Handwriting! HELP!!!!

[Spangle]

I have two wills bought and downloaded from the National Archives and my goodness are they a beggar to decipher! Is there any way I can pass a copy on please so that I can ask for help with a couple of particular words/phrases?

Ok, help with the flaming lot would be the ideal thing but I don't imagine anyone has the time or patience for that!! I'd be grateful for confirmation that a couple of names are what I think they are and for one word, used several times, to be deciphered. The problem is that the documents are downloaded, accessible for only 56 days so I presume that I can't save them to my pc (CAN I???!!!), and of course there is no way of publishing the relevant bits here. Any ideas please?

Many thanks,

Spangle the techno-idiot.

[Spangle]

Oh my word.. now you've lost me (not hard, I AM blonde!). Please can you tell me how I upload the document onto the forum? I have managed to save it to documents (still not sure if it won't disappear in 56 days time though!).

Sorry to be a pain.

Thank you,

Spangle

[Spangle]

Its a PDF document Finbar. :)

[Spangle]

Nope! I can send to FedEx Kinkos, whatever that is, or I can connect to others and share the document via Adobe, but no camera icon. I give up! I'll have another fight with it in the morning... meantime, thank you for your kindness Finbar, its nice to know that there is someone else out there who keeps daft hours!

Again, thank you ever so much.

[Peter Goodey]

After you've paid, the National Archives give you a URL from which you can download the document. This URL is good for several days.

Tell us what the URL was and we will be abe to see the document.

[John Nicholas]

Hello Spangle,

It is certainly possible to save the images electronically - I did so with one I bought last year. I think it's really simple. Just open the image from the website - if it's a pdf it will open in Acrobat Reader. Then click on 'File', 'Save a copy' and save it as you would any document which you had created. You can also, of course, print them off for future use off-screen.

John

[MythicalMarian]

I have two wills bought and downloaded from the National Archives and my goodness are they a beggar to decipher! Is there any way I can pass a copy on please so that I can ask for help with a couple of particular words/phrases?

Ok, help with the flaming lot would be the ideal thing but I don't imagine anyone has the time or patience for that!! I'd be grateful for confirmation that a couple of names are what I think they are and for one word, used several times, to be deciphered. The problem is that the documents are downloaded, accessible for only 56 days so I presume that I can't save them to my pc (CAN I???!!!), and of course there is no way of publishing the relevant bits here. Any ideas please?

Many thanks,

Spangle the techno-idiot.

Having just deciphered two massive ones from the same source (one at 11 pages with seven codicils!) my eyes are tuned very well at the mo, Spangle. If you are still stuck PM me and I'll be willing to do them for you.

[Retlaw]

I have two wills bought and downloaded from the National Archives and my goodness are they a beggar to decipher! Is there any way I can pass a copy on please so that I can ask for help with a couple of particular words/phrases?

Ok, help with the flaming lot would be the ideal thing but I don't imagine anyone has the time or patience for that!! I'd be grateful for confirmation that a couple of names are what I think they are and for one word, used several times, to be deciphered. The problem is that the documents are downloaded, accessible for only 56 days so I presume that I can't save them to my pc (CAN I???!!!), and of course there is no way of publishing the relevant bits here. Any ideas please?

Many thanks,

Spangle the techno-idiot.

Magnify on screen, use a piece of tracing paper or plastic and then follow the writing with pencil.

It usualy shows up clearly and eliminates the up and down strokes from the lines above and below. I'm assuming its a hand written document.
Retlaw.

[Aislin]

Here's the first page

http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr182/ayslin1/henryoppenheimwill-2.jpg

[Vance Mead]

Here's a start, the main items

Henry Oppenheim of Clarence Place, West Grove, Tottenham, Middlesex

Make my will etc.

Soul to God almighty, etc.

Earthly remains should be interred in the Hovey (?) Park cemetery in an oak coffin.

A plain funeral consisting of one hearse without plumes drawn by two horses and followed by two mourning coaches

Sons Alexander Oppenheim, Phylyp G. Oppenheim, Charles Fox Oppenheim
Also Henry (?) Oppenheim and David Oppenheim crossed out

For daughter Matilda Oppenheim, a government life annuity of eighty pounds to be purchaesed of the Commisioners for the Reduction of the National Debt

For daughter Caroline Aurelia Oppenheim the same, as long as both remain unmarried

If they marry then executors to appoint trustees for the annuities

For daughter Harriet the wife of George Lamert (?) a sufficient sum to purchase for her from the Commissioners …

[Geoffers]

Aislin

See Vance's reply above for a breakdown. If you want to try and follow the will against a transcription it appears (it's a very scrappy will) to read as follows:

In the name of God Amen
I Henry OPPENHEIM of Clarence Place West Green Tottenham County
of Middlesex Esquire being of sound and disposing mind and memory do
make and declare this to be my last will and testament in manner
following that is to say I bequeath my soul to Almighty God in hopes of
obtaining his mercy when called into his presence and sojourning in his
heavenly abode mixing with all happy cogenerates spirits and order
when it has fled from my body that the earthly remains should be
interred in the Jewry Park Cemetery (where a vaulted grave should be
purchased from my effects for the purpose) in an oak coffin and conducted
to the grave by two horses and followed by two mourning coaches & command to
my executors hereafter named to see the same carried into effect
I hereby release my sons Alexander OPPENHEIM Philip OPPENHEIM
And Charles Fox OPPENHEIM and Henry OPPENHEIM and
if living at the time of my decease from all claims due to me
by bonds (any?) monies advanced to them by me
I desire first all my just debts funeral expenses and charges of proving this my
last will and testament by fully paid and satisfied & after payment thereof
I bequeath to my daughter Matilda OPPENHEIM out of my effects and proper-
-ties such sum as will purchase her during her natural life should she
remain unmarried a Government Life Annuity of Eighty Pounds to be
purchased of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt at the
Office in the Old Jewry. I bequeath to my daughter Caroline Amelia
OPPENHEIM a sum for the purpose also of purchasing for her a life
Annuity of Eighty Pounds should she remain unmarried from the
Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt but in case should either of my said
daughters Matilda or Caroline hereafter get married I then appoint my
executors hereafter named to be Trustees for either of my said daughters
who should so marry to receive the said annuity & pay over to either of
them when married the said annuity of (…..?) five pounds for their sole
use uncontrolled by the husband should either be married
I bequeath to my daughter Harriet the wife of George LAM(ER?)T out of my
Effects & properties a sufficient sum to purchase for her from the Commissioners for

[Margarets60]

|book|I was recently talking to a maker of wills who said that it was once current practice to pay by the word for the drawing up of a will and that some of the flowery language was not actually essential. ;)

[Aislin]

although this will isn't mine (I'm just the messenger), there are 4 pages of it.

Spangle, read Geoffers (very generous) translation, and if you need any help with any of the other pages, let us know and I'll put that specific page up.

[Jane Gee]

So glad I came across this i have an A3 size will from the national archives lookings very similar and was a beggar to decipher, so did give up. Thanks to these posts it has inspired me to have another stab at it so thank you.

[Geoffers]

So glad I came across this i have an A3 size will from the national archives lookings very similar and was a beggar to decipher, so did give up. Thanks to these posts it has inspired me to have another stab at it so thank you.

If you get stuck and the URL from The National Archives is still valid, feel free to start a new thread and post it there, I'm sure that someone will have a go. Otherwise try uploading an image to photobucket and give us the link to that. If you sit and stare at these things long enough, they slowly begin to make sense.

[Aislin]

|book|I was recently talking to a maker of wills who said that it was once current practice to pay by the word for the drawing up of a will and that some of the flowery language was not actually essential. ;)

I'd have to say the flowery language is part of the charm of the document though. Imagine your dismay to discover the will said "I'm still alive and I know what I'm doing. The wife gets it all. Oh, and maybe a couple of bucks for the kids while we're at it."

[Spangle]

Wow thank you everyone. I am overwhelmed by your kindness.

A couple of points... I couldn't read the ***** Park Cemetery bit so googled "Park Cemetery" and the only thing which came up was Abney Park (near Stamford Hill, a big Jewish area). There is nothing when you google "Jewry Park".

Also, I read the two sons mentioned as an afterthought and then crossed out as Henry (my g g g grandfather) and Samuel. There is no David in the family to my knowledge! The only other son was William and I cannot trace him after his birth. If you have time to look again Geoffers, do you think that the erased name could be Samuel, not David? My logic is that Samuel also married out of the faith and he was in business partnership (often unsuccessfully!) with Henry.

As for Charles Fox's bequest... does it read to you as it does to me that Henry gifted him money provided that it didn't go to his creditors?!

I like the fact that Henry ordered that his daughter's bequests should not be controlled by any man they might marry! But what is this Commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt business? Can anyone make sense of that please?

Finally, George Lamert was, I have discovered, the owner of the blacking business into which Charles Dickens was sent as a boy. I am a Shakespeare girl rather than a Dickens fan (though my interest in him is growing rapidly!) but from what I know Dickens always spoke with venom of those years. Hardly surprising given the job and his age! Apparently the manager of the factory was James Lamert, who was tenuously related to Dickens as James' widowed father had married Dickens' favourite aunt. A browse of the net indicated that James and other Lamerts encouraged Dickens' interest in the theatre and the arts.

What I know for sure is that having cut Henry junior out of his will for whatever reason, Henry senior may well be considered responsible for how Henry junior's children (and their ancestors such as myself) turned out... not Jewish, not well off and somewhat confused as to their background! The fella has a lot to answer for!!

It's funny how things turn out though... Henry junior's daughter (my g g grandmother) and her husband (also of German descent but not Jewish as far as I can make out) lived, in 1881, in the street off of which I grew up despite the various generations moving several times and to many different places in between.

I feel the need to go "home" to that little corner of South East London.... and all the more understanding of why I have always felt so deeply attached to it.

Again, I can't thank you all enough. I am deeply touched by your kindness in making sense of and bringing to life the family history of this stranger, across the net and across the miles. Ainslin - thank you - you were not the only person to offer to help here, but the one who got there first and I am grateful to you and to everyone else who offered. I consider myself privilidged to have met with such astoundingly generous people.

[Geoffers]

A couple of points... I couldn't read the ***** Park Cemetery bit so googled "Park Cemetery" and the only thing which came up was Abney Park (near Stamford Hill, a big Jewish area). There is nothing when you google "Jewry Park".

The name is not clear, not helped by the decending loop from the 'f' in the line above. It does look very similar in form to the reference to the 'Old Jewry' in line 22. However, this is a court copy and errors might have been made in transcription from the original. Alternatively the name 'Jewry Park Cemetery' may have been a local name; or name of the cemetery at the time; or I might have misread it.

The Jewish Genealogical Society of Great Britain may be able to give advice on names of cemeteries.


Also, I read the two sons mentioned as an afterthought and then crossed out as Henry (my g g g grandfather) and Samuel. There is no David in the family to my knowledge! The only other son was William and I cannot trace him after his birth. If you have time to look again Geoffers, do you think that the erased name could be Samuel, not David?

I read the names crossed out in line 14 as 'Henry and Samuel'


As for Charles Fox's bequest... does it read to you as it does to me that Henry gifted him money provided that it didn't go to his creditors?!

Just from the page given it reads that he may have loaned his sons money (for business?) and that if any of that money was outstanding at his death, then the debt was cancelled.


I like the fact that Henry ordered that his daughter's bequests should not be controlled by any man they might marry!

This type of phrasing is quite common - it ensures that the bequest is a personal gift to the daughter.


But what is this Commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt business?

It was a fund raising means for HM Government. They would issue bonds at specific rates of interest as a means of avoding taking out loans overseas. Most countries have something similar.



What I know for sure is that having cut Henry junior out of his will for whatever reason, Henry senior may well be considered responsible for how Henry junior's children (and their ancestors such as myself) turned out... not Jewish, not well off and somewhat confused as to their background! The fella has a lot to answer for!!

Familes! 'H junr' obviously upset 'H senr' - different times, different standards and etiquette within families.


Again, I can't thank you all enough. I am deeply touched by your kindness in making sense of and bringing to life the family history of this stranger, across the net and across the miles.

Not a problem, if you want help with the rest of it, plese ask

[Thomasin]

I'm sure that Spangle is right, and the cemetery is Abney Park Cemetery. Look at the A of Almighty - the left-hand downstroke is looped and does rather resemble a J.

Thomasin

[Geoffers]

I'm sure that Spangle is right, and the cemetery is Abney Park Cemetery. Look at the A of Almighty - the left-hand downstroke is looped and does rather resemble a J.

You wouldn't hear an argument from me, Abney may very well be correct, especially as there is a cemetery of that name - the evidence points that way.

Rather than taking the 'A' of 'Almighty' - I think the first letter of the word looks very similar to the first letter of the name Alexander. What would settle it for definite would be an index of burials there.

[Spangle]

I discovered that there are 3 Oppenheims buried at Abney - but which ones, I don't know.

[Aislin]

I found these three at Abney
Name Date Age Burial Section Index
Oppenheim, Frances 29mar1876 67y 058738 D05 2S11
Oppenheim, Henry 05feb1850 77y 005035 L06 1S04
Oppenheim, Samuel 04may1848 37y 003219 D05 1S03


Oppenheim burial source (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~abneypark/name/names-opp000.html#Oppenheim,)

[Margarets60]

I'd have to say the flowery language is part of the charm of the document though. Imagine your dismay to discover the will said "I'm still alive and I know what I'm doing. The wife gets it all. Oh, and maybe a couple of bucks for the kids while we're at it."
:D I do agree. I find the language fascinating. I have a particular favourite which amuses me. It is a Will dated 1806. (I have earlier Wills from the same family which were all detailed and very generous.) The last paragraph begins: "And I further direct that if any of the above named Heirs and Legatees shall become contentious concerning or about this my last will then and in such case he she or they so contending or opposing with the Expanse of Law: shall receive five shillings only and in full for their share or shares each and the rest residue and remainder of his or their share or shares shall belong and be equally divided amongst the uniting parties."
I do wonder what happened after the reading of the earlier wills.

[Aislin]

Ah. Where there's a will..........there's relatives.

Probably so much bickering going on that it was decided enough was enough.

It does give you "the story" of what was happening in their lives. It makes them more real than just people in your tree.

[Spangle]

Gosh! Thank you Ainslin, both for the burial records and for alerting me to the fact that "the other website" has now got a far improved search facility. It is well worth me taking up my membership again, I think.

Well, they are all mine! Henry senior, Samuel his son (partly explaining why he was crossed out of Henry seniors will as the father survived the son although this is not the case with Henry junior). Perhaps this is why Henry opted for this particular, non-denominational cemetery.

The third person, Frances (nee Moseley), was the Presbytarean wife of Henry junior and my g g g grandmother. Is it me, or is it odd that her husband, who died in not so far away West Ham, London, in 1890, is not (at least as far as the records show) buried beside or near to his wife?

Thank you too Geoffers for the information on the National Debt. Time for me to read up on the issue!