You asked:

> Gaby, if you are reading these last postings can you please shed any light on the records. I am still hoping that we may find more data at SOG. Goldi is the Hebrew name so I didn't think this related to Sarah Catherine Crawcour ( by the way I believe she is Sarah Catherine Crawcour if the Old Bailey trial record is correct for her appearance as a witness for Barnett Aaron).
Phillip <

Think the answer, if I am following all this correctly at this late hour is found on the entry on CemeteryScribes:

Catherine (Kitty) Solomons her Hebrew name Golda(you have Goldi) bat(daughter of) Zeligman, married on 2 Nov 1792 to Aaron Aarons. Catherine died/buried 16 Jul 1793*.

* we have located the burial record in source-DPL and transliterated it but its not yet on SynagogueScribes - uploading in batches, another 100 went on the other day. I think I mentioned a few posts ago that I had added her date of death to CemeteryScribes.

Aaron Arrons then marries on 23 Oct 1793 to Hannah Levy.

Does that help?

Gaby

SRFENN

09-12-2009, 8:58 AM

I was wondering whether it might be the case but , even if "Goldi" is the Hebrew name for Catherine, how does "Zeligman" tie in with "Solomons"???

So, if Goldi Zeligman is Catherine Solomons, that still leaves us with the major problem of the Aaron Aarons born C.1789. Was he the son of of Aaron Aarons born C. 1767 or was he someone else's son entirely? It seems, now, as if he must have been from a different father so what's the connection between the Aaron Aarons born C. 1789, husband of Catherine Crawcour and the Aarons family in Russell Court apart from the fact that Rebecca Crawcour lived in Ruussel Court in 1817 ???

I have seen no record anywhere of the younger Aaron Aarons' birth except on his death certificate which states his age as 49 in 1838 so he was born C. 1789.
There does not apear to be any other record of him or his parents anywhere at all. If he is not the son of Aaron Aarons of Russell Court (born C. 1767) then he has nothing whatsoever to do with Jacob Hague or any of the stuff we have been investigating over the past couple of weeks.

Just as I thought we were getting there it seems to all be dissolving very rapidly.

Steve

phillip

09-12-2009, 6:54 PM

Steve
I have no simple answers to the questions. We still have no confirmed idea of who Catherine Crawcour married other than it was someone called Aarons. It's interesting that for all the other Crawcour siblings I have a record of who they married other than Catherine and her brother Andrew.
The only connection we have to an Aarons clothier is via Catherine's occupation which is how Pat Coppel linked her to Aaron Aarons clothes salesman at Russell Court. Of course this could be completly wrong. The death cert also is no confirmation that this Aaron is also the same person who married Catherine.
There are too many missing pieces.
Any thoughts?
Phillip

SRFENN

10-12-2009, 3:42 PM

We have already established fairly certainly that the Catherine Aron in the 1841 census is the same as the Catherine Aaron in the 1851 census and that she is Catherine Crawcour married to Aaron Aarons in 1806.

Because of the links between Rebecca Crawcour living at Russell Court in 1817 and her maiden name being Levy and the presumed relationship to Hannah Levy, we have assumed that the Aaron Aarons of 5, Russell Court and husband of Hannah must be related to the Aaron Aarons who married Catherine Crawcour and I assumed that, given the 22 year difference in their ages and them both having the same name, one must be the son of the other.

The reasons why I was fairly certain that the Aaron Aarons who died in 1838 was Catherine's husband was because he was named Aaron Aarons, he was 49 years old and, therefore, born C. 1788/9 and, so only 2 or 3 years younger than Catherine Crawcour and, he died before the 1841 census. Also, there were no other Aaron Aaron deaths between 1837 and 1841. It is, of course, conceiveable that Catherine's husband died before 1837 and that no record is available. He must, however, have died after August 1831 to have been the father of Ester Aron, Catherine's last child born C. 1833.

There is also the fact that the Aaron Aarons who died in 1838 was, according to the death certificate, a "dealer in rags" which does not fit well with either the 1841 census "clothes shop" occupation of Catherine, the "clothes salesman" of Aaron Aarons of Russell Court and certainly not with the "master tailor" description of Catherine's husband at the time of her death. Nor does it sound like the husband of someone who became a dentist by 1851.

The other thing against the 1838 A.A. being the son of A.A. of Russell Court is, as I said before, Catherine's presumed sister-in-law. Elizabeth born between 1781 and 1786. If A.A. senior was born C. 1767, he would have been only between 14 & 19 years of age when Elizabeth was born and it seems unlikely that he could have been her father. She might, of course, have been Catherine's husband's cousin but sister seems more probable.

The only reason I have C.1789 for Catherine's husband's birth is because of the age on the death certificate so, if the Aaron Aarons of the 1838 death certificate is the wrong person, Catherine's husband could have been born at some other date but that would not alter the date for Elizabeth's birth.

So, Phillip, we are going round in circles and more confused than ever. The more I think about it, the less likely it seems to be that Catherin'es husband was the son of Aaron Arons of Russell Court. So what alternatives are there?
How certain are you that Rebecca Crawcour was a Levy and that she was the same Rebecca as the one that was living at Russell Court in 1817? If this connection is flawed then it would invalidate everything to do with Russell Court, Jacob Hague etc., etc.

Before you shoot yourself Phillip, please let me know your opinion on all this.

Steve

phillip

10-12-2009, 6:31 PM

Steve
All your points are very good ones and I have thought along the same lines as yourself. The Crawcour name is a rare one and every Crawcour/CrawCour/Cracour listed on the internet are related via Samuel Crawcour. I and Pat hold too many records world wide to suggest otherwise and we have been able to link the various individuals through contacts with distant relatives.
Of course Pat could have made 2+2 =5 regarding the relationship of Aaron Aarons of Russell Court and Rebecca Crawcour of Russell Court. I do not take the various occupations as clothes salesman/slop seller/master tailor/rag dealer for Aarons in a limited sense not least because they were all the same titles as my Benjamin Hart 4x great grandfather and his son John Hart occupations- my 3x great grandfather John Hart had been recorded in these various titles and was also a military tailor and had shops.
Unfortunately the will of Moses Crawcour in 1858 does not specify the first name of Catherine ( Kitty) Crawcour's first husband so we have no clue to guide us.
The Levy connection to the Crawcour line is a real one via Godfrey Godfrey formerly Levy and there is a PCC will which confirms this. Pat was speculating that this link was wider.
I am hoping that we will find the Aarons link at SOG ( I have been fortunate in the past with other research. I had also hoped that someone might have identified the right Aaron for us but no such luck!
Don't let's give up we still have research to do.
Phillip

SRFENN

10-12-2009, 7:51 PM

So you are saying that Catherine Crawcour's husband was somebody Aarons (or Aron/Aaron) but not definitely Aaron Aarons? You also say "first husband", Have you definite evidence that she married twice and, if so, when and to whom. She is supposed to have died in 1858 and she was alone with her son Moses in 1851.

I was just looking on Synagogue Scribes again and discovered Jacon Aaron married to Hannah Levy in 1800 and Aaron Aaron married to Ann Levy in 1812. Also a Kitty Aaron (Henre Gala - divorcee) married to Joseph Solomonin 1812.
It just gets deeper and deeper. Just how many Aarons were there at the turn of the 19th century?

Steve

phillip

10-12-2009, 8:43 PM

Steve
I have no confirmation that Aaron was the first name of Catherine's husband and it is Pat not me who has put the data together ( he is usually very good at making the correct connections but we need definite proof rather than speculation).It was my slip to have inferred Catherine was married twice ( typing too quickly). It is you and I who are now trying to tie the pieces together!

Key point - would Catherine have taken up a trade such as clothes selling if it was not originally the same business as her husband? If so, this limits the number of Aarons in the clothes trade who were around pre 1841 census record. The London Jews Trade records from JewishGen give the names for those recorded in the Trade Directories but this will not have included all of them who were not listed.
Another point if Catherine married in 1806 why didn't she have children from that period of time. Why did the person who made the record I hold give this date?
Have run out of options at present.
Phillip

SRFENN

12-12-2009, 9:25 AM

Could you check with Pat and ask if he has actual hard evidence for Catherine Crawcour marrying AARON Aarons/Aaron/Aron or whether the first name Aaron is merely sepculation and also for the 1806 date. The I think the only way to go is to look into the Levys and their connections with the Aarons and see what we can find there. Have you got anything on this already? What do you think about the other Rebecca Levy married to Henry Aaron?

Steve

phillip

12-12-2009, 9:31 AM

Steve
Remind me not to do research and do postings when feeling unwell and not thinking clearly. Of course we know that Catherine's husband was Aaron Aarons because it says so on her death cert- see early posting of details. This limits the names of Aaron Aarons we need to research particularly those in the clothes trade. When we meet up I will bring the copies of the GRO cert and Moses Crawcour will I hold in relation to Catherine.
I wonder if Aaron left a will or letter of administration and it maybe that this is listed in the PCC records at SOG. There is however nothing listed under the wills on the National archives but you might want to take another look.Similarly there are other records regarding Death Duties in the National Archives I have not looked at.
Berger 1871-80 may also hold clues regarding Elizabeth Aron.
Apologies for causing confusion in some early postings.
Phillip

SRFENN

12-12-2009, 10:41 AM

Don't worry Phillip, I know the problem; you go so far and then forget where you got the information or why you knew a certain fact and then have to go through everything again to re-trace your reasoning; all very frustrating and time-consuming. I suppose we should really write our sources next to the information we write down so we can remember in future where it came from and what deductions we made from it but you don't think to do that when you're busy looking up things do you?

So the 1806 marriage date for Catherine is definite as well is it?

So what do you think about looking into the Levy connection then? I really don't know what other line to take now.

Steve

phillip

12-12-2009, 11:11 AM

Steve
The 1806 marriage is on the SOG visit records that a Crawcour relative made. The records are all typed but I have no name of who recorded the data and the date is Oct 23 2000. By the look of it they must have located a reference amongst the data to give such a precise date for the marriage of Catherine but there is no source recorded and the first name of Aarons is not recorded. Catherine's dob is given circa 1786.
We know from a copy of the Hyamson records that Catherine's father Samuel died 21 Nov 1816 and her mother in 1821-we can see the naming patterns of Catherine and Aaron's children and the approx date of their births. So if Catherine married in 1806 why was there such a delay in her having children?
Given that Catherine married Aaron Aarons there are only a few candidates who were also in the clothes trade for the period pre 1841 census. It doesn't look from the census records that the family were doing well regarding occupations and where they lived after 1841 and I suspect that is why Moses Crawcour named his sister in the first bequest in the 1858 will.
The Levy lines are another area for indepth research.
Phillip

phillip

12-12-2009, 11:56 AM

Steve
I have started a separate thread for Joseph Levy -see posting and data on his lines
Phillip

SRFENN

12-12-2009, 8:16 PM

We asked the question before about Aaron & Catherine not having children for twelve years. Perhaps they did have children before 1818 but they did not survive and were not recorded??? I suggested that the Catherine Aarons who died 6/1/1814 might be their child as she is not attributed to either Catherine Solomons or to Hannah Levy by Cemetery Scribes. This would narrow the gap from 12 years to 8 years.

So now, if we reinstate the Aaron Aarons who died in 1838 (so born C. 1789) as Catherine Crawcour's husband, it still looks very doubtful that he could have been Aaron Aarons' (born C.1767) son. So, could he be the son of one of Aaron Aarons senior's brothers instead? This explanation would avoid the problem of Aaron Aarons senior having another wife before Catherine Solomons and would also avoid the problem of Aaron Aarons senior being too young to have fathered Elizabeth Aron. It would, however, mean that Aaron Aarons junior's father would have to have been born before 1767 and we have no birth dates for any of the other children of Jacob Hague and, of course, no information on any children they might have had other than Hena, daughter of Zvi. Not very much to go on then!

Let's hope we can turn up something more somewhere otherwise we'll have hit a complete dead end.

Steve

phillip

06-01-2010, 8:36 PM

Steve
I have been re-looking at the 1857 trial of Henry Anderson alias Barnett Aaron alias Henry Barnett alias Moses Aaron alias William Barnett and others. One of the witnesses in the trial confirmed that Henry Anderson was Barnett Aaron and convicted under that name in 1843. The trial witnesses also confirmed Barnett had been in gaol 'a great many times' and a figure of 7-8 was given. In addition the trial gave Henry Anderson as age 23 making him born in 1834 and not about 1828 as given in the 1841 census. Importantly, his mother Sarah Catharine Aaron said her son '.. has worked at the dentist's profession'.
Other witnesses said Barnett was a surgeon dentist and ivory teeth maker and had lived at 6 Grace's Alley Wellclose Square for some years but was also involved in selling rings/tickets etc

The 1841 census rounded down ages by 5 years for those age 15+ but the recorder was required to note an accurate age for those younger. This age was of course dependant on who gave the information.

I still think that Sarah Catharine Aaron is Catherine ( Kitty) Aaron nee Crawcour and Barnett Aaron alias Henry Anderson is her son not least because of the dental profession link to the Crawcour lines and Catherine recorded as dentist in 1851 census.
However, there is another interesting point and that is the speculation that a Sarah Crawcour ( daughter of Samuel Crawcour 1748-1816 and therefore a sister to Catherine) married Godfrey Levy/Levy Godfrey which raises the question why would Samuel Crawcour name two daughters Sarah.
Sarah is a Hebrew name rather than Catherine and in the 1857 trial Sarah Catharine Aaron was under oath ( it's a pity the trial did not record what oath she swore e.g. Jewish or Christian). So, if Sarah is Catherine Crawcour why did she use the first name Sarah if that was the same first name as her sister. This of course pre-supposes that Godfrey Levy did marry a Sarah Crawcour and we have no confirmed record of that.
This research is throwing up more questions than answers!
Phillip

phillip

07-01-2010, 7:03 AM

Steve
Pat has sent me a copy of the will of Godfrey Levy/Levy Godfrey in which he names his wife as Sarah and links through to the Crawcour family also the full will of Moses Crawcour which again names Catherine ( Kitty) and children of Godfrey Levy. So, unless it is just coincidence that Sarah Catherine Aaron had a son who happened to be a dentist and is not Catherine Crawcour or else chose to adopt the first name Sarah when she was known as Catherine then I am unsure. The name Barnett Aaron is not common and I can't trace him beyond 1841.
Any thoughts?
Phillip

SRFENN

07-01-2010, 12:17 PM

I do not think that the Henry Anderson/Barnett Aaron in the 1857 trial can be our Barnett Aaron because we have the following information on Barnett, son of Catherine:-

1841 census Barnet Aron aged 13 so B.C.1828

1851 census Barnett Aaron aged 23 so B.C.1828 shoe maker

then he cannot be found until 1881 when he was in the Leavesden Asylum

1881 census Barnett Aarons aged 54 so B. C. 1827 hawker

3rd Qtr. 1882 died aged 55 so B. C. 1827 in Leavesden Asylum

At no point does he seem to have been, or likely to have been, a dentist although his mental state could well have been interpreted as criminal or led him to commit criminal offences.

The dates seem to point conclusively to a birth year of 1827 taking into account census dates. The only awkward one being the census of 3rd April 1881 which made him 54 before 6th June (1841 census date) but 1834 cannot possibly be correct.

As for Sarah Crawcour, I have no information on her at all, no birth date and nothing on her possible marriage to Godfrey Levy. Can you give me any further information on this?

Your suggestion of Catherine giving the Jewish name Sarah sounds plausible and, perhaps, for a short time, Barnett might have taken up making false teeth for his mother rather than actually being a dentist proper or, perhaps he was, given that no qualifactions were required at that time???

It is possible, of course, that Henry Anderson might just have given the name Barnett Aaron to mislead the Police and that his mother might have backed him up by stating that she was Sarah Catherine Aaron so the "Sarah" might have been a mistake. There is a Stephen Fenn living in the Enfield area who has been in the local paper a couple of times for causing affrays and once he gave my address to the Police and they came hammering on the front door at 2. a.m. asking for Stephen Fenn and, had I not been there in my pyjamas, they would probably have barged in and smashed the house up. Who they thought they actually had in custody at the time I cannot work out but I don't think a high level of intelligence is a prime qualifaction to be a
policeman any more now than it was in 1857.

The other point is that, if Henry Anderson had been the defendant's real name and various combinations of Barnett and Aaron were aliases, it would tned to confirm that he was using the names of people he knew on the principle that the nearer to the truth a lie is, the easier it is to sustain and was not, in fact, Barnett Aaron at all and, therefore, his mother was not Catherine Aaron either.

Overall I think I would rather rely on information given to the census enumerator rather than to the Court, whether by the defendant, his "mother" or his mates who have turned up as "witnesses".

That's my input. Let me know what you think.

Steve

phillip

07-01-2010, 3:11 PM

Steve
I am keeping an open mind on Barnett- I take all your points but if Sarah Catherine Aaron and Barnett had been telling a pack of lies then there were witnesses at the trial to say so and in the case of Henry Anderson alias Barnett Aaron he was tried and convicted of perjury. No one said Sarah was lying. Unlesshis mother was lying about her surname it is pretty likely that Barnett Aaron and Sarah Catherine Aaron are the real names. We could strike lucky and find details of Barnett if he was in Newgate- I know that there are prison records at Kew which do describe the prisoners in some gaols and can include family info.

I am also not 100% sure that Barnett in 1841 is the same person in the subsequent census irrespective of his approx age. If Henry and Barnett are one in the same and the son of Catherine then he may well have continued using an alias so we would be tracking the wrong Barnett. Also the dentist trade seems too coinidental when linked to Aaron and Crawcour. Sarah Catherine Aaron also seems too coincidental to Catherine Aaron.
Is there a Sarah Catharine Aaron in the 1841/51 etc census- and any Barnett who is born circa 1834? I have no access to the records currently.

As for Sarah Godfrey nee Crawcour the will of Godfrey Levy/Levy Godfrey states-.... Godfrey Levy late of The Strand embroiderer .. I give and bequeath to my dear wife Sarah all my property, plate.......In the presence of Levy Godfrey dated 16 May 1827 Moses Crawcour and Hannah Crawcour

The will of Godfrey Levy Godfrey otherwise Godfrey Levy late of the Strand granted to Sarah Godfrey widow

By the way your name sake and the police- that's a good one. What a coincidence!

This is the longest time I have spent tracking down a Crawcour relative but it's intriguing.
Pity no one who is looking at the posts can offer any inputs
Phillip

SRFENN

07-01-2010, 6:11 PM

I take your point about the dental connection being an unlikely coincidence but, if Barnett Aaron was his real name then it would be Henry Anderson that was the alias and not Barnett Aaron and it is not beyond question that his mother would have lied for him in Court or that the witnesses might well have not known the mother and might not have known the defendant by anything other than his aliases.

I have found no other Barnett Aaron in the censuses of the correct age. I do not have a current subscription to any genealogy site but I had a good look previously and do not believe there are any other candidates. I found no trace of Barnett in 1861 or 1871 so, if he had gone barmy, he probably was not too bothered about completing his census return.

Let's hope that the Newgate records can assist us. However, not all fellons went to Newgate did they? Surely for minor offenses there was the Middlesex House of Detention and the Middlesex House of Correction in Clerkenwell.

I am just not completely happy about the number of times Aaron aarons and members of his family crop up in the Old Bailey records, either as defendants or witnesses. How many times have members of your famuly or mine been witnesses at a trial??? None in my case, nor do I know of anyone who has ever been a witness at any trial so the large number of incidences in the old Bailey records seems out of proportion. Either they were a bunch of rogues or they were closely associated with a bunch of rogues (which I supppose isn't too hard to believe given where they were living at that time).

I also find it a little hard to reconcile trades such as second hand clothes dealer, shoe maker, general dealer and hawker with dentists. It just seems incongruous that some members of the family were, presumably, quite respectable and, presumably, quite well off, dentists and others were selling old clothes from stalls in the street in seedy courts in the rookeries.

One thing's for certain, it is a complicated but interesting story.

Steve

phillip

07-01-2010, 7:52 PM

Steve
If you look on the Old Bailey trials you will see that 2 Crawcour's were transported- Aaron son of David ( David is my 4x great grandfather- dentist) and Samuel Crawcour alias John Smith. They both changed their names from Crawcour and remained in Australia.

As you say the bulk of the families were respectable but given the range of individuals we are researching perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised if they were victims as well as perpertrators.

I will take a look at the British Library Newspapers to see if I can spot any snippets of new info.

There must be records of the early prison records of Barnett Aaron 1843 and earlier with his
alias- the National Archives would show where this data is located.

If Barnett was in prison in 1843 and his age was given as 23 in the 1857 trial he was just a child if born in 1834. That would not surprise me because Samuel Crawcour was 14-15 when he was transported to Bermuda and he had been in trouble prior to that date. He got transported again but this time to Oz for 15 years.
I raise Barnett's age because in the 1857 trial the witness said he was known by his real name of Barnett Aaron in 1843 so I am doubtful if a young boy would give a false name. There would be witnesses to confirm his name.
Take a look at the 1857 trial again and see if there is anything we have missed- can you spot any earlier trials pre 1857 where he appears under different names.
Phillip

bibliojunkie

07-01-2010, 8:05 PM

Pity no one who is looking at the posts can offer any inputs

Steve & Phillip, I've been fascinated by this thread but a) having very little knowledge of Jewish genealogy and sources b) being a relative newbie to this game and c) you seem to be doing very well between the two of you, I've not felt able to contribute. Oh, there was one time when I tried to do a look up but one of you got there before me! :D

Ali

Woo hoo! I managed to get the quote thingy right this time!

SRFENN

07-01-2010, 8:17 PM

Philip, I'll take another look at the trials and let you know but I'm not too optimistic.

Ali, as you can see, we're getting a bit stuck now so any input you can provide could be useful.

Steve

bibliojunkie

07-01-2010, 8:24 PM

Ack! I'll have to go back to p1 and try and get a hook on all this....

Ali

AdeleE

07-01-2010, 8:29 PM

I'll be glad to help too, but I've lost the plot. Can you give us a census reference for a family that you are sure is correct & I can try to go backwards, sideways & forward from there.

Or is there a specific question??

Adele

phillip

08-01-2010, 9:22 AM

Many thanks Adele for your kind offer of help. Steve and I have already looked on the various census for Catherine Aaron and Barnett but as you know the 1851 records are not complete and there are also recorder errors. The more I look at the 1857 trial of Henry Anderson coupled with the early trial 1843 where he was named as Barnett or Barney Aaron plus the reference to him being a surgeon dentist and ivory teeth maker the more I believe that he is the son of Catherine ( Kitty) Aarons nee Crawcour. Perhaps I am speculating too much. But I also note in the 1857 his comments about his mother being old and that would tie in with Catherine dying in 1858 and in her 70s.
I cannot believe that there were other Barnett Aaron who had a trade as a dentist around the same time and in London. Also I am not convinced that the age of 23 is his correct age. I have a range of data on my other relatives which shows several years difference in census data and age of death on death certificates.
The 1857 trial suggests that Barnett was in Newgate and there are other National Archive references to assize records including Bedford and others. I am hoping that there is an earlier 1843 record of Barnett which should give more details. The Newgate records and transportation records I have for two of my relatives gives ages and family details plus a description of the prisoner. The record of Henry Anderson and his 2 year sentence in 1857 should include his prison record and where he served his sentence.

If you are able to review any census records for a Sarah Catharine Aaron with son called Barnett for London/Middlesex that would be a great help. Also I spotted some weeks ago reference to a Barnett Aaron in Bedford Prison- vagrant but have misplaced the note so have no idea if the data was of any relevance.

We do have the 1841 census record which includes Catharine and her family and interestingly notes Catherine as Foreign birth. The Crawcour data I have on her suggests that she was born in England. She also appears in 1851 census with her son Moses.

Any help greatly appreciated.
Phillip

phillip

08-01-2010, 10:18 AM

Adele
In 1841 census Catherine Aaron was at 3 Norwich Court London- clothes shopkeeper; in 1851 she was at York St Newington Lambeth- dentist; in 1858 she died at 3 Clare St Bethnal Green. She was born circa 1785.

In the 1857 trial of Henry Anderson it is interesting his mother and not his father or other family member appears as a witness. Note the dentist occupation of Catherine in 1851 and the occupation of Barnett Aaron/Henry Anderson pre 1857 trial as surgeon dentist- too much of a coincidence bearing in mind that all the Crawcour sons of Samuel were dentists?

I have not checked the location of 6 Grace's Alley Wellclose to Norwich Court.
Any comments very welcome.
Phillip

SRFENN

08-01-2010, 10:56 AM

Still looking at the Old Bailey transcripts but it takes a while. I had a feeling we'd hear from adele again, thanks, your help is much appreciated. Even if Catherine Aaron did call herself Sarah (and I have several examples in my own lines where people have adopted their middle names as their first names or, in two cases, thier middle names as their surnames) and Barnett Aaron alias Henry Anderson was out Barnett Aaron, there is still no reason why he can't be the same Barnett Aaron that ended up in Leavesden Asylum except the age 23 given at the 1857 trial. If this age is wrong and he was actually 30 (& therefore born C. 1827/8) that would make everything fit.

I was interested in the Bedford prison information. If he ended up in Leavesden (near Watford), herts. it is not inconceivable that he could have been in the Beds./Herts. area as a hawker/vagrant between 1859 (after his release from Newgate) until C.1881 when he was in Leavesden. If he were still im Middlesex in 1881 when he was committed to a mental institution he would ahve gone to Friern Barnet or Hanwell and not Leavesden. Try to find your note Phillip, it could be vital. in the nineteenth century there was not much of dividing line between criminal, vagrant and insane so I tend to believe that we are dealing witht he same person in 1851 and 1881 and the reason we can't locate him in between was precisely because he was, either in an instituion of one description or another or, he was a vagrant and didn't have any fixed abode and, thereby, didn't get on any census.

Steve

phillip

08-01-2010, 11:29 AM

Steve
You could well be right on all these points and your thoughts about Barnett make sense. I was looking at so many sites and writing info that I am hard pressed to know where to look. I usually have a note book but on this occasion was writing on sheets - a lesson to be learned.
I have seen a site for Bedford Assize which includes the names of prisoners and date of imprisonment. Good point about the institutions- do all of the pay census sites give access to inmate data?
Phillip

SRFENN

08-01-2010, 12:26 PM

I presume that all genealogy sites have the same census data and, certainly mental institutions, hospitals and workhouses would be included but not sure about prisons. I wonder whether Barnett might have got himself in the workhouse in 1861 or 1871 if he had been a vagrant at the time? There you
are Adele and Ali, if you have current access to censuses, see if you can find
Barnett Aaron (s) in a workhouse or other institution in Middlesex, Hertfordshire or Bedfordshire in 1861 or 1871. He might even have been taken in under one of his aliases???

Steve

phillip

08-01-2010, 3:05 PM

Steve
I found the entry for Barnett AARONS ( Note the s at end of surname) on the Bedfordshire Gov.Uk site- Bedfordshire Gaol and House of Correction. He was age 27 and in gaol 1853 as a Rogue and Vagabond -21 days hard labour.
No data to confirm if he is in fact Barnett Aaron but he would be born circa 1826.
More to ponder.
Phillip

SRFENN

08-01-2010, 5:05 PM

Well done! Seems possible. Consider that, if he was a few ounces short of a pound, he probably didn't know how old he was and the authorities might have just made an estimate but 1826 is closer than 1834. I reckon we might find him elsewhere in some institution or the other as he was obviously a vagrant by this time. If it is the same Barnett as the 1851 census shoe maker, he might have received a bang on the head sometime after March 1851 which affected him thereafter as it does not seem as if he had been born mentally deficient or, presumably, he would have been institutionalised earlier on and could not have become a shoe maker let alone a dentist or ivory teeth maker. Perhaps he got worse as time went by which is why he was finally committed to Leavesden???

There is one other thing to consider and that is that there are a number of mental institutions in south Hertfordshire e.g. Shenley, Napsbury and Harperbury. Not sure when they all opened but, later on, they all came under the control of Middlesex County Council (post 1888) so not sure whether they existed in the 1850s, 60s or 70s. but, if they did, Barnett might have gone from one to the other for short periods, being discharged from one only to be re-admitted to another soon after. Only speculation of course but not out of the question. Casual inmates to such institutions (those not actually insane) tended to stay in the same familiar area where they were known by the institution staff and could request re-admission when they needed to, just as they did with workhouses i.e when work was impossible find and in the cold winter months when they needed shelter more than in the better weather. So, if early April 1861 & 1871 were a bit chilly, we might be lucky?

Steve

Jan1954

08-01-2010, 5:11 PM

So, if early April 1861 & 1871 were a bit chilly, we might be lucky?From the diary of Charles Tiplady in 1861:

April 5 to 12: A week of splendid weather; the first thoroughly fine week for twelve months.

April 8 Monday. The Census of 1861 taken.

1871:

March 16 Tremendous fall of snow; extremely cold and wintry weather. Wild March. (No mention of the weather for April.)

phillip

08-01-2010, 6:19 PM

Steve
Bingo! I have just found a description of BARNETT AARONS in Bedford Gaol- they had his surname mispelt as AAROUS
Here it is: 1853
4 foot 11 inches tall; dark grey eyes; visage oval; pale complexion; unmarried;occupation - SHOEMAKER. Residence Spitalfields London- Education -Read; face a little pock marked; A JEW

Still keeping all options open though about him also being Barnett Aaron son of Catherine

Phillip

phillip

08-01-2010, 6:45 PM

Steve
I would like to see the Newgate Record of 1852 when Barnett Aaron was given 12 mths for assault- if it gives comparable details as that of the Barnett Aarons in Bedford gaol I will have some indication as to his age etc.
It's the dentistry and Sarah Catherine his mother that is niggling me and making me question that Barnett Aarons shoemaker is the son of Catherine/Aaron- if I am wrong so be it. I am not 'buying' the accuracy of the age of the Barnett in the 1857 trial as 23.
Phillip

SRFENN

08-01-2010, 7:11 PM

No, Napsbury, Shenley and Harperbury hospitals all seem to be of much later foundation but Barnett could still have been in the south Herts. area and possibly entered one or more workhouses. He was definitely somwhere between 1851 and 1881.

Steve

SRFENN

09-01-2010, 12:36 PM

Well that's great. It certainly confirms that the Barnett Aaron in Bedford gaol in 1853 is the same one as the shoe maker in the 1851 census even if you are not convinced about him being the same one as the 1841 census or the 1881 census. Personally I believe they are all one and the same person and the son of Catherine Aaron (Crawcour). Whether they are the same person as the one of of the 1857 trial I am not at all certain and as to whether he was actually a surgeon dentist I have serious doubts but he might have been, as I suggested previously, a maker of ivory teeth which, presumably, only required carving to shape and, if he could cut leather for shoes then he could probably carve ivory as well. The trial states him as giving his occupation as "ivory turner" and, later, as " a dentist and ivory teeth maker". the term "dentist" could possibly be construed as working for a dentist (i.e his mother if he was the son of Catherine Aaron) in making false teeth but not actully practising as a dental surgeon.

What the trial transcript seems to be telling us is that the defendant's real name was Henry Barnett Anderson but that he was sometimes known as Henry Barnett. He also gave the aliases of Barnett (Barny) Aaron and Moses Aaron. Remembering that the trial was for perjury and deception, nothing the defendant said can be relied upon for its veracity, nor, I would suggest, anything stated by his "mother". It could be that Henry Anderson knew of the Aaron family and that there was a Barnett Aaron (close to his own name which he could say had been misheard), a Moses Aaron, a Sarah Aaron and a mother called Catherine who was a dentist. Use the names of real people, real occupations and, possibly real addresses and, hopefully, you can deceive the the authorities. Also, to tell the Court that you are a dentist rather than a street hawker, gives the impression of respectability and, therefore, honesty. Both he, and his "mother" seem very keen to get the "dentist's profession" across to the Court and to deny the street hawker identity.

Obviously there was some confusion betweeem No. 6 Wellclose Square and No. 6 Grace's Alley, Wellclose Square which could have been deliberate obfuscation. There is definitely a Grace's Alley off of Wellclose Square just to the north of the Ratcliffe Highway. The people at 6, Wllclose Square might not necessarilly have known who lived in Grace's Alley and, perhaps, Catherine Aaron or Barnett or Moses might have lived there in 1857??? It seems that Henry Barnett Anderson actually lived at 4, Cambridge Heath Road.

The mother's testimony does not seem to ring true either. Surely, if asked whether her son Barnett ever went by the name Moses she would have said "no, Moses is another of my sons". She also said that she "never knew him to have been in prison by that name" but did not deny that he had ever been in prison at all or under any other name. She said that "he lived at No. 6 Grace's Alley, Wellclose Square" but that "it is a good while since I called there". Why say that except to suggest that there might be some confusion on her part as to whether it was the correct address or whether he still actually lived there. If it werre her son and he really did live there she would have, surely, stated that he LIVES, not LIVED, there??? There is no evidence that this person was really the defendant's mother at all or, if she was, that she was, indeed Catherine (or Sarah Catherine) Aaron the dentist. The use of the name Sarah could have been a mistake as they might confused the name of Catherine's daughter and thought it was Catherine's first name???

The alternative scenario woulod be that the defendant really was Barnett Aaron and that, because of his impaired mental condition, he told lies about his name, his address, his occupation and whether he had ever been in prison. In which case he was probably the street hawker/vagrant that the Bedford gaol and 1881 ccensus records state him as being and probably had been in Coldbath Fields seven or eight times as the witnesses testified to. If it was really his mother that testified on his behalf and not just some old lady he had asked to stand in for her, she did not make a very good job of her role of character witness (I'm sure a real mother would have tried a lot harder to defend her son's reputation). She would have been 71 and, possibly going a bit senile and she died the following year. If he had really been Barnett Aaron dentist of 6. Grace's Alley, Wellclose Square, it would not have been too difficult to prove it and to get witnessess to testify to the fact. It all seems very much like a pack of lies (and very poor lies too).

Which leaves us with the following questions;-

1) was Henry Barnett Anderson just an alias ?

2) Did he (or Barnett Aaron) really live at 4, Cambridge Heath Road ?

3) Who actually lived at 6. Grace's Alley, Wellclose Square ?

I have looked all throught he Old Bailey trials and can find no other mention of Henry Anderson, Henry Barnett, Barnett Aaron or Moses Aaron but that is not to say I might not have missed something as I only scanned through it. You mention the fact that it was strange thatit was his mother who was a witness at the trial and not his father or any other family members. His father had died in 1838 and the rest of his family might not have wanted much to do with him if he had been a criminal/vagrant/lunatic. A mother would be the one person who would be likely to stand by him whatever but, as I said before, I think a real mother might have made a more convincing attempt to establish his true identity and good character unless she was not too bright either or losing herself mentally by that time.

We might do well if we could find the Middlesex Sessions records and the Middlesex House of Detention and House of Correction records. No idea how to do that though.

Steve

AdeleE

09-01-2010, 1:10 PM

I've no answers yet. Do either of you have this marriage certificate?

Name: Barnett Aarons
Year: 1846
Quarter: Sept
District: City of London
County: London
Volume: 2
Page: 179

SRFENN

09-01-2010, 1:18 PM

No, any more details?

Steve

AdeleE

09-01-2010, 1:27 PM

No, I saw this indexed on freebmd. Potential spouses on the same page would be Rebecca D'Ancona, Jane Jones, Anne Moses, Caroline Simmons.

SRFENN

09-01-2010, 2:06 PM

He would have only been 18 or 19 in 1846 and the 1851 census shows him as a lodger with the Solomons family in Whitechapel so it seems as if it is not him but thanks for the information anyway.

Steve

phillip

09-01-2010, 5:12 PM

Steve
I read different messages in the 1857 trial so we will have to differ on the interpretation. I do not read Henry Anderson as the original name but Barnett Aaron- of all the names to choose it seems very odd to have that particular name and the dentist and surgeon dentist still is a sticking point. I don't think Barnett Aaron/Barnett Aarons are one in the same but it is down to me to prove it. Also, the trial records are not full ones and I would be interested in visiting Kew to look at other records including Newgate 1852 and the assize record for 1843 when Barnett Aaron was the name he used and claimed to be his original name. Not all Aaron/s surnames are Jewish but many are so why would he choose such a surname in 1843 and be tried under it. I doubt if his mother lied about her name- why would she - it could have been contested for example by Moses Aaron and the court and also it matches the 1843 surname.
The Crawcour family were very well known and Moses,Abraham, Isaac, David and Barnett Crawcour brothers of Catherine were well respected. Barnett helped establish the Norwich synagogue. They would not want a nephew such as Barnett bringing the families into disrespect.I think that the changes of alias were part of the deception of Barnett to prevent him being identified in subsequent trials and receiving a stricter sentence.

Once the snow clears I am going to come to London and hopefully you and I can track the Aaron/Aarons down. As I said before I do know that there are Hyamson records on these surnames and we could discover more if there is data on the Aarons/Crawcour line.
Phillip

SRFENN

09-01-2010, 7:21 PM

The trial transcript is not at all clear as to who is speaking to whom but, whether the defendant was Henry Barnett Anderson or Barnett Aaron, he was clearly telling a pack of lies and, as his "mother" backed him up as to his name, address and occupation, she must have been lying as well. If not, he was Barnett Aaron surgeon dentist of No. 6, Grace's Alley Wellclose Square and not a street hawker and ticket tout, had never been in Coldbath Fields prison and was given two years in Newgate for perjury unjustly and all the policemen, prison warders and other witnesses were lying about his identity. Why???

As fir aliases, why does anyone choose any particular name as an alias? Usually one tends to keep as near to one's real name as possible (Barnett Aaron for Henry Barnett Anderson or vice versa) so that it is easier to remember what has been said, or choose the name of someone who actually exists and whom one knows something about so that one's story has a certain credence and, unless checked very thoroughly, might stand a chance of being believed.

Further, if he was actually Barnett Aaron then he was still a street hawker/ticket tout/vagrant and mental case who had been in Coldbath Fields seven or eight times, Bedford gaol once, Newgate for two years and died in Leavesden Asylum. Highly unilkely to have been a surgeon dentist or to have any fixed abode.

Why would his mother lie? Because she was his mother.

The rest of the Aaron family and the Crawcours would not have had much say in the matter if Barnett kept getting himself into trouble. They could either stay right away and try not to get involved or they could all come to Court and say Barnett was a loony and that he should be committed, which is probably what they did eventually.

Looks as if this jury will be unable to reach a unanimous verdict. What do you think Adele and Ali?

Steve

phillip

10-01-2010, 9:38 AM

Steve
I will wait until I see the various records and will reserve any more speculation. I am hoping that the Hyamson and Colyer Ferguson records may tell us about this family. What I do know is that Catherine and her children appear not to be as well placed as the other Crawcour lines and possibly may not have been as well educated. The son of Abraham Crawcour for example became an MD and Professor of Medicine. On the subject of Barney Aaron 1843 he was in trouble for ringing a door bell suggesting his age of 23 in 1857 matches that of a teenager.
I have nothing more to add until I get to London and look at the data.
Phillip

SRFENN

10-01-2010, 10:38 AM

Yes, you're right Phillip, it's all only specualtion and we'll never solve it without some more positivie proof. Good point about the ringing the doorbell though; sounds like he already had some mental trouble early on (which, again, detracts from the possibility of his being a surgeon dentist).

Steve

SRFENN

10-01-2010, 11:08 AM

Actually the ringing the door bell was in 1843 when Barnett would ahve been 15 or 16 and not 23 but, even so, a pretty childish prank at that age and an expensive one for such a silly matter. Times was cetainly 'ard then wasn't they?

Steve

phillip

25-01-2010, 10:45 AM

Steve
There is a record of the trial of Barnett Aaron b abt 1828 on 6 May 1845- this record is in the England and Wales Criminal Registers 1791-1892 - Ancestry Com. I have not looked at the various alias that Barnett went by nor have I subscribed and seen the record.

On the subject of Barnett being a surgeon dentist you need to be aware that any one could have been a surgeon dentist in the early to mid 1800s. There was no requirement to have formal training and that is why following the visit to America in the early 1830s by Moses Crawcour and his nephew Edward the American dentists decided to develop formal dental training. They were worried about loss of business but also about poor dental treatment by unqualified dentists. The same applied to the UK but it was not until much later in the late 1800s that you have formal training for female dentists. For Catherine Aaron nee Crawcour to call herself a dentist in 1851 is very rare for a woman at that date.
I have done further research into dental practices in America and the UK and have found early records which I have shared with a Professor of Dentistry in Georgia USA.
It is for this reason that my interest in Barnett Aaron being a surgeon dentist linked to Catherine Aaron also being a dentist in 1851 is still of interest.Of all the professions/trades why would Barnett Aaron chose to be a surgeon dentist.
The Crawcour children of Samuel and Rebecca were taught by their father but received no formal training in dentistry- that is possibly why some of ceased to be dentists for example Abraham. I have no ideas why Samuel Crawcour became a dentist and apothecary but there is no doubting he was educated because of the original copy of his apothecary records in English and Latin.
Phillip

Ps I am incredibly busy at work so have no current time to come to London but still intend to do so

SRFENN

25-01-2010, 12:23 PM

I wondered what had happened to you Phillip! I understand all you say about dental practice in the mid nineteetn century but it is still extremely hard to reconcile Barnett Aaron being a shoe maker in 1851 and a dentist (qualified or not) in 1857 and then completely disappearing for 24 years until he re-appears in a mental institution in 1881.

If the testimony of Sarah/Catherine in the Old Bailey trial of 1857 is true then it woul seem that Barnett did, indeed, live at 6, Grace's Alley, Wellclose Square in 1857 but he was not there in 1851 or in 1861 censuses. It is also interesting if the Moses Aaron who also testified was Catherine's son that he lived in Chapel Street, Islington in 1857 but, previously (after 1851 census), in Hare Street, Bethnal Green.

Moses married Celia Jonas in 1860 and they lived in Caledonian Road, Barnsbury (Islington). In 1851 Celia Jonas lived in Artillery Street, Bethnal Green which is very close to Hare Street but separated by the Great Eastern railway but, presumably, they must have met there one way or another. It is also possible that Catherine moved with Moses to these addresses as well.
Having got out of the East End by 1857, Moses never went back and lived the rest of his life in the parishes of St. Pancras, Marylebone and Islington.

I should also appreciate any further details of the Levy connection with the Crawcours if you can assist. I have found the 1881 census entry for Sarah Levy (aged 60), her daughter Elizabeth (aged 20) and her two grandsons, Mark (aged 16) and GODFREY (aged 6) at 412, Caledonian Road. It would seem, from the names Sarah and Godfrey, that Sarah could be Godfrey Levy's and Sarah Crawcour's daughter and Godfrey his grandson. I still don't understand how Caterine Crawcour could have been Sarah as well unless she was actually Sarah Catherine (as in the Old Bailey trial) but used the name Catherine and one of her sisters had Sarah as a middle name and used it as her first name. What about Caledonian Road? Did Moses Aaron go to Caledonian Road when he got married because Sarah Levy (his aunty?) lived there and told him there was a place there???

Yes, I know Phillip; it's only specualtion but you have to speculate to accumulate don't you?

Steve

phillip

25-01-2010, 1:40 PM

Steve
I have asked Pat for his help regarding Sarah Levy- he has a lot more data on these lines than me. As you have probably seen I have Jacobs/Hart/Levy/Crawcour relatives and posted on these. Pure coincidence but my great grandfather George Kirby was a fishmonger Caledonian Rd as was his uncle Samuel Stovell from 1850s-1880s.

Still not convinced Barnett shoemaker and Barnett dentist etc all one in the same but could be wrong!

I am going to have to spend some money on records to find out more! Have always taken long shots on the lines most of which have proved correct- we will see. I need to buy Berger 1870-81 to see if we can locate more lines. She was also working on 1881-90 volume- excellent sources for Anglo Jewish genealogists.
Phillip

phillip

25-01-2010, 2:23 PM

Steve
In his will of June 1827 Godfrey Levy/Levy Godfrey named his wife as Sarah Godfrey not Levy so I am not sure if the family used the last name Levy. I will see what Pat says.
Phillip

phillip

25-01-2010, 2:42 PM

Steve
On Cemetery Scribes I have seen the tombstone of Sarah Godfrey/Sarah Levy- she was born 1784 died 1839 - 2 of her children Maria and Emanuel died 1839 although were of different ages- seems as if they died of some disease given all 3 died 1839. Take a look because the name of her husband is Godfrey Levy/Levy Godfrey- if I am right then this is Sarah Crawcour whose daughter Rebecca married Moses Angel.

If Gaby Laws is reading this posting I would welcome your thoughts Gaby.
Phillip

phillip

25-01-2010, 3:08 PM

Steve
Solomon Crawcour took the first name Samuel following the death of his grandfather; my 3x great grandfather Aaron was called Henry after his father's death and I am speculating that Catherine ( Kitty) Aaron nee Crawcour may have done the same on the death of her sister Sarah as an act of rememberance- if the Sarah Godfrey tombstone is Sarah Crawcour. Pat and I had no dob or death for Sarah Godfrey/Levy but the dob of 1784 would fit in with the births of the other Crawcour siblings and place that Sarah only 1 year older than Catherine who was born circa 1785.

Have a think about this and look at the tombstone.
Phillip

Kerrywood

25-01-2010, 3:37 PM

I need to buy Berger 1870-81 to see if we can locate more lines

You or Steve may like to know that Barnet Libraries have two copies of this. One is readily accessible on the open shelves at Hendon, the other is at Edgware. :)

Kerrywood

CemeteryScribes

26-01-2010, 8:05 AM

Hi Phillip,

>tombstone of Sarah Godfrey/Sarah Levy- she was born 1784 died 1839.

Our entry suggests that the inscription says 'wife' of rather than widow of but I'll try and find some time to check it tonight. We have 'wife of' in brackets which means its unclear on the inscription.

The Hebrew inscription gives the husband's Hebrew name as Goetshlik HaLevi and yes he could have used the name Levy GODFREY but I think further proof would be needed.

Interestingly on Synagogue Scribes there is a marriage for Godfrey LEVY in 1810 New Synagogue to Teretsa (no further details known). There are also a couple of marriages for women with family name GODFREY.

One of them Hatty GODFREY marries Abraham JONAS in 1815 Great Synagogue, her father's Hebrew name Eliakim Getshlik SGL. If you go back to Godfrey LEVY his Hebrew name was Eliyakum Goetschlik.

I would be interested to see the will you refer to for Godfrey LEVY, 1827.

phillip

26-01-2010, 10:04 AM

My thanks to both Kerry and Gaby for their help.
Gaby- here is the extract from the will of Godfrey Levy/Levy Godfrey

Godfrey Levy of the Strand embroiderer.." bequeaths to my dear wife Sarah all my property.....for the sole maintenance of my children and herself..."
Levy Godfrey otherwise Godfrey Levy 26 June 1827
Granted to Sarah Godfrey widow.. universal legatee

It looks from the Synagogue records that Godfrey/Levy married twice- Teresata and then Sarah Crawcour.
Nb Moses Crawcour and Hannah Crawcour were witnesses on the will

It looks as if Sarah Godfrey/Levy tombstone is that of Sarah Crawcour unless you think otherwise Gaby

In the will of Moses Crawcour 1858 he lists several properties he owns or leases- he owned 45 Mansell St Goodmansfields and 2 cottages in Northfleet Kent plus had leases on 69 Connaught Terrace Marylebone, 379 Strand, 9 Kings Place Commercial rd, 2 Saint Albans Place Westminster, New Bridge Middx, 65 Prescott St, 8, 9 Suffolk St Commercial Place and

I appreciate your help Gaby not least because of the excellent Cemetery and Synagogue Site records.
Phillip

phillip

26-01-2010, 1:43 PM

Gaby
I take your point regarding the same/similar Hebrew names for Eliakim Getshlik/Eliyakum Goetschlik for the father of Hatty Godfrey m Abraham Jonas 1815; tombstone inscription for husband of Sarah Godfrey/Levy; marriage of Godfrey Levy to Teretsa.
It looks as if Hatty Godfrey was the daughter of a Godfrey Levy/Levy Godfrey but who was her mother if Godfrey Levy/Levy Godfrey married Teretsa in 1810- his Hebrew name is Goetshlik Ha Levi? Similarly, when did Godfrey Levy/Levy Godfrey marry Sarah Crawcour? If Hatty Godfrey is the daughter of Godfrey Levy/Levy Godfrey and she married in 1815 then her dob is going to b circa 1790/5.
The Sarah Levy/Godfrey tombstone gives a dob of 1784 so she is unlikely to have been Hatty's mother and neither would Teretsa if she married in 1810

Have we got the correct Godfrey Levy/Levy Godfrey? Do you agree with the points above or has my maths let me down?

Steve - what do you think?
Phillip

SRFENN

26-01-2010, 6:43 PM

I can't see how Hatty Godfrey can be Gadfrey Levy/Levy Godfre's daughter if he married Terestsa in 1810 and she married Abraham Jonas in 1815 unless the marriage to Teretsa was the second marriage and the marriage to Sarah Crawcour was earlier and Hatty is the daughter of that marriage but, given the 1839 burial for Sarah, this cannot be possible.

What evidence is there for Sarah Crawcour marrying Godfrey Levy. All I have seen is that Godfrey Levy was married to Sarah but nothing to say she was Sarah Crawcour. In fact, I haven't actually seen any evidence to show that there was a Sarah Crawcour at all.

All the uses of different names is very confusing but, as for Catherine Aaron (Crawcour) being Sarah Catherine Aaron, it is only the 1857 trial that states this name and both the 1841 & 1851 censuses, as well as her death registration, are in the name of Catherine Aaron. Similarly, although Godfrey Levy is referred to as Levy Godfrey in the Cemetery Scribes and Synagogue Scribes information and in his will, his wife Sarah's death is registered as Sarah Levy (not Godfrey) March quarter 1839 Whitechapel Reg. Dist. so, perhaps, he just called himself Levy Godfrey but it was not official. Can't find any record of his death so, presumably, he must have died before June 1837.

You mention a Hannah Crawcour as a witness to Godfrey's will; who was she and what relationship did she have to the Crawcours?

The more I look at all this the more I think that all the Jews in Middlesex from the mid 18th to the mid 19th century intermarried with each other, possibly for the sole purpose of confusing researchers in 2010.

Steve

SRFENN

26-01-2010, 6:52 PM

I believe I have made a mistake. The Sarah Godfrey who died March quarter 1839 in Whitechapel Reg. District must be incorrect. I see from Cemetery Scribes that the death of Sarah Godfrey was in December 1839 and there is, indeed, a Sarah Godfrey death in December quarter 1839 in Strand Reg. Dist. which must be her. Sorry about that folks. Still doesn't help much though.

Steve

phillip

26-01-2010, 7:37 PM

Steve
There was a Sarah Crawcour and she did marry Godfrey Levy/Levy Godfrey- I hold several family trees which record her name and they were made by different people over some years-so unless they are all wrong and the will also is wrong ( which it is clearly not given it's a photocopy of the original) I have no reason to doubt their accuracy. Moses Crawcour was her brother and Hannah was his wife which is why they are witnesses on Godfrey Levy's/Levy Godfrey's will.
What we don't know is who is the 'real' Godfrey Levy/Levy Godfrey who appears on the tombstone of Sarah Levy/Godfrey and is this Sarah also Sarah Crawcour- what do you think Gaby bearing in mind the various issues which have been raised.

I also have re-discovered a possible photograph of Kitty- the copy of the photo just has "Great Aunt on Crawcour side with the name Kitty?"- it may or may not be her but if it is she is late 50s-60s and well dressed.
Phillip

phillip

26-01-2010, 7:41 PM

Steve
You need to re-read some of our earlier postings Godfrey Levy/Levy Godfrey died 1827 as you can see from the will extract I posted today- in his will he refers to his 'children' and names Sarah his wife as Sarah Godfrey.
Phillip

SRFENN

26-01-2010, 8:17 PM

I was not saying that anyone was wrong or that Sarah Crawcour did not exist, merely that I have seen nothing to substantiate the fact. When you posted your earlier information on the Crawcour family you mentioned a possible Sarah but had no dates of birth or death and I have seen nothing to actually show that she married Godfrey Levy and, again, no date nor did you mention that Hannah was Moses' wife. I am sure YOU must have evidence on which to base your conclusions but it is hard for others to see the connections without knowing how those conclusions have been arrived at. As for Godfrey actually dying in 1827 you only said the will was dated 1827 and not that was the year he died so I assumed it was the date he wrote it.

By the way, did you find any connection with the Simon Levy/Levy at 5, Russell Court at the same time as Aaron & Hannah Aarons???

You mention on the Crawcour family synopsis posting that Pat has sent you some portraits of Samuel & Rebecca and you also mention on the Catherine aron posting that you also have a photo of "Kitty" (Catherine ?). Would there be any possibility of letting me have copies of these? If so, I'd be extremely grateful.

By the way, I have gone mad and taken out a six month subscription to "find my past" so, if there is any census information you'd like me to look for I'd be happy to oblige.

Steve

phillip

26-01-2010, 8:25 PM

Steve and Gaby
If you look on my Moses Angel posting on this site you will see that I hold the Marriage Cert for Rebecca Godfrey and Moses Angel in 1843.
One of the witnesses at the marriage is David Crawcour and he is my 4x great grandfather. Also, the father of Rebecca Godfrey is named as Godfrey Godfrey deceased.

You are not going to get my Crawcour family attending weddings or being witnesses on Wills unless there is a close family connection!
I suspect Godfrey dropped all aspects of the Levy name for whatever reason probably commercial which is what many Jews did at that period of time.
Next, on the Birth cert of Moses Crawcour Angel in 1849 the mother is Rebecca Angel formerly Godfrey. Note the use of the middle name Crawcour.
There is no doubt in my mind that Sarah Godfrey/Levy is a Crawcour and sister to Moses and David.
Phillip

CemeteryScribes

27-01-2010, 12:14 AM

Hi Phillip,

Thank you for your kind comments regarding CemeteryScribes and SynagogueScribes both Angela and I work very hard running these sites and adding data to them so are always delighted to hear when they have been helpful to researchers. However, in addition to the 'Scribes' I have a full time (non genealogy related) job so my time is limited.

As promised I have checked the tombstone for Sarah and it is really quite eroded in all the places 'we' need to determine more. The Hebrew refers to Sarah as wife not widow but that isn't conclusive. The English that is legible is Sarah beloved ... L(evy) Godfrey. So again not conclusive. Its possible that if you were to visit the cemetery you may be able to catch the stone in a different light and see more.

Much as I would like to give my opinion as you request, on the various questions you have raised it would necessitate me reading several pages of postings and then trying to work from that. Sadly I simply don't have the time.

My gut feel at the moment is that it is a little 'iffy' and needs further proof/data. Perhaps the death cert for Sarah may tell you some more ie who registered her death, her address and that may help tie things up.

The 2 children we have would have been born before the Levy/Godfrey in the will died but he could also be the grandfather who happened to marry a Sarah, rather than this Sarah's husband. If Sarah was left property etc then wouldn't she too have made a will?

I couldn't access the forum for a while this evening so had a quick play on the census and found the following - didn't get a chance to check the address amongst the various postings or whether you already have this info or considered this:

1841 - 103 Strand
Rebecca GODFREY 25 Embroideress
Eliza GODFREY 20 "
Esther " 20 "
Fanny " 15
Joseph " 15
Maurice "15

phillip

27-01-2010, 7:16 AM

You have been excellent in your support Gaby. The address of 103 Strand matches that of Rebecca Godfrey on her marriage certificate to Moses Angel and I see she had the same occupation as her father recorded in his will- embroiderer. I made an error on saying that he was Godfrey Godfrey on Rebecca 's marriage certificate- typed too quickly- he was named as L Godfrey.
The names you have given me for 1841 I will check but this gives more clues.
Many thanks for all your help.
Phillip

phillip

27-01-2010, 7:31 AM

Steve
Godfrey did die in 1827- the will grants Sarah his bequest in 1827- see response also from Gaby and my later reply. The copies of photos I hold you are welcome to- I need to ask Pat for permission since some of them are from original copies held by one of our Australian Crawcour relatives.
We will meet and I will give you the copies if Pat oks.
I think the key problem for Pat and myself is to share all the data we hold easily when other distant relatives become involved. This is for several reasons- we have done most of the research ourselves with some excellent inputs from a small number of distant relatives; the data we hold is now huge and it takes time to re-visit it and even remember what we actually hold; Pat and I started with virtually no data about 8 years ago and have been in regular contact ever since so our research relationship is very close and we share the same understandings which makes it difficult to send 'short cut' replies to others such as through postings. Pat is also intending to write a book on the families and quite rightly has asked that I don't share all of our data until he has done so. Pat also holds copyright on the data he holds so I am synthesing much of what we hold which makes it difficult to send full responses.
With the exception of Pat you have been the only distant relative on the Crawcour side to respond so fully over time and I appreciate that.
Phillip

phillip

27-01-2010, 8:19 AM

Steve
I see from the 1841 census data that Gaby sent that there is no reference to Sarah in the household at 103 Strand- does this suggest she was dead by that date? I will buy the GRO death certs for the 2 Sarah's in 1839
Nb I may have to 'bow out' of postings for a couple of weeks- my work commitments are too high at present plus I am due for a holiday.
Phillip

SRFENN

27-01-2010, 7:05 PM

The Sarah Godfrey who died Dec. qt. 1839 in Strand Reg. Dist. must be the correct one so I shouldn't waste money on the other one and, obviously, she wouldn't appear in 1841 census. I did find another Sarah Godfrey in the Strand Reg. Dist. in the 1841 census age 60 (b. C.1781) ay Holywell Street, St. Clement Danes, Westminster, Middlesex along with Susan Godfrey age 30 and people named Coombes, Johnson, Anderson & Parry.

I fully understand what you say about your data and the potential problems of giving too much away but, for my part, it is hard to relate names I have never heard of before (such as Angel for example) if I do not know what relationship they bear to people I have heard of. However, I am not really interested in people that have no direct relationship to my own lines and, so, it is really only Catherine Crawcour and het forebears that I am concerned with. However, I am interested in the connections between the Crawcours, Aarons and Levy's as this is probablywhere some explanation can be found for the two Aaron Aarons and the link with Russell Court. Any information I receive from you is entirely for my own interest and I can assure you that I have no intention of publishing anything and certainly not of stealing Pat's or your research. My view is that reciprocal exchange of onformation and ideas is mutualy beneficial and I am happy to share my own information with interested parties as I hope they are do to so with me.

I hope Pat is willing to allow me to have copies of the portraits and, if so, please thankk him for me. As I said before, if there is any census info. you want me look up for you, just let me know.

Steve