Latin translation

[DaveinInskip]

hello folks,can I call upon your expert knowledge once more for a translation of the enclosed Baptism.I have looked through Bo Peep's suggested pages,and my own notes on translating ,but can find no mention of this one, nor even the words in it.

The words "periculo,a,me,ipsi,suppletae,sunt,ceremoniae"

Die 14th Novembris 1809 nata et eadem die in periculo baptizata
fuit a me Ellena Bonney filia Gulielmi et Aliciae Bonney conjugum :
ipsi suppletae sunt ceremoniae die 3 Decembris 1809. Patrinus
fuit Carolus Winstanley. Matrina Elizabetha Carpenter, a me
Thoma Dawson


Help would be very much appreciated.

Dave in Inskip

[MythicalMarian]

Periculo literally means 'dangerous' - so make of this what you will, Dave. The 'a me' simply means 'by me' - so the baptism was recorded by Thomas Dawson, no doubt the minister.

The other words are a little off - I'll get back to you, but from a general overview of this, I think that the child has a private baptism (perhaps she was frail) on 14th November (the day she was born). There then follows a full church bap on 3 December when the godparents are named - this was perhaps a 'receiving into the church'.

Is this a Catholic bap?

Alas, I'm a classical Latin person, not the bastardised vulgate version the latter day church used, so I'll need to have a root about to see if I can come up with anything different to the suggestion above. Our experts may be able to help you further.

[Elwyn Soutter]

Not an expert but Periculo is dangerous or peril. So the first sentence tells us that the child was born on 14.11.1809 and baptised "in peril" the same day. (Presumably they expected it to die). Then there is something about Ellena
(?Helen) Bonney daughter of William and Alice Bonney, whose marrriage ceremony (ceremoniae) was completed (suppletae) on 3.12.1809. Witnesses (Patrinus & Matrinus) Charles Winstanley and Elizabeth Carpenter.

I seem to recall "sunt" is the past tense of to be ie "they were". "Ipsi" means "self". Patrinus is presumably a male witness, matrinus a female witness. (The english words patron & matron presumably come from them?).

No doubt someone else will be able to expand and polish this up a bit.

Elwyn

[DaveinInskip]

Marian,yes this is a Catholic Baptism.

thanks for your info to date

Dave in inskip

[arthurk]

Die 14th Novembris 1809 nata et eadem die in periculo baptizata
fuit a me Ellena Bonney filia Gulielmi et Aliciae Bonney conjugum :
ipsi suppletae sunt ceremoniae die 3 Decembris 1809. Patrinus
fuit Carolus Winstanley. Matrina Elizabetha Carpenter, a me
Thoma Dawson

Earlier replies are basically correct. My version:
14th November 1809: Ellen Bonney daughter of William and Alice Bonney* was born and baptised the same day, [being] in danger [of death]: The ceremony itself was completed on 3 December 1809. The godfather was Charles Winstanley, godmother Elizabeth Carpenter. By me, Thomas Dawson.

* "conjugum" means marriage or married couple - it doesn't really fit in English, though you can understand a wish to record that Ellen was legitimate. The closest English equivalent would be "William Bonney and Elizabeth his wife".

Arthur

[DaveinInskip]

to Arthurk,Elwyn,MythicalMarion, very many thanks for your replies,having noted that the previous baptism entry was 8 Nov,and the following one was
5 Dec as you all suggested seemed to be correct,so I've gone along that road,and the entry is in.

thanks again,
best wishes
Dave in Inskip

[Oates]

I think 'patrinus fuit' and 'matrinus fuit' are the godparents. I just got an email about a Catholic baptism with those words and that was what I took them to mean. With mine, the 'patrinus fuit' is a man who is boarding with the family in the following census so this makes sense.

[MythicalMarian]

I think 'patrinus fuit' and 'matrinus fuit' are the godparents. I just got an email about a Catholic baptism with those words and that was what I took them to mean. With mine, the 'patrinus fuit' is a man who is boarding with the family in the following census so this makes sense.

Yes - patrinus and matrinus are definitely godparents - literally 'little father' and 'little mother' - i.e. a diminutive is being used to show they are not 'real' parents. Alas, I have no real experience with Catholic baps and registers, but I worked this much out from the Latin itself.

[Colin Moretti]

fuit, perfect tense of sum (the verb to be), meaning was, so
Patrinus fuit Carolus Winstanleytranslates as
Charles Winstanley was the godfather

Try to track down a copy of Latin for Local & Family Historians by Denis Stuart. It covers basic Latin grammar, the use of Latin in ecclesistical and manorial records, charters and deeds and includes a glossary of the more common words.

Colin

[DaveinInskip]

Thanks Colin,for your info,and to MythicalMarion,I had a quick look at the Stokes-Turner connection,looking for a match,but afraid not,my lot hail from Birmingham then Sheffield.

Thanks again

Dave Stokes in Inskip