Woodfine Smith & Charlotte Smith

[babygirl101]

I've come across a marriage on the Notts FHS CD for these on 23.5.1853 at Blidworth, Nottinghamshire, does anyone know anything about them.

I've briefly looked at census returns but no-one obviously jumps out. I'd love to know who they were as I have another rellie who was born in Blidworth, a- Mary Smith in 1843.

Can anyone help please?

Thanks
BG :)

[Astoria]

Looks like this could be the marriage

June 1853 Mansfield 7b 64
Woodfine SMITH and Charlotte SMITH

[Marie C..]

There are a handful of Woodpines on LDS. One is a Woodpine.
1881 census(Stoke on Trent) Woodpine smith aged 6 son of Joseph Smith, a tin man and brazier, and wife Catherine . All born Longton Staffs.
Woodfine Smith bap. 23 may 1858 Carsington Derby, son of Frederick and Constance Smith.
Frolesworth Leics, Moses Smith son of Woodfine Smith and susanna 24 Feb 1840.
(Woodfine and Susanna married Frolesworth leics 1839.
In Froleworth there are two odd named Smiths Holled 17 June 1701 and Nightly 31 Aug 1704(son of John and An.)
Then there is a Woodfine Smith married to Sarah Bozwell 05 Sept 1811 in Hillmorton Rugby.
So your fellow could have come from any one of these places or elsewhere.... lots of Smiths there. M

[Marie C..]

I liked that Gypsy site Astoria. Yes I agree with you... they seemed to change their names as and when... some were really odd. I have Smiths too from Warks all with gypsy names like Ann, George, Mary! but they stayed put.
The Woodfine (could it originally have been Woodbine(honeysuckle?)name continues I see with a baby, born Notts, given that as middle name a few years back.M

[JoanneM]

I've come across a marriage on the Notts FHS CD for these on 23.5.1853 at Blidworth, Nottinghamshire, does anyone know anything about them.

I've briefly looked at census returns but no-one obviously jumps out. I'd love to know who they were as I have another rellie who was born in Blidworth, a- Mary Smith in 1843.

Can anyone help please?

Thanks
BG :)

Oh, funny you should ask this as I got the parish register marriage entry for this last week. :D

23rd May 1853 Woodfine Smith, 21, bachelor, basket maker, Blidworth, father Zachariah Smith chair bottomer to Charlotte Smith, 22, spinster, Blidworth, father Bathwell Smith chair bottomer, witnesses Christopher and Harriet Smith.

They are on the 1861 census at Budworth in Cheshire, Charlotte's forename isn't given, but her birthplace is Bicker in Lincolnshire, which would make this baptism hers:

Charlotte Smith d/o Matthew and Charlotte Smith, 1 Jul 1832, Bicker Lincs

It seems that Matthew sometimes goes by the name Barthwell/Bathwell, so there are also these baptisms:

Christopher Smith s/o Bathwell and Charlotte Smith, 23 Feb 1834, Brothertoft, Lincs
Constance Smith d/o Matthew and Charlotte Smith, 20 Mar 1836, Caythorpe Lincs
Harriette Smith d/o Matthew and Charlotte Smith, 13 May 1838, Quarrington Lincs
Sarah Smith d/o Barthwell and Charlotte Smith, 28 May 1843, Scredington Lincs

(Christopher and Harriet above possibly being the witnesses at the wedding).

Not sure yet who Woodfine's father Zachariah Smith is, but re. the marriage at Hillmorton Warks in 1811 between Woodfine Smith and Sarah Bozwell, there is also a baptism at Hillmorton in 1828 for Matthew Smith s/o Zachariah which may be linked.

Jo.:)

[babygirl101]

Many thanks for all your help with this one - long haul - you've no idea lol, I already have many of the Smith clan, but this one's eluding me right now. You're right with the marriage details, Blidworth would have come under Mansfield for registration, it's where I'm from originally so it looks right. I think the next step is going to have to be to take the plunge and add another certificate to my ever growing collection. I've tried a search on here and I'm the only one that pops up right now and I don't have the solution hehe!!

Marie

Yes, I rather suspect he will have had a connection with Woodfine who married Sarah Boswell at some stage in the proceedings, just not sure where/when or how.

I'll order the cetificate and let you all know what it tells us. Why can't I have a family with an unusual surname instead of unusual first names!!

BG :)

[JoanneM]

BG - don't order the cert - see my post on page 1. :)

[babygirl101]

BG - don't order the cert - see my post on page 1. :)

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! just pressed send Jo - oh well tooo late now, I'll have my own copy lol !! will read your reply now

BG :)

[babygirl101]

Thanks for this Jo, right now I suspect I've just wasted my money on this cert as I can't see any connection with my lot |banghead|. It might become clearer once I get the other certificate, well, fingers crossed!!

I've just looked on IGI for Zachariah Smith, but as you say the only one that pops up is Matthew, none of it seems relevant right now, but that's often the case. Given that there's no mothers name given, it's a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack - well I'll plod on.

BG :)

[babygirl101]

I think I've found Matthew/Bathwell/Barthwell in 1861. If I'm right he's using the name Bartholomew (chair bottomer) for a change, good grief how confusing. He's with wifey Charlotte and daughter Sarah b. 1843, Screckington Lincs. The family appear with a whole group of Grays. Bart's from Grimscote. Northants and Charlotte from Weedon Barracks, Northants. We have progress, now to ifnd them on IGI.

Ref 2477/23/39

BG :)

[JoanneM]

That does look like him, doesn't it?

Harriet born Quarrington, wife of Abraham Gray is likely the Harriet Smith d/o Matthew and Charlotte Smith bapt. 1838 in Quarrington.

Jo.

[babygirl101]

We have progress, Jo.

BG :)

[JoanneM]

Abraham Gray bapt. 26th July 1835 at South Kyme s/o Charles and Elizabeth Gray, travelling gipsy.

[babygirl101]

Think I've found him on IGI. Barthwell Smith 21st June 1795, Cold Higham, which is a mile from Grimscote. Parents are Thomas & Nancy (now that's a new name to me!!)

BG :)

[JoanneM]

Think I've found him on IGI. Barthwell Smith 21st June 1795, Cold Higham, which is a mile from Grimscote. Parents are Thomas & Nancy (now that's a new name to me!!)

BG :)

There's an IGI submitted entry for Brownetta Smith bapt 1794 at Cold Higham, parents Thomas and Nancy, who is supposed to marry Wisdom Smith. :confused:

[babygirl101]

Good grief, we're not heading back to Wisdom again are we!!!!????

BG

[JoanneM]

I don't know. :confused:

There doesn't seem to be a verified entry for Brownetta, so is it a mistranscribed Bathwell, or are they two different children?

Jo.

[babygirl101]

There's 2 entries for her:-

1) 9/2/1794
2) 7/2/1794

next entry is Barthwells 21.6.1795

BG :)

[babygirl101]

I think they're brother and sister, to be honest.

BG :)

[JoanneM]

I thought brother and sister but the Barthwell bapt in 1795 is female too. :confused:

There is a female 'Bythwell' as I found a baptism in Nettleham Lincs in 1844 for Violet d/o Robert and Bythwell Smith of Wymondham Leics gipsy, but if this is the same person she'd be close on 50 in 1844.

The parish registers for Cold Higham don't seem to be online anywhere.

Jo.

[babygirl101]

Oh for goodness sake - how could I have missed that .. and it was going soooo well lol

BG |oopsredfa

[JoanneM]

That 1861 entry you found with Bartholomew Smith - there is a Joseph and Mary Gray on there. In 1849, Grantham area there is a marriage for Joseph Gray and on the same page is a Mary Ann Newberry.

Now I think this is going back to Wisdom Smith. There is a baptism in 1830 at Welby Lincs for Mary Ann Newbury d/o Alice Newbury. There is a baptism for Alice as a d/o Thomas and Elizabeth Newbury who had a daughter Hannah who married Wisdom Smith born 1819 and a son William who married Abigail Smith d/o Wisdom Smith born 1796 Twyford Leics and Maria Elliott.

Looking again at the Barthwell Smith baptism, with Cold Higham and Grimscote being so close, it's got to be him, hasn't it? I've got a Silvester Charlotte who is listed on the baptism as a male (well, you would assume so, wouldn't you with Silvester as a name?) Turned out to be a female when I found her marriage.

Jo. :)

[babygirl101]

To be honest I think it's an error, given that he was aka Batholomew and that eureka, up pops Brownetta too??? It would be interesting to see the original though, not quite sure how that's going to be possible unless I post a message on Northants section.

BG :)

[Astoria]

Might you find something here girls?

http://www.parishchest.com/

Watching this one with interest |wave|

[babygirl101]

Thanks for all this info Ann, I'll follow this through and see where it leads, as usual, probably to more questions lol.

BG :)

[babygirl101]

Might you find something here girls?

http://www.parishchest.com/

Watching this one with interest |wave|

Thanks for the reminder about this.

BG :)

[JoanneM]

I would say this though, It would be well worth you considering buying some of T. Lees books, he researched all these families. I bought Lee Family Tree Vol2 and Smith Gypsy Genealogies back in the early 1990s but I understand they are all updated now with additional information. .romanygenes. he has several variations of Woodfine Smith listed with details on their connections even in the early works.

Ann, I've seen these books mentioned but there are a few volumes, and I wasn't sure if they would include the Midlands Smiths I was interested in.

Could you let me know, does the Smith Gypsy Genealogies include much on the Smiths we've been chatting about? Might have to put one of these books on my 'wanted' list.

Jo. :)

[Ann65]

The Smith Gypsy Genealogies would be the one you want. Im afraid my copy is from the early 1990s, so what is in the updated version I couldnt say. You could write and ask him though, Im sure he would be willing to advise on the best book for your research. Good Luck

[JoanneM]

Thanks Ann. :)

[babygirl101]

Well, I've looked everywhere for Woodfine and Charlotte before and after 1861 but no luck. They've either died or had a 'makeover' as there's no trace as far as I can see.

On the other hand, Matthew (b.1828 Hillmorton s/o Zachariah) who I suspect was Woodfine's brother, appears with his wife Caroline and offspring :-

Drusilla 1851 (bap 1851, Chesterfield, Derbys)
Agnes/Edna 1854 (she was bap as Agnes in Cheshire in 1854)
Edward 1857
Thomas 1860
James 1865.

They had another child who James who died shortly after birth in 1850.

1851 :- HO107. Piece 2008. Folio 172. Page 13
1861 :- RG9. Piece 2595. Folio 97. Page 16
1871 :- RG10. Piece 3696. Folio 61. Page: 2
1881 :- RG11. Piece 3521. Folio 34. Page: 22

I now need to find Caroline. All I know is that she was born 1825 - 1828, but she kept changing her PoB - Northants, Cheshire or Oxfordshire?? confusing or what?? Any suggestions welcome on that one. I've starting looking for her but no luck so far.


BG :)

[JoanneM]

Well, I've looked everywhere for Woodfine and Charlotte before and after 1861 but no luck. They've either died or had a 'makeover' as there's no trace as far as I can see.

Just done a quick 'google' on Woodfine, and it looks like he might have gone to the USA. I've turned up a Woodfin Smith, born 1833, in Colarado in 1900 - says he immigrated in 1862.

His wife is Adaline born in England in 1845 - she immigrated in 1860 and they have been married 30 years, so presumably Charlotte died overseas if this is him.

It's on Donald Locke's website.

http://lockeroots.home.comcast.net/~lockeroots/GypsyCensusRecords.html

Jo. :)

[babygirl101]

Morning Jo

Thanks for that, it would certainly explain why we can't find them post 1861, but it's a bit confusing or am I missing something??. It would only work if Charlotte died shortly after the 1861 census, Woodfine then left the UK for some reason and was married immediately to this Adaline who left the UK in 1860??? something doesn't quite add up there

BG :confused:

[JoanneM]

Morning BG :),

If Woodfin(e) and Adaline had been married 30 yrs in 1900 they must have married c.1870'ish.

If Woodfine left for America c.1862 then presumably Charlotte did too? :confused:

So she could have died prior to 1870, and then he married Adaline who was already out there.

I've never traced American records before. Presumably we ought to be able to find something more on them if they were there for 40 odd years (at least)?

None of which is helping to find Caroline, which was your original question. ;)

Jo.

[JoanneM]

There's a Woodfine Smith shown on A***y on the 'UK Incoming Passenger Lists 1878-1960' arriving at Liverpool, but my subscription doesn't let me view the details.

[JoanneM]

I now need to find Caroline. All I know is that she was born 1825 - 1828, but she kept changing her PoB - Northants, Cheshire or Oxfordshire?? confusing or what?? Any suggestions welcome on that one. I've starting looking for her but no luck so far.


BG :)

I wonder if the fact that there is a Caroline Booth aged 11 with them in 1851 is relevant? :confused:

Her relationship is servant, which is a bit odd. She's too old to be a daughter of Caroline's, and can't be a sister as they have the same name?

Does it point to Caroline being a Booth, though?

Such a lot of questions! :D

Jo. :)

[babygirl101]

There's a Woodfine Smith shown on A***y on the 'UK Incoming Passenger Lists 1878-1960' arriving at Liverpool, but my subscription doesn't let me view the details.

I've just tried that one too and my subs. doesn't include that either.

Caroline could quite easily be a Booth and the way my day's going it highly likely - I've had a morning of finding Claytons and Booths - none intentionally though. I'll investigate that idea some more and let you know what I find.

Many thanks

BG :)

[patsy62]

this is for babydoll101
this may help then again it might confuse. I have been looking for my ancestor from England. my great grandfather was named woodfine Smith,
I was looking for Woodvine Smith, don't know when he came to America,
but I know he had a son named Matthew, and Matthew married charolette cooper.they both were born here. They were my grandparents.
I have very little info. on them, my cousin is going to try and get more info from my aunt, she is 93. maby we can get more info.
Woodfine's wife was named Armenia, dont know her maiden name.
hope I didn't really confuse you, you have helped me some
will post more when I it. thanks . patsy from usa

[babygirl101]

I've found out that the Woodfine who returned to the UK was not the same one. This one appears to have been born c1882 and was a labourer. He came to the UK on board the Carmania which docked in Liverpool on 20th Jan 1913, his occupation was given as labourer and he appears to have been travelling alone. Doesn't the unusual first name indicate that he was likely to be related to Woodfine and Adaline?

The site you gave me Jo, gives Woodfine b. 1833 and Adaline also from UK, born 1845 which means there should be a record of her here on the 1851 census, but I haven't found her so far, no real surprise there lol.

That site also names their children as -
Walter b 1870
Matthew 1881
Arthur 1885 and Albiny 1892.
plus 2 grandchildren, another Woodfine 1894 and Dessey 1897

The Matthew would tie in with that Patsy has said and would imply that at least Matthew, stayed in the US. Again, the grandchild Woodfine is too young to be the one who returned to the UK.

I've searched the 1880 US census for the family but no luck. I did however, find one family, but I'm 99% sure its not them, but they did have a son born in Kentucky 1870 - Walter which matches the information from the website. If it's not them, then where did they disappear to in 1880?? This lot appear to have been very good at avoiding detection.

Sorry, as always more questions than answers. I'll keep working on it though.

BG :)

[Ann65]

hmmm ok small recap

1851 In Tents, Cartledge Lane, Leek, Stfs
Matthew Smith 22 Hillmoreton Wks
Caroline Smith 26 Nobottle Nthants
Caroline Booth 11 Servant Not Known
\
Edward Smith 1825 Dusen (Duston) Nthants
Versey Smith 1827 Dusen Nthants
\
Elizabeth Smith 1809 Not Known
Gilderia Smith (m) 1831 Churchover Wks
Toddey Smith (m) wife (of Gilderia) 1827 Not Known
Frederick Smith 1838 Watford Wks
James Smith 1844 Teachbrook (Bishops Tachbrook) Wks
Tracey Smith 1846 Stalentwood Chs.

From this I discovered Edward Smith is s/o Edward & Elizabeth, baptised at Duston 11.11.1827. , Elizabeth evidently being the Elizabeth on census.
James Smith was baptised 25.08.1839 Bishops Tachbrook Wks , s/o the same.

Matthew Smith is plainly the Matthew c.10.05.1828 at Hillmorton, Wks, s/o Zachariah Smith.

Moving on:

1861 With Caravans, Acton Bridge Road, Stretton, Ches
Matthew Smith 33 Illmorton Wks
(Caroline) wife 33 Newbattle Nthants
(Drusella) deaf n dumb daughter 9 Withington Dby
(Agnes/Ednor) deaf n dumb daughter 6 Pickmere Ches
(Edward) son 4 Cuiderlamer Chs
(James) son 1 Plunbley Chs
\
Frederick Smith 23 wanfoder Nthants
(Constance) wife 25 Fulbeck, Lincs
daughter 5 Higher Whitley Chs
son 3 Brassington Dby
Son 5mo Famley Dby
Servant 15 Not Known
\
Woodfine Smith 30 Long Buckby Nthants
(Charlotte) wife 29 Bicker, Lincs
\
John Burrows (age unreadable) Ag Lab, Daresbury Chs.

Drusilla Smith d/o Matthew & Caroline c.08.10.1851 Chesterfield Dby
Agnes Smith d/o same c.07.05.1854 "Cheshire" only description on IGI
James c.18.01.1850 Wingerworth Dby, d.26.01.1850

Woodfine Smith c.23.05.1858 Carsington Dby, s/o Frederick Smith & Constance - the very same Frederick who is listed in 1851 and 1861.

Finally, 1871
Matthew Smith 47 Hillmorton Wks
Caroline Smith 44 Siddington Chs
Drusella Smith 20 Chesterfield Dby (deaf n dumb)
Ednor Smith 17 Phunley Chs (deaf n dumb)
Edward Smith 14 Altrincham Ches
James Smith 6 Morley Ches.

Now Matthew Smith and Woodfine were both sons of Zachariah Smith. Matthew married an as yet unknown Caroline, and Woodfine married Charlotte Smith d/o Bathwell aka Matthew.

Edward Smith & Elizabeth had the Frederick who travelled with Matthew and this Frederick marries a Constance. The age seems a bit off but Bathwell/Matthew Smith had a Constance... and whoever they were the relationship to Woodfine seems closer because they had a child of the same name.

So its possible that We are discussing a family of brothers:

Zachariah Smith who had Matthew and Woodfine
Woodfine Smith who married Sarah Boswell in 1811 at Hillmorton
Edward Smith who married Elizabeth and had Edward and Frederick amongst others.
And Bathwell aka Matthew Smith, who had Constance Charlotte Christopher Harriett Sarah Henry and Mary Ann.
And if that is accurate, they are children of Thomas & Nancy according to Bathwells baptism, and he did indeed have a sister Brownetta/Brownette:

Theodosia Smith c.23.08.1816 d/o Wisdom & Brownette, Gypsies, at Sth Luffenham, Rutland.

[Ann65]

So on a whim I followed Edward the younger around a bit.

In 1861 he turns up in a van, Dethwick Moor, Belper, Derbyshire.

Edward Smith 35 Basket Maker Durston Nthants
Vasvolloway Smith 34 Hawker Branston Leic
Matilda Smith 11 Sotherton Chs
Eliza Smith 7 Plumley Chs
Sanders Smith 3 Hounsfield Dby
Sarah Smith 11 mths Dethwick Dby

with him, in a tent, were:
Thomas Twigg 22 Gipsey
Maturia or Naturia Clayton 32 Gipsey Derbyshire
Mary Ann Clayton 10 Melton Mowbray Leic
John Clayton 7 Tibshelf Dby
Coriliena Clayton 5 Dethwick Dby
Francis Clayton 1 Tansley Dby

I also had a look for a place something like Nobottle in Northants - its a tiny place abt 2 miles further out of Northampton than Duston, which is on the western edge of the city.

[Ann65]

oh just found another thing:

Woodfine Smith & Sarah had a son Thomas b.21.02.1810 c.28.05.1810 Rothersthorpe Nthants.

[patsy62]

Ann65
ann this is patsy62, thank you for your reply,
Woodfine Smith is my great grandfather. my grandfather Matthew Smith,
had 2 brothers named Walter and Authur.you have been a very big help to my family. we are trying to get more info. from my aunt Armenia, my dad's name was Nelson, he had 2 brothers , Tom and Henry, 2 sisters, named Armenia and Lelia. When I get more info I will post it. I thank you so much for this info. thank Patsy62|wave|

[Ann65]

Patsy HI and Im guessing but I think being in the US u maybe dont have resource to same info as us in UK, and vice versa. So as much info as any of us can give in that respect will be totally helpful in this case.

[babygirl101]

I think I may have found the missing Caroline, w/o Matthew. There's a Caroline c.22.6.1830 at Brington, Northamptonshire. Parents Elizabeth and Edward, NFA, wanderers, occupation bakset makers. This would make her the sister of Frederick and Edward and explain why they were travelling together.

I'm still trying to find Edward's wife - Versey/Vasvolloway. She doesn't seem to be listed under those names anywhere, the closest I've found on IGI is a Vashti b. 16.11.1828, Priors Harwick Warks, but that's very much a shot in the dark.

I've found 2 of their children on IGI:-

Saunders 16.4.1858, Holmesfield, Derby, mother Vas Voluvy
Eliza (Betsey) 7.5.1854, Cheshrie, mother Vasoolooy

BG :)

[Ann65]

omg - so if Caroline is their sister, then Matthew belongs to someone else (probably not too far removed knowing our lot!) well done BG keep up the good work!

[babygirl101]

I've found Elizabeth in 1861 with her son James and daughter Tracey Ann in Sutton, Runcorn - RG9, 2597,16,26. Elizabeth now says she was born in 1793 rather than 1809, so she's aged quite a bit between the census returns, but the children's ages are about right.

BG :)

[Ann65]

Mornin BG - I was just poncing about on A******* wondering about Versey/Vasvolloway etc - now theres nowt new to report about her, BUT I did click on the family pedigree search as well as historical records search, and there is a Vesse Vashti Smith on there d/o Moses & Lucretia who would have been abt a generation earlier than our girl, so Im wondering if this is the kind of name that they were actually trying to record??

[babygirl101]

Yes, I've got details for her, but Moses & Lucretia also have another daughter Teresa Ann c1800 according to IGI, who marries Joseph Smith and they have a daughter, Vashti. What was interesting me was that Edward & Elizabeth also have a daughter named Tracey Ann, the one who appears with Elizabeth in 1861; I just wondered if this use of the same/similar names had some significance in linking together families -I could be going completely off at a tangent here though, so I don't want to lead anyone astray, it's pure speculation, I've absolutely NO evidence to support the theory ... yet.!!


BG :)

[Ann65]

exactly what I was thinking - and as you say we are in the realm of pure speculation at the moment, but it certainly is worth looking into, I think.

[JoanneM]

this is for babydoll101
this may help then again it might confuse. I have been looking for my ancestor from England. my great grandfather was named woodfine Smith,
I was looking for Woodvine Smith, don't know when he came to America,
but I know he had a son named Matthew, and Matthew married charolette cooper.they both were born here. They were my grandparents.
I have very little info. on them, my cousin is going to try and get more info from my aunt, she is 93. maby we can get more info.
Woodfine's wife was named Armenia, dont know her maiden name.
hope I didn't really confuse you, you have helped me some
will post more when I it. thanks . patsy from usa

Just found this on the familysearch pilot site:

Mathew Smith
Died 20 Dec 1935, Smithville, Bastrop, Texas
Age at death 55 yrs 1 month 10 days
Birth date 11 Nov 1880
Married – wife Sharlet Smith
Father – Woodfine Smith
Occupation Stove Repair Man
Residence Corpus Christi, Texas
Buried 22 Dec 1935

Woodfine Smith
Died 9 Nov 1935 Tuskegee, Macon, Alabama
Age at death 30 yrs 10 months
Married – wife Julia Smith

Jo. :)

[JoanneM]

Also on the pilot site, just realised you can view the original image of the 1900 Eagle Colorado census with Woodfine and his children on.

[patsy62]

Ann65
Thanks for all the info.we were up against a brick wall,untill I stumbled up on the British Genealogy, and found you ladys. thank you so much, Now we have to put 2&2 together, it will be a problem, We don't know where they were all buried, the age of their deaths. My grandfather was born in Lockhart Texas,don't know what year (yet) but he is buried in Smithville Texas.
Smithville TX. was suposed to be named after one of our ancestors. Don't know who. A FRANK SMITH, never hurd of him. we are still working on all this. will post more when I can thanks ALOT...;...PATSY

[JoanneM]

So on a whim I followed Edward the younger around a bit.

In 1861 he turns up in a van, Dethwick Moor, Belper, Derbyshire.

Edward Smith 35 Basket Maker Durston Nthants
Vasvolloway Smith 34 Hawker Branston Leic
Matilda Smith 11 Sotherton Chs
Eliza Smith 7 Plumley Chs
Sanders Smith 3 Hounsfield Dby
Sarah Smith 11 mths Dethwick Dby

with him, in a tent, were:
Thomas Twigg 22 Gipsey
Maturia or Naturia Clayton 32 Gipsey Derbyshire
Mary Ann Clayton 10 Melton Mowbray Leic
John Clayton 7 Tibshelf Dby
Coriliena Clayton 5 Dethwick Dby
Francis Clayton 1 Tansley Dby

I also had a look for a place something like Nobottle in Northants - its a tiny place abt 2 miles further out of Northampton than Duston, which is on the western edge of the city.

Knew I'd seen Thomas Twigg somewhere before. :)

He's on the 1871 along with Beachanna Bell, who was Beecheeny Clayton d/o Francis and Ann Clayton, bapt 1844 at Hammeringham Lincs same day as Dennis s/o Israel and Eliza Smith.

Looking at other children of Francis and Ann Clayton there is an entry on the IGI for Vasvolia Clayton bapt 23 Sep 1828 at Sharnford, Leics.

Jo.

[JoanneM]

I'm liking the pilot site on familysearch :D.

Just found Matilda d/o Edward and Vasha Smith, Siddington, basket maker, April 20th 1851, Siddington, Cheshire (you can view the image of the baptism from the parish registers and from the BTs :))

Jo.

[Ann65]

AHA! Well done Jo - VERY interesting!!

[cherylstonebrid]

Possible Birth Reg from BMD for Saunders/Sanders?

June quarter 1858 Chesterfield 7b 541 Sarnder Smith

This is the only thing I have found today that seems any use for anything ;(

[mongojoby]

Having stumbled across this thread, after a google search on Barthwell Smith I thought I would post to say hi and thanks. I am very interested in finding out all I can about Barthwell's family as he appears to be the likely father of my ancestor Mary Ann Smith (abt 1850).

To have found out Charlotte's marriage, and possibly even Constance's too, when I have spent ages looking for those two along with Christopher (without any success) really is great.

Regards, Jo

[Ann65]

Youre welcome Jo :) please feel free to join in and add anything you think might be useful :)

[JoanneM]

Hi Jo, from another Jo. :)

Do we have a son named Albert for Bathwell?

I found this marriage yesterday in the Boothby Graffoe parish registers.

18 Oct 1875 Albert Smith, full age, widower, of Navenby, father Bathwell Smith deceased to Anne Maria Tindall, full age, spinster, of Navenby, father Thomas Tindall labourer, witnesses were Thomas Tindall and Charles Priestly.

He's on the 1881, 1891 and 1901 at Pointon, and I've found him in 1871 at Navenby as an Alfred with his first wife.

From the Lincolnshire 1837+ marriage index website the first marriage seems to be at Navenby 24 Jun 1866 to Mary Ann Betsy Donson, with Bathwell being transcribed as Barthold (it's in the Lincoln rural spreadsheet).

http://s10.freefronthost.com/mi/index.html

Can't find Albert prior to 1871 though. He's claiming a birth of c.1843-1847 at either Barrowby or Eagle from the info on the census.

Jo. :)

[mongojoby]

Hi Jo and Hi (again) Ann.

Haven't heard of an Albert before, but sounds promising.

The only confirmed siblings I have are the ones you have already mentioned:

Charlotte Smith d/o Matthew and Charlotte Smith, 1 Jul 1832, Bicker Lincs
Christopher Smith s/o Bathwell and Charlotte Smith, 23 Feb 1834, Brothertoft, Lincs
Constance Smith d/o Matthew and Charlotte Smith, 20 Mar 1836, Caythorpe Lincs
(All three 'Cs' appear to be lodging in Red Lion Street, Spalding in 1851, as Hawkers of Tapes and Cotton, all with pob as Donington)
Harriette Smith d/o Matthew and Charlotte Smith, 13 May 1838, Quarrington Lincs (informant on Charlotte's death certificate)
Sarah Smith d/o Barthwell and Charlotte Smith, 28 May 1843, Scredington Lincs (informant on Barthwell's death certficiate)

plus
Henry Smith think abt 1842 (various children with Sarah and Harriet and also other Gray relatives on different censues). On the two censues he appears on (1871 & 1881) his place of birth is given as Eagle and then Carlton. Unfortunatly his age is nowhere near consistent (based on the later census his dob would be 1848), but when his death is registered in 1882, the age is consistent with 1842.

The links to my Mary Ann are more circumstanial (sorry, I should have put her birth date at around 1847-49, and her pob is, aside from one mention of Braceby, given as Eagle). Her father is named as what looks like Barkwell Smith, Horse Dealer on her 2nd marriage and I have been informed by another researcher that on the 1st he is Barkwell Smith, deceased Basket maker. Charlotte Smith is visting her in 1871 and someone from her 2nd husband's family goes on to marry into Harriet's Gray family.

I got very excited when you mentioned Albert's 1st wedding, as one of the witnesses at my Mary Ann Smith's first wedding to John Coy (which doesn't appear on the Lincolnshire spreadsheet, possibly because the wedding took place in a registry office) was a Betsy Donson. However this wedding took place in 1867 so can't be the same person, although there may be family connection.

Although this could be a bit of a red herring, with Smith being such a common name, I think it is worth mentioning that the other witness was Sarah Lockey (nee SMITH) so there might be a family connection there.

In 1861 Sarah Lockey (23, mar, Anwick) is in North Kyme, Lincs with her parents William Smith (65, General Labourer, Branston, Lincs) and Mary 62 (Bigbook, Rutland) and son William V(?) (4, North Kyme). In the 1871 she is again in North Kyme with her son and still described as married, but is this time also as a General Hawker. There is also a visitor, Mary Smith (72, mar, North Kyme), who presumably is her mother.

Out of interest, where is Albert in 1871?

Best wishes, Jo

[JoanneM]

I got very excited when you mentioned Albert's 1st wedding, as one of the witnesses at my Mary Ann Smith's first wedding to John Coy (which doesn't appear on the Lincolnshire spreadsheet, possibly because the wedding took place in a registry office) was a Betsy Donson. However this wedding took place in 1867 so can't be the same person, although there may be family connection.

Hmm, there can't be many Betsy Donson's about, surely? I'll check the 1866 Navenby marriage out next time I'm at the records office and let you know what info is on that. I'll also have a look to see if I can find Albert's baptism at either Barrowby or Eagle.


Out of interest, where is Albert in 1871?

He's in Navenby, but is down as Alfred Smith, Piece: 3364; Folio: 9; Page: 10. If you want the transcription just shout. I think the 14 yr old James Donson on that entry who is son-in-law to Albert/Alfred is really bro-in-law (from looking at the entry for Mary A. B. Donson in 1861).

Jo. :)

[Ann65]

In 1861 Sarah Lockey (23, mar, Anwick) is in North Kyme, Lincs with her parents William Smith (65, General Labourer, Branston, Lincs)

This interests me greatly cos my William was b.cir 1795 Coleorton Leic (claimed not verified) and he married an Ann. Now I have found another William Smith & Ann of Leic who have kids in places like Griffydam who do not appear to belong to my own branch of the family. So there must have been at least two Williams about of comparable age and poss more.....

[mongojoby]

Glad I could give you some new information for you to look into Ann, after all the help you have given me the last few years!!!

I look forward to hearing if it leads anywhere.

[babygirl101]

Not sure if this has been posted before, but the 1881 census shows Charlotte (c1805), now widowed living with what appears to be her married daughter Harriett Grey. Harriett's PoB and age are consistent with the information on IGI. (RG11, 3221, 42, 24).

I've looked everywhere for Albert/Alfred in 1851 and 1861, as by rights he should be with his parents, but no trace of him. Charlotte and Bartholomew are together in 1861 (RG9,2477,23,39) with their youngest, Sarah, so surely it would make sense for Albert to be with them too, yet another one gone awol ???

BG :)

[Ann65]

Aye, its been said before - heaven only knows which thread tho - It was that particular census which made me believe Bathwell/Batholomew also went by the name of Matthew as Charlotte is quite clearly the Charlotte b at Weedon Barracks! Harriet IS their daughter, and she did indeed marry Abraham Gray. (and she is buried at N Kyme!).


Regarding Alfred - do not forget the likelihood of him travelling with extended family rather than close family - or indeed the possibility of a total complete name change!!

I found Elias Gray b.cir 1844 as Walter Hearn on one census, only identifiable by the fact that his daughter Mary was consistently born 1869 Halesowen!. They never made it easy!!

[JoanneM]

Hi Jo, from another Jo. :)

Do we have a son named Albert for Bathwell?

I found this marriage yesterday in the Boothby Graffoe parish registers.

18 Oct 1875 Albert Smith, full age, widower, of Navenby, father Bathwell Smith deceased to Anne Maria Tindall, full age, spinster, of Navenby, father Thomas Tindall labourer, witnesses were Thomas Tindall and Charles Priestly.

He's on the 1881, 1891 and 1901 at Pointon, and I've found him in 1871 at Navenby as an Alfred with his first wife.

From the Lincolnshire 1837+ marriage index website the first marriage seems to be at Navenby 24 Jun 1866 to Mary Ann Betsy Donson, with Bathwell being transcribed as Barthold (it's in the Lincoln rural spreadsheet).

http://s10.freefronthost.com/mi/index.html

Can't find Albert prior to 1871 though. He's claiming a birth of c.1843-1847 at either Barrowby or Eagle from the info on the census.

Jo. :)

Well Albert/Alfred wasn't baptised at either Barrowby or Eagle.

Did find the following in Navenby:

24 Jun 1866 marriage of Albert Smith, full age, bachelor, labourer of Navenby, father Barthold Smith deceased to Mary Ann Betsy Donson, 19, spinster of Navenby, father James Donson labourer, witnesses James and Sarah Donson.

22 Oct 1866 burial of Wisdom Smith, Navenby, aged 50 years

1 Nov 1874 baptism of Robert Henry s/o Alfred and Mary Ann Betsy Smith, Navenby, labourer (born 14 Aug 1874)

4 Jan 1875 burial of Mary Ann Betsy Smith, Navenby, aged 24 years
4 Jan 1875 burial of Robert Henry Smith, Navenby, aged 4 months :(

There was also a burial 21 Dec 1867 for Charlotte Gray aged 86 years - I wasn't sure if she was one of the Gray's we've been looking at?

Jo. :)

[Ann65]

Betcha 100 quid (what do not have) that is indeed Charlotte Gray nee SMITH wife of Bathwell.

[mongojoby]

Betcha 100 quid (what do not have) that is indeed Charlotte Gray nee SMITH wife of Bathwell.

Sorry Ann, but this has confused me a bit. Is there a Bathwell Gray floating about too?

Will post the details of Barthwell and Charlotte Smith's death certificates anyway, as may come in use at some point (I thought I had already sent you copies, but would be happy to send them if you want).


Charlotte Smith, died 3/11/1889, North Kyme. Aged 86. Widow of Barthwell Smith, Horse Dealer
The mark of Harriet Gray, daughter, present at death, North Kyme.

Buried North Kyme (have picture of headstone)


Barthwell Smith, died 21/11/1861, Navenby. Aged 71. (Something) Chair Bottomer- Gypsy. The mark of Sarah Smith, present at death, Navenby.

Buried Navenby 25 Nov 1861 Barthwell SMITH Aged 72(http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LIN/Navenby/navenby_register.txt)

Jo

[JoanneM]

I wasn't sure if she was connected or not, but I've just checked the 1861 census, and Charlotte Gray aged 81 is in Navenby, wife of Charles Gray of Meldreth Cambridgeshire. So is this burial that Charlotte?

Jo.

[JoanneM]

To be honest I think it's an error, given that he was aka Batholomew and that eureka, up pops Brownetta too??? It would be interesting to see the original though, not quite sure how that's going to be possible unless I post a message on Northants section.

BG :)

These baptisms are on freereg now - no other information in them, though.

[babygirl101]

Thanks for that, Jo, as you say, it's not telling us anything in addition to what we already know, sadly

BG :)

[JoanneM]

From freereg:

Cottingham Northamptonshire - 25 Nov 1821 - Mary Ann d/o Bathwell and Eleanor Smith, gipsies.

Same Bathwell? :confused:

Jo.

[babygirl101]

Quite possibly, if so, I've found another possible daughter on IGI, Elizabeth, d/o Barthwell and Ellen (possibly short for Eleanor?) 13.1.1820, Thornton Leicestershire.

BG :)

[JoanneM]

I wonder how many more of his children are waiting to be found? There's a big gap between these two and his earliest known child with Charlotte - 1832 isn't it?


(possibly short for Eleanor?)

Almost certainly I'd have though. My Eleanor Charlotte was baptised Helena and then interchanged between Ellen and Eleanor as the mood suited her.

Jo. :)

[mongojoby]

From freereg:

Cottingham Northamptonshire - 25 Nov 1821 - Mary Ann d/o Bathwell and Eleanor Smith, gipsies.

Same Bathwell? :confused:

Jo.


That's interesting, IF that is the same Barthwell and that Mary Ann lived, it would rule out my Mary Ann being Barthwell and Charlotte's daughter.

With Barthwell being 10 plus years older then Charlotte, it would certainly make sense if he had another wife and these were his children too. It is also obviously a very uncommon name too, aside from his grandson (Henry's son) the only other one I have come across is this baptism record on the LDS:

Barthwell, son of Lavina Smith, on 14 APR 1824 Nailstone, Leicester, England (also one fro Bathniel to Lavina Smith on same day).

[JoanneM]

That's interesting, IF that is the same Barthwell and that Mary Ann lived, it would rule out my Mary Ann being Barthwell and Charlotte's daughter.

I know, I did think that when I posted. I'd like to find out what happened to the Barthwell born 1824. I suppose it's not beyond the realm of possibility that he's also having kids in Lincolnshire, but is generally going by another name, aka t'other Barthwell being Matthew. :confused:

Jo.

[goz04]

I am helping a fellow in the US trace his roots. He descends from Woodfine and Charlotte (or more likely from Woodfine's second wife Adaline. He comes from Woodfine's son Walter Smith who married Mamie Boyd.

I found the immigration record where he is listed as Woodford Smith. He came to the US on the ship Monarch of the Sea on 9 May 1863. Also on board are his wife Charlotte and cousin Frederick Smith and his wife and children.

Now to my question. I just purchased a copy of a book entitled "The Family Tree of Woodfine Smith" by Jospehine Toombs and available through the Romany and Traveller FHS Famous Romany Family Series: Vol. 5.

The book shows that the Zachariah Smith who was Woodfine's father was the child of Woodfine Smith and Sarah Boswell. This thread shows Zachariah's father as Thomas Smith and mother as Nancy. I do know that the older Woodfine was easily old enough to be Zachariah's father. Nowhere in the book do I find that Thomas and Nancy nor do I find Matthew/Bathwell Smith.

The book lists the children of Woodifne Smith and Sarah Boswell as Edward (married Elizabeth Booth), Zachariah married Ann (possibly Davis), Thomas who they say went to the US, Moses married Susannah Sherriff, Sidney (called Fersideny in census) married Mary Ann Smith, Spiretta (died young), Frederick married Eleanor Boswell and then Mary, Sentenia maried Esau Smith, Trezian married William Clayton, James who emigrated to the US and Louisa who married a gorjer. This was the first I ever heard that someone from the generation before Woodfine went to the US.

They then list the children of Zachariah and Ann as Matthew who married Caroline Smith, Woodfine who married Charlotte and emigrated, William married Susan Butler, Centie married James Johnson, Joseph who married Coralina, Thomas married Beatrice Smith, Jerusalem (who also called himself Reuben Davis) who married Camelia Smith, Charlotte who married a gorjer, and Levina.

Any thoughts?

[Little Egypt]

hi im looking for info on Christopher Smith, he was married to Mary Shaw and then Patince Lovell, i know his children but would like to know of
witch smiths he was? it was said he was cousin of Bartholomew Smith . he was known as one arm Christopher Smith.im new to this forum i have asked about but no luck as yeat? hope someone can help all
the best .

all the census info i have below fingers X.


DETAILS OF HOUSE HOLD ALL B ENGLAND

1901 in a Travelling Caravan (The Inches), Aberdeen
Christopher Smith 69 hd Hawker
Patience Smith 66 wife
John Smith 26 son
Thomas Smith 18 grandson
James Smith 15 grandson


1871 Upholland, Hall Green, Lancashire
(Day Moor ?Band of Gipsies
Christopher Smith 40
Mary Smith 30
Christopher Smith 14
Thomas Smith 12
Clairess Smith 10
Charlot Smith 8
Headgan Smith 6
Henry Smith 4...... Patience dad
Cathrine Smith 3
Thomas Toogood 60
Mary "" wife 50


census 1881 Earsdon Tynemouth Northumberland * Address Sheilds Road 1
lrg van & Cart
Christropher Smith 46 b West Ardsley Yorkshire Licensed Hawker
Mary 43 b Worcestershire
Chrisatropher 22 b Burslem Staffordshire
Tom 22 b Burslem Staffordshire
Cornelius 21 b Tunstal Staffordshire
Charlotte 18 b Stoke Staffordshire
Edingale 17 b Longton Staffordshire
Henry 12 b Eagle lincoln
James 10 b Blackpool lancashsire
John 8 b Barrow in Furness Lancashire
Isabella 4 b Barrow in furness Lancashirer

[Muffy]

Woodfine was probably going to California, to live with or visit his brother, Gilderoy (Roy) Smith, who settled in California and died there. These two men are great-uncles who began and lived in Smithville, Texas, with their father Frederick Smith. Frederick Smith was married to Constance Gray. They had a daughter, Camillia Smith, who was my great-grandma.

[Muffy]

Frederick Smith and several of his sons began Smithville, Texas. The town is close to Beaumont and Victoria, Texas. My gr-grandma, Camillia was Frederick's daughter. She lived in Beaumont, Texas from around 1902 till her death in the mid 50's if I remember correctly. Who is your grandfather? I might have heard of him.

[Muffy]

[QUOTE=babygirl101;285744]I think I may have found the missing Caroline, w/o Matthew. There's a Caroline c.22.6.1830 at Brington, Northamptonshire. Parents Elizabeth and Edward, NFA, wanderers, occupation bakset makers. This would make her the sister of Frederick and Edward and explain why they were travelling together.

I'm still trying to find Edward's wife - Versey/Vasvolloway. She doesn't seem to be listed under those names anywhere, the closest I've found on IGI is a Vashti b. 16.11.1828, Priors Harwick Warks, but that's very much a shot in the dark.

I've found 2 of their children on IGI:-

Saunders 16.4.1858, Holmesfield, Derby, mother Vas Voluvy
Eliza (Betsey) 7.5.1854, Cheshrie, mother Vasoolooy

Edward Smith and Elizabeth Booth's children: (1824- 1845) Rosetta, Edward, Caroline, Guilderoy, James, Trezi, and Frederick, my Gr-Gr-Grandfather.

[Muffy]

Frederick Smith married Constance Gray and came to the USA around 1850-60. They were my Gr-Gr-Grandparents. I have stateside information if anyone is interested.

[Little Egypt]

Frederick Smith married Constance Gray and came to the USA around 1850-60. They were my Gr-Gr-Grandparents. I have stateside information if anyone is interested.

Hi Muffy my grt grt grandparents was Henry and Martha Smith, Henry's father Christopher Smith s/o Bathwell and Martha's father James were full cousins. James was brother to your Frederick both son's of Edward Smith and Elizabeth Booth.

[Tynedale]

Hi, re marriage of Woodfine SMITH and Charlotte SMITH.

Woodfine born Long Buckby Northants c 1830. and Charlotte born Bicker Lin c 1831.
married 19/5/1853 Mansfield Notts.

Woodfine a.k.a. Woodbine is the native honeysuckle!

A.E.S.

[Tynedale]

Well, I've looked everywhere for Woodfine and Charlotte before and after 1861 but no luck. They've either died or had a 'makeover' as there's no trace as far as I can see.

On the other hand, Matthew (b.1828 Hillmorton s/o Zachariah) who I suspect was Woodfine's brother, appears with his wife Caroline and offspring :-

Drusilla 1851 (bap 1851, Chesterfield, Derbys)
Agnes/Edna 1854 (she was bap as Agnes in Cheshire in 1854)
Edward 1857
Thomas 1860
James 1865.

They had another child who James who died shortly after birth in 1850.

1851 :- HO107. Piece 2008. Folio 172. Page 13
1861 :- RG9. Piece 2595. Folio 97. Page 16
1871 :- RG10. Piece 3696. Folio 61. Page: 2
1881 :- RG11. Piece 3521. Folio 34. Page: 22

I now need to find Caroline. All I know is that she was born 1825 - 1828, but she kept changing her PoB - Northants, Cheshire or Oxfordshire?? confusing or what?? Any suggestions welcome on that one. I've starting looking for her but no luck so far.


BG :) Hi, re Caroline: she is listed in family tree of Woodfine Smith (c 1750-1900) by Josephine Tombs.
Caroline, daughter of Edward Smith & Elizabeth Booth. Caroline born Brington Northants 22/6/1830.
Not sure about following info - you will need to check it out.... Died Deddington Oxf. 1881.
A.E.S.

[Tynedale]

oh just found another thing:

Woodfine Smith & Sarah had a son Thomas b.21.02.1810 c.28.05.1810 Rothersthorpe Nthants.

Hi, re Thomas..... according to Josephine Tombs in her book " Family Tree of Woodfine Smith ",
Thomas emigrated to USA while a young man with brother James.

A.E.S.

[Tynedale]

I am helping a fellow in the US trace his roots. He descends from Woodfine and Charlotte (or more likely from Woodfine's second wife Adaline. He comes from Woodfine's son Walter Smith who married Mamie Boyd.

I found the immigration record where he is listed as Woodford Smith. He came to the US on the ship Monarch of the Sea on 9 May 1863. Also on board are his wife Charlotte and cousin Frederick Smith and his wife and children.

Now to my question. I just purchased a copy of a book entitled "The Family Tree of Woodfine Smith" by Jospehine Toombs and available through the Romany and Traveller FHS Famous Romany Family Series: Vol. 5.

The book shows that the Zachariah Smith who was Woodfine's father was the child of Woodfine Smith and Sarah Boswell. This thread shows Zachariah's father as Thomas Smith and mother as Nancy. I do know that the older Woodfine was easily old enough to be Zachariah's father. Nowhere in the book do I find that Thomas and Nancy nor do I find Matthew/Bathwell Smith.

The book lists the children of Woodifne Smith and Sarah Boswell as Edward (married Elizabeth Booth), Zachariah married Ann (possibly Davis), Thomas who they say went to the US, Moses married Susannah Sherriff, Sidney (called Fersideny in census) married Mary Ann Smith, Spiretta (died young), Frederick married Eleanor Boswell and then Mary, Sentenia maried Esau Smith, Trezian married William Clayton, James who emigrated to the US and Louisa who married a gorjer. This was the first I ever heard that someone from the generation before Woodfine went to the US.

They then list the children of Zachariah and Ann as Matthew who married Caroline Smith, Woodfine who married Charlotte and emigrated, William married Susan Butler, Centie married James Johnson, Joseph who married Coralina, Thomas married Beatrice Smith, Jerusalem (who also called himself Reuben Davis) who married Camelia Smith, Charlotte who married a gorjer, and Levina.

Any thoughts?

Tombs book p3 shows children of Nehemiah & Elizabeth. Their son, Woodfine b. 1780 has offspring Zachariah b 1812, Thomas b 1810 and James b ? as brothers! - (Cannot reconcile, quote " this thread shows Zachariah's father as Thomas Smith and mother as Nancy " unquote. On p. 6 it shows Zachariah married to Ann and they have (amongst others) a son Thomas b 1837 and also a son Woodfine b 1830.
It is very difficult but you need to constantly cross-check d.o.b.; p.o.b; etc. etc. to avoid going off at a tangent.

[Tynedale]

Continuing earlier post: Finally, Tombs states on p3 Thomas emigrated to the USA while he was young!
You state a " WOODFORD SMITH " emigrated in 1863 which would make him 53 years of age - NOT A YOUNG MAN!
So, either Woodford is the wrong person, or he was NOT young when he emigrated!