Thomas. L.C.Courts, Edinburgh.

[Valman]

Hi, l wonder if anyone can help find my 2GGrandfathers son Thomas Luke Cooper Courts, he was born in London in 1822, was shown as a Wire Weaver on his marriage certificate in 1845, l can find no mention of him in 1851, but in 1861, l find him living on his own with a housekeeper at 10, Midcommon Close, Edinburgh, 0ccupation still a wire weaver, his wife and family had gone back to London so it seems, there is no mention of him after that. Has anyone any idea how l could find out what happened to him as l haven't much idea about tracing people in Scotland at all.

Thanks very much,

Valman.

[Mutley]

I've had a quick look but to pin him down a bit more, could you tell us the wife's name and any children. I can see the marriage but there are several females on the page. Also did he state where in London he was born at all, North is normally Middlesex and south is normally Surrey.

The marriage was Bethnal Green and that was Middlesex, not transferred to London until 1889.

I can also see another Thomas Courts born about 1825 in England that is roaming around Scotland working in a circus. Are you sure it said wire weaver and not wire walker? (Sorry, only joking ;))

[Valman]

I've had a quick look but to pin him down a bit more, could you tell us the wife's name and any children. I can see the marriage but there are several females on the page. Also did he state where in London he was born at all, North is normally Middlesex and south is normally Surrey.

The marriage was Bethnal Green and that was Middlesex, not transferred to London until 1889.

I can also see another Thomas Courts born about 1825 in England that is roaming around Scotland working in a circus. Are you sure it said wire weaver and not wire walker? (Sorry, only joking ;))

Hi Mutley,

His wife's name was Martha Mary Sparks, and they had daughters Martha born 1846 and Elizabeth Born 1849 both Bethnal Green, and then another daughter Maria l think born in 1851 in Edinburgh. He was born in Aldgate and his marriage certificate definitely says Wire Weaver, lve seen the other Thomas in the census and wondered about that myself lol! He seems to have stayed in Scotland after maybe Maria was born there, l can't find them anywhere during 1851 though, but his wife and daughters moved back to Bethnal Green where she shows herself on the 1861 census as a widow,whereas he is in the census in Scotland! l suppose he could have become a circus act and she didn't approve.

Valman

[Mutley]

There is a Thomas Couch (I don't have Scottish access to check the name) in 1851.
He is born in abt 1823 in England and a Lodger in a household with:
Jane Scott age 48
William Scott age 13
John E K Franklin age 36
William Bryce age 16

Thomas is a Wire Worker. ;)
The address is 140 Pleasance, Edinburgh St. Cuthberts, Midlothian
ED 30 Page 14

[Valman]

There is a Thomas Couch (I don't have Scottish access to check the name) in 1851.
He is born in abt 1823 in England and a Lodger in a household with:
Jane Scott age 48
William Scott age 13
John E K Franklin age 36
William Bryce age 16

Thomas is a Wire Worker. ;)
The address is 140 Pleasance, Edinburgh St. Cuthberts, Midlothian
ED 30 Page 14

Hi again,

that looks a possibility, though l wonder what happened to his wife and daughters not sure what month Maria the 3rd daughter was born. Scottish records are difficult anyway to access, might have to buy some credits on a Scottish site to have a look see if its him or not.

Valman.

[Mutley]

I tried looking for a child Martha in London with mother Martha (no surname) and then looked at each to see if there was a young Elizabeth with them but only saw one and that was a Smith surname. So not likely.

As you say Scotland is harder, though it seems to be easier once you have credits. Sorry, Bethnal Green I can manage, North of Watford and I've had it. ;)

Good Luck

[Sue Mackay]

Sadly civil registration didn't start in Scotland until 1855, so Maria was born just too early. Scotlandspeople does have the old parish registers and I put in a search for a Maria baptised between 1851 and 1853 in Edinburgh or Midlothian, but got no hits. Maybe they had her baptised when they got back to Bethnal Green?

[Mutley]

Good thinking Sue,
Unfortunately, the only birth registration I can see is Maria Courts in Lewisham in June 1852 1d/539.

Searched 1847 - 1853

[Sue Mackay]

Good thinking Sue,
Unfortunately, the only birth registration I can see is Maria Courts in Lewisham in June 1852 1d/539.

Searched 1847 - 1853

No, she was born in ca 1852 in Edinburgh, according to the census, but civil registration didn't start there till three years later. I couldn't find her baptism and wondered if she had been baptised in Bethnal Green, as the wife and kids apparently left hubby in Scotland, but that would be in the parish registers rather than the GRO indexes. Having said that, the Lewisham one might be worth bearing in mind if all else fails.

[Valman]

I tried looking for a child Martha in London with mother Martha (no surname) and then looked at each to see if there was a young Elizabeth with them but only saw one and that was a Smith surname. So not likely.

As you say Scotland is harder, though it seems to be easier once you have credits. Sorry, Bethnal Green I can manage, North of Watford and I've had it. ;)

Good Luck

Hi Mutley,

The family is there in Bethnal Green in 1861 under the surname Court, with Maria shown as being born in 1852, Edinburgh, 1871 still in Bethnal Green under Courts, Maria shown as born in 1854, Bethnal Green just to confuse things even more she has a child Elizabeth 3 months old! in 1881 Martha senior is living with a family in Mile End old Town. So where Maria was born who knows and as for Thomas that is even more of a mystery, so have to definitely buy some credits for Scotland as l think he must have died there.

Thanks for your help,

Val.

[Valman]

Sadly civil registration didn't start in Scotland until 1855, so Maria was born just too early. Scotlandspeople does have the old parish registers and I put in a search for a Maria baptised between 1851 and 1853 in Edinburgh or Midlothian, but got no hits. Maybe they had her baptised when they got back to Bethnal Green?


Hi Sue,

l tried the same thing and found no Maria, lve checked for a Maria born in London before and only came up with the one born in Lewisham, but looking at her can find no Maria shown as being born in Lewisham in the census, only one born in Plumstead then Woolwich which is possible as they aren't that far apart, parents John/Mary Courts,but she seems to have married a John Ginno, her name given as Annie Maria Courts in 1872 Woolwich. So am totally confused now, l think l will just try solve Thomas's whereabouts for now lol!

Val.

[Valman]

No, she was born in ca 1852 in Edinburgh, according to the census, but civil registration didn't start there till three years later. I couldn't find her baptism and wondered if she had been baptised in Bethnal Green, as the wife and kids apparently left hubby in Scotland, but that would be in the parish registers rather than the GRO indexes. Having said that, the Lewisham one might be worth bearing in mind if all else fails.


Hi again Sue,

Maria is a big mystery where she was born who knows? might have to try have a look at the parish registers around Bethnal Green for her, not sure about the Lewisham one she's a mystery too! l shall concentrate on trying to find Thomas l think.

Thanks alot,

Val.

[Sue Mackay]

Hi Mutley,

1871 still in Bethnal Green under Courts, Maria shown as born in 1854, Bethnal Green just to confuse things even more she has a child Elizabeth 3 months old!

One can speculate endlessly on what might have been when it comes to our ancestors, but it's possible that in 1861 Martha gave the information on Maria's place of birth, whereas in 1871 Maria herself gave the information. If she was born in Scotland but brought to London as a baby, then she may well have thought of herself as a Bethnal Green lass. You'll have to keep an open mind and an eye out in both places!

[hughar]

Mid Common Close, where you have Thomas L.C.Courts in 1861, is on the Royal Mile, Edinburgh, just a short distance from the 19c wire works of Smith, Fletcher & Co. in Old Assembly Close. So it is possible that he worked there. And if you check the National Register of Archives you will find that the records of this company 1853-1924 are still in existence, including a wages book which might mention your man.

The Pleasance, an address mentioned in an earlier reply, is also not far from these other two locations.

It's a long shot, but might be worth trying if all else fails.

[Valman]

One can speculate endlessly on what might have been when it comes to our ancestors, but it's possible that in 1861 Martha gave the information on Maria's place of birth, whereas in 1871 Maria herself gave the information. If she was born in Scotland but brought to London as a baby, then she may well have thought of herself as a Bethnal Green lass. You'll have to keep an open mind and an eye out in both places!

Hi Sue,

You probably have got that right, does sound like she came from Scotland as a baby leaving her dad behind there, and probably did think of herself later as being from Bethnal Green.

Val.

[Valman]

Mid Common Close, where you have Thomas L.C.Courts in 1861, is on the Royal Mile, Edinburgh, just a short distance from the 19c wire works of Smith, Fletcher & Co. in Old Assembly Close. So it is possible that he worked there. And if you check the National Register of Archives you will find that the records of this company 1853-1924 are still in existence, including a wages book which might mention your man.

The Pleasance, an address mentioned in an earlier reply, is also not far from these other two locations.

It's a long shot, but might be worth trying if all else fails.

Hi Hughar,

l will have a look for the records of the company and see if there is a mention of him, the person in the 1851 Census look like it could be him as he would probably have been on his own and it could just be a misspelling of his surname.

Thank you for that piece of information its much appreciated,

Val.

[Valman]

Mid Common Close, where you have Thomas L.C.Courts in 1861, is on the Royal Mile, Edinburgh, just a short distance from the 19c wire works of Smith, Fletcher & Co. in Old Assembly Close. So it is possible that he worked there. And if you check the National Register of Archives you will find that the records of this company 1853-1924 are still in existence, including a wages book which might mention your man.

The Pleasance, an address mentioned in an earlier reply, is also not far from these other two locations.

It's a long shot, but might be worth trying if all else fails.


Hi l have now checked to see if the records for Smith Fletcher are in existence, they are unfortunately part of a private collection held in Scotland, l've emailed the archives for Scotland to find out if there is any chance of getting the records checked but don't hold out much hope.

Thank you for the advice though,

Val.

[Valman]

Mid Common Close, where you have Thomas L.C.Courts in 1861, is on the Royal Mile, Edinburgh, just a short distance from the 19c wire works of Smith, Fletcher & Co. in Old Assembly Close. So it is possible that he worked there. And if you check the National Register of Archives you will find that the records of this company 1853-1924 are still in existence, including a wages book which might mention your man.

The Pleasance, an address mentioned in an earlier reply, is also not far from these other two locations.

It's a long shot, but might be worth trying if all else fails.

Hi hughar,

lve just heard from the Scottish archives and seems the papers for this company were part of a collection purchased by a Japanese University but they didn't included any records relating to the wire works so in all probability what was left of the archives which was only a wages book for the years 1894-1910 is presumed destroyed. Unfortunately that puts an end to trying to find Thomas that way.

Val.