Can you help unscramble this... Names Claydon,Ballentine,Browning

[stuart_rippon]

I'm researching the Ballentine line of my tree and have a problem with the inconsistancies in the information I have.

The 1871 census has my G G Grandmother Alice margaret Ballentine age 17 b:1854 living in snettisham with three other members of her family. Her sister Jessie aged 20 and Mary Ballentine aged 47 who I think is her mother. The head of Household is William Clayton aged 70. All three women are recorded as a relationship of daughter!!!. Both Mary aged 47 and William 70 are widowed.

The 1881 census has 3 people at home Mary aged 57 as head, William Clayton aged 80 relationship father and Mary J aged 27 daughter and in 1891 Mary aged 67 and Mary J aged 58 are at home as head and daughter. ( NB this looks to make Mary J a twin? to Alice)

Mary the elder one and William are both born in Shouldham - the children all born in Lynn.

My hypothesis is that William is the father of Mary who is the mother of Alice.

I have Alice's Christening on 21 feb 1855 with parents James Downing Balentine and mother Mary Balentine and her birth on 20 Nov 1854 in Lynn. I'm assuming Ballentine was not Mary's maiden name.

Now I hit a real problem - James Downing Balentine is not a common name and I can only find one marriage registered in Dec 1850 for James Downing Ballinten ( note surname difference) to I believe Mary Ann Browning in Downham and a Death of James Downing Ballintin in 1855 in Kings Lynn.

I'm at a loss as to how to tie these together as the information appears to be in conflict. Alice is definately my GGGrandmother and the downing middle name is so unusual that I cannot see that I have the wrong parent in James above even with the variation in surname spelling.

If anyone can look up the Ballentines in Lynn in the '51 census that may fix James but I guess is unlilely to find the children or Mary's maiden name. If William was in the census That might help I suppose.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how I might unravel this mess? - BTW I now live in hampshire so local lookups involve 4-5 hours travelling each way.

I hope someone can help

Regards
Stuart

[Brian]

Well I hope this starts you off on unravelling them all but its not very helpful.

Census 1851 HO107/1829/141/15
Purfleet St King's Lynn (St Margarets)

James Ballentine H M 27 M Ballast Master b Lynn
Mary Ballentine W M 27 F b Shouldham Thorpe

There were no other Ballentines

I cannot see a William Clayton in the index (I used the LDS Three Counties 1851 CD)

Brian

[Brian]

Silly me I just had a thought and lo:

Census 1851 HO107/1829/260/7
11 Norfolk St Kings Lynn (St Margarets)

John Jackson H M 39 M Spirit merchant b Scotland (is this the link)
and his family (no James Downing so definitely not his son)
Mary Claydon Serv U 19 F House Maid b Shouldham

Ho107/1830/150/3
Shouldham Thorpe
William Claydon H W 50 M Farmer b Shouldham Thorpe
Judith D U 22 F b Shouldham Thorpe
Robert S U 20 M b Shouldham Thorpe

[Brian]

Census 1841 HO107/755/4 Shouldham Thorpe

Fol 6 p 5 Mary Claydon 15 F S

Fol 6 p 6

Judith Claydon 70
William Claydon 40 Ag lab
Judith Claydon 12
Robert Claydon 10

Fol 7 p 7 Alice Claydon 8

same page different household

Robert Claydon 25 Ag lab
Susan Claydon 25
Mary Claydon 6
John Claydon 4
William Claydon 2
p8 Robert Claydon 7 months

Fol10 p 13
William Claydon 25 M S

There are no other Claydons in Shouldham and there are no Claytons at all.

[Peter Goodey]

"I have Alice's Christening on 21 feb 1855 with parents James Downing Balentine and mother Mary Balentine and her birth on 20 Nov 1854 in Lynn. I'm assuming Ballentine was not Mary's maiden name"


Where did you get this date of birth from? If you have the birth certificate, I don't understand why you have to make assumptions about the mother's maiden name.

[Geoffers]

The 1871 census has my G G Grandmother Alice margaret Ballentine age 17 b:1854 living in snettisham with..Mary Ballentine aged 47 who I think is her mother.....I have Alice's Christening on 21 feb 1855 with parents James Downing Balentine and mother Mary Balentine and her birth on 20 Nov 1854 in Lynn. I'm assuming Ballentine was not Mary's maiden name.To echo Peter's thoughts, the Birth certificate should solve your problem. In case you don't have it, this entry from the GRO births index looks quite promising:

Dec 1854, BALLINTINE Alice Margaret, K.Lynn Vol 4b Page 317

Note that there is another entry which may somehow be related:
Mar 1855 BALLINTIN John, K.Lynn, Vol 4b Page 952.

Finally, in addition to the census entires already kindly provided, there is one other from 1851 - it would be nice to think that this might relate to Alice's grandma, but that idea would need some work.......
HO107/1829 f290 p32
Queen Street, Kings Lynn
Willm. LEASK, Head, Mar, 33, Master Mariner & To Publican, ----Aberdeen Scotland
Margaret LEASK, Wife, Mar, 26, ---, Lynn-Norfolk
John B. LEASK, Son, -, 1, ---, Lynn-Norfolk
Margaret BALLINTEN, Widw, Wid, 71, Landed Proprietor, Lynn-Norfolk
Sarah Ann GAY, Serv, -, 25, House Servant, Lynn-Norfolk


Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[stuart_rippon]

That's a great start thanks. I don't have the birth certificate ( might be able to get Alice's from some of the other members of the family) - you are right that might be a help - DOB's from census and BMD data and from work does on the ground by other members of the family. I think that looks like the right William Clayton but it still does not tie up the mystory of the marriage to Mary - can't say I'm surprised at that as they were married in 1850 and that is my problem until I can identify the marriage I'm not sure how I could get a certificate to confirm the details.

The only marriage I have is James Downing Ballintin to Mary Ann Browning in Downham in 1850. I'm ok with Alice my GGGranma she was already well researched when we looked at other bits of the tree but it's sorting Mary that is my issue.

The link to William Clayton looks so strong as Mary's Father but why is the marriage then to Mary Ann Browning - it just does not make sense. I can't see how to sort this unless I can identify the marriage - I could request the certificate for the marriage to Browning I guess. Any other suggestions on how to get to Mary Ballentines maiden name.

I'll read the full details of all that has been sent tonight and try to fit it together and see if it gives me any more insight

I'm still a little new at this so my apologies if some of these question seem a little daft.

[Peter Goodey]

Not daft at all. Just don't make a rod for your own back by trying to guess the answers from insufficient data. I'd concentrate on sorting out the main family and this Clayton guy will slip into place. Probably :) .

When you've got the certificates for the current lot, you'll probably be into parish registers. Perhaps I could draw to your attention that the Society of Genealogists library has a reasonable run of Kings Lynn registers on microfilm - possibly easier for you to get to than Norfolk!

A final thought - and I hesitate to mention this one - but the IGI has a marriage between a Jeremiah BALLENTINE and Pleasance DOWNING on 25 Oct 1821 at St Nicholas, Kings Lynn.

This entry is a "form submitted by a member of the LDS Church" and therefore should be treated with as much caution as my predictions for tomorrow afternoon's racing! However, when you've got the parish registers in front of you, it might be worth flicking to 1821.

[Geoffers]

I don't have the birth certificate ( might be able to get Alice's from some of the other members of the family) - you are right that might be a help - The only marriage I have is James Downing Ballintin to Mary Ann Browning in Downham in 1850. I'm ok with Alice my GGGranma she was already well researched when we looked at other bits of the tree but it's sorting Mary that is my issue.
This is why obtaining Alice's birth certificate should help as it will record the names of both parents - plus the mother's maiden name. If that then ties in with the above details, you should be able to proceed with orderng the marriage certificate.

Geoffers

[stuart_rippon]

Thank you all for your help - I have made some real progress under your guidance.

I have James' Downing Ballentines / Mary Claydon's marriage certificate and father is Jeramiah Ballentine - that seems to tie in well with the unsubstantiated IGI record of Jeremiah and Pleasance Downing. There are a group of Downing marriages in Lynn in St Nicholas' at around the same time but I can't find births of any of them yet.

Although I haved a Marious (AKA Marius) Downing born 1792 in Kings lynn (died I think 1856 ref 4b/223 but the scan is VERY BAD so hard to read index just has M*)

I also have a reference to Elizabeth Downing married to Edward Scott 13 Sep 1810 in Lynn that seems to validate the IGI entry for her. Most interestingly one of her son's was James Marious Scott.

Finally on this side I have James Downing or Dawning m:Sarah Pitts 17 Feb 1787 Again at St Nicholas'

So my working hypothasis for now is that Elizabeth stands a good chance of being the sister of Pleasance Downing and that Marias then James could be father and grand father - I guess I need parish registers to sort this out any suggestions?

On the Claydon side there are also some additional questions. On the marriage certificate I have Mary father William of Shouldham Thorpe and interestingly Judith Claydon as a witness. In the '51 census which Brian kindly provided we have William at home with I guess daughter Judith age 22.

I have also found a grave stone in Shouldham Thorpe for William Claydon and Judith although unfortunately the dates are impossible to fully read - both are 18XX ( they both look like they could be 185X or 188X) and William's age looked to be 71. There is a BMD reference for 1850 to the death of Judith Clayden I guess that might be her. I may try taking some brassrubbing gear next time and see if I can get a better look at the stone.

I wonder who the Judith aged 70 is in the 1841 is it possible that this is a transcription error as she would be too old to have been the mother of the children, failing that I guess she is likely to be the grandmother but a Judith as paternal grandmother Judith as Mother and Judith and daughter sounds a little coincidental - Brian would you mind looking at the older Judith again just to check for me.


Thanks for all you help and good hunting

[Pam Downes]

I may try taking some brassrubbing gear next time and see if I can get a better look at the stone.


:eek: NO. You could do lot of damage.
There has already been a thread about cleaning gravestones.
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4375

And I knew that I had seen a similar query on a mailing list some time ago.
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=ESSEX-UK
Including speech marks, type in "are there any copies kept"
and select 2003.

'Answers' 3, 4 , 5, and 6 are the main ones to read.

Pam Downes

[stuart_rippon]

Pam - I understand about cleaning the stone - would not do that it would only take the face off the soft sandstone anyway. What I was thinking of trying was getting an impression of the stone using a soft wax stick that you use for brass rubbing and some cartridge paper - that was any remaining indentations should become visible without causing any damage. I took Photo's of course but even with enhancement had little joy in getting any further. I suspect however that the dates have already eroded beyong recognition.

[Pam Downes]

Hi Stuart,

Reply number 5 from the URL advises against rubbing too.
What I have thought of since is - piece of kitchen roll held against stone (you might need someone to hold said piece) then 'spritz' with water from one of those hand-held sprays you do indoor plants with. Hopefully as kitchen roll gets wet it would stick to stone and lumps and bumps might show more clearly. Also try holding up something like an opened-out newspaper to cause the lumps and bumps to be in shadow.
Rain water would be best, then probably a still bottled water, followed by local tap water ('cause of the fluoride).

Pam Downes

[Geoffers]

I took Photo's of course but even with enhancement had little joy in getting any further. I suspect however that the dates have already eroded beyong recognition.
You may have done so already, but in case not - have you tried photographing the stone either early morning or late evening when the sun is low, but bright. The shadows cast by engraved names and dates sometimes makes the text a little clearer then. If you go on a dull day, take a good torch with you and try shining this at different angles for the same effect. The down side is that you may get strange looks from others visiting the churchyard.

Geoffers