Philemon Mangal Richards, help...............

[siamesewillow]

My Grandfather going back was a cordwainer, he was called Philemon Mangal Richards b 1806,Castle Precincts, Bristol. In the 1850s he went to America and continued as a shoemaker. I would love to know what nationality he was, and the name of his parents. His son George was also a cordwainer but than became a grocer. He stayed in this country.:confused:

siamese

[Sue Mackay]

Are you Helina on Rootschat? If not, go to

http://www
rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,244771.0.html

[siamesewillow]

Yes I'm helina

siamese|book2|

[pastimperfect]

The Castle Precincts area in Bristol was a Civil Parish in the county of Gloucestershire, in England. It was abolished in 1896.
It occupied the area between the parishes of St. Philip and Jacob on the east, and that of St. Peter on the west; the river Frome on the north, and the waters of the Avon on the south. It was heavily bombed during WW2 and now almost all covered by parkland known as Castle Green.

My Gt GT Gt Grandfather James Alsop worked as a cordwainer and was of Irish descent. He is listed in the UK Census of 1841 in the Parish of St Augustine. The family were Catholic. He died by 1845 in the Poor House (St Peter's Hospital)

If you go to ancestry you will find the following on Philemon Richards which might assist you with your enquiries:

Boston Passenger Lists, 1820-1943
Immigration & Emigration
View Image
Name: Philemon Richards
Birth: abt 1805
Departure: Liverpool, England
Arrival: 10 Aug 1853 - Boston, Massachusetts

1860 United States Federal Census
Census & Voter Lists
View Image
Name: Phileman Richards
Birth: abt 1803 - England
Residence: 1860 - North Providence, Providence, Rhode Island

If he was born in Bristol he would be English. The name comes from a wealthy citizen of Colossae, to whom St. Paul addressed a private letter, unique in the New Testament, which bears his name.

The Bristol Record Office holds extensive records on Bristolians and they are very helpful and quick to reply to any queries. They can be contacted on:
Bristol Record Office
'B' Bond Warehouse
Smeaton Road
Bristol
BS1 6XN
Tel: 0117 922 4224
Fax: 0117 922 4236
Open: Tuesday - Friday, 9.30 am - 4.30 pm
Plus 9.30 am - 7 pm first two Thursdays of the month
and 10 am - 4 pm first two Saturdays of the month
(unless clashing with Doors Open Day or a bank holiday)

[janbooth]

Hi Helina,

I can't find your Philemon in the 1851 census, but this entry in the 1851 census of Hillmorton, Warwickshire might be connected in some way - the name just seems too much of a coincidence!!

HO107/2070, folio 189, page 21
Lower Street

Philemon MANGAL Head Mar 40 Inn Keeper Wick Glamorgan
Mary do Wife Mar 34 Corra Shropshire
Marion do Daur 9 Scholar Kineton Warwick
William do Son 6 do do do
Mary Ann do Daur 3 Katford do
Jane do do 9 mths Hillmorton do
Sarah WATERS Serv U 15 House Servant Northampton

However, I have found your Philemon in the 1841 census of Castle Precincts, Bristol:

HO107/371/7, folio 15, page 23
Sheppard Court

Philemon RICHARDS 35 Cordwainer Born in county no
William do 15 yes
George do 10 yes
Emma do 10 yes
Caroline WILLIAMSON 20 Ind yes
Emma do 1 month yes

There is a will on the National Archives Documents Online site of a Thomas RICHARDS Boot & Shoe Maker of Bristol dated 8 March 1824 who might be connected in some way.

And there is in the 1851 census of Bristol (HO107/1954, folio 32, page 57) a Willm. RICHARD, Widr, aged 47, Shoemaker, born Swansea living at New Street who again could be connected in some way.

HTH

Janet

[siamesewillow]

Edit by moderator - from hereon was a separate thread, I have merged the two to avoid confusion

My GGGreat Grandfather, Philemon Mangal Richards born 1806(c) Bristol. He married Emma Rowles and they had 3 children, Emma died in 1838(c) In the 1850s Philemon went to America and continued his work as a shoemaker. The children remained in England. I can find no record of his birth or who his parents were. With a namw like that I would love to know what nationality he was.

Any help would be appreciated.

siamese |help||help|

[Elwyn Soutter]

I googled "Philemon Mangle" and found a mention of a death 11.4.1808 of a PH who lived in Wick, Glamorgan. With such an unusual name, perhaps there is a connection.

Elwyn

[janbooth]

According to the 1841 census of Bristol, he was not born in the county of Gloucestershire:

HO107/371/7, folio 15, page 23
Sheppard Court

Philemon RICHARD 35 Cordwainer Born in the county no
William do 15 yes
George do 10 yes
Emma do 10 yes
Caroline WILLIAMSON 20 Ind yes
Emma do 1 month yes

I can't find him in the 1851 census, so perhaps he had already left England by then.

Janet

[siamesewillow]

Yes, thats him, Janet. thanks, I'll have a look into the death that Elwyn found could be a connection and Wick is very near Gloucestershire

siamese

[siamesewillow]

Edit by moderator - this post had begun a new thread by Siamesewillow. It has been merged with two earlier threads to avoid causing confusion and duplication of effort

I had started a similiar thread earlier but hope a miracle is still possible. Philemon Mangal Richards born 1806 <c> England. On the 1841 census he is living in Castle Precincts Bristol, a cordwainer by occupation. In 1825 he marries Emma Rowles, she dies in 1838. Going back to the census, he appears to have 3 children William born 1827, George born 1829 and Emma born 1831. Can find no sign of Philemon on the 1851 census and he emigrates to the USA in 1853.

Found 2 baptisms for the 2 boys William and George naming the parents as above. Nothing for Emma. Have a marriage certificate for George who marries Eliza Lewis in 1846 Bristol. George and Eliza are my Great Grandparents x 3.

Regarding William and Emma I am lost. Alot of marriages for a William and have one marriage certificate but his father was called John. Found a marriage for Emma but on the familysearch beta site her father was called John.

Have visited the Bristol RO with little success.

A friend told me that John is the Anglicised version of Mangal, is that correct? I am not aware of it.

What can be my next step, surely someone with a name like Philemon cannot completely disappear in 1851, and where was William and Emma, could Emma be a neice? not daughter as no details on the 1841 census.

Any help would be appreciated.


siamese

[janbooth]

Could this be Emma in the 1851 census of Clifton?

HO107/1952, folio 247, page 46
Chandos Villa

Jacob CROOK Head Widr 55 Landed Property Bristol
Jacob do Son Mar 30 Clerk do
Joyce SMART Visitor Un 47 Annuitant do
Fanny RANDALL Servant Un 23 Devon
Emma RICHARDS do Un 20 Bristol

There is a marriage in 1854 at Bristol reg district for an Emma RICHARDS but only 1 groom's name is given and I don't think he is the one who married Emma as I can't find them together on the 1861 census. I will look further and see if I can find her husband.

Janet

[jeeb]

Hi siamese,
There is also a John & Emma Richards in St Philip & St Jacob, Bristol who is also a cordwainer. This John & Emma also have a William & Emma amongst their children but Emma was born about 1821 & William about 1825. These are no doubt the two you have found listed with a father John. They are therefore not your Philemon's children, infact both William & Emma can be found in 1841 with their parents. Like Jan I had also found Emma aged 20 as a servant in 1851 and think this a likely candidate for your Emma.

Jeremy

[Pam Downes]

There are two previous threads about Philemon to which people might like to refer before doing further research.

Edit by moderator - links to two previous threads removed, not now needed as threads have been merged

Pam

[Geoffers]

There are two previous threads about Philemon to which people might like to refer before doing further research.

Thanks Pam. I have now merged the three threads into one.

Siamesewillow - Keeping more than one thread going on a subject frequently causes confusion, frustration and duplication of effort. It is much better to simply update a thread (simply click on the 'reply' button), either with new information or by asking if anyone has anything they can add to the thread.

[siamesewillow]

Thank you Janet, Sounds like Emma so have something to work on. To save you time I did find a marriage (forgot what year) for a Emma Richards to .............. Dickenson. Had the whole family on my tree, but found the marriage on familysearch beta and Emma's father was called John, so deleted the whole line.

siamese

[siamesewillow]

Jeremy, But I found a baptism for William naming Phelimon and Emma as the parents.

siamese

[janbooth]

Helina,

Could this be your William RICHARDS in the 1851 census of Bristol - I know his age is slightly out but the occupation is a coincidence:

HO107/1954, folio 292, page 37
10 Queen Anne Street

Richard WAKEMAN Head Mar 40 Labourer Bristol St Phillips
Hester do Wife Mar 32 do do
+ their 6 children
William RICHARDS Lodger 21 Cordwainer do do

If this is the correct William, he is in Torquay in the 1861 census and married to an Anne with children William aged 8, Louisa aged 6, John aged 4 and Sarah J aged 1, the whole family shown as born Bristol, living at 7 Madrepore Road. There is a marriage registration in the September qtr 1851 at Bristol reg district, vol 11, page 142 for a William RICHARDS and there is an Ann ROWE or an Anna MORGAN on the same page which sounds a possibility.

Janet

[jeeb]

Jeremy, But I found a baptism for William naming Phelimon and Emma as the parents.

siamese

Hi siamese,
I am not disputing the fact that Philemon and Emma had a son William, infact I know they did because he is on the 1841 census with Philemon. What I am saying is that John & Emma Richards of St Philip & St Jacob also had a son William so the marriage you found of a William stating John as the father would be correct and that William is NOT your Philemon's son.

I don't know if you are aware of a Philemon Mangel who was born in Wick, Glamorganshire in about 1810 appears on several censuses. This is a rather unusual name and there could well be a connection.

Jeremy

[siamesewillow]

Hi Janet, Yes that could be William on the 1851, but as there appears to be two Williams both cordwainers its going to be difficult. Regarding the marriage I found that one awhile back, everything fitted into place, right occupation, married in Bristol, age right, married a Anna Morgan (census had her as Anne) but while browsing though though ancestry came across a marriage, and yes you have already guessed William's father was called John.
Thanks Jeremy, for your imput, I'll do some more research on the Welsh connection but I have my doults. When Philemon went to the States in 1853 he lodged with a family called Taylor, not only where they cordwainers but also born in England. He is on the 1860 America census but no sign of him on the 1870 so he either died or went aboard again.
There are so many marriages for a William Richards so one day when I am wealthy I 'll have to order the certificates one by one.

siamese

[siamesewillow]

A small success. George Richards born 1829 (son of Philemon) had six children and I have been having trouble with one. Son George born 1854, again he is not the only George born about then and in Bristol, so looking for a marriage was not easy. While searching the 1881 census came across George Richards, wife Emily and quite a few children. Now why do you think he is my George? Well he was a Grocer same as his father and same address. I have ordered a marriage certificate just to confirm I.m correct. Just when I was giving up on the Richards family.

siamese

[janbooth]

Fingers crossed for you Helina that he turns out to be your George.

Janet

[siamesewillow]

The marriage certificate has arrived and a big yes, had to let you know.

helina

[janbooth]

Great news, Helina. Good luck with the rest of your research.

Janet