Joshua Gray & Delenda Williams

[Ann65]

uhm, considering the amount of work Ive done on the Grays I am quite suprised Ive never nailed this one down.

Joshua Gray was b.cir 1840 in Boston, Lincolnshire, and married Delenda Williams who was baptised as Hartherdelender in 1833 Hornsea Yorks, d/o Job & Elizabeth Williams.

They were married in 1859 Ormskirk District Lancashire (GRO Index). It would be far too easy to just grab the marriage certificate to find out who his father was, and I never do things the easy (expensive) way if theres another way.

Joshua and Delenda went on to have a bundle of chavvies mostly in Southport area Lancs. There was Enoch, John, Nelson, Joshua, Samson and Herbert for sure.

But on the 1881 census they are travelling with some nephews and nieces - Leona, Samson, Wymore and Herbert Brown.

Now I long since felt that this group belonged to Edward Heron and Bella Gray of the Heron Pedigree, Edward being on of Khulai Heron and Dorelia Boswell (d/o Tyso). Isabella Gray was d/o Harriet Williams by John Budd "Jack" Gray (who was transported in 1844). Harriet Williams mother was reputedly Maria Boswell, Dorelias sister, who had a liason with David Williams. It need not be mentioned that Maria Boswell herself also had a relationship with John Budd Gray because that sounds a wee bit freaky and only complicates matters more. Oops I told you.

So I am wondering if the Brown chavvies have turned up with auntie and uncle Josh and Delenda because they were related via the Williams side of the family........ or ....

Was Joshua Gray another child of John Budd Gray by lord only knows who. He had at least 5 "wives" that I know of already, and reputedly 8 children, although I have only ever found seven. So is Joshy the elusive 8th child?

And if anyone has any data on the Williams lineage Id be grateful. Many thanks

Ann x

[Ann65]

well, Josh was s/o John Budd Gray..... :)

[Ann65]

well, Josh was s/o John Budd Gray..... :)

now proven, I found his baptism

Joshua Gray s/o John & Maria c.22.07.1838 Revesby Lincs

His half sister Victoria Gray was baptised at the neighbouring parish of Moorby (d/o John & Harriet) on the same day.

If anything were to prove the much-married John had a liason with both Maria Boswell the mother, and Harriet Williams the daughter, at the same time, this is it!

In both cases the baptisms were described as to gipsys..

[RonOne]

Joshua Gray was b.cir 1840 in Boston, Lincolnshire, and married Delenda Williams who was baptised as Hartherdelender in 1833 Hornsea Yorks, d/o Job & Elizabeth Williams.

They were married in 1859 Ormskirk District Lancashire (GRO Index). It would be far too easy to just grab the marriage certificate to find out who his father was, and I never do things the easy (expensive) way if theres another way.

Hi Ann,

Just incase you still don’t have the marriage details:

(Source: Lancashire Online Parish Clerks)
Marriage: 27 Aug 1859 St James, Birkdale, Lancashire, England
Joshua Gray - (X), 22 Tin Man & Brazier Bachelor of Birkdale
Delenda William - (X), 27 Basket Maker Spinster of Birkdale
Groom's Father: John Gray, Tin Man & Brazier
Bride's Father: Job William, Basket Maker
Witness: William Stewart; Edwd. Johnson
Married by Licence by: B. Swift Incumbant
Register: Marriages 1857 - 1876, Page 25, Entry 50
Source: LDS Film 1657578

Birkdale is just over a mile from Southport and came under the Ormskirk registration district.

[Ann65]

Hi Ann,

Just incase you still don’t have the marriage details:

(Source: Lancashire Online Parish Clerks)
Marriage: 27 Aug 1859 St James, Birkdale, Lancashire, England
Joshua Gray - (X), 22 Tin Man & Brazier Bachelor of Birkdale
Delenda William - (X), 27 Basket Maker Spinster of Birkdale
Groom's Father: John Gray, Tin Man & Brazier
Bride's Father: Job William, Basket Maker
Witness: William Stewart; Edwd. Johnson
Married by Licence by: B. Swift Incumbant
Register: Marriages 1857 - 1876, Page 25, Entry 50
Source: LDS Film 1657578

Birkdale is just over a mile from Southport and came under the Ormskirk registration district.

Many thanks - I knew Josh and Delenda settled in Lancs, but this helps a lot in proving them. x

[RonOne]

Hi Ann,

Same marriage on Family Search pilot:

Groom's Name: Joshua Gray
Groom's Birth Date: 1837
Groom's Age: 22
Bride's Name: Delenda Williams
Bride's Birth Date: 1832
Bride's Age: 27
Marriage Date: 27 Aug 1859
Marriage Place: North Meols Parish, Birkdale, Lancashire, England
Groom's Father's Name: John Gray
Bride's Father's Name: Job Williams
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04110-4
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1657578
Reference Number: v 3354/1/2 p 25
Collection: England Marriages, 1538–1973

Then there is this strange entry also on Family Search Pilot:

Groom's Name: Joshua Gray
Groom's Birth Date: 1838
Groom's Age: 21
Bride's Name: Delenda Williams
Bride's Birth Date: 1838
Bride's Age: 21
Marriage Date: 26 Aug 1859
Marriage Place: Cheshire, England
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I07258-5
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1894980
Collection: England Marriages, 1538–1973

The only marriage I can see on FreeBMD is the Ormskirk one.
But then there is also a christening for a Nelson Gray in Cheshire:

Name: Nelson Gray
Gender: Male
Event Type: Christening
Christening Date: 02 Nov 1863
Christening Place: St. John, Alvanley, Cheshire, England
Father's Name: Joshua Gray
Mother's Name: Delinda Gray
Principal's Residence: Alvanley, Cheshire, England
Image Number: 836
Digital Folder Number: 4019277
Film Number: 2186838
Collection: England, Cheshire Parish Registers, 1538-2000

[dikaccai]

Hi Ann...
I am new to the list and have been working on my maternal side of the family. The bunch is intermarried with the different Romanichal families and I look with great interest at your post.
I have had nothing but trouble trying to trace my GGrandmother, Matilda Boswell's family back to England. They were in the US in Floyd County, Indiana in 1870. Honora Boswell nee Brown? born about 1838 in England, is there with her girls....Caroline, Phillis, Matilda, and Lemonar. Don't know where Festus (her husband) is. I found them in the 1851? (it could be 1861) in England, but nothing more.
On the paternal side of the family....Rebecca Williams is my GGrandmother, who was born in 1829 at Fyler, Yorkshire, England, is the daughter of a Job and Elizabeth Williams. She married William Stewart and they came to America. When they arrived, She had a boy listed with the family named Job Smith. We had always assumed that she had been married before and the boy was from her first marriage to a Job Smith. We found a marriage license for the same; however, I have never been satisfied with this scenario. I think that maybe he was a relative just listed as a son. Can you shed any light on this issue?
Some of our immediate family names are: Smith, Boswell, Stewart, Palmer, Woodruff, Williams and Wharton. Would appreciate any additional info, contacts or info you may want to share? Thanks....Ava in America

[Ann65]

Hi Ann...
I am new to the list and have been working on my maternal side of the family. The bunch is intermarried with the different Romanichal families and I look with great interest at your post.
I have had nothing but trouble trying to trace my GGrandmother, Matilda Boswell's family back to England. They were in the US in Floyd County, Indiana in 1870. Honora Boswell nee Brown? born about 1838 in England, is there with her girls....Caroline, Phillis, Matilda, and Lemonar. Don't know where Festus (her husband) is. I found them in the 1851? (it could be 1861) in England, but nothing more.
On the paternal side of the family....Rebecca Williams is my GGrandmother, who was born in 1829 at Fyler, Yorkshire, England, is the daughter of a Job and Elizabeth Williams. She married William Stewart and they came to America. When they arrived, She had a boy listed with the family named Job Smith. We had always assumed that she had been married before and the boy was from her first marriage to a Job Smith. We found a marriage license for the same; however, I have never been satisfied with this scenario. I think that maybe he was a relative just listed as a son. Can you shed any light on this issue?
Some of our immediate family names are: Smith, Boswell, Stewart, Palmer, Woodruff, Williams and Wharton. Would appreciate any additional info, contacts or info you may want to share? Thanks....Ava in America

Firstly, I can help with Job Williams & Elizabeth - she was Elizabeth Boswell, reputedly d/o Tyso Boswell who died at Tetford Linccolnshire in 1831. I dont have her baptism although I do several other children of his. Job was baptised 1804 Whittington Staffordshire the son of James and Hannah.
Job also had a daughter called Mausolina Hearn c.1822 Dunham, Nottinghamshire by a Priscilla Smith. He also of course had Delenda Williams, baptised as Hartherdelinder in 1833 at Hornsea, Yorkshire, who married Joshua Gray. There was also Alamina c.1835 Hutton Cranswick Yorkshire, and Zealand, c.1826 Ashby By Partney, Lincolnshire.
I have not been able to prove it but believe that Jobs brother was David Williams who married Maria Boswell (Elizabeths sister and Tysos daughter) and they had Harriet Williams, and both Harriet and her mother married John Budd "Jack" Gray. At the same time.
Im going to seperate out the info so that will do for now. Please get in touch :)

[dikaccai]

Firstly, I can help with Job Williams & Elizabeth - she was Elizabeth Boswell, reputedly d/o Tyso Boswell who died at Tetford Linccolnshire in 1831. I dont have her baptism although I do several other children of his. Job was baptised 1804 Whittington Staffordshire the son of James and Hannah.
Job also had a daughter called Mausolina Hearn c.1822 Dunham, Nottinghamshire by a Priscilla Smith. He also of course had Delenda Williams, baptised as Hartherdelinder in 1833 at Hornsea, Yorkshire, who married Joshua Gray. There was also Alamina c.1835 Hutton Cranswick Yorkshire, and Zealand, c.1826 Ashby By Partney, Lincolnshire.
I have not been able to prove it but believe that Jobs brother was David Williams who married Maria Boswell (Elizabeths sister and Tysos daughter) and they had Harriet Williams, and both Harriet and her mother married John Budd "Jack" Gray. At the same time.
Im going to seperate out the info so that will do for now. Please get in touch :)

Oh my!!! The plot thickens! I had always assumed that Elizabeth was Tyso's but didn't have any solid proof other than census names and dates. And I always had a feeling that something wasn't just right with Job. I always thought he was a Smith because he is listed on some of the documents as a Smith. What a surprise with this possibility!
You can reach me at my e-mail address: ihatchbass AT aol DOT com....Look forward to hearing from you!

[Ann65]

Oh my!!! The plot thickens! I had always assumed that Elizabeth was Tyso's but didn't have any solid proof other than census names and dates. And I always had a feeling that something wasn't just right with Job. I always thought he was a Smith because he is listed on some of the documents as a Smith. What a surprise with this possibility!
You can reach me at my e-mail address:

Please delete your email address - I have picked it up now, you wont want the spam accompanied with it on an open forum. Youll hear from mesoon x

[dikaccai]

Thankx....also, what about Richenda Youngs who is travelling with William Stewart family and Grays in 1861 England? Is this Richenda Gray (B. 1866 in Lancashire, Eng) who is the daughter of Joshua and Delinda Gray? If so, what Youngs did she marry?

[geneius]

Hello

Tried to follow this thread and the many 'marriages' of Jack GRAY!

I have come across this book on books.google.co.uk

Gypsies of Britain: an introduction to their history By Brian Seymour Vesey-FitzGerald

Whilst not all the pages are included, I think you will find around page 112 interesting and confirm your theory !

It also links GRAY to HERON & LEE

You mention Tyso aka 'Taiso', this may be of interest form wiki

The present building erected in the 14th century is built of local greenstone and had a tower added in the 15th century. Outside the north-east of the chancel is a headstone to two gypsies, Tyso Boswell and Edward Hearn, killed by lightning on the eve of Horncastle Fair in 1831