Ecclesiastical Questions 17th century

[Sue Simonich]

Hello Chatters:

Well, I have had the unfortunate experience of loosing a post I added last night. I thought it was saved, but this morning it is missing. If it turns up and appears to be redundant, please forgive me.

My post asked a lot of questions about The Church of England, for which I have no experience, though I have looked at their website and have been able to ascertain some of the answers I needed.

In general, I am looking for more information about records that would have been kept by a rector in the 17th century. I am unsure of the duties of such an office and would like to know more.

1. What are/were the duties of a rector?
2. Where would one find the records penned by each rector?
3. Did the rector live in the rectory, or would parsonage be a more appropriate term in the 17th century?
4. Were they affiliated with an Abbey at this time or did the English Reformation completely cancel out the old conventions?

SPECIFICALLY, I am looking for information on 17th century rector of Symondsbury, Rev. Walter Newburgh, who graduated from Oxford in 1624. He held the office until his death in 1631. His grandmother had apparently purchased the “advowson” for him. Some question of ownership is implied in the history of this family. In what I have been able to learn, ownership of an advowson was often passed down with ownership of a manor. Is this true in all cases?

Rev. Walter was affiliated with Rev. Whiteway, who masterminded the immigration from England to New England, by the Puritans.

Thanks as always for your assistance. |angel| ~Sue

[Geoffers]

1. What are/were the duties of a rector?

What follows is a very brief precis, which I hope makes sense - I would stand to be corrected by someone who is actually involved in the church and better knows what has always seemed a rather complicated state of affairs.

Rectors were incumbent priests of a parish and they recieved all the Great Tithes - customary offerings and dues. He would be responsible for the upkeep of the chancel and rectory and providing vestments.

Over time, large institutions such as monasteries took over benefices and in effect became the rector.

In turn monasteries (as rectors) then appointed a priest as deputy - that priest received the lesser or 'vicarial' tithes and so became know as the Vicar.

After the reformation, Lay Rectors took over the duties of many of the monasteries and this included the right to nominate the Vicar (with approval of the Bishop).

A Parson was originally the title for a rector.

The priest of a parish would be responsible for performing baptisms, marriages, burials, etc - maintaining the parish registers, looking after the spiritual welfare of his parishioners. There may be other duties, some local to a parish or area.


2. Where would one find the records penned by each rector?

Mostly in a County Record Office (Parish Registers which can contain lots of interesing notes on the parish holdings, tithes, collections, gossip and other stuff). Surviving correspondence with the Bishop would presumably be held by the Bishop's Office. Some parish priests kept journals which can make interesting reading.


3. Did the rector live in the rectory, or would parsonage be a more appropriate term in the 17th century?

Not something I've ever considered - but presumably dependent on the set up in the parish?


4. Were they affiliated with an Abbey at this time?

Not following the reformation


In what I have been able to learn, ownership of an advowson was often passed down with ownership of a manor. Is this true in all cases?

I don't believe so, for example some university colleges held the presentative advowson for a parish without holding the manor. I have a vague memory that when a manor held the advowson it was called an advowson appendant?

[Peter Goodey]

Don't forget that much of the 17th century in England was a period of social, military and religious upheaval. Many priests flouted the authority of the bishops. Many congregations unseated priests whose political and religious views were not to their taste.

[Sue Simonich]

Thanks so much for the answers. I have, all morning, been trying to read the Lambeth Palace Library's web site. Woe is me! There is so much there and so little I understand.

The one thing I haven't been able to determine is where the Parish of Symondsbury now seems to be located. Looking at the The Church of England web site, I don't see at all! Surely, I am missing something here.

Would the Record office be that of Dorset?

|bowdown| Thank you both! I appreciate having more experienced researchers to talk to. If anyone needs advice about U.S. records, I am happy to oblige. I am out of my element in the records of England.

Sue

[Mutley]

This does not really answer your question regarding Symondsbury but it is mentioned on the Dorset page and Genuki is a good site for help in locating records and parishes. You may find it useful.

http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/genuki/DOR/parishes.html

[Geoffers]

where the Parish of Symondsbury

See Mutley's reply above, GENUKI is a good site to have a browse around - it's a similar sort of thing to the USGENWEB.

There are loads of online maps to help you locate places in the UK - ordnancesurvey.co.uk, streetmap.co.uk, multimap.com, old-maps, etc.

Symondsbury is near Bridport, close to the South Coast. It is in Dorset

In case you aren't aware of it, a good online catalogue to many record centres in the UK is Access to Archives (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/advanced-search.aspx?tab=0&QueryText=) (A2A) The link is to the simple search engine, try just typing in Symondsbury and see what you get.


When the results are displayed, look across to the right of the screen and you'll see some links to narrow down the results.

When you look at A2A you'll see two tabs, one is for an advanced search - click on that and you get some more options for searching.

If you are interested, your ol'bor's will is available from documentsonline
Walter NEWBURGH (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=947205&queryType=1&resultcount=1)

[JenniLl]

Symondsbury, the registers date from 1558 and are deposited at the Dorset Record Office. There are copies in SOG.

Jenni

[Sue Simonich]

Thanks one and all for your kind help. I DID go and get that will. I am having a devil of a time reading it. I think I need a glass of wine, maybe that will help.

I am also checking out the other two suggestions that were posted. Thanks so much. Any other suggestion are always appreciated.:cool:

[Geoffers]

Thanks one and all for your kind help. I DID go and get that will. I am having a devil of a time reading it. I think I need a glass of wine, maybe that will help.

Documentsonline will have given you a URL to download the will, it remains valid for 56 days, if you post the link on this thread I'm sure that someone will have a go at helping to interpret the document.

[Sue Simonich]

Geoffers, you ARE the tuch typist extraodinaire! Thanks so much for the offer of help. The wine didn't help. |computer| It would be interesting to see how much of it I have gotten right. T he last old will I trascribed was of the18th century, and the script was somewhat better.

I spent some time on the palaeography site and learned quite a bit. I have worked on it for several hours today. Would it be okay to post what I have here along with the URL for the original? We all might get a good laugh at what I have come up with. :D

[Sue Simonich]

Seems I exceeded the time limit for editing the last message, as I went to find the URL - which is

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/download.asp?T=1580864&S=I/09/01531170P&E=goldsage%40aol%2Ecom

Let me know if it is appropriate to put my interpretation of the document (filled with lots of blank spaces) up here on the thread. ~Sue

[Geoffers]

Hello Sue, the will reads as follows.

Where words are unclear they appear in round brackets with a question mark, unclear letters replaced by full stops , thus (.....?)

Where the actual spelling of a word makes its meaning unclear, I hve put it in square brackets with my interpretation afterwords, thus [mediacon = mediation]

As is common, there is no punctuation in the will. I have added to occasional full stop to try and make it a little easier to read. I have kept to the same number of words per line.

I Walter NEWBURGH of Symondsbury in the
Countie of Dorset Clerke being sicke in bodie but of good and perfect memorie thankes
bee therefore to God doe make and ordayne this my last Will and Testament in maner
and forme following revoking all former Wills by mee made whatsoever. Impris
for my soule I bequeath it into the hands of God hopeing onely to bee saved by the
merits and [mediacon = mediation] of Jesus Christ And my bodie to be buried in the chancel
of Symondsbury aforesaid. Item I make Executor of my said will in trust to the use
of my sonne John NEWBURGH, Sir Walter EARLE of Charborow in the Countie of
Dorset knight, John BROWNE of Frampton in the said countie Esquire, Christopher
EARLE of the Middle Temple, London Counseller at law and John BROWNE sonne of
the foresaid John BROWNE and Student in the Middle Temple aforesaid gent. Item

continued.........

[Geoffers]

part 2

I give to my love my wife Jane NEWBURGH besides her joyntture already conveyed unto
her as much of my household stuff plate and bedding after it is inventoryed as shall
amount to the some of One Hundred Pounds to be chosen by her. Item my Hall and
lands tenements and hererditaments with all and singular their appurtenances with the
rents remainders Revercions and [secuires = securities?] thereof and thereto belonging situate lying
and being within the said countie of Dorset aforesaid except such and for much of my
said lands and tenements as are formerly conveyed and assured for use and benefit
of my said wife during her life and after my said sonne to be by them sould together
with all and singular my goods and chattels household stuffe plate books and corne within
the realme of England except for much thereof as is formerly given unto my wife for payment
of my debts and legacies the educacion and maintenance of my children and for raising of such
porcions for my daughter Elizabeth and for any other child if wife now got with any as

continued.........

[Geoffers]

part 3

to my said executors shall seeme meete and for defraying all other charges which may grow
and accrew by [ecason = occasion] of the wardship of my said sonne if any shall happen. And of the
performance of this my last Will and Testament The remainder of the said land as shall
bee unsold or of such money as shall bee made by the sale of the said land and goods over and
above the charges abovenamed to goe to my sonne and heire John NEWBURGH. Item I
give unto old Edward (HORSFORD?) and his wife who have been ancient servants to my father
and my self Four Pounds apiece to be paid unto them within three months after the day
of my death provided the said Edward (HORSFORD?) make a true and [iust = just] attempt unto my

[end of page]

continued.........

[Geoffers]

part 4.........

said executor before they said tyme of what money or goods hee hath of myne in his hands. Item I give
unto the poor of the parish of Symondsborow aforesaid Fifteene Pounds and to the poor of
the towne of Bridpord Tenne Pounds And to the poore of Allington Forty Shillings And to ye
poore of Chedworke Forty Shillings And to the poor of Netherbury Three Pounds. The said
severall somes to bee imployed and distributed by my said executors according to their discrecion.

continued...........

[Geoffers]

part 5..........

Lastly for my funeral expences the consideracions of my other servants and bestowing any more
or other part of my estate to charitable uses or for paymt of any annuities which are by me
due to any. I doe (refer?) those things wholly to the discrecion of my said executors to doe and pay
therein what they shall see [iust = just] cause for according to myne ability And is wittnes thereof I
have hereunto sett my hand and seale the twenty sixt day of May in the yeare of our Lord God
One Thousand Six Hundred Thirty One / Walter NEWBURGH signed sealed and published
by the said Walter NEWBURGH as his last Will and Testament in the presence of
John STEPHENS, John (STARE?), John WHITE, James MANTELL, William (C.BER?)John
CLIFFORD


The last bit in Latin is just that probate was granted at London

[Sue Simonich]

Geoffers, you are such a gem! Thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy day to help me with this. Much of what you could see in the will, was somewhat the same as what I came up with, but you filled in some of the more important words that I just couldn't get.

This will is rather interesting, in that only John Newburgh, Walter's heir, was mentioned. The flavor of the will seems to hint at Jane's pregnancy. Sometime before his death Walter and Jane had a another son also named Walter. So the will must have been written during what was probably considered a life threatening illness.

After Walter senior's death in June of 1631, his month old son, was named the "infant executor" of his great uncle William's will in London. Of course, this was done under the jurisdiction of his mother Jane who was then a widow and probably with the jurisprudence of Walter Sen.'s executors. All were knights, gentlemen or clergy.

Correct me if you think I am wrong, but this looks like an opportunistic move by baby Walter's mother Jane. One would think that if "uncle William" who incidentally was unmarried and a lawyer, had made his will long in advance, there would be no call for an unborn child to be the executor. This far down the time line it looks fishy - would you agree?

Does the wording of Walter's will suggest to you that there may have been other children that needed care, but were not mentioned by name?

Three of the men who were acting as Walter's executors were also involved in the colonization of Massachusetts between 1630-40. The Erle family were intermarried with the Newberry and the Strode lines.

[Geoffers]

This will is rather interesting, in that only John Newburgh, Walter's heir, was mentioned.

Well there is his wife Jane who has "her joyntture already conveyed"
There is also "my daughter Elizabeth";
and as you point out about his wife any other child "my wife now got with"


Sometime before his death Walter and Jane had a another son also named Walter.

The will suggests Jane is pregnant.


After Walter senior's death in June of 1631, his month old son, was named the "infant executor" of his great uncle William's will in London.

Mmmm, that's not something I've come across before.


Correct me if you think I am wrong, but this looks like an opportunistic move by baby Walter's mother Jane.

A widowed mother would definitely be looking after her own interests; and those of her yong child. Unfortunately, nles some private papers have survived what we are left with is reading between the lines from the likes of this will and any recorded events thereafter.


Does the wording of Walter's will suggest to you that there may have been other children that needed care, but were not mentioned by name?

Not immediately, I would expect any other children to be named; even married daughters were just given a passing mention.

It's all interesting stuff. Perhaps a search of TNA's catalogue or Access to Archives might reveal more documents to provide background to events.

Let me know if you need help with any other wills.

[Sue Simonich]

I am finding this arm of the Newburgh family was somewhat involved with early nobility, i.e. ancient barony and the earls of Warwick; but in this more modern chapter they are showing themselves as great adventurers.

Walter's will reveals some interesting connections, especially to the Puritan group who immigrated to New England in the 1630's.
At the end of Rev. Newburghs will it shows witnesses. Most are significant to the Dorchester Adventurers, as are the trustees. They are as follows.

1. SIR WALTER EARLE - listed as a Dorchester Adventurer.
The EARLE’s INTERMARRIED WITH THE STRODE FAMILY.Catherine Strode
was Walter Newburgh’s first wife who died, though the Strodes are never
mentioned in this, Walter's will.
2. CHRISTOPHER EARLE - also a Dorchester Adventurer and immigrant
to New England.
3. SIR JOHN BROWNE - Jane Browne’s father and his family were also
in New England early. She also had a brother, who I believe went to New
England, but returned. Jane's son John Newburgh served as executor to
his will.
4. JOHN STEPHENS - was in New England with Thomas Newberry,
Walter's cousin.
5. JOHN WHITE - WAS THE MAIN FRAMER of the plan for
COLONIZATION OF THE NEW WORLD and a close friend of Walter.
6. JOHN CULLIFORD - was an uncle or cousin to Walter. Walter’s
mother was Elizabeth Culliford. She attained the advowson to the
Symondsbury position that he held with the church.
7. The Odber name was brought into the family when Elizabeth
Culliford remarried Robert Odber after her first husband’s death. Her son
Walter (the writer of this will) only outlived her by 2 years.

The implication of an earlier child rides on a hunch I have about Walter's first marriage to Catherine STRODE, daughter of Sir Richard Strode. Walter and Catherine were married Sept. 28, 1624. She died Nov. 11, 1625. During that time frame, one could reasonably conjecture a full term pregnancy took place, from which Catherine may have died.

What is extremely interesting is the ERLE family intermarried (mentioned above as exeuctors)with the Strode family. Yet, the Strodes are not mentioned per se. I have lately learned that at some point there was a 100 year family feud that raged in the Strode family. It was an event which could complicate the raising of a child if family relations were strained among specific members, especially if there is a step mother involved. Of course, this is all just conjecture, and as you said, an interpretation between the lines.

An earlier Richard Strode of the above lines, married Frances Cromwell, daughter of Lord Cromwell. So, can you see where I feel intrigue might be entering this?

I am currently reading a book written by Phillpa Gregory about King Henry VIII and his relationships with the Howard and Boleyn families. As I am sure you are aware the Boleyn and Howard families were forceful in the politics of the Tudors and considered themselves as ONE INSEPARABLE FAMILY.

My point here is, if one side of the Strode family turned against the other, then certainly it is possible that some details in the family drama are missing by design.

[Geoffers]

Walter's will reveals some interesting connections, especially to the Puritan group who immigrated to New England in the 1630's.

Your reseach hints at this being a close-knit group


The implication of an earlier child rides on a hunch I have about Walter's first marriage to Catherine STRODE, daughter of Sir Richard Strode. Walter and Catherine were married Sept. 28, 1624. She died Nov. 11, 1625

Do the registers survive for the parish where they lived? The child of a cleric would have been baptized. By whom might the child have been raised? - if she/he survived? I do find it difficult to envisage an elder child - especially a son - from the first marriage being totally disinherited. had such an event occurred then the family of the deceased wife would be likely to have challenged the will in order to protect the interests of the child.

[Sue Simonich]

I hope to be able locate more on the so called "feud" to see if it yields any other clues. I would think there would be some kind of evidence as well, because there are numerous suits of one sort and another between different people in these families. I'll let you know if anything else turns up. In the meantime, have a great weekend.|wave|