COPE Mansfield

[Val Goddard]

Arthur Martin Cope married Elizabeth Quinton on 22 Oct 1894 at parish church of Mansfield. He was 23 and a butcher from Belvidere (name of a road), she aged 22 from Cromwell Street.

Arthur’s father was Thomas Cope a butcher. I have the marriage certificate.

In the 1901 census Arthur (29) and Elizabeth were at 42 Belvedere St, Mansfield, a butcher with his own account working at home. They had one son Thomas Martin Cope aged 3. Arthur was born in Mansfield.

Martin is believed to be a family name.

Arthur died June 1927 at 105 Stockwell gate, Mansfield aged 55, a butcher of 61 Bowling St, Mansfield.

Months of research left me unable to find

Arthur’s birth

Arthur on censuses, 1881, 1891

Thomas (butcher) on censuses
.

[Val Goddard]

The only Arthur Cope anyone could find on the 1881 census was

Joseph Denby, Head, 44, Frame work knitter, Mansfield

Mary Denby, Wife, 33,Selston

Annie Denby, Daur, 16, Mill Hand, Mansfield

Emma Cope, Daur, 12, Mill Hand, Mansfield

Joseph Cope, Son, 11, Scholar, Mansfield

Arthur Cope, Son, 9, Scholar, Mansfield

Hannah Denby, Daur, 3, Mansfield

Emma Cope, Daur, 12, Mill Hand, Mansfield

Joseph Cope, Son, 11, Scholar, Mansfield

Arthur Cope, Son, 9, Scholar, Mansfield

Hannah Denby, Daur, 3, Mansfield

John J Denby, Son, 1, Mansfield



They were living at 9 Wheatsheaf Yard, Mansfield which appears to have been off Stockwell Gate (where Arthur died).

[Val Goddard]

As Arthur’s marriage certificate had indicated father “Thomas Cope, butcher”, I did not pursue the above census return until recently. It appears, from the names and ages of children to be a second marriage. I have found the marriage of John Denby to Mary Cope (both widowed) at Kirkby in Ashfield, Notts. Mary’s father is John Martin from which (I assume) the family name of Martin comes from.



Searching the 1871 census now for Mary Cope and children Emma and Joseph I find living at 9 Wheatsheaf Yard

Thomas Coupe, Head, 24, Potato Roaster, Mansfield

Mary Coupe, Wife, 23, Selston

Emma, Daur, 3, Mansfield

Joseph, Son, 1, MansfieldThomas Coupe, Head, 24, Potato Roaster, Mansfield

Mary Coupe, Wife, 23, Selston

Emma, Daur, 3, Mansfield

Joseph, Son, 1, Mansfield

Only problem – Thomas is a potato roaster, not a butcher.

[Val Goddard]

Thomas Cope did indeed die in July 1874 at Wheatsheaf Yard. He was 27 years old, a potato dealer and died of phenitis (meningitis). The death was notified by a Joseph Cope from Lowdham St, Snenton, Notts.



So I was 99.9% certain I have the right people. The places all tie up, as do the ages, just the fly in the ointment – when Arthur got married in 1894, 20 years after his father’s death, his father was not recorded as deceased (I know this does happen), but also the occupation is butcher rather than potato dealer/roaster.



However I still cannot find Arthur’s birth, nor can I find a marriage of Thomas Cope to Mary Martin. Neither can I find Arthur Cope aged 19 on the 1891 census, although I have found the rest of the Denby family after much searching as they have been mistranscribed as Dauby.

[Val Goddard]

I posted No 5 last night but it seems to have disappeared......

Having only last week received the death certificate of Thomas Cope, and discovering the informant Joseph Cope I looked him up on the 1871 census. Sure enough there he is in Lowdham St, Snenton aged 52, with wife, 2 children aged 15 and 11, and then a son, Thomas Cope, aged 24 , married, …….a pork butcher (unemployed). But I already have my Thomas Cope married to Mary (nee Martin = family name) in the 1871 census who later dies. Were there 2 Thomas Copes? Have I been following the wrong family even though so many facts tied up? I can’t find any Thomas Copes getting married.

Help please – this is doing my head in. Anyone got the 1861 census that might throw some light on all this.

[Christine]

Val,

I'm a little bit lost but have looked on the 1861 Census for Thomas Cope in Snenton. He wasn't there! If your Thomas was a butcher then you must forget the potato man. He wouldn't change trades, especially if his son was also a butcher as he could have worked for his son when he got too old to run his own business. Can you give me what information you have on Thomas and I'll carry on looking for him. Where did he die?
Regards, Christine

PS I've searched Sutton in Ashfield and Mansfield without any success. There are 94 pages in the 1861 with Copes! I'll search the places you give me but can't look them all up.

[Val Goddard]

The only hard facts I have are from Arthur's marriage certificate. He is a butcher from "belvidere" and his father was Thomas Cope - Butcher. This was October 22 1894 , marriage at parish church Mansfield. (married Elizabeth Quinton). Son Thomas was born 2/12/1897 at 13 Belvidere St, Mansfield, Arthur was Master Butcher. They were then at 42 Belvidere st in 1901 census - butcher own account working at home.
However I cannot get anything EARLIER - not Arthur's birth, nor census entries for him or Thomas Snr other than those quoted in my 5 epistles.
Grateful for any help you can give

[Christine]

Hi Val,

I'm hoping to turn your unhappy smiley to a happier one.
Thomas Martin Cope born on 2/12/1897 was baptised on 07/06/1898 at St Marks Mansfield. His brother Arthur Martin was baptised on 23/07/1895 at St Peters and the family were living at 13 Belvidere at that time (info from NFHS CD)

(In 1901 when the family was at 42 Belvidere my GGrandparents had their shop and lived at N°50 and I lived a stone's throw away for my first 17 years)

I'm still digging...

[Val Goddard]

Thought you were on to something there, but these are the next generation. The Thomas you have born and baptised is my husband's grandfather and I have his info already. I have his brother Arthur Martin born in 1908 but I'm not sure where that came from. Either I have it wrong, or one child died and another was given the same name.

It is the previous 2 generations that I am battling with.

Any other information gladly received

Val

[Christine]

I've searched the 1861 without success but for your records this is what I've looked at:
Cope, Coup, Coupe, Cowpe, Coop and Coope in Sneinton, Sutton in Ashfield and Mansfield.

Regards, Christine

[Val Goddard]

Thanks - still a mystery!

[Christine]

When I get my eagerly awaited Archive Books 1871 Nottinghamshire Census (http://www.parishchest.com/en-gb/dept_2418.html)CD, I'll look for them there for you.

By the way, I think the Wheatsheaf was on the right hand side of Stockwell Gate going down just after Belvedere Street but I'll check.

Regards, Christine

[Val Goddard]

Thanks very much. I hope to arrange a trip to Mansfield at some time to have a look around

Val

[Susan Hume Smith]

Hi Val,

I think we have a family connection. I am connected to the Cope's by Sarah Ann Cope b. circa 1845 who was one of the children of Joseph Cope b. circa 1819 and his wife Sarah from 17 Lowdham Street, Snenton, Nottingham on the 1871 census. Joseph and Sarah also had children Joseph b. circa 1859 and Thomas born circa 1847 and Arthur born circa 1856.

This Thomas b. 1847 was an unemployed butcher on the 1871census. On the 1871 census it showed him as married but no wife was listed and he was in his parent's home. Since I couldn't find Thomas on the 1881 census I thought perhaps he had died between 1871 and 1881. The death record from 1874 Mansfield must be him. He was 27 as would be this Thomas and indeed his death was notified by his father Joseph!

In 1881 Joseph Cope still lived at 17 Lowdham Street with his son Joseph b. circa 1859 and Joseph's new wife Ada. Joseph Cope married Ada White June Q 1880 Nottingham 7b, 398.

Best Wishes, Susan

[Rod Neep]

The only hard facts I have are from Arthur's marriage certificate. He is a butcher from "belvidere" and his father was Thomas Cope - Butcher. This was October 22 1894 , marriage at parish church Mansfield. (married Elizabeth Quinton). Son Thomas was born 2/12/1897 at 13 Belvidere St, Mansfield, Arthur was Master Butcher. They were then at 42 Belvidere st in 1901 census - butcher own account working at home.
However I cannot get anything EARLIER - not Arthur's birth, nor census entries for him or Thomas Snr other than those quoted in my 5 epistles.
Grateful for any help you can give
Hmmm... this is strange....

Arthur Martin COPE shows up at 13 Belvidere St. Mansfield as a butcher in the 1900 Kelly's directory.

Other COPEs who are butchers in 1900 are:

Ernest John COPE, 24 Victoria Road, Netherfield, Nottingham
John COPE, Eastgate, Worksop

There are NO COPEs who are butchers in the 1891 Kellys Directory. So there is the conundrum.... where is Thomas COPE butcher?

A clue... although I don't know how he fits in (if at all)
in the 1888 Wright's Directory there is:
Edward HERRING, butcher, 13 Belvidere Street, Mansfield

Rod

[Rod Neep]

in 1883, Mrs Mary BARKER, butcher was at Belvidere Street.

(Wright's 1883 Directory)

In the 1881 Kelly's directory (http://www.parishchest.com/en-gb/dept_689.html), there is no COPE who was a butcher.

I am starting to think that Thomas COPE was not a butcher, or at least not in Nottinghamshire. Look to Derbyshire?

Regards
Rod

[Susan Hume Smith]

Thomas Cope b. 1847 appears in the 1871 census records twice!

In 1871, as I mentioned ref #14, and Val # 5 Thomas Cope,unemployed butcher, age 24 was at his parents (Joseph and Sarah's) house on Lowdham St., Snenton- listed as married but with no wife there.

In 1871, as Val mentioned ref# 3, Thomas Cope, potato roaster, age 24 was at Wheatsheaf Yard with his wife Mary and their 2 children.

Both these entries are clearly correct and him. The first census was done at Snenton, Nottingham. The second in Mansfield, Nottingham. Thomas was clearly visiting his parents on the day the census was done in Snenton and his father or whoever gave the family information gave his occupation as unemployed butcher as butcher must have been his usual occupation. When they did the census in Mansfield, his name was given again as this was his usual residence. (Perhaps he was back from visiting his parents or not.) He was working as a potato roaster as he had no employment as a butcher.

We have definate confirmation that this is him in EACH record thanks to Val's death reference for Thomas ref#4. Which connects Thomas to his residence in Mansfield at Wheatsheaf Yard and connects Thomas back to his father Joseph from Lowdham St. Snenton.

The 1881 census, referred to by Val # 2 is also the same family 10 years later. Thomas died in 1874 as we know and his widow Mary Cope remarried in 1876 (Basford Q3 1876 7b 205) to Joseph Denby. Mary is listed as born in Selston which is consistent with the reference to her in 1871 and the children are the correct names (first names and surname), ages and places of birth.

Arthur Martin Cope had a son named Arthur Martin Cope b. Q3 1895 Masfield 7b 109 that died age 0 in Mansfield Q2 1896 7b 52. There was another Arthur Martin Cope born Q1 1908 Mansfield 7b 170 as Val suggested ref # 9.
There was also a Ernest Martin Cope listed b. Q4 1904 Mansfield 7b 127.

Thomas Cope wouldn't show up in any directories as a butcher after July 1874 when he died at age 27. His son Arthur b.1871 may not have been a butcher yet by 1891, age 19. He is referenced as a butcher after that in 1894 on his marriage and in the 1900 directory. This sounds right. He must have started off as an assistant butcher.

Perhaps 13 Belvedre was the address of a Butcher shop with a residence above - which would explain all the butchers living there!

[Susan Hume Smith]

Joseph Cope b. c1819 and his wife Sarah married Oct 5, 1840 in the district parish church of St. Paul's in Nottingham. They both lived on West Street at the time. Joseph Cope was a Smith. Sarah whose maiden name is Mee was a Lace Mender. I haven't seen any census records earlier than the 1871. They may have still lived on West Street in 1841?.

On the 1871 census Joseph was a clockmaker. In 1881 he was listed as an Annuitant. It didn't say who he got the annuity from. On the 1871 census, besides Thomas it listed sons Arthur b. c1856 and Joseph b. 1860. Arthur became a painter. Joseph a coal miner.

On the marriage certificate between Joseph Cope and Sarah Mee. Joseph Cope's father was Thomas Cope. He was also a clock maker. Sarah Mee's father's name was blank.

Thomas Cope of Nottingham was recorded as a watchmaker at Leenside, Nott from about the 1825 to 1871 period.
I have been unable to find out anything else about him - his wife's name or siblings to Joseph.

[Susan Hume Smith]

Further to my last posting, it is interesting that Thomas and Joseph Cope of Nottingham were both clockmakers. A coincidence to the other "turret" clock maker Cope family of Nottingham?

That family was from Radford, Nottingham. George Cope b. 1831, Francis Cope b. 1845 and their brother William Cope b. 1836 or 1841 (depending on which census record you believe) were all clock makers. Another brother, Alfred, a dentist, had a son William b. c1863 Dewsbury, York who moved in with his bachelor uncles George and Francis (and their sister Ann) in Radford and also became a clock maker. He continued the family business with his descendants to present (Cope Jewellers). The father of George, Francis, William, Alfred, sister Ann and .. was William Cope b. 1800. He was a joiner and died in 1865 at Radford.

It seems like too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence to have two clockmaker Cope families in Nottingham at the same time.

I have not been able to find a connection between the two Cope families.
I have been in contact with present day Cope's from the shop in Nottingham but the are not aware of their ancestry any further back than the clock maker brothers who founded their company in 1845.

[Susan Hume Smith]

Another Mystery..

I was very disappointed when I received the marriage certificate for Joseph Cope and Sarah Mee from the GRO. They had typed in the information instead of sending a copy of the original due to poor clarity on the original from 1840. Sarah Mee's father, of particular interest, was given as a line. I have written back to the GRO asking for a copy of the original even if unclear to confirm whether Sarah Mee's father was not entered or if it was illegible.

She is of particular interest because either Sarah Mee or one or both of her parents are believed (by the family) to be from the Middle East. Sarah Mee may even have been an anglisized name. Sarah Mee was listed as being born in Nottingham on the 1871 census.

On the 1881 census, Joseph is listed as 63 years old and married but Sarah is not listed. Did she die? She may have been visiting another residence the day of the census. Usually the census would indicate W for widower if that was the case. I don't know.

Who is Sarah Mee? Any suggestions, comments or information on her or the Copes would be very welcome!

[Val Goddard]

Wow - been away in Australia for 3 weeks and come back to all this fantastic correspondence on the Cope families - am now trying to assimilate it all! The Cope family did live at 13 Belvidere st for some time as at least their first child (yet another Thomas) was born there in 1897. I was also very encouraged to see that Susan agreed with me that my Arthur Cope was the same one as the son to Joseph Cope. I still have not been able to find his birth (although looking at my notes I may have a reference for that), nor the marriage of his parents Thomas and Mary - these would hopefully give that 100% proof.

Susan I will email you and we can swap more family information.

Val

[kmdward]

Another Mystery..

She is of particular interest because either Sarah Mee or one or both of her parents are believed (by the family) to be from the Middle East. Sarah Mee may even have been an anglisized name. Sarah Mee was listed as being born in Nottingham on the 1871 census.


Who is Sarah Mee? Any suggestions, comments or information on her or the Copes would be very welcome!

MEE as a family name appears a number of times in various Notts records, so I would not be to sure that they came from the Middle East.
1809 24 April John Voce married Sarah Mee at St Mary's Nottingham. could be a relation.

[Susan Hume Smith]

Thank you for your comments. I'm not sure of anything to do with Sarah Mee though I am pretty sure someone from that line was from the middle east. Besides the family stories, I have a photo of Sarah's grand-daughter, our great-grandmother and she has a definate middle eastern look to her. Also, the family used to eat tabouleh?!

[Susan Hume Smith]

Another Mystery..

I was very disappointed when I received the marriage certificate for Joseph Cope and Sarah Mee from the GRO. They had typed in the information instead of sending a copy of the original due to poor clarity on the original from 1840. Sarah Mee's father, of particular interest, was given as a line. I have written back to the GRO asking for a copy of the original even if unclear to confirm whether Sarah Mee's father was not entered or if it was illegible.



Have heard back from the GRO. They are unable to send a copy of the original but confirm that no information was entered for the bride's father.

[Susan Hume Smith]

I have found the 1861 census record.

They were at 53 Red Lion Street, St. Mary's Nottingham.
Joseph Cope head 42 clock maker b. Nottingham as are all
Sarah wife 46 lace mender
Hariott daughter unmarried 19 lace mender
Sarah Ann daughter unmarried 16 lace mender
Thomas son 14 lace roller
Emma daughter 11 scholar
Arthur son 5
Joseph som 18 months
Emily granddaughter 16 months

The mystery in this entry is the granddaughter Emily. Whose child is she?

[lurch]

Reading all the activity on Copes I wondered if any of you could help me in a quest to find my g.g. grandfather's eldest son's birth, c1858 Sneinton, Nottingham. I have searched St Catherine's index several times, parish records at Nott. archives (they only had records on one sneinton church), marriage records for his father Edwin Cope and wife No. 1 to no avail. I have not been able to find Edwin or his son Thos Edwin(then 3) on 1861 census so no clues to where he maybe have been living before wife No. 1 died. Also missing on 1861 census was Edwin's father Thomas Cope. These were family of lace makers, and had had several homes around Nottingham, Kirkby in Ashfield and Tottenham Middlesex, so travelled quite a bit. Edwin appears back on 1871 census as does young Tom (who never married himself), so I have never been able to find wife No. 1 and it bugs me somewhat and does leave the picture incomplete.
Any suggestions ??

[SarahAnn]

Hello Lurch

|banghead||banghead||banghead|

I'm researching the same Edwin & Thomas - having same problems!!!

Can find Edwin everywhere but 1861 Census!!!! I'm thinking he was with a family and possibly recorded as Edwin ditto / do !!!

Will be glad to compare / exchange notes

Sarah Ann

[janbooth]

From the Notts FHS Baptismal Index CD:

30 June 1818 at Nottingham St Nicholas Joseph COPE son Thomas & Mary, Chesterfield Street, Clock Maker

There are also the following children baptised to Thomas & Mary COPE who could perhaps be siblings:

15 January 1811 at Nottingham St Mary Richard COPE son Thomas & Mary
23 October 1821 at Nottingham St Mary Elizabeth COPE daughter Thomas & Mary, Crossland St, Clockmaker

and this looks like Thomas and wife Mary in the 1841 census of Nottingham St Mary:

HO107/869/10, folio 15, page 21
Leen Side

Thomas COPE 60 Clock M
Mary do 55
Elizabeth do 20 Lace Cutter
George do 25 Bobbin & Carriage M

All shown as being born outside the county. And bingo - this may give you a clue as to where they originated from according to the 1851 census:

HO107/2133, folio 298, page 1
Sussex Street, Nottingham St Peter

Elizabeth SANSOM Head Mar 27 Shopkeeper Notts Nottingham St Mary
Mary COPE Mother W 70 Retired Watchmakers Widow Staffords Bromley
George do Brother U 43 Smallware Dealer do Uttoxeter
Ann BRETT Servant U 14 House Servant Notts Nottingham St Mary

And there is an extracted marriage on the IGI at Abbots Bromley on 298 October 1803 of a Thomas COPE and a Mary BIRCH - a possiblity perhaps given Mary's birthplace on the 1851??

HTH

Janet

[janbooth]

Again from the Notts FHS Baptismal CD:

28 May 1882 at Mansfield Joseph COPE son Thomas & Mary, Wheatsheaf Yard, Labourer
28 May 1882 at Mansfield Arthur COPE son Thomas & Mary, Wheatsheaf Yard, Labourer
These are the only COPE baptisms shown as Wheatsheaf Yard on my cd.

Looking for baptisms at Belvidere Street, there are these:

23 July 1895 at Mansfield Arthur Martin COPE son Arthur Martin & Elizabeth, 13 Belvidere St, Butcher
Born 2 Dec 1897, bap 7 June 1898 Thomas Martin COPE son Arthur Martin & Elizabeth, 13 Belvidere St, Butcher

There does seem to be a whole lot of Mansfield baptisms missing on my cd and unfortunately I think they coincide with the period you are interested in.

Have you tried to find Arthur Martin snr's birth registration??

Janet

[Val Goddard]

There are of course 2 Thomas and Mary's here. The first couple lived at Leen Side in 1841. I have 3 children George, Joseph and Elizabeth - and was interested to see details of the baptisms which I didn't have (I haven't done any research on this side of the family for about a year).
Joseph married Sarah Mee and one of their children Thomas (1846) married Mary Martin. This Thomas died young (1874) see the postings at the begining - was it really 5 years ago!!
They had Arthur Martin Cope born about 1872 but I have never been able to find his birth. He married Elizabeth Quinton and hence you get the details listed in the last posting. Arthur born Jun 1896 sadly died May 1896.
I can give further details if people will find them useful
Val