Looking in Llanwonno

[majorgodin]

Though I've researched in North America for decades, this is my first foray into the UK, so I'm slowly learning how to search in new territory. May I ask a question or two?

Is the term ''parish", as used by the GRO, a civil or ecclesiatic designation?
I purchased a marriage record through the GRO and would like to view the original document. A Church is listed, as well as a parish -- but no town, which seemed odd. The entry reads: 'St-David's Church, Llanwonno parish.

An internet search yields a town named Llanwonno, but the closest St-David's church is 5 miles away. Further digging revealed there are numerous towns within the parish of Llanwonno, so I'm left to wonder which one is home to St-David's.

Or are church registries in Wales not kept in the local church, but rather in a centralized 'parish' location?

Apologies for such rudimentary questions, but I welcome any thoughts one might like to share.

Thanks,
M-G
researching: Richards, Pickerell, Hughes

[jannic]

Hi M-G
I'm afraid that I'm not the most knowledgable person here on BritGen but I happen to live very near Llanwonno and have some experience of researching here.

Llanwonno is a large parish, covering a fair part of the South Wales Rhondda valleys. Most of the parish records for the area are held at the Glamorgan record office in Cardiff. However a quick check of their catalogue reveals that they do not hold the records for St David's Church in Hopkinstown.

http://www.glamro.gov.uk/adobe/parish.pdf

Genuki gives a little more information and directs you to the Church in Wales website so it is quite possible that the incubent still has the registers at the Church.

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/Llanwonno/Hopkinstown/#ChurchRecords

It's not the easiest of sites to navigate but I managed to find an address for the Church. Maybe you could try writing?

St David
Gelliwion
Hopkinstown
PONTYPRIDD

And this

Priest in Charge
The Reverend C E Burr (D:2001 P:2002)
The Vicarage, Lanelay Crescent, Maesycoed, PONTYPRIDD, CF37 1JB
Phone: 01443 402417:
Places of Worship
St Barnabas, Trehafod
St David, Hopkinstown
St Mark, Pellgwaun


Good luck with your UK research
All the best
Jan

[majorgodin]

Hi Jan-

Thank you for your quick and and helpful reply. I'll follow up on your suggestions. Hopkintown is not a place name I've come across (yet). Census records show the family living in, or originating in Hafodrinog, Ystraddyfodwg, and Lanharry.

At the time of their 1857 marriage, the couple lived in 'Cwmshondda' - as best as I can decipher the name.

Again, thanks for taking the time to share information. It's appreciated.

Regards,
sharon

[Ms Tarfgi]

Hi Sharon and welcome to the Forum,

Your ancestors were married in Cwm Rhondda, Welsh for Rhondda Valley which contains many towns (parishes) so not very helpful.

Hopkinstown is in the Rhondda Valley and there is a modern photo of St David's church at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopkinstown.

As for parishes, the following may help a bit:

"Civil Parishes were created with the election of parochial boards in most parishes between 1845 and 1860. They were a local government unit with only civil responsibilities. They were founded anytime after the sixteenth century, most commonly between 1845 and 1975. Until 1930 civil parishes were defined as 'areas for which a separate poor rate is or can be assessed'. Many boundaries between civil and ecclesiastical parishes diverged after 1845. For instance, civil parishes were often previously subordinate areas of a mother parish known as hamlets, tithings, townships, chapelries or lordships. Many of these areas had individual poor law rates and to avoid confusion the Poor Law Amendment Act 1866 (29 & 30 Vict., c 113) stipulate that these were to be given the status of 'parishes'.>

From http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/types/status_page.jsp?unit_status=CP

Molly

[John Nicholas]

Sharon,

The thing to remember about Glamorganshire parishes is that the churches were established when the area was still largely rural. While some relate to market towns in certain parts of the county, eg Llantrisant, others like Llanwonno and Ystradyfodwg seem totally disconnected from the settlements which they serve - which grew from nothing during the industrialisation of the 19th century.

Another point to bear in mind is that Glamorgan, like much of South Wales, was strongly influenced by the growth of non-conformist churches - baptist, methodist etc. So sometimes you won't find records in the anglican churches because a family had become NC.

John

[majorgodin]

In the US, the term 'parish' is a small unit typically referring to a neighborhood served by the Roman Church. A town or village might have but one parish, while a large city would have many.

In that light, the term "parish of Llanwonno' confused me as it is seemed to be a large unit encompassing many towns. How Jan linked St-David's church with Hopkintown, I can't imagine, but I am glad she did.

Molly and John, your explanations of civil parishes and how they grew help me better understand their relationship with the areas they serve. Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge with me.

John, I appreciate the 'head's up' on NC records. The GRO marriage record indicates that St-David's is part of the Established Church, though after settling in the US, the family joined an Independent congregation.

With best wishes to all,
sharon

[Zenith]

I joined up specifically to answer this question as I had *exactly* the same problem. I had a marriage from 1876 which was solemnized at St David church in the parish of Llanwonno in the County of Glamorgan, but the residence had been crossed out and replaced for both bride and groom. That is *very* unusual as birth, marriage and death certificates tend to get rewritten if there's a major mistake.

I went to the Church in Wales website and found that Llanwonno parish has been absorbed into Pwllgwaun and Llanddewi Rhondda parish. It's the same information that jannic provided but got a different way.

http://www.churchinwales.org.uk/rb/ben.php?dosommat=detail&which=643

Clergy in the benefice
Priest in Charge
The Reverend C E Burr (D:2001 P:2002)
The Vicarage, Lanelay Crescent, Maesycoed, PONTYPRIDD, CF37 1JB
Phone: 01443 402417

Constituent parish of Pwllgwaun and Llanddewi Rhondda [L349]
Places of Worship
St Barnabas, Trehafod
St David, Hopkinstown
St Mark, PellgwaunI rang up Rev Chris Burr and had an interesting conversation about the parish boundaries and why a certificate might have an alteration.
He confirmed that St David church in Hopkinstown *IS* the St David church in Llanwonno parish. Even though the hamlet of Llanwonno is 5-6 miles away, Hopkinstown was right on the edge of the parish at the time. Part of Llanwonno has since been absorbed into Pwllgwaun and Llanddewi Rhondda parish.

He also explained why the residence might have been crossed out from Ynys-y-bwl to Ferndale. It might be that the bride and groom were living in Ynys-y-bwl when banns were announced but moved to Ferndale by the time of the marriage itself (banns were church announcements for 3 Sundays before the marriage). The vicar may have deliberately put Ynys-y-bwl and then crossed it out so that the bishop verifying the records could determine that they were actually living in the parish when banns were announced. It could be that they moved to Ferndale by the time of the marriage. It wasn't usual practice but it also wasn't unknown. These days they simply spoil the certificate and write a fresh one out.

Good luck on finding your information, but remember that there were a LOT of NC churches in Wales in the 19th century. Religious affiliation isn't necessarily an important factor after 1837 (when civil registration became mandatory) but will have some bearing on parish records before 1837.

[majorgodin]

This must have been a busy week for Rev. Burr as I have corresponded with him via e-mail regarding St-David's as well!

Initially, I didn't find St-Davids listed in the on-line index for the Glamorgan Records Office, so I took Jan's advice and contacted the church directly. Rev. Burr kindly offerred to help. Little would he guess that his signature was the help I needed. There below his name was: "The Parish of Pwllgwaum & Llanddwei Rhondda". I followed that clue back to index. There under Lladdwei Rhondda is St-David's Hopkinstown, just what was needed.

Those of you who live in the area and know these things instinctively must be laughing at my 'eureka" moment. Glad to provide some amusement!

Meanwhile, as I fumble along trying to gain an understanding of Glamorgan geography, when churches were established, what towns/villages/hamlets they served and when mergers occurred, its these small things that are satisfying.

Zenith - thank you for sharing the information about changes in residence. It good to know.

Wishing you all "eureka moments" big or small,
sharon

[julie1964]

Hi M-G
It's been 6 years since you posted and I just found you! We share the same family (Richards/Pickerell) and I am very excited to have found you. Hoping that you are still on this forum. If so, please email me at JulieATpickrel254.fsnetDOTcoDOTuk I have a lot to share with you and look forward to hearing about your link to the family.
With fingers crossed!
Julie

[geneius]

Hello & welcome

Majorgodin has not visited the site since Dec 2010, if you click on her name a drop down box will appear where you will be able to send a PM, hopefully the e mail address is the same!

Good Hunting